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Wolf Spyder	Posted - 2010.12.29 17:03:00 - [1] CCP did a good thing when they finally came a round and criminally flagged individuals that took other peoples loot. How about doing the same thing for wreck salvaging. Or perhaps the wrecks can be rigged with explosives that would do 5k in damage to any would be thief. They salvage the wreck and the bomb explodes in their hold. Causing reverse damage. What ever the case I am getting a bit annoyed with players taking salvage that dont belong to them and the only thing I can do at the time is sit by and watch. It would be nice if CCP would do the same for salvage that they do for containers.
Azura Noctis Amarr SWARTA Mostly Clueless	Posted - 2010.12.29 17:06:00 - [2] Feel the same way, but most likely won't happen.
Mr Cleann	Posted - 2010.12.29 17:11:00 - [3] It might happen. It took CCP about 2 years before they did that for containers. Hopefully they will go a lot faster with salvage thieves. I had one person try and steal my salvage. when he did he turned red. I almost attacked, the only thing that stopped me was that the red was not blinking. That was very annoying as I was in a Ishtar and they were in a rifter. Concord would have popped the wrong ship. Which means I would have been victimized twice. Once by a player and again by some donut eating NPC law Enforcment agency. Oh I probably would have been vicimized 3 times as the salvage thieves would have most likely take anything that was left from my wreck. Including salvage.......
Jaina Sunspot Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2010.12.29 17:15:00 - [4] Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing." Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit. Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. Per CCP Incognito : Originally by: CCP Incognito Had a chat with some designers this evening. Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private. They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks. (These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.) ------------------------------ Apparently some people have the wrong definition of thief. All the tears in the world won't make that floating garbage yours.
Princess Bride Caldari Corripe Cervisiam Trade Consortium	Posted - 2010.12.29 17:22:00 - [5] Mmmm.. ninja salvage victim tears. This makes me want to dust off the salvage desty and come looking for the OP. For the 10000000th time, this argument has been settled long ago, and ninja salvaging/looting has already nerfed with: 1) loot agg flag. 2) the completely unrealistic property of "other people's metal" being immune to tractor beams. 3) a new ship with ridiculous tractor beam range to make it even easier for missioners to beat out ninjas. Ninja salvage remains one of the best way for days-old chars to make ISK, not to mention dip their feet into PVP. If it wasn't for ninja salvage I would have grown bored of running L1 missions and left EVE before finding out what a beautiful and relatively un-nerfed game it really is. Those who advocate nerfing ninja salvage need to be super-wedgied and shoved in a locker with a pile of dirty undies like the nerfy whiny nerds they are. "The OTHER PLEX is on the OTHER side of the contract. Right click to flip it over."
Mr Cleann	Posted - 2010.12.29 17:30:00 - [6] Edited by: Mr Cleann on 29/12/2010 17:45:17 Edited by: Mr Cleann on 29/12/2010 17:39:25 The same excuse can be said about stealing loot. That it is intended as a mini profession for anyone in eve that wants to do it. I by no means view wreck salvaging as an exploit. However it does give people that want to partake in salvaging other peoples wrecks a zero risk profession. Because the person that generated that wreck can only sit by and do nothing. The risks should be at least simular to the loot containers. There should be risks involved. What is currently going on with salvage, is the exact same thing that went on with loot cans a few years back when people were stealing those. With people being able to choose to abandon the wrecks. It should be reasonable to ask that criminal flagging be allowed for salvaging wrecks that have not been abandond.
ClaritySam	Posted - 2010.12.29 17:37:00 - [7] I see flames in this threads future
Jaina Sunspot Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2010.12.29 17:39:00 - [8] Originally by: Mr Cleann other peoples wrecks Wrecks are not owned. Originally by: Mr Cleann a zero risk profession. Because the person that generated that wreck can only sit by and do nothing. The risks should be at least simular to the loot containers. Their should be risks involved. Lvl 4 Missions are completely risk free. There is not an instance where you will loose a ship if you know what you are doing. There is zero risk whatsoever to doing them. As long as Lvl 4 missions are risk free the RVR argument is not worth the space in the post it takes up. Why should one CCP sanctioned profession be risk free and not the other, and the least profitable of the 2 is the one you are picking on.
Princess Bride Caldari Corripe Cervisiam Trade Consortium	Posted - 2010.12.29 17:40:00 - [9] Originally by: Mr Cleann The same excuse can be said about stealing loot. I agree. There is a logic disconnect here caused by the nerf on stealing loot. Said nerf should be removed immediately. Quote: However it does give people that want to partake in salvaging wother peoples wrecks a zero risk profession. Because the person that generated that wreck can only sit by and do nothing. Or they can use the tractor beams on their Noctis, which gives them an insane advantage over the ninja. Or they can blow up the wrecks. Or they can try to trick the ninja into looting. Or they can warp out and let the NPCs agg on the ninja and kill him or drive him off. So really, "sit by and do nothing" is simply your own lack of imaginative solutions. "The OTHER PLEX is on the OTHER side of the contract. Right click to flip it over."
Mr Cleann	Posted - 2010.12.29 17:42:00 - [10] Quote: Lvl 4 Missions are completely risk free. There is not an instance where you will loose a ship if you know what you are doing. There is zero risk whatsoever to doing them. As long as Lvl 4 missions are risk free the RVR argument is not worth the space in the post it takes up. Why should one CCP sanctioned profession be risk free and not the other, and the least profitable of the 2 is the one you are picking on. I might agree with you but were not talking about lvl 4 missions. were talking about salvaging.
De'Veldrin Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion	Posted - 2010.12.29 17:44:00 - [11] You know what. I am so sick of the whining about this, I hope they give you exactly what you're asking for. I'll toss a salvager on my PvP Hurricane and ***** some killmails. Lord knows my efficiency could use the boost. --Vel I'm more of a care-badger.
Mr Cleann	Posted - 2010.12.29 17:48:00 - [12] Originally by: De'Veldrin You know what. I am so sick of the whining about this, I hope they give you exactly what you're asking for. I'll toss a salvager on my PvP Hurricane and ***** some killmails. Lord knows my efficiency could use the boost. Heres an idea. If it bothers you so much. don't click on the link. Simple isn't it.....
Jaina Sunspot Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2010.12.29 17:49:00 - [13] Originally by: Mr Cleann I might agree with you but were not talking about lvl 4 missions. were talking about salvaging. So you are saying when you accept a Lvl 4 mission or start a mining Laser Cycle other people should be able to shoot you? Not all professions carry risk, Salvaging is one of them. The premise is the wrecks are not owned, changing that, changes it to a criminal profession and it isn't. It is legal and like most other PVE professions risk free. So why are you only complaining about one risk free profession?
Jovan Geldon Gallente Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire	Posted - 2010.12.29 18:40:00 - [14] Originally by: Wolf players taking salvage that dont belong to them Wrecks don't belong to anyone, only the loot in them. Stop whining and salvage faster if you're that bothered.
Calfis Amarr F.R.E.E. Explorer The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.12.29 18:57:00 - [15] Originally by: Mr Cleann Quote: Lvl 4 Missions are completely risk free. There is not an instance where you will loose a ship if you know what you are doing. There is zero risk whatsoever to doing them. As long as Lvl 4 missions are risk free the RVR argument is not worth the space in the post it takes up. Why should one CCP sanctioned profession be risk free and not the other, and the least profitable of the 2 is the one you are picking on. I might agree with you but were not talking about lvl 4 missions. were talking about salvaging. You missed the point here buddy, he is saying if there is something wrong with ninja salvaging being a risk free profession then there is something wrong with mission running being a risk free profession. tl;dr why should mission runners have a risk free profession and not ninja salvagers as well.
Wolf Spyder	Posted - 2010.12.29 19:12:00 - [16] Mission running isnt a risk free profession. I get shot at, webbed, jammed, vamped, and sometimes popped. If thats not risk I have no idea what is. However salvaging wrecks under the protection of concord is a no risk profession. Not to mention a bias one. As it is designed for people that can protect themselves so they have to rely on a npc faction that has uber firing abilities to help out.
HomigoshZur Project Manticore	Posted - 2010.12.29 19:19:00 - [17] Originally by: Wolf Spyder Edited by: Wolf Spyder on 29/12/2010 19:16:25 Mission running isnt a risk free profession. I get shot at, webbed, jammed, vamped, and sometimes popped. If thats not risk I have no idea what is. However salvaging wrecks under the protection of concord is a no risk profession. Not to mention a bias one. As it is designed for people that dont have to protect themselves as they know that Concord will take care of everything using thier uber firing abilities to help out and garner more loot and salvage for them. Salvaging without risk of being attacked by the person that created the wreaks is for weak minded people. It's a weak profession that could use some adjustment to add risk. just because you're bad at missions doesnt mean they have risk
Wolf Spyder	Posted - 2010.12.29 19:24:00 - [18] Originally by: HomigoshZur Originally by: Wolf Spyder Edited by: Wolf Spyder on 29/12/2010 19:16:25 Mission running isnt a risk free profession. I get shot at, webbed, jammed, vamped, and sometimes popped. If thats not risk I have no idea what is. However salvaging wrecks under the protection of concord is a no risk profession. Not to mention a bias one. As it is designed for people that dont have to protect themselves as they know that Concord will take care of everything using thier uber firing abilities to help out and garner more loot and salvage for them. Salvaging without risk of being attacked by the person that created the wreaks is for weak minded people. It's a weak profession that could use some adjustment to add risk. just because you're bad at missions doesnt mean they have risk[/quote LOL I solo lvl 4 missions and sleeper missions. Sleepers take a lot of work though. But occationally just like everyone else i do have my off days.....It's called risk. Sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you.
HomigoshZur Project Manticore	Posted - 2010.12.29 19:26:00 - [19] Originally by: Wolf Spyder Originally by: HomigoshZur Originally by: Wolf Spyder Edited by: Wolf Spyder on 29/12/2010 19:16:25 Mission running isnt a risk free profession. I get shot at, webbed, jammed, vamped, and sometimes popped. If thats not risk I have no idea what is. However salvaging wrecks under the protection of concord is a no risk profession. Not to mention a bias one. As it is designed for people that dont have to protect themselves as they know that Concord will take care of everything using thier uber firing abilities to help out and garner more loot and salvage for them. Salvaging without risk of being attacked by the person that created the wreaks is for weak minded people. It's a weak profession that could use some adjustment to add risk. just because you're bad at missions doesnt mean they have risk[/quote LOL I solo lvl 4 missions and sleeper missions. Sleepers take a lot of work though. But occationally just like everyone else i do have my off days.....It's called risk. Sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you. you make it sound like missions are hard also i want sleeper missions also da bears
Jaina Sunspot Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2010.12.29 19:28:00 - [20] Originally by: Wolf Spyder Mission running isnt a risk free profession. I get shot at, Predictable Dmg Types means it is easy to tank. Originally by: Wolf Spyder webbed, Shoot the Webber, Done. Originally by: Wolf Spyder jammed, More of an annoyance, no problem really. Originally by: Wolf Spyder vamped, So rare it is a joke and even then primary the NOS. Originally by: Wolf Spyder and sometimes popped. That should never happen, ever. Missions of any level are easy as long as you bring what you need and know the spawns. But hey Ninja's who dun kno the spawn die to. Originally by: Wolf Spyder If thats not risk I have no idea what is. PVP for one thing. Originally by: Wolf Spyder However salvaging wrecks under the protection of concord is a no risk profession. So is missioning under Concord if you know what you are doing. Originally by: Wolf Spyder Not to mention a bias one. As it is designed for people that can protect themselves so they have to rely on a npc faction that has uber firing abilities to help out. Yes sitting in a Mission completely protected by Concord while making 50mil an hour blitzing lvl 4's in a Raven at 3 mil SP is a bias profession compared to lower income mining and ninja'ing. Seems mission runners have all the benefits, at least there not whiny about loosing 15% of possible free to all income. I have to alt tab back to Worlds Collide LVL 4 I heard the shield alarm, nothing a few boosts won't handle, it is not like I am in danger.
Mr Cleann	Posted - 2010.12.29 22:14:00 - [21] Originally by: Princess Bride Edited by: Princess Bride on 29/12/2010 17:50:58 Originally by: Mr Cleann The same excuse can be said about stealing loot. I agree. There is a logic disconnect here caused by the nerf on stealing loot. Said nerf should be removed immediately. ---- NOpe said "Nerf" should be expanded to include the rest of the garbage floating in space. Especially if its latched on to by someones tractor beam.
Mr Cleann	Posted - 2010.12.29 22:19:00 - [22] Edited by: Mr Cleann on 29/12/2010 22:20:13 Originally by: Jaina Sunspot Originally by: Wolf Spyder Mission running isnt a risk free profession. I get shot at, Predictable Dmg Types means it is easy to tank. Originally by: Wolf Spyder webbed, Shoot the Webber, Done. Originally by: Wolf Spyder jammed, More of an annoyance, no problem really. Originally by: Wolf Spyder vamped, So rare it is a joke and even then primary the NOS. Originally by: Wolf Spyder and sometimes popped. That should never happen, ever. Missions of any level are easy as long as you bring what you need and know the spawns. But hey Ninja's who dun kno the spawn die to. Originally by: Wolf Spyder If thats not risk I have no idea what is. PVP for one thing. Originally by: Wolf Spyder However salvaging wrecks under the protection of concord is a no risk profession. So is missioning under Concord if you know what you are doing. Originally by: Wolf Spyder Not to mention a bias one. As it is designed for people that can protect themselves so they have to rely on a npc faction that has uber firing abilities to help out. Yes sitting in a Mission completely protected by Concord while making 50mil an hour blitzing lvl 4's in a Raven at 3 mil SP is a bias profession compared to lower income mining and ninja'ing. Seems mission runners have all the benefits, at least there not whiny about loosing 15% of possible free to all income. I have to alt tab back to Worlds Collide LVL 4 I heard the shield alarm, nothing a few boosts won't handle, it is not like I am in danger. Salvaging wreaks = Absolutely 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000% risk free guaranteed protection by concord.
Jaina Sunspot Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2010.12.29 22:21:00 - [23] Originally by: Mr Cleann Salvaging wreaks = Absolutely 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000% risk free guaranteed protection by concord. Running Missions = Absolutely 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000% risk free guaranteed protection by concord.
Riedle Minmatar Paradox Collective Black Legion.	Posted - 2010.12.29 23:09:00 - [24] Edited by: Riedle on 29/12/2010 23:10:32 You can already shoot someone for taking your salvage. Why you would jettison it for someone to take it though, is the question... To what you are really whining about, and that's pilots salvaging your wrecks before you do - well that is not stealing. However, I would support your 'solution' and endorse making people who salvage 'your' wrecks red to you. It will not have the effect that you are looking for but I would move back to high sec for a few weeks after this change was implemented - for sure.
Carnella	Posted - 2010.12.29 23:22:00 - [25] Originally by: Princess Bride 1) loot agg flag; 2) the completely unrealistic property of "other people's metal" being immune to tractor beams; 3) a new ship with ridiculous tractor beam range to make it even easier for missioners to beat out ninjas. Ninja salvager checking in. I do it because, frankly, I'll probably never be running high level missions, and I've got a nice little business going in rig manufacturing, so whenever I can cut out the market as a middleman on my materials supply, I do. The tears of mission runners is only a bonus. Today I saw for the first time a group of players that would rather blow up their wrecks than allow me to salvage them. Crazy. Now nobody gets to salvage them, and what's the point of that? Anyway, rule number 2 is a weird thing to me. If ninja salvaging is a legitimate mini-profession, as CCP has repeatedly made clear, then I think we should be able to tractor unowned wrecks if we can target them first. To have it otherwise is sending a mixed message, and it's probably part of the reason that so many people whine on these forums about people salvaging their wrecks.
Scrapyard Attendant Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.12.29 23:24:00 - [26] This is most likely a troll, but whatever You know you aren't the only person that gets shot by the missioners? Considering salvage ships always have no tank on them, being shot by a few battleships and scrammed in a mission that isnt even yours = risk..
Harrigan VonStudly Original Sin.	Posted - 2010.12.29 23:45:00 - [27] Why is this care bear ** posted here? no one gives a flying ** about your stinking salvage issues. Damn care bears. Always stinking up the joint. Go play WoW with mintchip
Killstealing	Posted - 2010.12.30 00:23:00 - [28] he sure got you guys good eh? I mean, cmon, think, no way this guy is serious... right? Right? RIGHT??
Xia Shianggu	Posted - 2010.12.30 01:21:00 - [29] Originally by: Mr Cleann The same excuse can be said about stealing loot. That it is intended as a mini profession for anyone in eve that wants to do it. Except it can't, because it isn't.
Kharylien Gallente Masked Rider Project	Posted - 2010.12.30 01:26:00 - [30] Originally by: Princess Bride Or they can use the tractor beams on their Noctis, which gives them an insane advantage over the ninja. Or they can blow up the wrecks. Or they can try to trick the ninja into looting. Or they can warp out and let the NPCs agg on the ninja and kill him or drive him off. So really, "sit by and do nothing" is simply your own lack of imaginative solutions. Actually, sitting by and doing nothing is my usual solution. When I do L4s I run in a permatanking Dominix. If a would-be salvage ninja shows up, I pull in my drones, stop shooting, and wait for them to leave, or, yes, warp out. I salvage as I go, so they get 1, 2 wrecks tops. IT'S LIKE IT'S NOT A BIG DEAL AT ALL OR SOMETHING unless you're using crazy faction-fit ships that rip through really fast and then you come back to salvage in which case HTFU what do you care
Kharylien Gallente Masked Rider Project	Posted - 2010.12.30 01:37:00 - [31] Originally by: Wolf Spyder Mission running isnt a risk free profession. I get shot at, webbed, jammed, vamped, and sometimes popped. In fairness, I got blown up alllll the time running missions... when I was a newbie. Man, I lost SO MANY frigates, a few Catalysts, and even a good few Vexors. Of course, this is back in the day when it made sense to me to have a shield booster, an armour repper AND a hull repper fitted, and when I got in trouble I'd afterburner away, heal up and then charge back into the fray. By the time I was running L4s I'd done some work on learning how to play - even got some advice on the forums and from a very nice person who talked to me in-game and explained the basics of how to fit a ship properly. Running L4s isn't risky for me any more. Sometimes, if I screw up, they get briefly a bit hairy, but I haven't lost a ship in forever - and even if I did, my mission ship would cost me about 60 million isk to replace, and I'll make far more than that on L4s before I lose another one. It's a profitable activity that can be done in a T1 battleship if it's T2 fit. Forget risk/reward, ninja salvagers have a tougher curve for EFFORT/reward. (Sure, I deny them their reward, but I don't mission that fast, and I do actually want my salvage. I'm playing a game, not hyperfast grinding, and collecting salvage is part of what I want to do.)
Mel Lifera Gallente Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.12.30 06:03:00 - [32] Originally by: Wolf Spyder Edited by: Wolf Spyder on 29/12/2010 19:16:25 Mission running isnt a risk free profession. It is if your agent is in the Archives division.
Princess Bride Caldari Corripe Cervisiam Trade Consortium	Posted - 2010.12.30 15:15:00 - [33] Quick vote. Which do you have more respect for: 1) A year-old player making 50m/hr doing L4s handed to him on a platter by an NPC via bookmark, using mission reports so he knows exactly what to expect, whining about the guy below or; 2) A weeks-old player who has learned how to probe down missioners, found the guy above, warped in not sure if he's flying into a hornet's nest of red, for a chance at making a couple mill for books. Sorry but I'd rather have beers with the second guy. He's out there taking risks and pushing the envelope with very limited SP, limited game knowledge, competing with real players instead of NPCs with a walk-through. Best of all he's extracting bear tears in week one or two which is awesome. Ninjas are cool. Missioners are boring. "The OTHER PLEX is on the OTHER side of the contract. Right click to flip it over."
Enord Loej Caldari Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2010.12.30 16:54:00 - [34] Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. CCP should at least be consistent. There is no logical difference between "wrecks in space" and "items in wrecks in space". But stealing an item from a wreck will flag you, but stealing salvage from a wreck will not. To clarify, stealing a wreck from a wreck and stealing a armor plate from a wreck are the same thing, but in EVE they are treaty differently.
Damien Grammaticus	Posted - 2010.12.30 17:25:00 - [35] Originally by: Enord Loej CCP should at least be consistent. There is no logical difference between "wrecks in space" and "items in wrecks in space". But stealing an item from a wreck will flag you, but stealing salvage from a wreck will not. To clarify, stealing a wreck from a wreck and stealing a armor plate from a wreck are the same thing, but in EVE they are treaty differently. Of course there is a difference and that CCP Prism X quote highlights it. The item in the wreck already has a certain value associated with it. Nothing else needs to be done but take that item and place it in your cargo. The wreck itself has no value. You cannot just take it and place it in your cargo. You need to turn that wreck into something valuable utilizing a skill, a module and time and even with this there is only a chance you will get something. That's a pretty clear difference in that process, the same process shared by the other mini-professions as well as mining. You can say you don't like that difference and wish it wasn't there, but you can't say there isn't a difference. The thing that isn't logical imo is wreck ownership and tractor beam behavior. Ignoring the general illogical bit of the ownership making a tractor beam not work (huh?), if the wreck is a free-for-all for salvage, why not for tractoring? I think this is the only situation like it; anyone can mine that asteroid, hack/salvage/analyze that node, harvest that gas cloud. The wrecks are like these examples only here the target is created through player action (not spawned by the server) and only here does the target have an owner. I understand the game play decision to add flagging for item shenanigans. But if the wreck is really open, why not make the tractoring open, but flag for tractoring a wreck with an item still in it. The real issue seems to be the items, so why not flag specifically for that? Is it longer range tractor scenarios and the griefing potential that led CCP not to do this? Or was this a decision based on coding realities? That aspect I think is the real inconsistency.
Borun Tal Minmatar Space Pods Inc	Posted - 2010.12.30 17:37:00 - [36] Wow, this again? Read what Jaina posted above. Nuff said.
Running River	Posted - 2010.12.30 17:59:00 - [37] I think CCP is trying to balance things and it really doesn't feel fair to either the mission runner or the salvager. (Mission Man): Why can he take my valuable salvage after I spent all that ammo to make it? I should be able to shoot him. (Salvage Man): Why can't I tractor his wrecks? Metal is metal and a tractor should draw metal regardless of the 'owner'. I don't want the can, just the salvage. So what should CCP do? The Mission Man walks in and takes all the aggro and fumes as the salvager picks his wrecks without consequence. What if the rats didn't ignore the salvager? If they had a little better AI a few of the rats could attack the salvager as well, introducing "risk" to his profession without requiring the Mission man to warp out. (and then the ninja cloak wouldn't work either.)
Mr Cleann	Posted - 2010.12.30 18:28:00 - [38] Originally by: Jaina Sunspot Originally by: Mr Cleann Salvaging wreaks = Absolutely 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000% risk free guaranteed protection by concord. Running Missions = Absolutely 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000% risk free guaranteed protection by concord. You're a zero short monkey
Kraal Jarik	Posted - 2010.12.30 18:28:00 - [39] Originally by: Running River (Mission Man): Why can he take my valuable salvage after I spent all that ammo to make it? I should be able to shoot him. (Salvage Man): Why can't I tractor his wrecks? Metal is metal and a tractor should draw metal regardless of the 'owner'. I don't want the can, just the salvage. To the mission runner: get out of mission hubs where lazy so-called ninjas hang out. To the so-called ninjas: If I leave it behind it's all yours. Ask me; chances are I'll say take it. What's the problem?
Mel Lifera Gallente Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.12.30 22:56:00 - [40] Edited by: Mel Lifera on 30/12/2010 22:56:43 Originally by: Kraal Jarik What's the problem? The problem is that most MR's aren't that intelligent. In my own limited experience of course.
Jaina Sunspot Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2010.12.30 23:19:00 - [41] Originally by: Mr Cleann You're a zero short monkey Your one N to many baldy.
ElJo123 Sons Of 0din C0NVICTED	Posted - 2010.12.31 02:51:00 - [42] Originally by: Running River If they had a little better AI a few of the rats could attack the salvager as well If they had a little better AI they'd neut the crap out of the missioner, THEN primary the salvager. (bonus points if they'd make it a stealth fix)
De'Veldrin Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion	Posted - 2010.12.31 03:00:00 - [43] Originally by: Mel Lifera Edited by: Mel Lifera on 30/12/2010 22:56:43 Originally by: Kraal Jarik What's the problem? The problem is that most MR's aren't that intelligent. In my own limited experience of course. Feel free to bring some friends and follow me around when I am actually missioning. I'll even abandon the wrecks so you can tractor them. I haven't salvaged a wreck in high sec since the last Hulkageddon. --Vel I'm more of a care-badger.
Xzar Fyrarr Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.12.31 03:09:00 - [44] I wish they would make me Red for stealing salvage... That way it'd be easier to get people to shoot at me...in highsec that is. ------------------------------------------------ One Cannot Fully Appreciate Peace Until They Have Experienced True Pain. ------------------------------------------------- - Xzar Fyrarr ;
Lady Aja Caldari	Posted - 2010.12.31 06:31:00 - [45] I agree. back in 2004 july, i used to go into 0.0 pick up left over loot that ratters cba collecting and filling my corp coffers. heck in just a inquisitor i filled 3x gsc's I copped a ** load of flak but i didnt care. Originally by:** Princess Bride Quick vote. Which do you have more respect for: 1) A year-old player making 50m/hr doing L4s handed to him on a platter by an NPC via bookmark, using mission reports so he knows exactly what to expect, whining about the guy below or; 2) A weeks-old player who has learned how to probe down missioners, found the guy above, warped in not sure if he's flying into a hornet's nest of red, for a chance at making a couple mill for books. Sorry but I'd rather have beers with the second guy. He's out there taking risks and pushing the envelope with very limited SP, limited game knowledge, competing with real players instead of NPCs with a walk-through. Best of all he's extracting bear tears in week one or two which is awesome. Ninjas are cool. Missioners are boring.
Racket Man	Posted - 2010.12.31 12:45:00 - [46] If you are not smart enough to bring your own salvager then a ninja getting your loot is your fault.Hell I fitted a Noctis just for ninjaing and doing it quick. Ever see a Noctis do 580 m/s? Well I have, and trust it may be quick but it is like stopping a train.
Joel McBeth Caldari Dreddit	Posted - 2011.01.01 01:16:00 - [47] Originally by: Enord Loej Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. CCP should at least be consistent. There is no logical difference between "wrecks in space" and "items in wrecks in space". But stealing an item from a wreck will flag you, but stealing salvage from a wreck will not. To clarify, stealing a item from a wreck and stealing a armor plate from a wreck are the same thing, but in EVE they are treaty differently. Edit: I meant item, not wreck
Gregor Vernof Voodoo Tactical Ghost Syndicate.	Posted - 2011.01.01 01:19:00 - [48] <Yawn> Is it the promise of a New Year that has you all beating this dead, decayed, corpse of a horse again? .. Back to lurking....
Joel McBeth Caldari Dreddit	Posted - 2011.01.01 01:23:00 - [49] Edited by: Joel McBeth on 01/01/2011 01:25:28 Originally by: Damien Grammaticus Originally by: Enord Loej CCP should at least be consistent. There is no logical difference between "wrecks in space" and "items in wrecks in space". But stealing an item from a wreck will flag you, but stealing salvage from a wreck will not. To clarify, stealing a wreck from a wreck and stealing a armor plate from a wreck are the same thing, but in EVE they are treaty differently. Of course there is a difference and that CCP Prism X quote highlights it. The item in the wreck already has a certain value associated with it. Nothing else needs to be done but take that item and place it in your cargo. The wreck itself has no value. You cannot just take it and place it in your cargo. You need to turn that wreck into something valuable utilizing a skill, a module and time and even with this there is only a chance you will get something. That's a pretty clear difference in that process, the same process shared by the other mini-professions as well as mining. You can say you don't like that difference and wish it wasn't there, but you can't say there isn't a difference. The thing that isn't logical imo is wreck ownership and tractor beam behavior. Ignoring the general illogical bit of the ownership making a tractor beam not work (huh?), if the wreck is a free-for-all for salvage, why not for tractoring? I think this is the only situation like it; anyone can mine that asteroid, hack/salvage/analyze that node, harvest that gas cloud. The wrecks are like these examples only here the target is created through player action (not spawned by the server) and only here does the target have an owner. I understand the game play decision to add flagging for item shenanigans. But if the wreck is really open, why not make the tractoring open, but flag for tractoring a wreck with an item still in it. The real issue seems to be the items, so why not flag specifically for that? Is it longer range tractor scenarios and the griefing potential that led CCP not to do this? Or was this a decision based on coding realities? That aspect I think is the real inconsistency. The act of salvaging is taking an item from a wreck and putting it in your cargohold. The act of looting is taking an item from a wreck and putting it into your cargo hold. They are not logically different. It shouldn't matter if you can magically transport it into your cargohold or if you have to pry it off with a salvager. It doesn't really make sense to consider one thing stealing and then the exact same thing not stealing. That's all I'm saying. Either make both flag you or neither, and they should let you tractor other people's **** too.
Jovan Geldon Gallente Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire	Posted - 2011.01.01 01:53:00 - [50] Edited by: Jovan Geldon on 01/01/2011 01:53:42 Originally by: Joel McBeth The act of salvaging is taking an item from a wreck and putting it in your cargohold. The act of looting is taking an item from a wreck and putting it into your cargo hold With you so far... Originally by: Joel McBeth They are not logically different Oh dear. Stealing loot is a crime because that loot has intrinsic value in its current state. Salvaging a wreck is not a crime because a wreck is worthless, in and of itself. It can be roughly approximated to the difference between stealing food from someone's dinner plate, and rummaging through their trash for leftovers. Originally by: Joel McBeth they should let you tractor other people's **** too. I fully agree. A hunk of metal is a hunk of metal, regardless of who "owns" it.
Enord Loej Caldari Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.01.01 18:18:00 - [51] Edited by: Enord Loej on 01/01/2011 18:18:52
BuzzySonOfButch	Posted - 2011.01.03 11:46:00 - [52] Edited by: BuzzySonOfButch on 03/01/2011 11:48:37 Originally by: Wolf Spyder CCP did a good thing when they finally came a round and criminally flagged individuals that took other peoples loot. How about doing the same thing for wreck salvaging. Or perhaps the wrecks can be rigged with explosives that would do 5k in damage to any would be thief. They salvage the wreck and the bomb explodes in their hold. Causing reverse damage. What ever the case I am getting a bit annoyed with players taking salvage that dont belong to them and the only thing I can do at the time is sit by and watch. It would be nice if CCP would do the same for salvage that they do for containers. it is NERDRAGE like the OP of this post that convinced me to become a fulltime Ninja Looter. Thank you for the job opportunity. Please take your nerdrage outon me the next time i try to bait you into shooting me by stealing every single drop. Love - \\Buz
Bixx Styxx	Posted - 2011.01.03 16:00:00 - [53] Here we go yet again.... I mission all the time, and get ninja salvagers in my missions probably 20% of the time. It's just part of eve, it aint a major problem, never was, and never will be, in fact it provides a bit of excitement in (lets face it) usually mind-numbing missions. The newb ones occasionally die to npc trigger aggro too, which can be entertaining. If you want less ninjas go mission in lowsec, I can tell you from experience there are practically none. The downside is of course you get shot instead, so quit whining. If you want as 'risk free' a profession as possible, go mine an asteroid or play the market.
joe1	Posted - 2011.01.15 13:31:00 - [54] wanna enjoy the game a little? when they come and try to salvage your loot, blow it up just as they approach it, funny as hell!
Khanh'rhh Caldari 269th Mobile Infantry Combat Battalion	Posted - 2011.01.15 20:15:00 - [55] Originally by: Princess Bride Quick vote. Which do you have more respect for: 1) A year-old player making 50m/hr doing L4s handed to him on a platter by an NPC via bookmark, using mission reports so he knows exactly what to expect, whining about the guy below or; 2) A weeks-old player who has learned how to probe down missioners, found the guy above, warped in not sure if he's flying into a hornet's nest of red, for a chance at making a couple mill for books. Sorry but I'd rather have beers with the second guy. He's out there taking risks and pushing the envelope with very limited SP, limited game knowledge, competing with real players instead of NPCs with a walk-through. Best of all he's extracting bear tears in week one or two which is awesome. Ninjas are cool. Missioners are boring. Never stated better. #2 all the way. Convo the Ninja - both times I've done this I've been greatly impressed by the guy on the other end. One is now a corpie and I probably spend more in-game time with him than anyone else. If you're getting Ninja's into your missionspace "20% of the time" then you're either missioning in a hub, which makes you lazy, or missioning at such a slow pace you should probably be mining. Either way, I salute our destroyer-bound wreck munchers .. who else keeps missioners on their toes? Also, CCP, please make all mission rat NPC's have the sleeper / Sansha AI .. please? And random each time? Why do any of you play an MMO if all you do is read mission reports, click 2 buttons, and insta-win? I missioned with a 4-year toon who had mission-ran everyday since he started. It was quite possibly the most tragic experience I've had in gaming to-date.
Kahega Amielden T.R.I.A.D	Posted - 2011.01.15 20:45:00 - [56] Quote: If they had a little better AI a few of the rats could attack the salvager as well Actually, that would be pretty dumb. The salvager is no immediate threat to them, and they know that the chances of the salvager coming to kill them are nil. They probably don't like what the salvager is doing so they'd shoot at him eventually, but certainly not before the person who is killing all of them.
Amaki Mai	Posted - 2011.01.17 22:12:00 - [57] I've only had a ninja looter in a mission of mine once - and the guy was a four YEAR old toon, not a four week old toon. He wasn't some kind of romantic Robin Hood figure - he'd been playing about four times as long as me and could easily be doing his own missions. The only REAL issue I have with Ninja Salvaging is that Salvage takes up such a small amount of m3 that even a Frigate can grab a real haul. If the Ninja Salvager has a cloak field and waits until the room is cleared, then he's making a few million in about 15 minutes whilst protected by Concorde and at zero risk. Not sure why you'd want to have a beer with someone like that, especially. Whilst missions are LOW risk, provided you do your homework, they're not ZERO risk. About the only good thing you can say about Ninja Salvagers is that they're not Can Flippers - although personally I suspect the same sort of people do both.
Corina Jarr	Posted - 2011.01.18 02:09:00 - [58] I'm probably a messed up carebear, but if I see a ninja salvager in my mission, I just set all the wrecks to abandoned so that he can take all the stuff. Its not like my life revolves around getting every cent for my second.
Kesshisan Minmatar	Posted - 2011.01.18 10:12:00 - [59] If I saw a ninja salvager in my rank 4, I'd probably strike up a conversation with him and try to form a deal with him. I'd ask him if he wanted a bunch of rank 4s to salvage, and give him bookmarks of my missions when I was done with them, and ask him to split the profits with me 50/50. Time spent missioning = X isk / hour. Time spent salvaging = Y isk / hour. If I have to mission AND salvage, my max income will be X or Y per hour, whichever is greater. (Oh, and hint hint, it's going to be the missions.) However if I have someone coming along and salvaging and splitting the profits 50/50, then my max income will be ( X + .5 * Y ) / hour. ( X + .5 Y ) / hour > ( X * N% + Y * (100-N%) ) / hour. If he was just doing it to grief me, he'd probably take all the stuff the first time and then laugh at me. I'd just shrug and next time I see him abandon all wrecks. It's not like the majority of income / time from level 4s comes from the wrecks. I will admit that with the Noctis it comes close, and may even pass it on specific missions, but for the most part the bounties, LP store, and standings* are what I'm after. More standings gives me more access to more/better R&D agents, which means more isk for me. In conclusion, I'm a carebear, but I welcome ninja salvagers...even though I've never had one. If they were to salvage my mission I wouldn't feel like I needed* to go back and salvage my old loots. (I have a Final Fantasy complex where I feel I can't leave anything behind, even that one container 150km away which I know only contains 100 Light Bloodclaw missiles.) Additionally I'll try to use the ninja salvagers as a potential profit / hour increase. Why cry about a game mechanic that is permitted? It seems pointless to complain that lasers hurt your ships, so why cry about ninja salvagers being able to salvage your missions?
Hungry Abdul	Posted - 2011.01.18 10:50:00 - [60] Its pathetic that pilots moaning about ninja salvage / wreck theft. This is a game of risk, a game of cause and effect. If everything was protected u might as well go play WOW or something of similar girls-blouse status. Man-up
Shinoe DeValo Caldari albi 02	Posted - 2011.01.18 10:58:00 - [61] On a related note: had a ninja in my L4 yesterday. he was white in the overview, but after I returned with my noctis he turned a solid red with white skull in overview. since I didn't fiddle around with the OV-settings, they're still standard. my question to the esteemed audience now would be: did he grab some loot to lure me into attacking him? and if so, can I attack him without omfgconcordonkkage? o/c he will be allowed to return the pewpew and will get an killright for 15mins on me (in case I can pop him), but as far as I got it - he turns red, I can shot, no? and, on a different note (been a few years since I last played): if I run missions with corp-mates and the ninja turns red to one of my comrades, said comrade would be allowed to shot but not me - but if the thief then returns bullets, I'd be allowed to support my corp-mate, yes? and, if said thief is fleeted as well, we'd get a chance of having his friends drop in on us as well?
Jovan Geldon Gallente Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire	Posted - 2011.01.18 11:04:00 - [62] Edited by: Jovan Geldon on 18/01/2011 11:04:53 Originally by: Shinoe DeValo did he grab some loot to lure me into attacking him? and if so, can I attack him without omfgconcordonkkage? Yes, and yes. Originally by: Shinoe DeValo if I run missions with corp-mates and the ninja turns red to one of my comrades, said comrade would be allowed to shot but not me - but if the thief then returns bullets, I'd be allowed to support my corp-mate, yes? and, if said thief is fleeted as well, we'd get a chance of having his friends drop in on us as well? If someone steals loot from you then they are flagged to your entire corp, so it's a non-issue. Both of you could shoot him in that case. If the theif was fleeted it makes not a jot of difference; his fleetmates couldn't do anything even if you returned the aggression. Hell, even the rest of his corp couldn't fire back at you (without CONCORD giving them some laser loving).
Pod Amarr	Posted - 2011.01.18 11:05:00 - [63] OMG stop whining about this. Are ninjas bunch of parasites ? YES Are most of them doing in only to annoy people or just making your life miserable ? YES Is it supposed to be flagged? HELL NO You have to think of the wrecks as harvestable resource that uses the salvager module as mining turret. Now would it make sense to get criminal flag just because you mining the same asteroid/gas cloud/whatever then other guy? Of course not. The fact that the resource was created by you exploding a ship is irrelevant you got the reward for exploding the ship in the form of the bounty payout and or tags and drops which are flagable. So stop making these threads already. Yes ninjas are parasites, scum, bottom feeders, you name it but it is perfectly fair and legal thing to do and this game thrives on attracting *******s from all over the world just itching to make a your carebear life miserable. Deal with it
Shinoe DeValo Caldari albi 02	Posted - 2011.01.18 11:11:00 - [64] Originally by: Jovan Geldon Edited by: Jovan Geldon on 18/01/2011 11:04:53 Originally by: Shinoe DeValo did he grab some loot to lure me into attacking him? and if so, can I attack him without omfgconcordonkkage? Yes, and yes. Originally by: Shinoe DeValo if I run missions with corp-mates and the ninja turns red to one of my comrades, said comrade would be allowed to shot but not me - but if the thief then returns bullets, I'd be allowed to support my corp-mate, yes? and, if said thief is fleeted as well, we'd get a chance of having his friends drop in on us as well? If someone steals loot from you then they are flagged to your entire corp, so it's a non-issue. Both of you could shoot him in that case. If the theif was fleeted it makes not a jot of difference; his fleetmates couldn't do anything even if you returned the aggression. Hell, even the rest of his corp couldn't fire back at you (without CONCORD giving them some laser loving). they can't? nice. did that change? just because I think I remember some scam back in the days where ppl where dropped by a hidden fleet. but maybe it was just the old war-party-trick. anyways, thanks for the fast answer. first time this happend, my gang-comrade and I where not in the same corp, so there's the difference I see now. well, I think the time has come for me to refit my kestrels and start learnig pewpew again :3
My Postman	Posted - 2011.01.18 15:35:00 - [65] No reason to go to drink beer with low-lifes. OP: Some solutions: When ninja shows up in your mission and you have a trigger left, immediatly shoot the trigger. Have fun watching additional spawn doing his work (hopefully). If no trigger left let ninja approach wreck. Pop wreck. Rinse and repeat. Stop shooting at NPC¦s if possible. When in a fast ship (HAC or so) burn out (AB required), when you¦re too far away, NPC¦s usually "reaggro" sometimes. Have a cloaked alt (same corp as you!) in a high alpha ship in your encounter ready. Pop wrecks till cans show up. If lucky ninja gets frustrated and steals. Decloak and one-shoot ninja. GTFO for some hours, ninja might want revenge. Generally don¦t convo or talk to ninja in local. NEVER. scumbags don¦t have interesting things to tell. Don¦t smack in local. NEVER EVER. There is only one thing the ninja wants more than your loot and salvage, and that is YOUR TEARS. Don¦t fuel the ninja. Hope this helps.
Maximum Kiely Caldari	Posted - 2011.01.18 18:20:00 - [66] Edited by: Maximum Kiely on 18/01/2011 18:20:47 Originally by: Kesshisan If I saw a ninja salvager in my rank 4, I'd probably strike up a conversation with him and try to form a deal with him. I'd ask him if he wanted a bunch of rank 4s to salvage, and give him bookmarks of my missions when I was done with them, and ask him to split the profits with me 50/50. Exactly... this is supposed to be a social game. Why not advertise in local for a relative noob to help you salvage your missions? There are plenty of young players who would love the opportunity to split the salvage from a L4 mission (myself included :). The MR saves time plus makes money they may not if they get ninja-salvaged (or can't be bothered to salvage) and the noob makes some good coin... and hey maybe a friendship/partnership is made. If people are really concerned about this there are solutions available to them... you know, besides crying to mommy that someone stole "your" salvage. Originally by: De'Veldrin Feel free to bring some friends and follow me around when I am actually missioning. I'll even abandon the wrecks so you can tractor them. I haven't salvaged a wreck in high sec since the last Hulkageddon. I'll salvage for you and give you a cut. It'll be like found money for both of us. Now based out of Molden Heath! - Contact Maximum Kiely

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