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Dreeepa Amarr German Space Factory	Posted - 2010.12.14 13:40:00 - [1] Edited by: Dreeepa on 14/12/2010 13:46:59 Edited by: Dreeepa on 14/12/2010 13:46:32 Edited by: Dreeepa on 14/12/2010 13:41:29 Hi, I ve brought some new friends to EvE and it is so amazing how much problems they have understanding things. Aggression Counter, GCC, loot wreck, smartbomb in high sec, shoot large objects that etc etc you know the stuff... Now I ve been thinking how I handled that stuff, and I came to the conclusion that it wasnt the game that helped me understand it, but it was friends and corp mates I was playing with back in those days. The game really has no good "signs & feedback" mechanic to provide the information needed by a noob. There is that pop up window, yes, but you dont really know what exactly you may do and what not. It should be obvious before trying it out. Same goes for combat mechanic. No noob understands tracking. They shoot at a frig, but dont hit. That makes them confused. They need other players to explain that mechanic to them instead of the game clearly showing them where the problem is. After all, no one would expect a future space pew pew turret to not be able to turn fast enough to track a spaceship that orbits at 0.1rad/s. (Its really ridicolous from a "believability" point of view). Or you should ve heard their frustration when I told them that they have to right click on their weapons and navigate through a windows full of data just to see their optimal range for their actual ammo type. And that they have to check it over and over again, when changing weapons. Why is such an essential information no presented on the first layer of the interface but hidden inside menues on 2nd and 3rd layer??? EvE makes noobs go "wow" in the start, nice graphics, atmosphere, vast univerese etc. but after a while they get ruened away because the game is so unecessarily complicated. It is complex, yes, thats a good thing, but its also complicated, and thats a bad thing. At least if you dont have explanations for it. EvE is online for heck how many years now? And the game is making god knows how much money for CCP with all the GTCs and plexes etc. Now I am wondering, when does accessibility and usability improve? When will the game meet the quality standards you have in so many other games. Eve still feels like an indy game with tons and tons of stuff added on top of a very fragile basement. Most of the issue could easily be identified by playtests with noobs and standard PC gamers (that are into games but not into EvE). Do you do playtests at all? EvE could be so much more successful if it wouldn turn away people with its extremely bad accesibility and usability. Invest here! Refactor the UI. Redo signs & feedback. Bring EvE to the level it deserves or do you really want to wait until the main reason EvE is so successfull (niche market for this kind of game with no real alternative) will be obsolete due to other space MMOs coming out? ____________________________________ touch the legacy code, touch the legacy code!!!
Caldariftw123	Posted - 2010.12.14 14:18:00 - [2] Edited by: Caldariftw123 on 14/12/2010 14:20:14 TBH all that information is available in wikis and forums etc., what do you want to happen, first time someone logs in they are confronted with an unbelievable wall of text describing everything that happens in EVE and why? The wiki and EVE site is where all the information is based, and it's as accessible as anything else. It'd be like joining any other game and clicking something not knowing what you are doing .. well did you read the manual??? No, that'll be why you don't understand it then. Fact is there is so much to EVE, so much info that it's not possible to put it all on the first page to be 'accessible' - the range as your example, you want that on the first page? What about the damage type dealt, and the penalties to capacitor or range it might have, and the bonuses, and the weight, and the volume .. you want it ALL on the first page? Along with all the other info? 1 massive giant page? It makes no sense.
Rek Seven	Posted - 2010.12.14 14:38:00 - [3] Edited by: Rek Seven on 14/12/2010 14:42:47 I've recently stated playing eve and have to agree that there are may problems for new users. Until recently I was a console player so perhaps i have been spoiled but the user interface in this game if probably the worst i have experienced and there is next to no hand holding in this game. What ends up happening is that payer is forced to look to external sources like eft, eve survival guide and forums, etc just to learn how to play the game. This completely breaks immersion. People will tell you that this game is a sand box and you just have to create your own game, but how do you play in a sand box if you don't know what a bucket and spade are?! Eve is not that complex once you get to grips with it and a lot of the game could be explained though a few short videos... Not the walls of text you face in the tutorials.
Eastman Color	Posted - 2010.12.14 14:44:00 - [4] Originally by: Dreeepa it wasnt the game that helped me understand it, but it was friends and corp mates I was playing with back in those days. I stopped reading here because... you know... eve being difficult to get into is a good thing if it forces people to play an mmo as a mmo rather than soloing to lvl80 before finding "friends" to go raiding with.
heheheh Phoenix Club	Posted - 2010.12.14 14:44:00 - [5] It has improved. There are tutorials and stuff now, back when i was new, i did one mission and that was it, i was left in space.
Dreeepa Amarr German Space Factory	Posted - 2010.12.14 15:07:00 - [6] I see the improvement too, of course, like the help windows and tutorial missions, but it is still lightyears away from what you d expect from a game of this scope. ____________________________________ touch the legacy code, touch the legacy code!!!
YERMO	Posted - 2010.12.14 15:17:00 - [7] Originally by: Eastman Color Originally by: Dreeepa it wasnt the game that helped me understand it, but it was friends and corp mates I was playing with back in those days. I stopped reading here because... you know... eve being difficult to get into is a good thing if it forces people to play an mmo as a mmo rather than soloing to lvl80 before finding "friends" to go raiding with. huh?
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2010.12.14 15:36:00 - [8] Originally by: Dreeepa Now I ve been thinking how I handled that stuff, and I came to the conclusion that it wasnt the game that helped me understand it, but it was friends and corp mates I was playing with back in those days. That, or learn the hard way. Working as intended. - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen.
Corvus Dove Caldari Event Horizon Plc. Consortium.	Posted - 2010.12.14 15:43:00 - [9] Originally by: YERMO Originally by: Eastman Color Originally by: Dreeepa it wasnt the game that helped me understand it, but it was friends and corp mates I was playing with back in those days. I stopped reading here because... you know... eve being difficult to get into is a good thing if it forces people to play an mmo as a mmo rather than soloing to lvl80 before finding "friends" to go raiding with. huh? He's referring to WoWgaming. Part of what makes EVE a consistent #1 game is that if you try to play it like one does WoW, you spend a lot of time in a pod and upset. However, I do think when you get into a new ship class, a PvE tutorial of sorts should be an option. Note, I said option. I, for one, would like to see bombers used in PvE for...bombing. Not speed-tanking and torp dumping...bombing. It'd drag players into 0.0 a little and lead to a lot less of bombs just spinning uselessly because the player thought it moved on its own and lost a mil. That, and one time I literally ran into a bomb at a warpin point because the bomber was killed launching there while stopped. Granted, CCP did take away Mines because the only way you could make them work right was to lag the server out, but finding old armed bombs with the front end of a battlecruiser wasn't my idea of a fix. ------------------------------------ I like long walks, a good book before bed, and human entrails served cold with a side order of scrap metal.
sarah mcjimmy	Posted - 2010.12.14 15:48:00 - [10] Surely this is the deciding factor in what makes a good player 'good'. All the information you need is there, but how that information is digested is entirely up to the player. Also, with the amount of information available, I think it brings people together - discussing fits, damage types, stats etc etc. Rather than being simply spoon fed and going solo. Then failing badly.

Dreeepa Amarr German Space Factory	Posted - 2010.12.14 15:49:00 - [11] Using player interaction as a justification for bad accessibility is a poor excuse. Is that how you do game design? Lets make a really bad interface with lots of hidden mechanics, so people start interacting with each other? Come on... honestly... ____________________________________ touch the legacy code, touch the legacy code!!!
SkinSin	Posted - 2010.12.14 15:53:00 - [12] the OP does have a point though... You shouldn't have to rely on out of game tools for in-game information. To have to do so, is to recognise a failure on the in-game design (or not necessarily a failure, but something that needs to be improved).
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.14 15:54:00 - [13] Edited by: Furb Killer on 14/12/2010 15:54:58 Originally by: Dreeepa Using player interaction as a justification for bad accessibility is a poor excuse. Is that how you do game design? Lets make a really bad interface with lots of hidden mechanics, so people start interacting with each other? Come on... honestly... This pretty much, the people justifying horrible UI and similar elements because it keeps people out should reconsider if they really think that. One i had fairly often: Noobie goes to belt, shoots rats. Noobie sees agression countdown. Noobie: What does agression countdown mean? Is concord going to kill me/What did I do wrong? Me: It means they got 15 minutes during which they are allowed to shoot you. Noobie: But dont rats always shoot me? Me: Yes... Noobie: Then what is the timer for? Me: :CCP:
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2010.12.14 15:55:00 - [14] Originally by: Dreeepa Using player interaction as a justification for bad accessibility is a poor excuse. Is that how you do game design? Lets make a really bad interface with lots of hidden mechanics, so people start interacting with each other? Come on... honestly... Part of getting into this game was always to learn things the hard way, and to take the consequences of your actions. Remove the tough learning, remove consequences, and this game lost its soul. Noone "needs" to get in touch with a corporation to learn things, that's the easy way of getting to know EVE. There's players out here who played "solo" while learning. And they still do, to some extent. Chribba springs to mind. Myself have spent half my time in EVE more or less solo. Whatever mistakes we do, we pay for, and that's just as it should be. Few things give me a bigger smile than to see new players leaving their start system and start fire on the first player they see, just to lose their ships to CONCORD.. but then ask why it happened, and keep moving on from there. - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen.
Brian Ballsack	Posted - 2010.12.14 15:57:00 - [15] Originally by: SkinSin the OP does have a point though... You shouldn't have to rely on out of game tools for in-game information. You dont, there is an in game browser which leads you straight to many many sources of information. I love how eve does not hold your hand and explain every single little thing that happens, like that blizzard crap does. It is merely a filter to keep out the brainless and the lazy, and it works well. If you cant be bothered to read up stuff to find out what to do, you definatly do not have enough patience for eve.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.12.14 16:04:00 - [16] "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." People should be taught how to learn how to play, not taught how to play. - I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes
Dreeepa Amarr German Space Factory	Posted - 2010.12.14 16:24:00 - [17] Its no contradiction to have a steep learning curve yet keeping the UI to the point. One more example: when the player is in combat he shouldnt be fiddling around with entering numbers (orbit distance) but instead have stuff like that available. Like defining presets for your different weapons. One's optimal is at 6.5, another one's is at 13.5 yet another one is at 21km. So the procedure during combat for a new player understanding the mechanics of distance and orbitting is more than cumbersome: -Right click on the weapon -Select "show info" -Select 2nd tab -Scroll all the way down -Read optimal range -Close window (except for people with big TFTs maybe) -Right click on the orbit icon -Select custom distance -Enter distance by hand -Press orbit button now the situation changes, you need another ammo/lense, so things continue: -Right click on the weapon -Select new ammo/lense type -Right click on the weapon -Select "show info" -Select 2nd tab -Scroll all the way down -Read optimal range -Close window (except for people with big TFTs maybe) -Right click on the orbit icon -Select custom distance -Enter distance by hand -Press orbit button Add to this that all menues and buttons are rather small in size, which means the probability of misclicks is notable. This is just one example of how a rather simple action in a very core game mechanic (combat) is applied. Other areas of the game need similar tedious navigation to get your task done (being a trader for years, I can tell you alot of storys about the market interface) Now really ask yourself: Is this helping the game? Does the game profit from this? Is it a good thing to have complicated navigation. Reasoning with "pseudo-elite" stuff like "keeps the idiots away" really is too simple. In my eyes this is a terrible way to let the player handle combat and it makes things unnecessarily cumbersome. ____________________________________ touch the legacy code, touch the legacy code!!!
sarah mcjimmy	Posted - 2010.12.14 20:58:00 - [18] Setting different presets to weapons would be a good idea. However, in the absence of this, I find it's a good idea to actually check the ranges etc BEFORE going in to combat. Once I've done that, I manually write down (by hand) the required information thus taking out roughly 50% of the steps. Right click orbit, set distance, click orbit. Not that hard surely?
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.12.14 21:02:00 - [19] Originally by: Dreeepa -Right click on the weapon -Select "show info" -Select 2nd tab -Scroll all the way down -Read optimal range -Close window (except for people with big TFTs maybe) -Right click on the orbit icon -Select custom distance -Enter distance by hand -Press orbit button Sounds like they'll get to know their ammo/guns quite fast. - I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes
Heimdal Galplen Minmatar Forced Entry Industries	Posted - 2010.12.14 21:06:00 - [20] It's already miles better than what it used to be. Only takes a little bit of reading and research and a willingness to tough it out for a little while. So HTFU or GTFO

Dreeepa Amarr German Space Factory	Posted - 2010.12.14 22:22:00 - [21] Listen to yourself. Defending a totally laborious navigation with such silly arguments. ____________________________________ touch the legacy code, touch the legacy code!!!
Rek Seven	Posted - 2010.12.14 22:23:00 - [22] Originally by: sarah mcjimmy Setting different presets to weapons would be a good idea. However, in the absence of this, I find it's a good idea to actually check the ranges etc BEFORE going in to combat. Once I've done that, I manually write down (by hand) the required information thus taking out roughly 50% of the steps. Right click orbit, set distance, click orbit. Not that hard surely? Really? Correct me if i am wrong but this is a game where you play as a character that is wired into a ship which he controls with his mind... Whipping out a note pad and a hb pencil doesn't really fit imo. I'm sure that when you have played this game for a couple years the controls seem like second nature but after 6 months, i can tell you they still feel horrible slow and inefficiently to me. If CCP don't what to invest in redesigning the interface, then they should make it fully customisable.
sarah mcjimmy	Posted - 2010.12.14 22:48:00 - [23] Originally by: Rek Seven Originally by: sarah mcjimmy Setting different presets to weapons would be a good idea. However, in the absence of this, I find it's a good idea to actually check the ranges etc BEFORE going in to combat. Once I've done that, I manually write down (by hand) the required information thus taking out roughly 50% of the steps. Right click orbit, set distance, click orbit. Not that hard surely? Really? Correct me if i am wrong but this is a game where you play as a character that is wired into a ship which he controls with his mind... Whipping out a note pad and a hb pencil doesn't really fit imo. I'm sure that when you have played this game for a couple years the controls seem like second nature but after 6 months, i can tell you they still feel horrible slow and inefficiently to me. If CCP don't what to invest in redesigning the interface, then they should make it fully customisable. I've been playing the game for about 3 months now. Sure, the UI has some niggles here and there but over-all, I find it does the job. Also, I sit at a desk when using my PC. On my desk are multiple items and two of these items are a pen and paper so they are to hand. I generally write things down that may be of importance to me. It seems it's turning in to a battle of laziness - Boo-hoo... I have to write something down or I have to think about looking something up before going in to a fight.
Yuki Kulotsuki	Posted - 2010.12.14 22:49:00 - [24] Everything you're talking about is all there in the manual. Jeez. Originally by: CCP Lemur THIS IS GOD: ... IF YOU HAVE ANY MORE REQUESTS I'M AVAILABLE SUNDAY FROM 10:30 TO 12:00 TO RECEIVE YOUR PRAYERS.
Spurty Caldari D00M. Northern Coalition.	Posted - 2010.12.14 22:56:00 - [25] Edited by: Spurty on 14/12/2010 22:56:16 Originally by: Crumplecorn "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." I thought the EVE versions was: "Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Put a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Wouldn't hurt for starter agents to offer missions that train up the player, so when they graduate, they have a clue. Or, EVE Uni ;0 Hoppit!
Rek Seven	Posted - 2010.12.14 23:07:00 - [26] Originally by: sarah mcjimmy I've been playing the game for about 3 months now. Sure, the UI has some niggles here and there but over-all, I find it does the job. Also, I sit at a desk when using my PC. On my desk are multiple items and two of these items are a pen and paper so they are to hand. I generally write things down that may be of importance to me. It seems it's turning in to a battle of laziness - Boo-hoo... I have to write something down or I have to think about looking something up before going in to a fight. It's nice that you have a pen and a piece of paper on your desk but i don't even have a desk... It's not about laziness, it's about making is easier for people to play and have fun with eve instead of forcing them to use ineffincine tools do do simple jobs. Some of the replies in this thread equate to saying: "dictionaries exist so why don't you know how to spell every word in existence?"
sarah mcjimmy	Posted - 2010.12.14 23:19:00 - [27] Originally by: Rek Seven Some of the replies in this thread equate to saying: "dictionaries exist so why don't you know how to spell every word in existence?" don't be silly. i don't know of any dictionary that has every word in existence in it
Planktal Gallente Kenshao Industries Galactic Acqisition Specialists	Posted - 2010.12.14 23:28:00 - [28] Originally by: Dreeepa Or you should ve heard their frustration when I told them that they have to right click on their weapons and navigate through a windows full of data just to see their optimal range for their actual ammo type. And that they have to check it over and over again, when changing weapons. Why is such an essential information no presented on the first layer of the interface but hidden inside menues on 2nd and 3rd layer??? I agree on this, I wouldn't mind if the current optimal, falloff and tracking speed was part of the pop-up when you moused over your weapons/mods. . . Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard. Everyone has a right to be stupid, just some people abuse the privilege.
Schmacos tryne	Posted - 2010.12.14 23:51:00 - [29] @ the OP: Don't worry. Tell your friends it's just a small matter of time before all functions / game mechanics somone find slightly redundant or inconveniant will be removed. We woudn't want the newbies feel unwelcome either. Just make sure you tell'em to scream in the forums alot about how everything sux! cheerio and ta ta!
Kailisto	Posted - 2010.12.14 23:57:00 - [30] I agree with the OP. It's not a matter of "Toughing it out" and "laziness". The learning curve can be steep, the game can remain intricate and meticulous, that's fine. But for someone who JUST started, a good in-game tutorial is not a bad thing. It takes away one of the main barriers of entry. "I don't have three hours to spend figuring everything out without help." Most designers and developers will tell you, you want a game which is accessible to all, but also deep and difficult to master for those who wish to delve into it. Right now EVE has the DEEP part down. But it's hardly accessible. It was the reason I didn't play EVE back in the day. I don't pay for games so I can wander around without knowing wtf I am doing at all. I don't need hand holding, what I need is at least the basic tools to understand how to even play the game. When I started about a year ago, there was some form of tutorial and starter missions, which greatly reduced the stress. I don't mind getting ganked, losing, being blown up or making mistakes which result in me losing everything. I can accept that if I made a mistake, or just thought I was a bit too tough but I shouldn't die simply because I didn't bother to read page 400 of the some wall of text on a freakin Wiki. The basics on how to play your game shouldn't require me to go to EVE wiki or come read the forums to read. That's the bottom line. Luckily though, they are making the tutorial better with every update it seems. So new people should feel more and more comfortable.



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