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tgl3
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
5
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Posted - 2011.09.25 23:21:00 -
[31] - Quote
As the writer of one of the blog posts linked in this thread (HI MOM!), I'd like to just state that while Uni pulling the dec was a knee-jerk reaction, it was a suitable one. I fully agree with Poetic that it was a bit of a "oh **** what have we done pull the plug" kind of thing, but I can hardly blame Uni for it. A lot of corps would have done similar things and Uni simply had poor intel on the current ongoings and reacted appropriately, as Kelduum stated at the bottom of the first page of this thread.
RvB and Adopt are both at fault too in that our expectations for a massive fleet brawl once the POS came out of reinforced were simply not conveyed to Uni in any way. Naturally, it's often a "bad move" to inform your enemy that you're planning something, so I think this is a bit of a "meh" issue.
Now, if we look at the other situations addressed in Poetics post we encounter the "Uni never going to RvB/Adopt" issue. I've semi-raged about this in my blog post linked further up in the thread and while I don't agree with the move (or lack thereof) what they did was reasonable considering the number of corporations at war with them. I'm not happy about it, but that doesn't make it less reasonable.
If anyone is looking for further reading into discussions surrounding the POS Bash night, RvB and Uni members have been talking here on the EVE Uni forums and, afaik, butthurt has been (mostly) resolved.
Was what Uni did "right"? In my opinion no, but their reasons and intentions were sound. Limited intel will never produce good results and this was such a case.
tl;dr I am pretty pissed that Uni did what they did, but I can now see the reasons behind it.
I will say that this whole week has given me some very interesting reading and that I really need to buy more popcorn for browsing forums. |
Taedrin
Kushan Industrial
18
|
Posted - 2011.09.25 23:33:00 -
[32] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Tippia wrote:Kelduum Revaan wrote:- The "DecShield thing" was never declared an exploit BS.GM Nythanos wrote:For #2, Using alt corps to increase the cost of wars against your corporation or alliance is prohibited. GǪthat is pretty much as declarative as it gets. Kelduum Revaan wrote:- I'm, not aware of CCP changing their policy for anything If it is suddenly no longer prohibited to use alt corps to increase the cost of wars against your corporation, then they have changed their policy. Kelduum twists the truth constantly (he's hoping no one had those links still.) His job is to put EVE University in a good light, to steer it well away from any controversy it has been or currently is involved in. Don't let Kelduum fool you. He was involved with CCP in getting that policy changed, since it was a benefit for EVE University to have a decshield (and what is good for EVE University, is good for new player retention.) Kelduum is in contact with various CCP Devs and GMs rather frequently (he tends to brag about it in non-specific terms on Mumble quite a lot.)
I'm sorry, but it seems to me that you are guilty of the exact same crime that you acuse Kelduum of here with regards to propaganda.
In EVE, anything goes.
This includes breaking any unwritten understanding about a POS being off limits, along with suddenly backing down from a war dec when the other side does something you don't like.
Now, as for the "dec shield" incident, I seem to recall that CCP was quite adamant that using alt corps to artificially inflate war dec costs was officially deemed an exploit. If CCP changed their policy with regards to this, I would be quite irate about this as it would be similar to CCP deciding that the Imune alliance isn't an exploit after all. |
tgl3
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
5
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Posted - 2011.09.25 23:38:00 -
[33] - Quote
Taedrin wrote:
This includes breaking any unwritten understanding about a POS being off limits
The RvB leadership involved with the POS Bash were never informed that the POS was off limits. In fact it was our understanding it was put into DIckstar mode precisely because it was still fair game. |
Kitty McKitty
In Praise Of Shadows
244
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Posted - 2011.09.25 23:40:00 -
[34] - Quote
Fascinating "Why can't I be different and original, like everybody else?" |
Poetic Stanziel
Arrakis Technology
70
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Posted - 2011.09.25 23:57:00 -
[35] - Quote
Taedrin wrote:I'm sorry, but it seems to me that you are guilty of the exact same crime that you acuse Kelduum of here with regards to propaganda. Of course. :) It's up to you to decide who's propaganda is closer to the truth. With respect to decshields, for instance, a number of people besides me, have already pointed out that Kel has been spinning complete b.s.,
EVE University is fascinating. I like pointing out their hypocrisy. I did it while I was a member and I do it while I'm not. My writing on EVE University has not changed much (the tone has become a tad more aggressive, perhaps.)
What God Wants, God Gets, God Help Us All |
Poetic Stanziel
Arrakis Technology
70
|
Posted - 2011.09.26 00:01:00 -
[36] - Quote
tgl3 wrote:I fully agree with Poetic that it was a bit of a "oh **** what have we done pull the plug" kind of thing, but I can hardly blame Uni for it. Agreed. I just find it annoying that they are trying to spin it into something where the blame for what happened falls squarely on RvB. I don't think you guys did a single thing wrong. You attacked the POS when it was advantageous to you guys. You were under no obligation to inform the Uni of the attack. If they couldn't leave Chribba's little nullsec system to head back to defend, then that is their problem.
Perhaps they shouldn't have thrown all their eggs into Chribba's basket and kept a fleet in reserve to guerilla attack your POS bashing, until the full fleet could return.
What God Wants, God Gets, God Help Us All |
The Apostle
The Black Priests
93
|
Posted - 2011.09.26 00:06:00 -
[37] - Quote
This topic has been moved to Eve-Uni forums. Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. |
Taedrin
Kushan Industrial
20
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Posted - 2011.09.26 00:19:00 -
[38] - Quote
tgl3 wrote:Taedrin wrote:
This includes breaking any unwritten understanding about a POS being off limits
The RvB leadership involved with the POS Bash were never informed that the POS was off limits. In fact it was our understanding it was put into DIckstar mode precisely because it was still fair game.
Hence the difficulties surrounding "unwritten understandings". I have no idea what sort of communication occurred between RvB and EVE Uni. IMO, unless there was an explicit communication forbidding the destruction of POS structures then RvB is in the 'moral' clear - at least as far as EVE morals go. Likewise, so long as there was no explicit communication promising that EVE Uni would never withdraw the dec, then EVE Uni is also in the clear.
Or in other words, the only thing I am upset about is the allegation of EVE Uni continuing to do their dec shield. I REALLY don't like it how changes in CCP policy are not made public knowledge. In fact, maybe I should start a thread complaining about CCP's lack of public communication regarding what is allowed and what isn't allowed. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
207
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Posted - 2011.09.26 00:21:00 -
[39] - Quote
Taedrin wrote:In fact, maybe I should start a thread complaining about CCP's lack of public communication regarding what is allowed and what isn't allowed. Do it. Regardless of the details of this case, it's been needed forGǪ ohGǪ roughly forever or so. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Gregor Palter
56
|
Posted - 2011.09.26 02:26:00 -
[40] - Quote
Poetic StanzielD wrote:on't let Kelduum fool you. He was involved with CCP in getting that policy changed, since it was a benefit for EVE University to have a decshield (and what is good for EVE University, is good for new player retention.) Kelduum is in contact with various CCP Devs and GMs rather frequently (he tends to brag about it in non-specific terms on Mumble quite a lot.)
Without being part of this whole mess, or even agreeing with the majority of what the OP has presented us, the bolded bit is truth.
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Poetic Stanziel
Arrakis Technology
70
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Posted - 2011.09.26 03:03:00 -
[41] - Quote
Kelduum Revaan wrote:A recent EN24 story which fell for some trolling was attacked by him for accepting made up information and mis-quotes as truth. There were no misquotes in that story, it was entirely made-up information. Whereas I'm actually quoting from your forums and Twitter.
What God Wants, God Gets, God Help Us All |
Poetic Stanziel
Arrakis Technology
70
|
Posted - 2011.09.26 03:05:00 -
[42] - Quote
Gregor Palter wrote:Poetic StanzielD wrote:on't let Kelduum fool you. He was involved with CCP in getting that policy changed, since it was a benefit for EVE University to have a decshield (and what is good for EVE University, is good for new player retention.) Kelduum is in contact with various CCP Devs and GMs rather frequently (he tends to brag about it in non-specific terms on Mumble quite a lot.) Without being part of this whole mess, or even agreeing with the majority of what the OP has presented us, the bolded bit is truth. He's said as much on Mumble. Again, he likes to brag to his students the level of contact he has with CCP. It is the standard (and historical) part of his "What is the Decshield?" speech on voice comms when a new player asks. What God Wants, God Gets, God Help Us All |
The Apostle
The Black Priests
93
|
Posted - 2011.09.26 07:05:00 -
[43] - Quote
Quote:Again, he likes to brag to his students the level of contact he has with CCP. It is the standard (and historical) part of his "What is the Decshield?" speech on voice comms when a new player asks.
Personally, I would expect Eve-Uni to have good comms with CCP. They do a great job of getting noobs into game and learning about it, they have a pretty decent wiki for anyone to use and they are run as a fairly professional outfit. Notwithstanding the time they have been around.
I also note the statement that "the decshield speech" is given "when a player asks"... Seems fair to me. That's usually the best time to talk.
And one thing for sure, "decshield" would be of benefit somewhat to Eve-Uni. Not to cost the enemy so much as it prevents 2-bit, 3 player corps from wasting everyone's time with mindless war-decs. Eve-Uni has a job to do.
My advice son. Move on. You will grow much stronger for this. Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. |
Vyl Vit
Cambio Enterprises
48
|
Posted - 2011.09.26 07:11:00 -
[44] - Quote
Oh please. Need I remind you? It takes an intelligent person to do something stupid. If a stupid person does something stupid, he/she is just being "normal."
Apply this simple truth to CCP. Add to that; smart, and intelligent aren't the same things. A person not as intelligent as another can be a lot smarter. Intelligence is merely a potential.
Since we're talking about CCP here, you can drop the intelligence, and smart things there. CCP's problem is their game has grown past their comprehension on a fundamental level. They're just being "normal."
This public service message has been brought to you by The Intelligence/Stupidity Conundrum Study Society. All rights reserved. Please direct all comments to Tippia since my mailbox is full and I'm too lazy to empty it.
To her it doesn't matter much.-á It's chasms have been leapt, and she leans upon the skepticism of her chosen fate. |
Steph Wing
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
47
|
Posted - 2011.09.26 07:52:00 -
[45] - Quote
As a TGRAD member and Uni alum, I'd be thoroughly dismayed if any of the accusations levelled in this blog were true.
But if Kelduum says they're not, I'm inclined to take his word for it. |
Darian Reymont
EVE University Ivy League
6
|
Posted - 2011.09.26 09:50:00 -
[46] - Quote
This past week I have watched as miscommunication and false assumption conspired to ruin what was proving to be an enjoyable event. I rarely reply in these threads because Poetic sets them up specifically to misrepresent the facts and twist the truth, but given that it was miscommunication that spawned the issues outlined in this thread, it seems only fair that I at least attempt to clarify the situation.
First off I can say without question that I hold no anger or resentment towards RvB for their actions. It is my opinion that if we did not want the POS shot at, we should have taken it down. Not only did we not do so, but we specifically set up the POS to be as annoying as possible for whomever attacked it. Given the same opportunity in reverse, I would have certainly attacked a RvB POS, and do not blame them one iota for attacking ours. Likewise, I do not blame Kelduum for retracting the wardec as a result, as it was the most assured method of protecting our assets. Protecting your assets is not a crime.
I love RvB and what they do, and genuinely thank them for all their efforts in making the past week or so incredibly exciting and enjoyable for all our members. We would have loved to have taken the fight to their turf more often, but they were not the only group we were at war with. Hopefully we can build on this event in the future and avoid a repeat of the same issues.
With regards to the new decshield, as far as I am aware, we submitted a new idea for it to CCP in May of this year requesting clarification on whether or not it would be considered an exploit. The primary goal was to discourage the sort of frivolous wardecs we had been experiencing at the time. Contrary to what you may have heard, we do not want to be immune to wardecs, and hoped the new decshield would mean only those who intended to fight would bother paying the inflated fee (this has had mixed results). This idea was viewed by a senior GM and we were told it was not an exploit. If this represents a reversal in CCP policy, which the link provided earlier seems to indicate, that had little to do with us beyond the fact that we asked the question. Director of Human Resources EVE University |
Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
65
|
Posted - 2011.09.26 16:37:00 -
[47] - Quote
This is why you make wars mutual.
/thread |
Poetic Stanziel
Arrakis Technology
70
|
Posted - 2011.09.26 17:03:00 -
[48] - Quote
Darian Reymont wrote: I do not blame Kelduum for retracting the wardec as a result, as it was the most assured method of protecting our assets. Protecting your assets is not a crime. Retracting the wardec was the right thing to do to protect the POS. What got under my skin were many of the Unista accusations that RvB had engaged in dirty tricks and underhanded play. Even from Kelduum, who suggested that RvB should have informed him that they were going to attack the POS. (When Silentbrick decided to put up an SBU in Russian sov space a couple months ago, did he inform the russkies of his intentions beforehand?)
RvB did nothing wrong, and used the Uni's allegiance to Chribba to their advantage. It was a tactical and strategic coup. They should be congratulated, not castigated.
And we all frame our arguments to serve our message. I do it. You do it. Kelduum does it. I backed up my framing with actual quotes. So, whereas you might not have liked how I framed the message, the message itself wasn't inaccurate.
What God Wants, God Gets, God Help Us All |
Kelduum Revaan
EVE University Ivy League
636
|
Posted - 2011.09.26 23:33:00 -
[49] - Quote
Update time:
We had a fleet out, got no activity, went to Chribba-Land, and POS got bashed then. End result: Someone thinks they are being sneaky, even though we'd had a load of fun. Wars are pulled, wartarget people start posting garbage and spamming in E-UNI channels. Very easy to come to a conclusion there, but all the actions (including the spamming) are down to lack of information.
This could easily have been avoided with a "We're coming for the POS!" communication of some kind - no it wouldn't have been 'realistic', but it would have been in the spirit of the previous days of enjoyable PvP, and apparently the reason we didn't see anything at the expected time was that there were some problem forming the joint-op fleet and getting everyone together.
RvB are blue from the Uni once again, and I think the stuff posted on our forums should deal with any E-UNI members who dislike them - after speaking to them, its clear that no hostility was intended, and everything should be back to normal - as is normal, a lack of communication and a few people being annoying reflect badly on the group as a whole.
And, after speaking to The PitBoss again, The 0rphanage have another wardec from us - in the last week between them and RvB we have had more PvP than the last year of wars, and far more fun, and the killboard was starting to get quiet again.
Also, pro-tip: Wars can still be 'retracted' if mutual - mutual just means 'no bills'. Kelduum Revaan CEO, EVE University |
Ladie Scarlet
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
208
|
Posted - 2011.09.26 23:58:00 -
[50] - Quote
Kelduum Revaan wrote:Poetic is a massive troll and attention ***** who's only goal now seems to be to try and make things up and mis-quote people simply to drive traffic to his failed blog This is really everything you need to take away from this thread.
The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet. |
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Vogar Eol
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
0
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Posted - 2011.09.28 05:16:00 -
[51] - Quote
Is it okay to create a "decshield" for your personal research corporation? Taking down and reanchoring POS's is a bother. How exactly does E-Uni do it? Their CEO mentioned changing tactics on how the "decshield" works. Are they making the wars mutal so they do not have to pay a dime, while still driving up dec costs?
If this has been properly petitioned and is considered a feature, I too am interested. |
Tsubutai
The Tuskers
8
|
Posted - 2011.09.28 06:07:00 -
[52] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:stuff You are pretty amazingly bitter and clingy, gj.
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AnkaD
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1
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Posted - 2011.09.28 06:58:00 -
[53] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Darian Reymont wrote: I do not blame Kelduum for retracting the wardec as a result, as it was the most assured method of protecting our assets. Protecting your assets is not a crime. Retracting the wardec was the right thing to do to protect the POS. What got under my skin were many of the Unista accusations that RvB had engaged in dirty tricks and underhanded play. Even from Kelduum, who suggested that RvB should have informed him that they were going to attack the POS. (When Silentbrick decided to put up an SBU in Russian sov space a couple months ago, did he inform the russkies of his intentions beforehand?) RvB did nothing wrong, and used the Uni's allegiance to Chribba to their advantage. It was a tactical and strategic coup. They should be congratulated, not castigated. And we all frame our arguments to serve our message. I do it. You do it. Kelduum does it. I backed up my framing with actual quotes. So, whereas you might not have liked how I framed the message, the message itself wasn't inaccurate.
I am not in any form of command of RvB but I participated in all 3 major fleet ops (okay 100 man fleets may not be major in nullsec but in hisec they are quite uncommon) and if I am not totally mistaken we didn't specifically wait for E-Uni to go to help Chribba. It just happened. Formup of the 0rphanage took longer than expected and so the E-Uni fleet was gone when we were ready to move. It was sad that we didn't get an epic fight this day but I think theer are very little hurt feelings on this particular incident on both sides. Even that the war dec has been cancelled is understandable after the first frustration of having spend hours shooting something without being able to explode it later. The home defense blob on the other hand annoyed me a bit because it exactly moved up to Hek every 2-3 hours and no further. I know of one fleet coming to our space which was sadly during one of our weakest time periods. So there was another fight that didn't come true. Sunday and Tuesday on the other hand were great fun blog *whistles* and hunting unsitas all over hi-sec was entertaining too. I just hope that we can repeat this wardec at one time maybe if it is only us E-Uni will move out of the aldrat pocket more often. |
Cayrenne
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.09.28 07:18:00 -
[54] - Quote
Vogar Eol wrote:Is it okay to create a "decshield" for your personal research corporation? Taking down and reanchoring POS's is a bother. How exactly does E-Uni do it? Their CEO mentioned changing tactics on how the "decshield" works. Are they making the wars mutal so they do not have to pay a dime, while still driving up dec costs?
If this has been properly petitioned and is considered a feature, I too am interested.
When a war is made mutual, it won't be taken into account anymore for the calculation of the subsequent wardec fee. Thusly, the way you do it is to create a "decshield" corp and have it declare war per usual to the main corp, paying regular wardec fee every week . This way, if you get wardecced by an actual hostile corp, they will have to pay more, but subsequently, your weekly dec fee payment that must be paid by the decshield corp is also increased until the actual wardec from the hostile corps cease. |
Poetic Stanziel
Arrakis Technology
70
|
Posted - 2011.09.29 03:57:00 -
[55] - Quote
Kelduum Revaan wrote:RvB are blue from the Uni once again. Exceptionally petty that you reset their standings in the first place.
What God Wants, God Gets, God Help Us All |
JackStraw56
Bayesian Motion Knights of Tomorrow
0
|
Posted - 2011.09.29 05:29:00 -
[56] - Quote
I don't care about most of this thread, but I would like to get clarification from CCP if the "decshield" is in fact an exploit. I was under the impression that it was indeed considered an exploit. |
Wylee Coyote
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2011.09.29 05:38:00 -
[57] - Quote
JackStraw56 wrote:I don't care about most of this thread, but I would like to get clarification from CCP if the "decshield" is in fact an exploit. I was under the impression that it was indeed considered an exploit.
If you don't control over 1000 subscriptions to EVE (aka have ccp's nuts in a sling), then it is an exploit. Look into getting more accounts than your paultry 2~anythinglessthanoverathousand. |
Deen Wispa
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
21
|
Posted - 2011.09.30 05:53:00 -
[58] - Quote
At this point, I'm just trying to figure out who is the more bitter person- Poetic and his grudge against Eve Uni or Damar and his grudge against the Gallente militia. |
Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
9
|
Posted - 2011.09.30 10:56:00 -
[59] - Quote
Deen Wispa wrote:At this point, I'm just trying to figure out who is the more bitter person- Poetic and his grudge against Eve Uni or Damar and his grudge against the Gallente militia.
Poetic is pretty simple to understand.
The uni is a BASIC training corporation.
The rules are for newbies coming into the game, or returnees, that need to learn this game. These rules are there to protect them and to enable the institution, as a whole, to properly train them.
Train them for what? To get the hell out of the uni and find a corporation to join that fits with whatever direction they choose to follow in the game.
It is not here for experienced players - those, like myself, either need to help out or get out. It is here to help new players but to actually HELP them - not force-feed any given path nor direction upon them. They choose the pace at which they advance and only the topics they find of interest from the training programs that are offered.
As such it is a polite institution with a warm friendly environment. VERY comfortable for many being as nobody forces them to do anything.
Well, "baby rules" and topics eventually chafe.
The player outgrows "D-Scan 101", "fleet ops 101", etc. Those players LIKE the social environment and want to stay in the uni but they want the university to CHANGE - to fit THEIR idea of how things should be and keep teaching them, "advancing with them" and that **** isn't gonna happen. The focus is on new people - not more experienced ones and that will remain the focus.
When they figure out that things won't change and that it's getting damned uncomfortable being in a place designed for 2 month old chars.. Some get pissed-off.
Welcome to what's up with Poetic.
They, like THOUSANDS of others, out grew the uni. They like HUNDREDS of others detest that idea. Unlike those hundreds of others, Poetic is throwing a tantrum and screaming fit in blogs and on these forums. (annoying as hell but... Others have come close to this before.)
When someone outgrows something they really like, it can be painful to admit it and move on but that is necessary. The university cannot offer fully comprehensive training in all aspects of EVE but we CAN provide well rounded coverage of the basics and that is what is done.
As I said - pretty easy to understand if explained a bit. |
Tauren Tom
Order of the Silver Dragons Clone Vat
0
|
Posted - 2011.09.30 15:09:00 -
[60] - Quote
I tried... I seriously tried to read this thread and take this topic seriously but failed and fell out of my chair laughing XD
So Basically this is a troll pissing into the wind and E-Uni brought an umbrella right? |
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