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Removing Local.

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Mibad Sickle Moon	Posted - 2010.12.28 22:50:00 - [1] Edited by: Mibad on 28/12/2010 22:53:19 And replace it with constellation local. Good or Bad?
Anhenka Minmatar Bite me inc. Narwhals Ate My Duck	Posted - 2010.12.28 22:53:00 - [2] in before edit adding content: NO, BAD DOG! Go post your idea's on one of the other 3000 No Local threads instead of filling up the forum with repeat threads.
Ephemeron The Dirty Dozen	Posted - 2010.12.29 00:10:00 - [3] Local nerf is inevitable - if and only if CCP still got a hardcore bone in their carebear body. It is the most logical thing to do for taking the game to new level, making the game fresh again. Time is against us tho, CCP keep getting softer, more carebearish. If this issue isn't pushed in next 1-2 years, it'll be too late for sure. So everyone should keep pushing, reminding CCP what this game is all about, and the niche market it was designed for.
DrDooma	Posted - 2010.12.29 00:48:00 - [4] In my mind, you either make all systems 1,000km to 2,000km single grid or keep local. By removing local the only thing you do is remove playerÆs ability to make strategic decisions. You can be sitting in a system with 1000 people spamming scan button every 3 seconds and still not have clue about whatÆs going on. If you think this will somehow make PVP better, you are mistaking. You will spend most of your time warping around empty systems looking for something to shoot. You will also create an army of trial alts that will sit a few hundred of every gate and logoff main at the first sign of trouble.
Ephemeron The Dirty Dozen	Posted - 2010.12.29 01:29:00 - [5] Originally by: DrDooma If you think this will somehow make PVP better, you are mistaking. You will spend most of your time warping around empty systems looking for something to shoot. Believe it or not but that's how I spend most of my time in 0.0 already. At least with no local, I have a chance, just a chance, not to be scouted and reported in shared intel channel of local alliances as soon as I enter their region. And I don't need every carebear in 0.0 announcing my presence to entire region by drag and dropping my name from local chat into intel chat.
Niklas	Posted - 2010.12.29 04:58:00 - [6] Local can go if there are significant improvements to dscan, like continuous scanning, IFF, cloaks showing up on dscan(but can't be probed), and rats get omni damage/omni resists. You want less warning? I can get down with that. I'll want pve fits that aren't totally gimped for pvp and rats that will switch to new threats in exchange. And a dscan that doesn't require constant clicking.
Eidrich Tal	Posted - 2010.12.29 06:21:00 - [7] Edited by: Eidrich Tal on 29/12/2010 06:21:24 @OP Not exactly the strongest argument, considering this would singlehandedly cripple intel in ALL of 0.0 and low sec. Unless you provide some kind of argument for balancing, this is just a troll thread.
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2010.12.29 07:11:00 - [8] Originally by: Eidrich Tal Edited by: Eidrich Tal on 29/12/2010 06:21:24 @OP Not exactly the strongest argument, considering this would singlehandedly cripple intel in ALL of 0.0 and low sec. Unless you provide some kind of argument for balancing, this is just a troll thread. Why do you feel a battlefield requires 100% correct, instant intelligence for zero effort? --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up.
Eidrich Tal	Posted - 2010.12.29 07:39:00 - [9] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Why do you feel a battlefield requires 100% correct, instant intelligence for zero effort? Local only gives you numbers, it doesn't tell you what ships they're flying. You still have to scout to find out what you're up against. So I wouldn't exactly call that zero effort. I don't think it's unreasonable to know that there are non-blues in system. So, yeah having 100% accurate numbers in local is good, it's not like it's telling me each of their fits.
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2010.12.29 12:25:00 - [10] Originally by: Eidrich Tal Originally by: Infinity Ziona Why do you feel a battlefield requires 100% correct, instant intelligence for zero effort? Local only gives you numbers, it doesn't tell you what ships they're flying. You still have to scout to find out what you're up against. So I wouldn't exactly call that zero effort. I don't think it's unreasonable to know that there are non-blues in system. So, yeah having 100% accurate numbers in local is good, it's not like it's telling me each of their fits. Why do you feel a battlefield requires 100% correct, instant intelligence for zero effort? I'm sure its good to know instantly who is in a system but that wasn't the question. Why do you feel you deserve it without some effort - scouts, scanning etc? --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up.

Jaari Val'Dara Caldari Atomic Zeppelins BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2010.12.29 12:40:00 - [11] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Originally by: Eidrich Tal Originally by: Infinity Ziona Why do you feel a battlefield requires 100% correct, instant intelligence for zero effort? Local only gives you numbers, it doesn't tell you what ships they're flying. You still have to scout to find out what you're up against. So I wouldn't exactly call that zero effort. I don't think it's unreasonable to know that there are non-blues in system. So, yeah having 100% accurate numbers in local is good, it's not like it's telling me each of their fits. Why do you feel a battlefield requires 100% correct, instant intelligence for zero effort? I'm sure its good to know instantly who is in a system but that wasn't the question. Why do you feel you deserve it without some effort - scouts, scanning etc? One question though, what effort you think would be sufficient, to get intel?
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2010.12.29 13:01:00 - [12] Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 29/12/2010 13:02:05 The same amount of effort that it takes me to (1) get past your chokepoint (2) get past all your alliance mates without being reported / attacked / killed (3) get into your system (4) stay alive long enough to kill you without getting ganked by your alliance mates. Hell not even that much I guess. You could try: 1 scouts 2 d-scan 3 having m8 in local willing to assist you if you get attacked. Problem solved, no? --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up.
De'Veldrin Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion	Posted - 2010.12.29 13:17:00 - [13] Just to add my two cents. The issue with removing local completely is two fold. One, people have come to depend on it, so you're going to have a **storm of player angst if you remove it. CCP got away with in in WH space because it was brand new, and they implemented it from the inception of those systems. Everyone accepted that, "Hey this is just how WHs work. If I don't like it, I don't go there." Removing it from places where people already are, and have invested significant amounts of time and ISK, is going to make a lot of people mad. CCP being interested in retaining paying customers, you can be sure they're taking that into account in the decision making process. Second issue: This is going to push a lot of people into high sec, whether it keeps local or not. So all those juicy targets you thought this would unveil for you? Yeah, probably not going to happen. People will get tired of getting ganked without warning, and they'll pack up and move back to someplace where they feel safe. And that, really, is the key. Local makes people feel safe - take that away, and I'd wager about half of them will leave null. I'm not saying that local shouldn't be altered, at least in nullsec, and probably in lowsec. But you have to alter it in a way that people retain the same sense of security, even if it's false, otherwise you're going to have a lot of **ed off players moving back to Jita - and we all know how much we love the lag in Jita. Here are just a couple of issues you'd have to solve if you remove local completely. 1. I'm docked in a station - how do I know if someone is in system who is trying to kill me (especially Wartargets in highsec)? No one likes to be a space pi±ata. 2. I'm looking for my wartargets - how can I find them without spending the entire wardec flying around looking for someone to shoot. Keep in mind, local cuts both ways. I could see making it a sov upgrade in nullsec - if you want the instant intelligence, pay for the infrastructure to support it. --Vel I'm more of a care-badger.
Jaari Val'Dara Caldari Atomic Zeppelins BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2010.12.29 13:19:00 - [14] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 29/12/2010 13:02:05 The same amount of effort that it takes me to (1) get past your chokepoint (2) get past all your alliance mates without being reported / attacked / killed (3) get into your system (4) stay alive long enough to kill you without getting ganked by your alliance mates. Hell not even that much I guess. You could try: 1 scouts 2 d-scan 3 having m8 in local willing to assist you if you get attacked. Problem solved, no? 1. Scouts? Good luck finding someone willing to sit 23/7 on the gate. 2. D-scan would need to be updated, currently it doesn't say if some ship is hostile or not. 3. Thats the whole other deal. First, I asked about intelligence, not defense. Second, until all rats get sleeper AI, the friend would almost always be too late. I for one would prefer for black ops to get a new ability. Local hacking or something similar. After covert cyno is lit, black ops pilot is able to hack the system on the other end and make it that after someone is bridged in or black ops himself jumps in, they are not shown in local for some limited amount of time, like 1 minute.
Total Disaster Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.12.29 13:51:00 - [15] Edited by: Total Disaster on 29/12/2010 13:56:22 just change it WH system (show on local when talking) and add this http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=973727&page=1&sid=73762728
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2010.12.29 13:54:00 - [16] Originally by: De'Veldrin Just to add my two cents. The issue with removing local completely is two fold. One, people have come to depend on it, so you're going to have a **storm of player angst if you remove it. CCP got away with in in WH space because it was brand new, and they implemented it from the inception of those systems. Everyone accepted that, "Hey this is just how WHs work. If I don't like it, I don't go there." Removing it from places where people already are, and have invested significant amounts of time and ISK, is going to make a lot of people mad. CCP being interested in retaining paying customers, you can be sure they're taking that into account in the decision making process. Second issue: This is going to push a lot of people into high sec, whether it keeps local or not. So all those juicy targets you thought this would unveil for you? Yeah, probably not going to happen. People will get tired of getting ganked without warning, and they'll pack up and move back to someplace where they feel safe. And that, really, is the key. Local makes people feel safe - take that away, and I'd wager about half of them will leave null. I'm not saying that local shouldn't be altered, at least in nullsec, and probably in lowsec. But you have to alter it in a way that people retain the same sense of security, even if it's false, otherwise you're going to have a lot of ed off players moving back to Jita - and we all know how much we love the lag in Jita. Here are just a couple of issues you'd have to solve if you remove local completely. 1. I'm docked in a station - how do I know if someone is in system who is trying to kill me (especially Wartargets in highsec)? No one likes to be a space pi±ata. 2. I'm looking for my wartargets - how can I find them without spending the entire wardec flying around looking for someone to shoot. Keep in mind, local cuts both ways. I could see making it a sov upgrade in nullsec - if you want the instant intelligence, pay for the infrastructure to support it. Yeah it'll ** people off because they're used to be 100% safe in 0.0. Removing people from null is a really good idea. There are too many people there. Only the brave, foolish or those that are prepared to enter the most dangerous space in the game we're supposed to be out there. It was supposed to be deep dangerous space, not 'the burbs'. 1. Space windows :) 2. Locator agents. Scouts. One thing your not counting on is the very fact it cuts both ways. It will be easier for decced targets to evade you which will make them less likely to dock up and hide. Can't kill a docked up target, or one that's logged off or left corp. Corporate spies, utilization of killboards, finding out where a particular person missions, locations of POS, PI sites. --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up.
De'Veldrin Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion	Posted - 2010.12.29 14:26:00 - [17] Edited by: De''Veldrin on 29/12/2010 14:25:59 Originally by: Infinity Ziona Yeah it'll **** people off because they're used to be 100% safe in 0.0. Removing people from null is a really good idea. There are too many people there. Only the brave, foolish or those that are prepared to enter the most dangerous space in the game we're supposed to be out there. It was supposed to be deep dangerous space, not 'the burbs'. 1. Space windows :) 2. Locator agents. Scouts. One thing your not counting on is the very fact it cuts both ways. It will be easier for decced targets to evade you which will make them less likely to dock up and hide. Can't kill a docked up target, or one that's logged off or left corp. Corporate spies, utilization of killboards, finding out where a particular person missions, locations of POS, PI sites. I don't disagree with you on any particular point - I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here. Personally, the delayed local in WHs doesn't particularly bother me. I also agree that nullsec should be the most dangerous space in the game, not some of the safest. Unfortunately, you're dealing with a lot of inertia here. It's going to take either some hefty compromising or some very fast footwork to make local go away, even in nullsec, never mind anywhere else. Edit: +1 for space windows. --Vel I'm more of a care-badger.
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2010.12.29 15:35:00 - [18] To be honest, I don't see them removing local ever. I think its a permanent part of EvE. --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up.
De'Veldrin Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion	Posted - 2010.12.29 17:30:00 - [19] Originally by: Infinity Ziona To be honest, I don't see them removing local ever. I think its a permanent part of EvE. I think you're probably right, but that won't stop people from asking for it. --Vel I'm more of a care-badger.
Lan Staz	Posted - 2010.12.29 18:52:00 - [20] This has probably been suggested and shot down previously, but here goes... Pilots/ships could only show up in local once "detected" in the system. Detection happens when... 1. You are docked in a station 2. You are uncloaked on grid with a station, gate or POS for more than a certain amount of time 3. You engage in combat, mining, missions, hacking, PI, salvaging, etc. 4. You have probes out for more than a certain amount of time (probably longer than with #2) 5. You speak in local chat (obviously) The detection time threshold would be based on the sec status of the system, maybe varying from 0.5s in 1.0 to 5s in 0.0 systems. There could even be modules that you can fit to ships to extend this somewhat. The general idea is to make it difficult, but not impossible, to operate in a system without appearing in local chat.

leich Amarr bish bash bosh	Posted - 2010.12.30 09:41:00 - [21] Bad thread Very bad thread. Now got sit in a corner and think about what your are saying. It would criple PVP to remove it. a Good example of this is worm whole space. You can spend weeks in there without ever finding someone else. not because they arnt there just because there is no local.
Dossie Kielle Clan Kielle	Posted - 2010.12.30 09:46:00 - [22] I have just one thing to say about this: NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO and NO. Bad thread, evil thread. Purge it with fire~!
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2010.12.30 14:10:00 - [23] Originally by: leich Bad thread Very bad thread. Now got sit in a corner and think about what your are saying. It would criple PVP to remove it. a Good example of this is worm whole space. You can spend weeks in there without ever finding someone else. not because they arnt there just because there is no local. Lol. Weeks. Try deploying a probe and scanning or use D-Scan? If you can't find an uncloaked ship in space within 10 seconds of entering the wh your doing something very wrong. Weeks .... --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up.
Nosferatu Zodd	Posted - 2010.12.30 14:53:00 - [24] Edited by: Nosferatu Zodd on 30/12/2010 14:53:13 Read my signature (click) ______________________________________________ [Detection of ships ... a different concept]
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2010.12.30 15:58:00 - [25] Removing local would help making EVE feel "bigger" again, but ultimately, they need to add a few 1000 more systems to the map (not WH). The argument that it would be even harder to find PVP is not valid since nowdays travel is much faster due to many features added over the years (WTZ, jump clones, jump bridges...), perhaps the map can made to update faster as well so you can actively seek zones with combat while it still happens. How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming


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