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Low Sec Hauling: Standad Indy vs Advanced (Caldari)

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Nok Cartesian	Posted - 2010.12.20 13:42:00 - [1] Hey, first off I want to say that despite my character creation date, I'm definately a noob. I started playing about a year ago for a month, but then stopped due to being too busy, and have just started again just last week, so please, if this question seems really noobish, explain to me why so I can improve my understanding of the game. So, currently I have found I enjoy hauling through low sec. It is exciting running away from pirates trying to gank you etc, and I haven't lost any haulers in the past week (though when I first played last year I lost a couple due to not understanding how to utilize the map and stuff). Anyway, I was thinking of training to use the Advanced Industrial Hauling ships, but looking at them, it seems like the Advanced Industrial Ships both have advantages and disadvantages over the Badger MK II. They aren't really unequivocally better, like you might expect given that they require both more training and significantly more ISK to purchase. I'm running Caldari so the ships I'm looking at are the Bustard and the Crane. The Bustard has more hit points but it is much slower (115 m/sec vs 80 m/sec). Its fittings are different but I'm not sure which ship would have the best modules fit for low sec hauling. For example the Bustard has five (!) low slots, but yet it already has two warp stabilizers "hard wired" into it so I'm not sure that five low slots are even worth the loss of two medium slots and a high slot. Also, there's the fact that it costs 90 million ISK in the market (in Jita today anyway) versus 800,000 for the Badger Mk II. The Crane has a higher top speed combined with a lower inertia modifier, but a much lower cargo capacity, one less low slot and two less medium slots. The Crane costs about 60 million ISK. Anyway, what do you guys think? Is a Bustard or a Crane worth the extra ISK and the extra training required?
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2010.12.20 14:01:00 - [2] Covert Ops Cloak is the only answer to your question that matters. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Riedle Minmatar Wayne's TV and Appliances	Posted - 2010.12.20 14:01:00 - [3] The Crane is the one you want for the job that you are doing. It is virtually impossible for anyone to catch in low sec if you fly it right. It is a blockade runner. I have the minmatar one (prowler) and yes, it is awesomesauce.
BiggestT Caldari Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.12.20 16:27:00 - [4] Originally by: Anubis Xian Covert Ops Cloak is the only answer to your question that matters. This, it allows you to warp cloaked giving you a free ticket to travel anywhere in lowsec virtually risk free. This leaves all your low slots free for expanders too, stabs are pointless (shameless pun intended). EVE Trivia EVE History
Von Kroll Caldari Kroll's Legion	Posted - 2010.12.20 18:33:00 - [5] With a MWD and T2 or faction cloak, the Bustard can be reasonably safe from roaming pilots as well, using the cloak/mwd technique. You don't want to try and bust through a large gate camp with it, but against a solo or small group of larger ships that don't have fast tackle, you can operate safely.
Riedle Minmatar Wayne's TV and Appliances	Posted - 2010.12.20 18:36:00 - [6] Originally by: BiggestT Originally by: Anubis Xian Covert Ops Cloak is the only answer to your question that matters. This, it allows you to warp cloaked giving you a free ticket to travel anywhere in lowsec virtually risk free. This leaves all your low slots free for expanders too, stabs are pointless (shameless pun intended). Use Nanos in low for a blockade runner..
Spruillo Gallente Spruillo Corp	Posted - 2010.12.20 18:53:00 - [7] Edited by: Spruillo on 20/12/2010 18:55:57 Originally by: Riedle Use Nanos in low for a blockade runner.. Nope, IStabs. Nanos might be fine for cov ops hauler but For mwd trick on heavier ships in general you want lowest top speed and best agility possible Originally by: Nok Cartesian The Bustard has more hit points but it is much slower (115 m/sec vs 80 m/sec). Slower is fine. And if you get it down right, a blockade runner is just a safe as cov ops and hauls much more. The prob with big gatecamps is a combination of lag/adrenaline if you dont lag to bad and keep cool and do your thing theyr no prob. Matter of fact I know some1 who using a specific fit + implants pilots orcas thu some of the most hostile losec around and blows thru camps. All that being said, cov ops anyway. Originally by: CCP Big Dumb Object When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed.
Pod Amarr	Posted - 2010.12.20 19:01:00 - [8] Originally by: Spruillo Edited by: Spruillo on 20/12/2010 18:55:57 Originally by: Riedle Use Nanos in low for a blockade runner.. Nope, IStabs. Nanos might be fine for cov ops hauler but For mwd trick on heavier ships in general you want lowest top speed and best agility possible Originally by: Nok Cartesian The Bustard has more hit points but it is much slower (115 m/sec vs 80 m/sec). Slower is fine. And if you get it down right, a blockade runner is just a safe as cov ops and hauls much more. The prob with big gatecamps is a combination of lag/adrenaline if you dont lag to bad and keep cool and do your thing theyr no prob. Matter of fact I know some1 who using a specific fit + implants pilots orcas thu some of the most hostile losec around and blows thru camps. All that being said, cov ops anyway. I stabs will bloat your signature Nanos give more agility more speed should you need to kick the mwd in and try to run out of bubbles or something. It can be argued both ways the covert ops one is the way to go for low sec hauling. If not busting camps you can use the other one but I just would not if it is risky you might as well use the Badger II
Baneken Gallente School of the Unseen	Posted - 2010.12.20 19:11:00 - [9] Deepspace transport is better named as 'Jita space' transport for what it's meant to do; withstand suicide gank attempts. In low sec it will be bumped to death if need be before it can align to safety and in null sec you may kiss it good bye if you land in a bubble. http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Riedle Minmatar Wayne's TV and Appliances	Posted - 2010.12.20 19:23:00 - [10] Edited by: Riedle on 20/12/2010 19:24:23 Quote: Nope, IStabs. Nanos might be fine for cov ops hauler but For mwd trick on heavier ships in general you want lowest top speed and best agility possible Istabs? nanos give you better agility.. Quote: Slower is fine. And if you get it down right, a blockade runner is just a safe as cov ops and hauls much more. exactly. I can't really think of a reason why a blockade runner can get caught in low sec myself. Quote: The prob with big gatecamps is a combination of lag/adrenaline if you dont lag to bad and keep cool and do your thing theyr no prob. Matter of fact I know some1 who using a specific fit + implants pilots orcas thu some of the most hostile losec around and blows thru camps. I go through Rancer almost every day with my prowler. Even null is fine, but you need to navigate out of a bubble without being decloaked. But other than that, it's pretty safe. Nanos plus cloak = win

Caleidascope Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2010.12.20 20:16:00 - [11] Don't use industrial. I lost one in low sec while running courier mission. After that I stopped doing missions that sent me to low sec. Yesterday, on my way through low sec (doing a bit of ratting and exploring) I saw wreck of industrial 16 km from the gate, must have been caught like my indi, came out of cloak while trying to warp to zero and got blown to bits by pirates sitting on the gate.
TimMc Brutal Deliverance Extreme Prejudice.	Posted - 2010.12.20 22:39:00 - [12] Edited by: TimMc on 20/12/2010 22:39:36 Lets lay out some facts since there seem to be some morons here. Transport ships come in 2 flavours - 1) Tougher, bigger haulers that require more disruptors to stop 2) Covert Ops cloak fitted haulers that lack space but are agile In lowsec, the covert ops version (crane) is king. You can move around basically immortal unless: 1) You lag and allow someone to lock you 2) You undock from a station that is camped 3) You run into an organised gatecamp using remote sensor boosters to "instalock" you. Several people have argued over how to fit a crane. In lowsec, the answer is to fit for as much cargo space as possible and increase EHP in the mids. In nullsec you will worry about align time since interceptors will try to catch you, and bubbles may force you to rapidly reapproach the gate. I-stabs and Shield Extenders are to be avoided due to their penalties of increases signature radius and making you easier to lock. Once locked, you cannot cloak. I tell you to fit resist mods, and maybe a MWD in the mids. Resist mods because you may run into a smartbombing battleship, and need to be able to survive the encounter. [Crane, Hauler] Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II Explosion Dampening Amplifier II Covert Ops Cloaking Device II Medium Cargohold Optimization I Medium Cargohold Optimization I Fit is the same for nullsec, besides swapping a cargohold optimization rig for a low friction nozzle joint for more agility.
Pod Amarr	Posted - 2010.12.20 22:48:00 - [13] Originally by: TimMc Edited by: TimMc on 20/12/2010 22:39:36 Lets lay out some facts since there seem to be some morons here. Transport ships come in 2 flavours - 1) Tougher, bigger haulers that require more disruptors to stop 2) Covert Ops cloak fitted haulers that lack space but are agile In lowsec, the covert ops version (crane) is king. You can move around basically immortal unless: 1) You lag and allow someone to lock you 2) You undock from a station that is camped 3) You run into an organised gatecamp using remote sensor boosters to "instalock" you. Several people have argued over how to fit a crane. In lowsec, the answer is to fit for as much cargo space as possible and increase EHP in the mids. In nullsec you will worry about align time since interceptors will try to catch you, and bubbles may force you to rapidly reapproach the gate. I-stabs and Shield Extenders are to be avoided due to their penalties of increases signature radius and making you easier to lock. Once locked, you cannot cloak. I tell you to fit resist mods, and maybe a MWD in the mids. Resist mods because you may run into a smartbombing battleship, and need to be able to survive the encounter. [Crane, Hauler] Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II Explosion Dampening Amplifier II Covert Ops Cloaking Device II Medium Cargohold Optimization I Medium Cargohold Optimization I Fit is the same for nullsec, besides swapping a cargohold optimization rig for a low friction nozzle joint for more agility. This pretty much was too lazy to type out the reasons. Nanos and agility rigs are your friens do not use anything that makes your signature to bloat in 0.0 low sec you would have to be really dumb to get caught in a covert ops hauler.
Pharos Pharos	Posted - 2010.12.21 23:23:00 - [14] Edited by: Pharos Pharos on 21/12/2010 23:23:48 The salient points have all been made, but with regards to the istab/nanos debate, some people seem to be confused. Istabs versus nanos on a covert hauler is a rather moot point, since you're warping cloaked anyway. However, when you need more cargo space and thus take a DST and use the mwd+cloak trick to bypass camps (which is ridiculously easy in lowsec and about as safe as a covert hauler to be honest) istabs are useful because they increase your agility while not increasing your speed - which ensures that you get up to your full mwd+cloak velocity before the mwd cycle ends and can be confident that you'll be at 75% velocity when you drop cloak and instawarp. I'm pretty sure that there's no way to hit the magic 75% after one mwd cycle unless you have awful skills, but this might help in some situations. Secondly the increased agility might let you get an extra km or two away from where you cloaked in case the campers are on the ball with trying to decloak you, but then the speed bonus of nanos would probably be more helpful here. The sig radius penalty is meaningless in either case because you should be instawarping as soon as you drop cloak. In fact, with either hauler, the sig radius penalty doesn't really matter - you'll only got caught due to lag. So istabs could be useful even on a covert hauler for getting out of there before they decloak you faster. You know, I'd actually say to put nanos on a DST, because you want some extra speed to get away from the point where they saw you cloak, and you won't be able to warp until one MWD cycle is over at any rate, and istabs on a covert transport, since all that matters for them is time to warp for avoiding decloaks.
TimMc Brutal Deliverance Extreme Prejudice.	Posted - 2010.12.21 23:57:00 - [15] You fail to realise that you never actually cloak instantly, there is always a tiny pause. Interceptors with sensor booster can catch you, made easier with i-stabs installed.
Pharos Pharos	Posted - 2010.12.22 00:28:00 - [16] Time to lock goes from .4 seconds to .3 seconds in the example I checked. Given the 1 second ticks of eve, the .1 second difference is inconsequential - and you're only getting caught in between decloak and cloak as a result of lag anyway, which that would not change.
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Hounds of Anarchy	Posted - 2010.12.22 00:32:00 - [17] Originally by: TimMc You fail to realise that you never actually cloak instantly, there is always a tiny pause. Interceptors with sensor booster can catch you, made easier with i-stabs installed. it's more the lack of agility that kills you in nullsec. most BR's that die in nullsec are not shield extended or pack Istabs or whatever. they die because of the full cargo expanded setup they have fitted, making it easy for an interceptor pilot to simply get a line on it and decloak+scram it. granted this issue disappears with proper scouting, or if you go on lowsec, but people still die lots like this. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.12.22 00:33:00 - [18] Originally by: Pharos Pharos istabs are useful because they increase your agility while not increasing your speed - which ensures that you get up to your full mwd+cloak velocity before the mwd cycle ends and can be confident that you'll be at 75% velocity when you drop cloak and instawarp. The top speed of a ship does not change the time it takes to reach 75% velocity, only the agility modifier does (and massà but that one is modified by the MWD). The reason istabs are better than nano for that particular purpose is because istabs give a higher agility bonus. Originally by: Riedle Istabs? nanos give you better agility.. No they don't. Istab II: -20% inertia modifier. Nano II: -15.8 inertia modifier. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
TimMc Brutal Deliverance Extreme Prejudice.	Posted - 2010.12.22 01:39:00 - [19] Fine, I submit lol. I don't use i-stabs or nanos on my cloaky hauler though - just the rigs. Probably would go with 2 agility rigs if was purely nullsec.


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