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A week after cross training to minmatar from caldari (PURE PVP)

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NoLimit Soldier	Posted - 2010.12.27 02:59:00 - [1] And I must say, Caldari seriously got the short end of the stick when it comes to small ship warfare. This is going to come across as a rant so be prepared for that. What in the hell is the jaguar a better shield active tanker than the hawk is? That is a rhetorical question, I know about the base 75% EM resist which gives an amazing resist profile to the jaguar. But COME ON. It out damages, out runs, and can tank about 90% what the hawk can. Better yet it has a better damage selection profile. I knew the rifter would be the best frigate, and after going pure tech 2 on it it really really is. Speed and damage and tank and no fitting mod..jeeez. But its the rifter, no one argues that. But a jag...outtanking a hawk (counting speed) you just have to joking. I haven't gotten to cruisers or BC yet but I swear if a nanocane can kite a drake at >20km I'm going to seriously say screw caldari.
Aerilis Gallente Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.12.27 04:00:00 - [2] 1. Fly an HML Drake 2. **** up anything smaller than a battleship that comes within 70km of you.
NoLimit Soldier	Posted - 2010.12.27 04:13:00 - [3] Edited by: NoLimit Soldier on 27/12/2010 04:17:44 ? I hope that is a joke or a troll or a jump on the nerf drake bandwagon. In fact I'm positive that almost any of the other battlecruisers (spare the ferox, that thing sucks) would curbstomp you toe to toe in the HML drake. Triple rep myrm, plated cane, etc. But yes the drake is one of only 3 viable solo caldari ships (Drake/Rook/Tengu)
I likegirls Minmatar	Posted - 2010.12.27 04:17:00 - [4] What a shocker, unbalanced ships in eve. I agree that the hawk sucks. I tried fitting one once, and couldn't make anything decent with it.
Aerilis Gallente Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.12.27 04:20:00 - [5] Edited by: Aerilis on 27/12/2010 04:26:17 Well it was a generalization, but the spirit of the post was serious. Want specifics? Take a dual web nano Drake. Anything fast enough to catch it will die. Anything smaller than a BS it can kite to death. It also has the exact same agility as a hurricane, so the nano Drake is very maneuverable. Wait a minute Aerilis! You might say, doesn't that same logic apply to the vaga/cynabal? Why yes it does, except the minmatar kiters can all be shut down with a single tracking disruptor, while the Drake is the most ewar-resistant ship in its class. And yes, I'm a very vocal "nerf drake" proponent. edit: as for toe-to-toe, HAM Drake will beat most BCs out there. Active tanks not included, because active tanks win in solo engagements. Try this mental excercise. 5 vs 5 BCs, all on top of each other. If I had to choose a single BC for my team, I would choose HAM Drakes.
NoLimit Soldier	Posted - 2010.12.27 04:33:00 - [6] Edited by: NoLimit Soldier on 27/12/2010 04:37:58 Edited by: NoLimit Soldier on 27/12/2010 04:34:37 = Quote: Want specifics? Take a dual web nano Drake. Anything fast enough to catch it will die. Anything smaller than a BS it can kite to death. It also has the exact same agility as a hurricane, so the nano Drake is very maneuverable. I disagree, because of the way damage reduction works for missiles most damage would be mitigated during the kiting process. While in turret type ships, chasing them in a straight line is a BAD idea. Please link killmails with your nano drake, I want to see what you have been engaging. As I have never fought one so I can't pretend to know the limitations. I have however fought nano canes with dual web and their GTFO ability is hard to match. Plus it has alot more than just 4 lows so can spare more than just 2 for damage potential. There is a reason you see alot more nano canes than drakes. Quote: edit: as for toe-to-toe, HAM Drake will beat most BCs out there. Active tanks not included, because active tanks win in solo engagements. Try this mental excercise. 5 vs 5 BCs, all on top of each other. If I had to choose a single BC for my team, I would choose HAM Drakes. If you somehow got caught at 0 in a tank/gank HML Drake (not a nano one) you still have 107k EHP, 226 peak recharge, and 510 DPS. I'm not going to make absolute claims without doing more specific math (dont have my usual eft atm), but you'll still be able to take most BCs Pick one and stick with it, you can't say a ship is OP because it is unbeatable to this in this formation and unbeatable to this in this formation. Wait, how in the hell did my thread get jacked into another "drake is OP for the last few years but we are complaining about it now" thread? 2nd Edit: Ok NOW I know why you are sour. http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=11404233 I HONESTLY don't know how he did that, but that shouldn't have happened.
Aerilis Gallente Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.12.27 04:40:00 - [7] Edited by: Aerilis on 27/12/2010 04:46:59 No idea, but you replied to it, so I'm honor bound to reply to you! I don't fly the nanodrake, but search "chatgris" on the killboards. He's a buddy of mine, and he'll engage a fleet solo, kill their tackle and even a bc or two, then get out. As for the various formations, I'll simplify it. nanodrake: Can kill anything that can catch it hamdrake: best close range gank/tank BC hmldrake: best BC for applying damage at range, and even caught at close range does better than most BCs (although it won't be very good at tackling) As for the Ishtar loss, he kited me to death. Was stupid to get caught like that in a failfit Ishtar, I make no excuse for my bad piloting and judgement. I later undocked and killed that same Drake in a myrm though :P
NoLimit Soldier	Posted - 2010.12.27 04:49:00 - [8] Edited by: NoLimit Soldier on 27/12/2010 04:57:08 Edited by: NoLimit Soldier on 27/12/2010 04:51:37 So long as you killed him that is all that matters. Now having said that you proved your own point. You killed him with a mrymidon, a mrym that whooped his ass probably. And there in lies the balance. He kited one ship, got curbstomped by the next. Had he been HAM fit your ishtar could have kited him (assuming you had enough cap recharge on that thing to even fire the MWD :) ) If anything that sounds about right to me. And one more thing: Quote: nanodrake: Can kill anything that can catch it My rook could catch it, and would laugh its ass off while it went down in flames. As could my tengu. And honestly I think my friends sac could catch and tank it, I mean its only ~500 dps with drones. Keep your speed up and you would be surprised what you can do against missile ships. Ok last edit: So it turns out that fit (all level 5) only does 20 DPS to a standard AB jag outside of web range, 47 in and 140/120 with drones. If for whatever reason you lose your drones or the jag is able to pop them quickly enough you are going to lose a drake to said jaguar. Cane has medium neuts + the whole in a line thing while approaching. It is just a better nanoship.
foksieloy Minmatar Universal Army Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.12.27 06:46:00 - [9] So your t2 and t3 ships can take out a t1 ship? What a shock. Also rook is Caldari. Also, Crow. _______________________ Drink Eau du Nichup«, the taste of heaven. Now available as Nichup Citrus« as well!
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.12.27 07:10:00 - [10] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 27/12/2010 07:13:14 Originally by: NoLimit Soldier Ok last edit: So it turns out that fit (all level 5) only does 20 DPS to a standard AB jag outside of web range, 47 in and 140/120 with drones. If for whatever reason you lose your drones or the jag is able to pop them quickly enough you are going to lose a drake to said jaguar. The Jaguar doesnt have the dps to seriously hurt the Drake. Even a standard buffer Drake will tank it on passive recharge easily. The damage output you are quoting is wrong, a webbed AB Jag will take around 100 dps from missiles alone. And it is gonna be webbed if you have a web, since it has to be at around 1500m to apply meaningful but still insufficient damage. And then, most Jaguars have MWD fits, some dualprop fits, pure AB fits are kinda uncommon. TL;DR: worst case Jaguar dies after 1.5 minutes, best case Jaguar dies after 20 seconds.

Zarbane	Posted - 2010.12.27 08:03:00 - [11] Could someone post the typical fit of a nano cane?
afkalt	Posted - 2010.12.27 09:38:00 - [12] Originally by: NoLimit Soldier But COME ON. It out damages, out runs, and can tank about 90% what the hawk can. Better yet it has a better damage selection profile. I suspect the hawk is "expected" to range tank to a degree, it can lob missiles over 55km
NoLimit Soldier	Posted - 2010.12.27 20:16:00 - [13] The reading comprehension skills in this forum are TERRIBLE. Quote: So your t2 and t3 ships can take out a t1 ship? What a shock. Also rook is Caldari. Also, Crow. This was a response to the "nothing that can catch it can kill it" I know you're trying to be witty but you don't do it well. Also crow couldn't kill it. Quote: The Jaguar doesnt have the dps to seriously hurt the Drake. Even a standard buffer Drake will tank it on passive recharge easily. The damage output you are quoting is wrong, a webbed AB Jag will take around 100 dps from missiles alone. And it is gonna be webbed if you have a web, since it has to be at around 1500m to apply meaningful but still insufficient damage. Site source please, I was using EFT dps graphs with all level 5 skills. Also while the jag may not be able to break a buffer drake, it can break the nano drake which is what we were talking about (but it will be a WHILE) and this wasn't meant to come across as a 1vs1 thing, only to prove a big difference between canes and drakes for nanoing. Quote: I suspect the hawk is "expected" to range tank to a degree, it can lob missiles over 55km You quoted expected and I appreciate that. The problem is the damage reduction done by speed, it is just such a deal breaker on making it viable.
Kruger81 Caldari Hellhounds.	Posted - 2010.12.27 20:43:00 - [14] Originally by: NoLimit Soldier But a jag...outtanking a hawk (counting speed) you just have to joking. Try a Harpy, Good tank (avtive and passive) Awsome dps Up to 10km range with nutrons and null, and decent AF dps at that range.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.12.27 21:08:00 - [15] When it comes to solo or mini-gang PvP there is nothing better than Minmatar at present, this is what you are realising. Once you start adding gang members the picture changes quite significantly. Both Amarr (superior damage/projection) and Caldari (ECM/midslots galore) come into play with a vengeance leaving the Gallente on the side-lines begging the referee to allow blasters to have some fun too. PS: Nano-cane will barely be able to break the passive recharge on a ****-fit Drake from 20km out and speed wont save a BC from heavy missiles. Best bet is to go balls-in and rely on a jam or two from drones to live through it.
NoLimit Soldier	Posted - 2010.12.27 21:21:00 - [16] Quote: PS: Nano-cane will barely be able to break the passive recharge on a **-fit Drake from 20km out and speed wont save a BC from heavy missiles. I didn't mean for "cane being a better nano-ship" to mean that it would beat a nano-drake. This is getting annoying having to explain everything. It has a better range of favorable engagements** than a drake due to the way missile damage is calculated as well as being more effective within point range AND having neuts.
Tony SoXai	Posted - 2010.12.27 21:43:00 - [17] Edited by: Tony SoXai on 27/12/2010 21:45:04 What about the goddamn harpy? Blaster uber dps and tank or rail with super tracking good range and quite decent damage. Harpy >> very good frigate. **** a harpy can use rails and still outtank and outdps a jaguar = use blasters and you've got yourself a pwnmobile whose range on blasters is nothing to laugh at. SML crow is pretty wicked. Kistune is second best EAS. Kestrel is win, merlin is win. Spit on you for crosstraining minmatar. Hookbill.... Spit spit spit on you.
NoLimit Soldier	Posted - 2010.12.27 21:57:00 - [18] Quote: What about the goddamn harpy? Blaster uber dps and tank or rail with super tracking good range and quite decent damage. Harpy >> very good frigate. **** a harpy can use rails and still outtank and outdps a jaguar = use blasters and you've got yourself a pwnmobile whose range on blasters is nothing to laugh at. SML crow is pretty wicked. Kistune is second best EAS. Kestrel is win, merlin is win. Spit on you for crosstraining minmatar. Hookbill.... Spit spit spit on you. My orginal complaint was how the jag can pretty much active tank on par with a hawk, a ship DESIGNED for active shield tanking. As well as out damage it and out run it. Yes the harpy is ok, I never said otherwise. SML crow....I have used this for a while and other than harassment I couldn't do much with it. In a place without gates and stations maybe but doesn't work well where I'm at. Kistune being the best EAF? Who cares, EAF suck. Use a blackbird. Kestrel IS NOT WIN by any stretch of the imagination. I have 2 solo T2 fit rifter kills in my kestrel and the ONLY reason I won was I OH the burner to kite a little longer and he didn't. Equal pilots = dead kestrel. And merlin is just all tank and not much else. Can't hang on to anything it can kill. Hookbill...Yea I love that ship. So you get points here.
OMG Hai11	Posted - 2010.12.27 22:08:00 - [19] The problem with Caldari isn't that they suck because they don't. It's that forum whiners demand that Caldari suck.
Dorian Tormak	Posted - 2010.12.27 22:11:00 - [20] Originally by: OMG Hai11 The problem with Caldari isn't that they suck because they don't. It's that forum whiners demand that Caldari suck. This.

NoLimit Soldier	Posted - 2010.12.27 22:17:00 - [21] Quote: The problem with Caldari isn't that they suck because they don't. It's that forum whiners demand that Caldari suck. And yet there are all the nerf drake threads...
OhNoes1	Posted - 2010.12.27 22:24:00 - [22] Originally by: NoLimit Soldier Quote: The problem with Caldari isn't that they suck because they don't. It's that forum whiners demand that Caldari suck. And yet there are all the nerf drake threads... Exactly. People want Caldari to suck so they can keep flying nothing but minnie and Amarr.
NoLimit Soldier	Posted - 2010.12.27 22:25:00 - [23] Quote: Exactly. People want Caldari to suck so they can keep flying nothing but minnie and Amarr. I fly 95% caldari and I still think they suck :)
Naxias Pod Liberation Authority	Posted - 2010.12.27 23:28:00 - [24] Originally by: Aerilis Edited by: Aerilis on 27/12/2010 04:46:59 I don't fly the nanodrake, but search "chatgris" on the killboards. He's a buddy of mine, and he'll engage a fleet solo, kill their tackle and even a bc or two, then get out. Last I saw, chatgris was a blobber. Has he reformed?
Aerilis Gallente Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.12.28 00:26:00 - [25] Originally by: Naxias Originally by: Aerilis Edited by: Aerilis on 27/12/2010 04:46:59 I don't fly the nanodrake, but search "chatgris" on the killboards. He's a buddy of mine, and he'll engage a fleet solo, kill their tackle and even a bc or two, then get out. Last I saw, chatgris was a blobber. Has he reformed? You might be surprised to hear he's become a disciple of your in a way. He's replicated your nano Drake fit and he is DESTROYING things with it.
foksieloy Minmatar Universal Army Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.12.28 07:08:00 - [26] Originally by: NoLimit Soldier I know you're trying to be witty but you don't do it well.Also crow couldn't kill it. You sir need to train reading comprehension to at least III. I know int/mem is not what you are specced in atm, but do us all a favour and crosstrain it for a while. _______________________ Drink Eau du Nichup«, the taste of heaven. Now available as Nichup Citrus« as well!
Stalking Mantis Caldari Wolfsbrigade	Posted - 2010.12.28 07:29:00 - [27] Originally by: NoLimit Soldier And I must say, Caldari seriously got the short end of the stick when it comes to small ship warfare. This is going to come across as a rant so be prepared for that. What in the hell is the jaguar a better shield active tanker than the hawk is? That is a rhetorical question, I know about the base 75% EM resist which gives an amazing resist profile to the jaguar. But COME ON. It out damages, out runs, and can tank about 90% what the hawk can. Better yet it has a better damage selection profile. I knew the rifter would be the best frigate, and after going pure tech 2 on it it really really is. Speed and damage and tank and no fitting mod..jeeez. But its the rifter, no one argues that. But a jag...outtanking a hawk (counting speed) you just have to joking. I haven't gotten to cruisers or BC yet but I swear if a nanocane can kite a drake at >20km I'm going to seriously say screw caldari. The Hawk: Assult Ships Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Shield Boost Amount per level ^^ The hawk is not meant to speed tank (not in the minmatar sense of speed tank anyway). So with good shield boosting skills it is no joke. It also has the ability to tailor you ammo damage type (unlike the harpy). That being said I agree Minmatar weapons need to be somehow nerfed. They are insane and It is not uncommon for ships to forgo their natual bonuses to equip auto cannons (i have seen this on gallente and caldari boats) so someone needs to look into this fact. ---------- Deny, Deceive, Defeat For The State
Artemis Rose Clandestine Vector	Posted - 2010.12.28 09:07:00 - [28] Edited by: Artemis Rose on 28/12/2010 09:11:31 Originally by: NoLimit Soldier This is getting annoying having to explain everything. It has a better range of favorable engagements than a drake due to the way missile damage is calculated as well as being more effective within point range AND having neuts. Anything chasing you will take full/nearly damage from HML fire, due to their MWD being on. If they don't have an MWD, how are they going to catch you? The only ships that would get remotely decent damage mitigation against HML fire and that could actually could catch you would be Interceptors and Dramiels. In your mind, how does missile damage gets applied? *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
OhNoes1	Posted - 2010.12.28 09:10:00 - [29] Originally by: NoLimit Soldier Quote: Exactly. People want Caldari to suck so they can keep flying nothing but minnie and Amarr. I fly 95% caldari and I still think they suck :) They don't, however brawling is not their strong point. Minnie is generally better there. Caldari tends to favor longer range.
OhNoes1	Posted - 2010.12.28 09:38:00 - [30] Originally by: Stalking Mantis That being said I agree Minmatar weapons need to be somehow nerfed. They are insane and It is not uncommon for ships to forgo their natual bonuses to equip auto cannons (i have seen this on gallente and caldari boats) so someone needs to look into this fact. That's mostly because hybrids suck.



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