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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Fenix Inferni
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Posted - 2010.12.30 08:46:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Amy Frost
Am I missing something where you can extract 2 types of materials with the same Extractor Control Unit (for example Base+Heavy Metals as those are often available close to each other) at the same time or did you intend to break it? 
Amy Frost
Was going to make a post to ask same thing :)
Instead of double extraction capability for each ECU think would be a nice compromise between your "we don't want afk PI" and the actual system multi-extraction capability to link power/cpu usage only to extractor heads and not to ECUs: if someone wants to extract 3 or more resource on same planet he must double-click each ECU (no afk) and should be able to feed the processor cycles rougly like the "old tq PI system" (elite CCs call 3x resource extraction quite hard)
What do u think?
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Rupicolous
Higher Ground
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Posted - 2010.12.30 17:11:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Rupicolous on 30/12/2010 17:13:12
TBH, I invested lvl 5 PI skilling across the board on 9 characters and really got into the production side of it all.
Yes, it was a "clickfest" but that is what I feel seperated the casual user from the dedicated ISK generating producers.
I got used to the clicking and would spend about 1 hour between the chars, 3-4 times a day, for 5 hr cycle resets.
If I wasn't into it or needed a break, the option to set em for the 23hr cycle was always there.
I believe the original PI was thought out well enough to remain viable and see little reason to change it as a whole.
The only players seeming to want widespread change are the ones not dedicated to it's potential, the ones looking for an easy out.
Ironically, the easy out has been there all along with the option for longer cycle times.
The only changes needed are the smaller adjustments: Larger customs hangers with corporate access
As much as I'd like to see the newer PI as an improvement ......... I don't, I really don't at all.
and many of us that have already spent countless hours and ISK (destroy / rebuild) setting up our productions chains are going to be very dissapointed with the new release.
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Ma'kal
The Imperial Commonwealth
E.Y
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Posted - 2010.12.30 21:27:00 -
[63]
The part I found fun about PI at first was the set up. I spent a lot of time trying to find the optimized way to set up my extractors and factories. The problem I had with the original system was that once you set up the game-play was gone. It just be came a routine of clicking there was no though anymore.
I think this new set up has a similar problem. There is no game-play once you set up. It is a lot like mining is atm. Where once you set up there is nothing else to do but wait. I think PI needs some kind of variable factor to keep someone thinking or planing.
I think the fact that the resource veins deplete is a step in the right direction but there still needs to be something more.
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Ze'ev Sinraali
Ataraxia Pharmacies
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Posted - 2010.12.30 22:31:00 -
[64]
If every ECU came with one head for free, it would go a long way towards mitigating the issues mentioned in this thread.
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Rupicolous
Higher Ground
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Posted - 2010.12.31 03:20:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Ma'kal
The part I found fun about PI at first was the set up. I spent a lot of time trying to find the optimized way to set up my extractors and factories. The problem I had with the original system was that once you set up the game-play was gone. It just be came a routine of clicking there was no though anymore.
I think this new set up has a similar problem. There is no game-play once you set up. It is a lot like mining is atm. Where once you set up there is nothing else to do but wait. I think PI needs some kind of variable factor to keep someone thinking or planing.
I think the fact that the resource veins deplete is a step in the right direction but there still needs to be something more.
Production lacks game play period, it's production for christ' sake not game play.
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2010.12.31 04:25:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Rupicolous
*me likes the clickfest*
Sorry that you didn't got the memo buddy.. but PI in it's current inception was scheduled for change since it went first live on Sisi months ago!
So in reality you were playing with an already outdated UI and only because of the larger expansion cycle of 6 months the last version of PI made it to TQ at all. If CCP then had been delayed the patch-roll-out like they did this time, TQ would never had seen this version.
support
Public Idea Tracker | 24hr PLEX |
electrostatus
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.12.31 04:51:00 -
[67]
I've noticed something strange with the resources on the planet while I extract them. While they go down where I'm extracting, they go up elsewhere, and on the whole. Here is me setting up on the hottest spot of autotrophs: Before
I placed 20 extractor heads on it for 14 hours. Here is the planet roughly in the middle of the extraction: During
And here is it after the extraction finished: After
So two hotspots hotter than what was on the planet appeared, and I found a third one on the other side. Also the amount of autotrophs and complex organisms on the whole planet went up. Compare the amount of them in the scan window in the before and after pictures.
Secondly, after further testing, the powergrid and cpu requirements of the extractor control unit is too much. Either cut the powergrid and cpu on the control unit by at least 30% or the heads by 20%. If that is ignored, at least have the heads be able to extract different resources.
The storage facility also could use some work. I'd find it far more useful if it could hold as much or more than a spaceport.
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Vexo M > He turned the drives up to 11 |
Darod Zyree
Gallente
Zyree Holding
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Posted - 2010.12.31 09:00:00 -
[68]
TUX, any word(s) from the team working on PI, on the issues/concerns people have mentioned here?
-Darod- |
Tysliss
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Posted - 2010.12.31 11:07:00 -
[69]
Any way to get factories that are waiting for resources to get preference before cycling factories start filling their reserve supplies?
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Rupicolous
Higher Ground
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Posted - 2010.12.31 16:09:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Tres Farmer
Originally by: Rupicolous
*me likes the clickfest*
Sorry that you didn't got the memo buddy.. but PI in it's current inception was scheduled for change since it went first live on Sisi months ago!
So in reality you were playing with an already outdated UI and only because of the larger expansion cycle of 6 months the last version of PI made it to TQ at all. If CCP then had been delayed the patch-roll-out like they did this time, TQ would never had seen this version.
First off, to address your misquote - it's not that I like the clickfest, it's that I don't mind it much.
Secondly, you're not my buddy and
Thirdly, Your input does absolutly nothing to change my opinion of PI .........
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Lirinas
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Posted - 2010.12.31 19:00:00 -
[71]
My turn to chime in on the new Extractor & their control units.
They use way too much power grid. Here's my take on it: Have the Control Units use only CPU, and the individual extractor heads use Power Grid.
Also, will each ECU be able to handle only a single resource, or is it planned for them to be able to handle multiple resources (up to 1 resource per head)?
I also want to see storage PINs more usable. I like the idea for small/big storage PINs, but for the easy fix, at least lower the fitting requirements and boost the capacity of the current one?
And what ever happened to being able to link our networks to another player? I haven't heard anything on that for months now.
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Mikal Bishop
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Posted - 2011.01.02 14:12:00 -
[72]
I have a couple of questions or points
1) I can no longer user multiple storage PINs when extracting the same amount of material I always ran my extractors a little ahead of my processors. The multiple storage PINs gave me a buffer if I couldn't get back before the cycle ended
2) I have advanced planetology to IV and soon 5. I found the highest concentration on the planet. When I came back and scanned the next day the highest concentration was outside the range of my extractor control unit. Am I going to have to move ECU to continuously get the highest yields. If that is so that is going to do couple of things. Length my links to the my processors which could very well put me over the limits, move the processors if I am over the limits and cost me isk every time I have to pickup and put down a new PIN
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Minamel
Stardust Heavy Industries
Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2011.01.02 15:47:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Minamel on 02/01/2011 15:49:58
The new Pi is nice but my big concern is the high base cost of ECU. This force you to use the maximum number of heads. Result is that planets that extract two or more materials and therfore need 2 or more ECU with fewer heads have problems with powergrid. Result are "P1only Planets" including a hauling nightmare.
For my opinion Base Cost (Cpu and Power) for ECU could be lower as compensation Cpu and Powercost for the Heads could be a bit higher.
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Mikal Bishop
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Posted - 2011.01.02 19:46:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Mikal Bishop on 02/01/2011 19:46:50
I think someone mentioned this earlier. Why not just assign the Power and CPU requirements to the extractor heads and nothing to the ECU. That way you would get exactly the same power and CPU use as you do now.
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Staner Industries
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Posted - 2011.01.02 22:21:00 -
[75]
The development focus seems to be focused on the micro management of PI. However there is a macro-management issue that needs to be looked at. The current market only values resource extraction, and devalues production.
If you run a spreadsheet on the profitability of PI production practically every step extra loses money except POS fuels.
Spreadsheet Proof.
The big problem is there is only demand for POS fuels, there is next to no demand for any other PI production. The Advanced end products of PI need their demand increasing.
The obvious first choice would be new BPO for Planetary Command Centres, but the new mother-ship and other Capitals could have a few included in their production materials list.
Consideration should also be given to reprocessing PI intermediates sold below cost by idiots selling below cost.
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Jairen Armana
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Posted - 2011.01.02 23:18:00 -
[76]
Originally by: CCP Tuxford
I can¦t really answer for game design about their intent but afaik we didn't want to muck about with the production chains. Of course ECUs are different than extractors so some changes were inevitable and network that used to work might not have the powergrid or cpu anymore.
I'll forward your concerns to the team.
well, is there any changes planned now? cause if the changes will go live like it's now on Sisi, it will destroy the production on one planet with 4 production lines, because the Extractor Control Units need way too much Energy Grid, if the Extractor Head Units need also Energy Grid.
If you lower the Energy Grid need for the Extractor Control Units form 2800 MW per Unit to 1400 MW , it should be OK.
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Amy Garzan
Gallente
The Warp Rats
Apocalypse Now.
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Posted - 2011.01.03 00:07:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Amy Garzan on 03/01/2011 00:09:00
Is it just me or is the color scheme when scanning for where to put extractors messed up? I know it has the "base" amount, and I see how it is showing vs time, but also the graph needs to scale vs the base amount. Its really confusing as it looks like Im getting better rates from the graph when Im really not.
I also second that the extractors use wayyy to much resources(grid/cpu).
Also, what will happen with existing setups on patch day? Will they be converted, or will they be destroyed? With the second, will we be reimbursed?
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101010 The Answer to Life, The Universe, and Everything |
Mikal Bishop
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Posted - 2011.01.03 00:33:00 -
[78]
I would liked some explanation of the numbers control unit.
The numbers on the left - No idea. The higher the number the better yield but what is the range of number so they have some meaning.
The graph seems to indicate the yield for each hour of the plan but it doesn't match with the current cylce output numbers on the window when you first select the ecu.
ex: That firts window shows 21341 for the current cycle which is a half hour cycle. Now when I open the survey program the amount where the while line is 51625 per hour shouldn't that be twice what the half hour cycle is.
The Output per hour in the bottom right of the survey program screen I believe is Avg hourly yield over the program cycle it should say that.
So basically you have three numbers indicating hourly yields and none of them agree with the other.
I think you are going to have alot of frustrated people when they try to use this.
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Darod Zyree
Gallente
Zyree Holding
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Posted - 2011.01.03 13:26:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Darod Zyree
TUX, any word(s) from the team working on PI, on the issues/concerns people have mentioned here?
-Darod- |
Erik Legant
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Posted - 2011.01.04 14:57:00 -
[80]
I tried the new PI.
I fear that now the colonies will all look like a cell mass, with all the PINs grouped together as close as possible. It's ugly.
And with the links between an ECU and its extraction heads being free, anyone will be able to set up a colony without any thinking about it.
CCP wanted to make us spend more time on the planets after the initial set-up. But now the set-up is a piece of cake and moving the extraction heads in not that different from restarting the extractors.
That, I'm not happy with.
Otherwise I like being able to set up the duration of the extraction cycle. |
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Tsabrock
Gallente
Circle of Friends
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Posted - 2011.01.04 23:04:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Tsabrock on 04/01/2011 23:04:55
There indeed is very little demand for the higher-tier planetary products, and I honestly don't know what they can do to increase their demand without overhauling the entire industry system, or tacking-on yet another new manufacturing system to give the products some value.
I would personally prefer a total industry overhaul as opposed to yet another patch on the system we have now.
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If you've read something I posted and want to contact me, EVE-Mail me, or contact me via EVE Gate. |
Kal XL
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Posted - 2011.01.05 02:45:00 -
[82]
Opinions of a PI addict incoming.
tl;dr I don't like these changes. Keep the current PI setup and just improve usability. Or make this PI change optional 
I have 12 characters with PI 4 skills trained. 60 planets with 10 extractors each is indeed a gigantic clickfest, but I had total control over every step of it.
I dislike that the new PI version automates some of the monotony for you and at the same time requires more uncreative input. Oh great, I don't have to click as much, but I have to move my extractors every few days and second-guess everything the UI is telling me? Not sure how this is supposed to simplify things or make it more fun.
I see one main complaint is that setting up factories is a pain, but that doesn't make much sense to me because I only set up my factories once. 10 mins or whatever it takes you to initially set up your planet is trivial compared to the time spent refreshing cycles if you actually stick with PI for a while. Someone care to elaborate on why this is such a major downfall of PI?
My main frustration with PI as it is now is that there SERIOUSLY needs to be an 'Undo last request' button. It is very annoying to be clicking through dozens of extractors, setting them to 5 hour cycles and then misclick one to a 30 min cycle that botches the routing and have to cancel all of them just to fix it. I typically set cycles in batches of 5, but misclicking is still a pain (who decided that extractor UI had to be in size 8 font, with the options only a few pixels apart?). Also, the ability to unbind the 'double-click centers camera on CC' function is a must.
Someone said this patch was to reduce 'afk PI', I take it they are thinking of some sort of PI macro? Here is my response to that: CCP designed a game where time dictates almost everything, rather than 'user skill/interaction.' Obviously there are exceptions, but I'm referring to the tasks of mining, production, ratting, missioning, PI, etc. These tasks are all fairly mundane and yet important aspects of the game. Unfortunately, they are also simple enough to allow an unscrupulous few to cheat. If a goal of this patch or any others is to reduce or eliminate 'afk anything' they should make tasks like these more interactive and also consider implementing a Warden-like system. I don't see how any of these changes to PI will make the whole process more interactive or afk-proof.
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Darod Zyree
Gallente
Zyree Holding
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Posted - 2011.01.05 07:49:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Darod Zyree
Originally by: Darod Zyree
TUX, any word(s) from the team working on PI, on the issues/concerns people have mentioned here?
Don't leave us in the dark man :(
-Darod- |
Siyk
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Posted - 2011.01.05 12:56:00 -
[84]
Personally I prefer the TQ PI, the new format cuts my profits and makes PI that one bit more actively annoying... Here was me thinking that the new changes would benefit both my wallet and time ;)
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Arosth Katsbalger
DISSPACHERS
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Posted - 2011.01.06 03:56:00 -
[85]
maybe people were making wayyyy too much isk and the ones who aren't innovative enough to figure out how to make isk complained about how there were so many toons richer than they were. so they had to "balance" it all in such a way as to make it "fair". i agree with some others why fix what is not broken? just optimize it. the UI in test atm is alot more efficient and intuitive. that is what people wanted, not the possibility of a complete nerf job. i like the whole concept of PI as it sets up for a deeper story and the eventuality of Dust becoming a reality. i mean hell, what have you got to fight for if there isn't land to fight over right?
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Bloodpetal
The Black Company TBC
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Posted - 2011.01.06 05:23:00 -
[86]
Trying to make a complete process from start to finish isnt' working for me anymore.
I don't think it's possible to get a complete extractor process on one planet, making it pointless to have planets that you can produce single items at from start to finish.
I think that has to be rebalanced with the new extractor PG and CPU so that you can set some extractors and factories to produce a whole system.
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Bastet :: First Sergeant |
mechtech
SRS Industries
SRS.
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Posted - 2011.01.06 05:49:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Bloodpetal
Trying to make a complete process from start to finish isnt' working for me anymore.
I don't think it's possible to get a complete extractor process on one planet, making it pointless to have planets that you can produce single items at from start to finish.
I think that has to be rebalanced with the new extractor PG and CPU so that you can set some extractors and factories to produce a whole system.
Well to be fair the whole idea was to have interdependence between the products in order to create a rich PI material market. Whether or not importing/exporting creates too much overhead work is debatable, but in general I think it's healthier if people can't easily skip from P1 to P3 on a single planet.
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Siyk
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Posted - 2011.01.06 08:20:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Arosth Katsbalger
maybe people were making wayyyy too much isk and the ones who aren't innovative enough to figure out how to make isk complained about how there were so many toons richer than they were. so they had to "balance" it all in such a way as to make it "fair". i agree with some others why fix what is not broken? just optimize it. the UI in test atm is alot more efficient and intuitive. that is what people wanted, not the possibility of a complete nerf job. i like the whole concept of PI as it sets up for a deeper story and the eventuality of Dust becoming a reality. i mean hell, what have you got to fight for if there isn't land to fight over right?
Way too much isk? If someone is using 5+ characters, I'd damned expect good return on my time... It really isnt hard to figure out how to make good isk...
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Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
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Posted - 2011.01.06 08:29:00 -
[89]
IMHO the biggest issue is(was?) the variation in the 'harmonic' between the initial view and after the confirmation, which always seemed to drop my yields by up to 20%. It makes positioning for resource hotspots pointless as you're pretty much guaranteed to miss when you try 
as for the increase in grid for the ECUs + extractor heads over just the plain extractors i don't really mind it, it encourages specialization and a healthier market in lower tier PI goods
_____________________
Look down. Back up. Where are you? You're on a forum, with the alt your alt could post like. |
Black Fred
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Posted - 2011.01.06 10:22:00 -
[90]
Objective: Player satisfaction, smooth transition from the actual PI, don't rock a stabilizating market. (i hope all this are objectives of a Caring Dev(TM) )
On the way of implementation: ECU are a good solution, because opens the PI to the "i have a life" player, has less clickfest, and generally permits to custom the PI time to the real life time.
Proposed solution:
-modify cpu/pg to ECU and mining heads to match the actual profile. The actual levels of production canÆt be reduced so much. (Coding time for implementation: very small, needs just change some parameters, or not?
-modify the rate of resources regeneration. Much more planetary total, less regeneration. Moving the mining heads on a daily basis to follow the resources is unrealistic and a chore worst that the actual clickfest, moving the entire colony on a month basis instead is an acceptable and more realistic solution. (Coding time for implementation: very small, needs just change some parameters, or not?)
-eliminate the difference between survey and effective raw material mined, with the ôharmonic diagramö whatÆs the point in making so random/useless the searching of hot spots, itÆs using cpu cycles and maybe database accesses for useless numbers, forgotten after confirmation. (Coding time: ?)
-The ECU needs an m3/h output. (Coding time: ?)
Pros: The above mentioned objectives.
Cons: none?
If for game balancing, the devs think that P3 planets are a market distortion, up the cpu/pg needs of mining heads, but the cpu/pg of ECUs needs to be sufficiently low to permit at least the extraction of 3 raw materials on the same planet.
2¦ part will follow.
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