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Ranthe Bloodmoon
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Posted - 2010.12.20 16:34:00 -
[1]
I was under the assumption that you should not use two repairers. I have started looking into how to fit my cruiser and soon, battleship and I've seen a lot of double-rep set ups. Has something changed or did I misunderstand when I first started playing?
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.12.20 16:37:00 -
[2]
Let's start in this end: why did you think you shouldn't?
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
Ranthe Bloodmoon
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Posted - 2010.12.20 16:41:00 -
[3]
I was told that A) it was a waist of cap and ship resources and B)did not actually repair anything faster.
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Intigo
Amarr
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2010.12.20 16:44:00 -
[4]
so...many.....variables......
are you talking pve or pvp
you fit a ship according to it's purpose, you do not build a bunch of "DO X OR DO Y, NEVER STRAY FROM THIS PLAN REGARDLESS OF PVE / PVP / MOOD / SEXUAL ORIENTATION / SKIN TONE" rules
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.12.20 16:47:00 -
[5]
Well, B is false, and A is just a matter of setting the ship up correctly.
Or, wellà B is true form a certain perspective: having two reppers obviously does not reduce their cycle time, but you rep more in the same amount of time and/or you can can stagger the cycles so that any one repair cycle takes effect at half the cycle time of the other repper.
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
Ranthe Bloodmoon
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Posted - 2010.12.20 16:53:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Ranthe Bloodmoon on 20/12/2010 16:55:01
I'm sorry for not dumping more information into this. It's just general use, maybe small PVP defending cans or something.
I was still told though that it was useless because having two repairers doesn't repair anything faster. I guess that's the main reason I was asking. I'm assuming, because of your feedback, that this is untrue. I'll do more research and attempt to figure out the advantages to having dual reps once I'm better able afford a BC or BS and fit it. I don't plan on huge PVP until I find a good corp though.
P.S. I hadn't thought of staggering cycles. Now it makes a little more sense. I was thinking that you'd hit both of them and because there were two, you would basically get two times repair per cycle, which I was told was not possible.
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NiiKleagh
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Posted - 2010.12.20 17:18:00 -
[7]
With certain ships, while in PVP, I have done very well with dual armor reppers.
Some guys even go for three armor reppers on the Myrmidon.
I've recently heard it explained as "for solo work, active tank - for fleet work, passive tank and logistics" which sorta works in my head. Of course small pvp fleets don't always have logistics... but any large fleet should pre-determine if they're going armor or shield, and then bring enough of the respective logi ships.
The only dual-repping we don't see very much of is dual-shield repping ships... for PVE it can work, but for PVP I've never seen it.
If you dedicate your ship to a dual-repping route, always use the correct rigs to increase the armor repairer repair-amounts. Flying a tri-mark rigged ship with multiple reppers isn't the worst thing you could do, but it isn't the best either.
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Cataca
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Posted - 2010.12.20 17:34:00 -
[8]
The 2 armor reppers repair individually, having 2 medium armor reppers running full time, will result in you getting twice the armor repaired, for twice the capacitor used, if you have them both active. There are no stacking penalties involved, just increased cap use.
I consider dual armor reppers fairly useless for pve, no mission needs that much tank if you pay attention, and more resists instead are more effective most of the time. But for pvp getting the maximum possible tank is often needed, thus dual or tripple setups are fairly common. (well, as common as active tanking setups are nowadays)
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NiiKleagh
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Posted - 2010.12.20 17:37:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: Cataca
The 2 armor reppers repair individually, having 2 medium armor reppers running full time, will result in you getting twice the armor repaired, for twice the capacitor used, if you have them both active. There are no stacking penalties involved, just increased cap use.
I consider dual armor reppers fairly useless for pve, no mission needs that much tank if you pay attention, and more resists instead are more effective most of the time. But for pvp getting the maximum possible tank is often needed, thus dual or tripple setups are fairly common. (well, as common as active tanking setups are nowadays)
Well said, but I think a dual-large-repped Dominix is still very prevalent for lower-skilled guys in PVE... it takes a while to be able to fly an Ishtar that can do the same damage but have a smaller sig radius.
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Ezee Monee
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Posted - 2010.12.20 18:22:00 -
[10]
As time goes on, it is amazing how much misinformation and/or outright stupidity gets disseminated down the ranks.
If dual repping didn't work at all, why would there be so many fits with them?!
Also, did note someone talking about dual shield reps - yes it can technically be done, but usually fitting amps/hards/resi mods are just plain better. Don't forget Armor never regens, shields do - so a different set of "eve math" is used to figure a setup that works for a specific purpose.
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Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
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Posted - 2010.12.20 18:29:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Tippia
Well, B is false, and A is just a matter of setting the ship up correctly.
Or, wellà B is true form a certain perspective: having two reppers obviously does not reduce their cycle time, but you rep more in the same amount of time and/or you can can stagger the cycles so that any one repair cycle takes effect at half the cycle time of the other repper.
I've always assumed that the reason, or at least part of it, for a dual rep setup (but thinking more in terms of shield tanking), was that you'd perma-run one repper, and then run the second repper occasionally. If so, you should be cap-stable perma-running the first repper.
Am I entirely wrong here?
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Salpad |
Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2010.12.20 18:36:00 -
[12]
If you are running tight fittings, but have plenty of slots, downgrading a large repper to two medium reppers gets you the same hp/s. Works for mediums downgrading to two smalls as well.
Originally by: CCP Oveur
The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
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Ranthe Bloodmoon
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Posted - 2010.12.20 19:35:00 -
[13]
Lot of stuff to think about, thanks guys. I think I'll stick to carebear land and not have to worry about tanking so much...
Naa who am I kidding... I'ma be out in null eventually.
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raukosen
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Posted - 2010.12.20 19:49:00 -
[14]
Edited by: raukosen on 20/12/2010 19:49:10
Well for armor tanks in PvP specifically there's pretty much just two ships you'd ever fit two armor reps on and that's the Myrmidon and Hyperion (triage carriers as well I suppose). If you're going to fly either of those then look into it, otherwise active armor tank is pretty much only used in PvE
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RavenPaine
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Posted - 2010.12.20 20:31:00 -
[15]
Duel reps are generally used in solo or small gang stuff. 90% of the setups I've seen are on Gallente ships. Hype, Vindi, Myrm, and Brutix all use them. The trap/bait is to appear outnumbered and tank excessive DPS until the calvary arrives.
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Daneel Trevize
Black Viper Nomads
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Posted - 2010.12.20 21:01:00 -
[16]
Fitting 1 repper or 2 isn't a simple matter, you have to consider the tradeoff at least for the low slot and rigs, because with just 1 you can run hardeners and faster rep cycle rigs for the same capacitor use rate, whereas 2 reps might have lower resists and less buffer with rigs to directly counter the cap use/increase the cap efficiency by giving more hp per rep but are not as effective at improving your tank as the cycle rate increasing ones. Of course, a higher burst rep amount can still be pulsed and managed to rep a lower effective dps at reduced cap use. A lower max rep setup will need to overheat and hope they haven't bitten off too much, but with probably less cap concerns. |
Julien Brellier
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Posted - 2010.12.21 00:57:00 -
[17]
I think prehaps the OP is confusing Dual Tanking with Dual Repping.
Dual Tanking is when you try to tank both shield and aromor at the same time. This is fail.
Dual Repping is when you use twin armor reps to sustain a monster tank. This is win in PvE if you have low DPS and need a strong tank.
Dual repping shields is difficult to do and requires either a cap booster or remote energy transfer to make it viable.
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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
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Posted - 2010.12.21 01:33:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Julien Brellier
Dual repping shields is difficult to do and requires either a cap booster or remote energy transfer to make it viable.
It's also silly. Three reasons:
1) Shield boosters can relatively easily be upsized -- so it's not uncommon to see a LSB on a cruiser/BC. The existence of XL shield boosters allows the same on BSs.
2) Shield boosters are more cap hungry than armor reps, making any semblance of cap stability difficult. This is compounded by the fact that it uses mid slots that could be used for injectors on armor rep setups.
3) Fitting a shield booster + boost amp is almost always a better idea than two boosters. It won't rep up quite as much but it's much easier on fitting and cap use. Armor reps don't have the amp option (as far as modules go; auxiliary nano pump rigs do the same for armor).
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Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
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Posted - 2010.12.21 04:15:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Zhilia Mann
3) Fitting a shield booster + boost amp is almost always a better idea than two boosters. It won't rep up quite as much but it's much easier on fitting and cap use. Armor reps don't have the amp option (as far as modules go; auxiliary nano pump rigs do the same for armor).
What about the 2x Small Gistii(sp?) B shield booster, that everyone tells me I should fit if I want to active tank, e.g., a Nighthawk?
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Salpad |
Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.21 04:36:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Salpad
What about the 2x Small Gistii(sp?) B shield booster, that everyone tells me I should fit if I want to active tank, e.g., a Nighthawk?
That has more to do with the price of the larger size module. If the Gistum B-type medium shield booster were affordable, then it would be used in lieu of the dual-gistii setup. But it's not, so it isn't. 
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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
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Posted - 2010.12.21 04:55:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Salpad
What about the 2x Small Gistii(sp?) B shield booster, that everyone tells me I should fit if I want to active tank, e.g., a Nighthawk?
That would be the exception. You're undersizing instead of oversizing -- and in this limited example it works wonderfully.
Oh, and it's Pith-Bs, not Gist-Bs. Pith-Bs actually boost more per second than medium T2s (two of them actually do more than large T2s) -- all for half the cap. While having less than half the fittings. Which makes fitting two of them rather logical.
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Ranthe Bloodmoon
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Posted - 2010.12.21 15:24:00 -
[22]
I wasn't confusing dual tank with dual rep. I've lived through the noob days of trying that only to find that it doesn't work. Then I tried hull tank... much lost money and time. Now I'm on a new, clean character and trying to learn armor tanking. Though I find Amarr ships easier to armor tank in, I'd rather run drones. lol So I'm training Gallente. People that I've asked in game are all "You don't need two reps at all... EVER. And it doesn't work." That is why I asked here.
From what I gather, the best active PVP tank ships are gallente? Then that fits with my current training path.
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Wacktopia
Dark Side Of The Womb
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Posted - 2010.12.21 16:31:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Wacktopia on 21/12/2010 16:33:16
Edited by: Wacktopia on 21/12/2010 16:32:40
Be aware that in PvP active tanks are a mixed blessing. Why? Because there is a fairly binary outcome to your tanking...
Option 1) Your tank beats incoming dps and you live for a while
Option 2) Your tank does not beat incoming dps and you die very quickly.
With many active tank setups "Option 2" is the likely outcome unless you are one-on-one with someone - and this is less likely in a multiplayer game.
There are also other things that can go wrong, namely:
1) You are not quick enough turning your reppers on = dead
2) You do not have enough cap to run the reppers or are neuted = dead
3) You overload the reppers and burn them out = dead
4) You forget to turn one or more reppers off and cap out = dead
Given the potential problems with active tanking, many PvP players opt for a 'buffer' tank - a high number of 'hitpoints' that your enemies need to chew through before you die. There is often less to remember and less to go wrong with a buffer tank and therefore it tends to be the learner's choice.
So, props to you for choosing one of the more difficult tanking tactics in EVE (the other being speed tanking, which is also more difficult than it sounds).
If you really do want to active tank in PvP then the general opinion is GO BIG, REALLY BIG.. This means that you need to put lots of your fitting, skills etc into the active tank.
Two classic examples I can think of for 'going big' is the tripple-rep Myrmidon (EFT fits included below) and the 'Kessah' Dominix fits .
ProTip #1: To active tank well you need to be able to 'overload' your modules, so train up Thermodynamics
ProTip #2: Active tanking requires a bit of testing imho, so why not check out the Test Server.
ProTip #3: You can get drugs that will further boost your tank. I strongly suggest you research these as they are commonplace and extremely useful.
Active Armor Tank: Exile Boosts
Active Shield Tank: Blue Pill Boosters
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[Myrmidon, Tripple Rep Autos]
Damage Control II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Scrambler II
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Nanobot Accelerator I
Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I
Ogre II x3
Vespa EC-600 x5
Warrior II x5
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Ranthe Bloodmoon
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Posted - 2010.12.21 17:45:00 -
[24]
Sounds to me like I jumped right off the high dive into the deep end, full of sharks... Just the way I like to do things. I'll keep all this in mind when I finally make it to BC and BS weighted ships.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.12.21 18:01:00 -
[25]
Welcome to EVE. 
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
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