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Salvage thieves

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Kharylien Gallente Masked Rider Project	Posted - 2010.12.30 01:37:00 - [31] Originally by: Wolf Spyder Mission running isnt a risk free profession. I get shot at, webbed, jammed, vamped, and sometimes popped. In fairness, I got blown up alllll the time running missions... when I was a newbie. Man, I lost SO MANY frigates, a few Catalysts, and even a good few Vexors. Of course, this is back in the day when it made sense to me to have a shield booster, an armour repper AND a hull repper fitted, and when I got in trouble I'd afterburner away, heal up and then charge back into the fray. By the time I was running L4s I'd done some work on learning how to play - even got some advice on the forums and from a very nice person who talked to me in-game and explained the basics of how to fit a ship properly. Running L4s isn't risky for me any more. Sometimes, if I screw up, they get briefly a bit hairy, but I haven't lost a ship in forever - and even if I did, my mission ship would cost me about 60 million isk to replace, and I'll make far more than that on L4s before I lose another one. It's a profitable activity that can be done in a T1 battleship if it's T2 fit. Forget risk/reward, ninja salvagers have a tougher curve for EFFORT/reward. (Sure, I deny them their reward, but I don't mission that fast, and I do actually want my salvage. I'm playing a game, not hyperfast grinding, and collecting salvage is part of what I want to do.)
Mel Lifera Gallente Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.12.30 06:03:00 - [32] Originally by: Wolf Spyder Edited by: Wolf Spyder on 29/12/2010 19:16:25 Mission running isnt a risk free profession. It is if your agent is in the Archives division.
Princess Bride Caldari Corripe Cervisiam Trade Consortium	Posted - 2010.12.30 15:15:00 - [33] Quick vote. Which do you have more respect for: 1) A year-old player making 50m/hr doing L4s handed to him on a platter by an NPC via bookmark, using mission reports so he knows exactly what to expect, whining about the guy below or; 2) A weeks-old player who has learned how to probe down missioners, found the guy above, warped in not sure if he's flying into a hornet's nest of red, for a chance at making a couple mill for books. Sorry but I'd rather have beers with the second guy. He's out there taking risks and pushing the envelope with very limited SP, limited game knowledge, competing with real players instead of NPCs with a walk-through. Best of all he's extracting bear tears in week one or two which is awesome. Ninjas are cool. Missioners are boring. "The OTHER PLEX is on the OTHER side of the contract. Right click to flip it over."
Enord Loej Caldari Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2010.12.30 16:54:00 - [34] Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. CCP should at least be consistent. There is no logical difference between "wrecks in space" and "items in wrecks in space". But stealing an item from a wreck will flag you, but stealing salvage from a wreck will not. To clarify, stealing a wreck from a wreck and stealing a armor plate from a wreck are the same thing, but in EVE they are treaty differently.
Damien Grammaticus	Posted - 2010.12.30 17:25:00 - [35] Originally by: Enord Loej CCP should at least be consistent. There is no logical difference between "wrecks in space" and "items in wrecks in space". But stealing an item from a wreck will flag you, but stealing salvage from a wreck will not. To clarify, stealing a wreck from a wreck and stealing a armor plate from a wreck are the same thing, but in EVE they are treaty differently. Of course there is a difference and that CCP Prism X quote highlights it. The item in the wreck already has a certain value associated with it. Nothing else needs to be done but take that item and place it in your cargo. The wreck itself has no value. You cannot just take it and place it in your cargo. You need to turn that wreck into something valuable utilizing a skill, a module and time and even with this there is only a chance you will get something. That's a pretty clear difference in that process, the same process shared by the other mini-professions as well as mining. You can say you don't like that difference and wish it wasn't there, but you can't say there isn't a difference. The thing that isn't logical imo is wreck ownership and tractor beam behavior. Ignoring the general illogical bit of the ownership making a tractor beam not work (huh?), if the wreck is a free-for-all for salvage, why not for tractoring? I think this is the only situation like it; anyone can mine that asteroid, hack/salvage/analyze that node, harvest that gas cloud. The wrecks are like these examples only here the target is created through player action (not spawned by the server) and only here does the target have an owner. I understand the game play decision to add flagging for item shenanigans. But if the wreck is really open, why not make the tractoring open, but flag for tractoring a wreck with an item still in it. The real issue seems to be the items, so why not flag specifically for that? Is it longer range tractor scenarios and the griefing potential that led CCP not to do this? Or was this a decision based on coding realities? That aspect I think is the real inconsistency.
Borun Tal Minmatar Space Pods Inc	Posted - 2010.12.30 17:37:00 - [36] Wow, this again? Read what Jaina posted above. Nuff said.
Running River	Posted - 2010.12.30 17:59:00 - [37] I think CCP is trying to balance things and it really doesn't feel fair to either the mission runner or the salvager. (Mission Man): Why can he take my valuable salvage after I spent all that ammo to make it? I should be able to shoot him. (Salvage Man): Why can't I tractor his wrecks? Metal is metal and a tractor should draw metal regardless of the 'owner'. I don't want the can, just the salvage. So what should CCP do? The Mission Man walks in and takes all the aggro and fumes as the salvager picks his wrecks without consequence. What if the rats didn't ignore the salvager? If they had a little better AI a few of the rats could attack the salvager as well, introducing "risk" to his profession without requiring the Mission man to warp out. (and then the ninja cloak wouldn't work either.)
Mr Cleann	Posted - 2010.12.30 18:28:00 - [38] Originally by: Jaina Sunspot Originally by: Mr Cleann Salvaging wreaks = Absolutely 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000% risk free guaranteed protection by concord. Running Missions = Absolutely 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000% risk free guaranteed protection by concord. You're a zero short monkey
Kraal Jarik	Posted - 2010.12.30 18:28:00 - [39] Originally by: Running River (Mission Man): Why can he take my valuable salvage after I spent all that ammo to make it? I should be able to shoot him. (Salvage Man): Why can't I tractor his wrecks? Metal is metal and a tractor should draw metal regardless of the 'owner'. I don't want the can, just the salvage. To the mission runner: get out of mission hubs where lazy so-called ninjas hang out. To the so-called ninjas: If I leave it behind it's all yours. Ask me; chances are I'll say take it. What's the problem?
Mel Lifera Gallente Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.12.30 22:56:00 - [40] Edited by: Mel Lifera on 30/12/2010 22:56:43 Originally by: Kraal Jarik What's the problem? The problem is that most MR's aren't that intelligent. In my own limited experience of course.

Jaina Sunspot Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2010.12.30 23:19:00 - [41] Originally by: Mr Cleann You're a zero short monkey Your one N to many baldy.
ElJo123 Sons Of 0din C0NVICTED	Posted - 2010.12.31 02:51:00 - [42] Originally by: Running River If they had a little better AI a few of the rats could attack the salvager as well If they had a little better AI they'd neut the crap out of the missioner, THEN primary the salvager. (bonus points if they'd make it a stealth fix)
De'Veldrin Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion	Posted - 2010.12.31 03:00:00 - [43] Originally by: Mel Lifera Edited by: Mel Lifera on 30/12/2010 22:56:43 Originally by: Kraal Jarik What's the problem? The problem is that most MR's aren't that intelligent. In my own limited experience of course. Feel free to bring some friends and follow me around when I am actually missioning. I'll even abandon the wrecks so you can tractor them. I haven't salvaged a wreck in high sec since the last Hulkageddon. --Vel I'm more of a care-badger.
Xzar Fyrarr Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.12.31 03:09:00 - [44] I wish they would make me Red for stealing salvage... That way it'd be easier to get people to shoot at me...in highsec that is. ------------------------------------------------ One Cannot Fully Appreciate Peace Until They Have Experienced True Pain. ------------------------------------------------- - Xzar Fyrarr ;
Lady Aja Caldari	Posted - 2010.12.31 06:31:00 - [45] I agree. back in 2004 july, i used to go into 0.0 pick up left over loot that ratters cba collecting and filling my corp coffers. heck in just a inquisitor i filled 3x gsc's I copped a ** load of flak but i didnt care. Originally by:** Princess Bride Quick vote. Which do you have more respect for: 1) A year-old player making 50m/hr doing L4s handed to him on a platter by an NPC via bookmark, using mission reports so he knows exactly what to expect, whining about the guy below or; 2) A weeks-old player who has learned how to probe down missioners, found the guy above, warped in not sure if he's flying into a hornet's nest of red, for a chance at making a couple mill for books. Sorry but I'd rather have beers with the second guy. He's out there taking risks and pushing the envelope with very limited SP, limited game knowledge, competing with real players instead of NPCs with a walk-through. Best of all he's extracting bear tears in week one or two which is awesome. Ninjas are cool. Missioners are boring.
Racket Man	Posted - 2010.12.31 12:45:00 - [46] If you are not smart enough to bring your own salvager then a ninja getting your loot is your fault.Hell I fitted a Noctis just for ninjaing and doing it quick. Ever see a Noctis do 580 m/s? Well I have, and trust it may be quick but it is like stopping a train.
Joel McBeth Caldari Dreddit	Posted - 2011.01.01 01:16:00 - [47] Originally by: Enord Loej Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. CCP should at least be consistent. There is no logical difference between "wrecks in space" and "items in wrecks in space". But stealing an item from a wreck will flag you, but stealing salvage from a wreck will not. To clarify, stealing a item from a wreck and stealing a armor plate from a wreck are the same thing, but in EVE they are treaty differently. Edit: I meant item, not wreck
Gregor Vernof Voodoo Tactical Ghost Syndicate.	Posted - 2011.01.01 01:19:00 - [48] <Yawn> Is it the promise of a New Year that has you all beating this dead, decayed, corpse of a horse again? .. Back to lurking....
Joel McBeth Caldari Dreddit	Posted - 2011.01.01 01:23:00 - [49] Edited by: Joel McBeth on 01/01/2011 01:25:28 Originally by: Damien Grammaticus Originally by: Enord Loej CCP should at least be consistent. There is no logical difference between "wrecks in space" and "items in wrecks in space". But stealing an item from a wreck will flag you, but stealing salvage from a wreck will not. To clarify, stealing a wreck from a wreck and stealing a armor plate from a wreck are the same thing, but in EVE they are treaty differently. Of course there is a difference and that CCP Prism X quote highlights it. The item in the wreck already has a certain value associated with it. Nothing else needs to be done but take that item and place it in your cargo. The wreck itself has no value. You cannot just take it and place it in your cargo. You need to turn that wreck into something valuable utilizing a skill, a module and time and even with this there is only a chance you will get something. That's a pretty clear difference in that process, the same process shared by the other mini-professions as well as mining. You can say you don't like that difference and wish it wasn't there, but you can't say there isn't a difference. The thing that isn't logical imo is wreck ownership and tractor beam behavior. Ignoring the general illogical bit of the ownership making a tractor beam not work (huh?), if the wreck is a free-for-all for salvage, why not for tractoring? I think this is the only situation like it; anyone can mine that asteroid, hack/salvage/analyze that node, harvest that gas cloud. The wrecks are like these examples only here the target is created through player action (not spawned by the server) and only here does the target have an owner. I understand the game play decision to add flagging for item shenanigans. But if the wreck is really open, why not make the tractoring open, but flag for tractoring a wreck with an item still in it. The real issue seems to be the items, so why not flag specifically for that? Is it longer range tractor scenarios and the griefing potential that led CCP not to do this? Or was this a decision based on coding realities? That aspect I think is the real inconsistency. The act of salvaging is taking an item from a wreck and putting it in your cargohold. The act of looting is taking an item from a wreck and putting it into your cargo hold. They are not logically different. It shouldn't matter if you can magically transport it into your cargohold or if you have to pry it off with a salvager. It doesn't really make sense to consider one thing stealing and then the exact same thing not stealing. That's all I'm saying. Either make both flag you or neither, and they should let you tractor other people's **** too.
Jovan Geldon Gallente Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire	Posted - 2011.01.01 01:53:00 - [50] Edited by: Jovan Geldon on 01/01/2011 01:53:42 Originally by: Joel McBeth The act of salvaging is taking an item from a wreck and putting it in your cargohold. The act of looting is taking an item from a wreck and putting it into your cargo hold With you so far... Originally by: Joel McBeth They are not logically different Oh dear. Stealing loot is a crime because that loot has intrinsic value in its current state. Salvaging a wreck is not a crime because a wreck is worthless, in and of itself. It can be roughly approximated to the difference between stealing food from someone's dinner plate, and rummaging through their trash for leftovers. Originally by: Joel McBeth they should let you tractor other people's **** too. I fully agree. A hunk of metal is a hunk of metal, regardless of who "owns" it.

Enord Loej Caldari Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.01.01 18:18:00 - [51] Edited by: Enord Loej on 01/01/2011 18:18:52
BuzzySonOfButch	Posted - 2011.01.03 11:46:00 - [52] Edited by: BuzzySonOfButch on 03/01/2011 11:48:37 Originally by: Wolf Spyder CCP did a good thing when they finally came a round and criminally flagged individuals that took other peoples loot. How about doing the same thing for wreck salvaging. Or perhaps the wrecks can be rigged with explosives that would do 5k in damage to any would be thief. They salvage the wreck and the bomb explodes in their hold. Causing reverse damage. What ever the case I am getting a bit annoyed with players taking salvage that dont belong to them and the only thing I can do at the time is sit by and watch. It would be nice if CCP would do the same for salvage that they do for containers. it is NERDRAGE like the OP of this post that convinced me to become a fulltime Ninja Looter. Thank you for the job opportunity. Please take your nerdrage outon me the next time i try to bait you into shooting me by stealing every single drop. Love - \\Buz
Bixx Styxx	Posted - 2011.01.03 16:00:00 - [53] Here we go yet again.... I mission all the time, and get ninja salvagers in my missions probably 20% of the time. It's just part of eve, it aint a major problem, never was, and never will be, in fact it provides a bit of excitement in (lets face it) usually mind-numbing missions. The newb ones occasionally die to npc trigger aggro too, which can be entertaining. If you want less ninjas go mission in lowsec, I can tell you from experience there are practically none. The downside is of course you get shot instead, so quit whining. If you want as 'risk free' a profession as possible, go mine an asteroid or play the market.
joe1	Posted - 2011.01.15 13:31:00 - [54] wanna enjoy the game a little? when they come and try to salvage your loot, blow it up just as they approach it, funny as hell!
Khanh'rhh Caldari 269th Mobile Infantry Combat Battalion	Posted - 2011.01.15 20:15:00 - [55] Originally by: Princess Bride Quick vote. Which do you have more respect for: 1) A year-old player making 50m/hr doing L4s handed to him on a platter by an NPC via bookmark, using mission reports so he knows exactly what to expect, whining about the guy below or; 2) A weeks-old player who has learned how to probe down missioners, found the guy above, warped in not sure if he's flying into a hornet's nest of red, for a chance at making a couple mill for books. Sorry but I'd rather have beers with the second guy. He's out there taking risks and pushing the envelope with very limited SP, limited game knowledge, competing with real players instead of NPCs with a walk-through. Best of all he's extracting bear tears in week one or two which is awesome. Ninjas are cool. Missioners are boring. Never stated better. #2 all the way. Convo the Ninja - both times I've done this I've been greatly impressed by the guy on the other end. One is now a corpie and I probably spend more in-game time with him than anyone else. If you're getting Ninja's into your missionspace "20% of the time" then you're either missioning in a hub, which makes you lazy, or missioning at such a slow pace you should probably be mining. Either way, I salute our destroyer-bound wreck munchers .. who else keeps missioners on their toes? Also, CCP, please make all mission rat NPC's have the sleeper / Sansha AI .. please? And random each time? Why do any of you play an MMO if all you do is read mission reports, click 2 buttons, and insta-win? I missioned with a 4-year toon who had mission-ran everyday since he started. It was quite possibly the most tragic experience I've had in gaming to-date.
Kahega Amielden T.R.I.A.D	Posted - 2011.01.15 20:45:00 - [56] Quote: If they had a little better AI a few of the rats could attack the salvager as well Actually, that would be pretty dumb. The salvager is no immediate threat to them, and they know that the chances of the salvager coming to kill them are nil. They probably don't like what the salvager is doing so they'd shoot at him eventually, but certainly not before the person who is killing all of them.
Amaki Mai	Posted - 2011.01.17 22:12:00 - [57] I've only had a ninja looter in a mission of mine once - and the guy was a four YEAR old toon, not a four week old toon. He wasn't some kind of romantic Robin Hood figure - he'd been playing about four times as long as me and could easily be doing his own missions. The only REAL issue I have with Ninja Salvaging is that Salvage takes up such a small amount of m3 that even a Frigate can grab a real haul. If the Ninja Salvager has a cloak field and waits until the room is cleared, then he's making a few million in about 15 minutes whilst protected by Concorde and at zero risk. Not sure why you'd want to have a beer with someone like that, especially. Whilst missions are LOW risk, provided you do your homework, they're not ZERO risk. About the only good thing you can say about Ninja Salvagers is that they're not Can Flippers - although personally I suspect the same sort of people do both.
Corina Jarr	Posted - 2011.01.18 02:09:00 - [58] I'm probably a messed up carebear, but if I see a ninja salvager in my mission, I just set all the wrecks to abandoned so that he can take all the stuff. Its not like my life revolves around getting every cent for my second.
Kesshisan Minmatar	Posted - 2011.01.18 10:12:00 - [59] If I saw a ninja salvager in my rank 4, I'd probably strike up a conversation with him and try to form a deal with him. I'd ask him if he wanted a bunch of rank 4s to salvage, and give him bookmarks of my missions when I was done with them, and ask him to split the profits with me 50/50. Time spent missioning = X isk / hour. Time spent salvaging = Y isk / hour. If I have to mission AND salvage, my max income will be X or Y per hour, whichever is greater. (Oh, and hint hint, it's going to be the missions.) However if I have someone coming along and salvaging and splitting the profits 50/50, then my max income will be ( X + .5 * Y ) / hour. ( X + .5 Y ) / hour > ( X * N% + Y * (100-N%) ) / hour. If he was just doing it to grief me, he'd probably take all the stuff the first time and then laugh at me. I'd just shrug and next time I see him abandon all wrecks. It's not like the majority of income / time from level 4s comes from the wrecks. I will admit that with the Noctis it comes close, and may even pass it on specific missions, but for the most part the bounties, LP store, and standings* are what I'm after. More standings gives me more access to more/better R&D agents, which means more isk for me. In conclusion, I'm a carebear, but I welcome ninja salvagers...even though I've never had one. If they were to salvage my mission I wouldn't feel like I needed* to go back and salvage my old loots. (I have a Final Fantasy complex where I feel I can't leave anything behind, even that one container 150km away which I know only contains 100 Light Bloodclaw missiles.) Additionally I'll try to use the ninja salvagers as a potential profit / hour increase. Why cry about a game mechanic that is permitted? It seems pointless to complain that lasers hurt your ships, so why cry about ninja salvagers being able to salvage your missions?
Hungry Abdul	Posted - 2011.01.18 10:50:00 - [60] Its pathetic that pilots moaning about ninja salvage / wreck theft. This is a game of risk, a game of cause and effect. If everything was protected u might as well go play WOW or something of similar girls-blouse status. Man-up



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