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Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente
Imperial Tau Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.01.04 23:10:00 -
[1]
This thread is not for discussing hybrids, but for discussing problems of the gallente ships themselves. I believe that they are to blame for the most of our pain.
Many have pointed out that not only the guns themselves are a problem. Some not very well designed ships are. Take the Hyperion. It is Suppose to be an awesome ship, we have a bonus to tank, bonus to damage, 8 guns, massive capacitor, I mean, what else could you want from a BS?
The main issue is that on one ship (for it to be effective in pvp) we Must have:
100mn MWD is a must because guns are very short range
8 guns that eat capacitor
2 large armor repairers as a minimum to tank anything. (using the shipÆs bonus)
Throw in a point and a web and capacitor depletes in 40 seconds!!!
Huston, we have a problem! BS is out of cap in 40 seconds, not even mentioning any vulnerability to energy neutralisers.
You need two t2 heavy capacitor boosters to run just the tank and the guns, not even mentioning the MWD. Now, try fitting 2 large armor repairers, 2 heavy capacitor boosters, and a 100 mn MWD on a Hyperion. Congratulations, you have just spent 60% of you shipÆs powergrid! Now where do I put the guns?
Maelstrom is a similar ship: it has 8 guns and a bonus to active tank. The reason it is so superior to the Hyperion is because it can actually fit the gear it needs to fly, and because itÆs active tank is almost twice as strong as that of the Hyperion, and it compensates for lack of buffer tank. Guns are a separate topick.
Problems:
Not enough cap to run everything
Not enough speed to get in range quickly
Not enough active tank to compensate for lack of buffer.
If you do fit a heavy tank, you make the ship slower, meaning that you have less chanse of getting the guns in range, meaning that you hav higher ods of being suck there, unable to catch up to your target, being slowly killed.
Potential solutions:
1 Simplest solution is to boost powergrid of ships with active tank bonus through the roof, so they can actually fit all the stuff. It is not a perfect solution, but it does get things fixed without many changes to overall game balance. Yeah, it a boost to Hyperion, britux and a couple others. Anyone is gonna say that they donÆt need it? Most gallente ships have about 2/3 the powergrid of their amarr and minmatar counterparts anyway. I mean, maestrom gets 21k powergrid and hyperion gets 15k. Maelstrom lso getÆs shieldtank, which needs no powergrid, it gets guns that need less powergrid AND less cpu, it needs only one cap booster and does not need mwd as much because itÆs guns have longer range. I mean seorisly, how does hyperion deserve this??
Solution two: this is a more complex solution. I propose giving some gallente ships a bonus to MWD overload speed bonus and web bonus. The idea is that you have once change to overload MWD, get in range and web the target. IF you are successful, you end up in close range fight where you have superior damage output, and horrible blaster tracking is less of an issue since your target is webbed by a bonused web. If you donÆt get this right, you die
Solution three: give gallente shield tank. Shield tank does not diminish your speed, and speed is very valuable when you fly blaster ships. Alternatively, you could give galente projectile guns so they can sit around ad shoot things without having to get up close and personal. If wsuch change was to happen, all gellente shoul have the chanse to take their SP out of armor skills and re-inverst it into shield skills.
To me solution number one seems like the most logical and simple one. Support if you like any of the solutions above or think gallente ships are a problem, suggest your own solutions as you see fit. Discussion is open
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Maxsim Goratiev
Imperial Tau Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.01.04 23:13:00 -
[2]
reserved
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Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
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Posted - 2011.01.05 04:43:00 -
[3]
I support this topic but it's more I think a flaw in Armor tanking ships as Amarr have the same problems as Gallente with armor tanks but they have Pulse Lazers that help make up for it. And fixing Gallente ships still leaves Caldire gun ships hanging as well.
Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here. |
Zilberfrid
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Posted - 2011.01.05 09:31:00 -
[4]
I agree. Solution 1 seems best, just make the grid comparable to other tier 3 ships. The current state is that the Abaddon and the Mael have 21k grid, the Hyp 15.750 and the Rokh 15k.
I propose 21k Baddon, 21k Mael, 20k Hyp, 19k Rokh.
This should be equalised throughout the ship sizes and tiers (abolish tiers) for all gun-based ships. Drone and missile based ships need less fitting, and should be looked at seperately.
-------------------------------------
I like to fly around and shoot stuff.
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Ogogov
Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.01.05 14:30:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Ogogov on 05/01/2011 14:30:48
The big issue with Gallente ships is that they were designed around the game as it was before a large number of changes happened, and the new ships since then have been given roles and bonuses that are 'left over' after the other three factions were created. Take info warfare links and some of the utterly nonsensical roles dished out for the Sin and Kronos:
Those two ships are quite literally the wrong way around as the Megathron-based Kronos would make for a better Black Ops ship than the Sin, and a marauder based around the Dominix would have been a far better preposition than the idiotic application of blasters and non-range bonused stasis webs to PvE mission running.
Gallente are a complex race that are exceptionally difficult to balance as the game mechanics are arguably too simplistic for most of their gimmicks to work properly. I.E - Blasters don't perform due to the chance to hit/sig radius/'side of barn' mechanics, Drones don't perform due to code issues and server lag, Railguns don't perform .. because, well.. they were obviously added at the last minute because someone realized without a token long-range weapon nobody would have a reason to bother flying Gallente. Ever.
Local Active Tanking is broken by the disparity because of several factors including the effectiveness of logistics or capital support and the problems involved with mitigating incoming dps in almost any engagement - because it's very rare to see fights involving less than five players these days. The ability to tank even 1,000 DPS pales in comparison to being on the business end of two battlecruisers, for instance.
This means that buffer tanking with remote rep support is the only effective way to fly, which means any hull with an active tank bonus is relegated to solo PvE activities (at best).
I've had some success flying SOME Gallentean ships in PvP small-gang warfare.
The Taranis is a bruiser of an interceptor that can dish out some extreme DPS if it gets close
The Lachesis is a fantastic tackle as long as it's backed by some decent support
The Ishtar kicks butt in its intended role, although I don't fly it often outside of PvE
A properly-fit killdozer Dominix will slaughter anything stupid enough to engage in scram/web range.
But these examples are few and far between. The faction has many, many more broken and useless ships, and I've covered nowhere near all the examples. I would strongly encourage both CCP and the CSM to take up the issue and find a way to re-design Gallentean ships so that they are more tuned with the game as it is now, not how the game was in 2006.
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Tyr Aeron
Therapy.
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2011.01.05 16:18:00 -
[6]
Battleships absolutely need some rebalancing. In 0.0 you don't often see battleships unless it's in large fleets (Alpha Maelstroms for example) because the cost/benefit of battlecruisers, drakes and canes specifically, is just more attractive. I can get a decent tank out of a drake and enough DPS to kill pretty much whatever comes through a gate for under a hundred mill, fittings included. A fully fitted battleship on the other hand costs signifigantly more and are really useless against anything smaller than a battlecruiser because of a: tracking speeds of large guns, b: cap stability and vulnerability to NOS/neuts, & c: speed/maneuverability. A battleship is rarely afforded the chance to determine the range at which an engagement will take place. Smaller/faster ships always move to their optimal and start orbiting inside the tracking. At that point, you may as well be throwing cans out the window at them for all the damage your guns will do.
Battlships should by all rights be the scourge of any battlefield. Come on CCP, make the battleships the harbingers of doom and destruction they're supposed to be. I don't even care if they cost twice as much per hull, as long as a 5 man cruiser gang coming in sees an Abbadon on the gate and their immediate reaction is "RUN!!!"
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Wacktopia
Dark Side Of The Womb
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Posted - 2011.01.05 16:36:00 -
[7]
Gallente or Hybrids do need some looking at. CCP have accepted the notion I believe but cannot decide on a good enough answer at present.
/support
P.S Been a while, Max. :-)
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Crazy KSK
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Posted - 2011.01.05 18:21:00 -
[8]
gallente ships need to be the fastest to use blasters effectively yes faster then minmatar no minmatar does not loose their roll or anything as they have a much better range on their guns as gallente and as gallente blaster ships can't kite they should not be able to get kited
also some of their ships need a general buff
hyperion and brutix
those two ships suffer from bad fitting stats and their active tank bonuses
imo their active tank bonuses should be changed to resit bonuses that would buff those ships overall and make them more useful
but the best thing would probably be to buff their active tank bonus so they can get a good tank even with only one reper
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Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente
Imperial Tau Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.01.06 18:15:00 -
[9]
o/ Wack hey!
And bump
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
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Posted - 2011.01.06 19:25:00 -
[10]
Supported.
I'd personally like to see Gallente ships with the active rep bonuses (ex. Brutix, Myrmidon, Hyperion) get that bonus changed to an armor buff (ex. 5% armor per level). In this way, Gallente ships don't NEED to fit plates (keeping them "light-ish") and can field sufficiently meaty tanks despite having less low-slots.
The downside with this is that people would create some wicked "brick" tanks using the [new] bonuses AND plates (ex. with the Myrmidon I can get ~100k ehp with two 1600 plates, 3 EANM IIs, a DCII, and LG Slaves... with even a 5% per level bonus this would push the ehp up to around 125k... way too meaty for a mere battlecruiser).
Honestly though... I would like to see the Gallente be given an "upgrade" as a whole. The whole "active tanking race" bit and being mediocre to inefficient in a fair bit of PvP situations just isn't cutting it anymore.
_______________________
"Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one."
~Unknown |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.01.06 21:02:00 -
[11]
 Originally by: Maxsim Goratiev
2 large armor repairers as a minimum to tank anything. (using the shipÆs bonus)
What are these "armor repzors" you mention, never heard of them. Are they a new module? 
Solo/small-gang PvP, which is the only place it is useful, is becoming increasingly rare so unless CCP sits down and re-examines the whole "buffer vs active" tank side of things I'd say discard any and all active rep bonuses.
Option one is not worth considering unless CCP does something to make active repair worthwhile compared to buffer.
Option two, Goddess NO. Have you seen what the Serpentis ships can do with their god-webs, no way in hell those things should ever be re-introduced in the mainstream.
Option three looks like the way things are now, the shield craze of 2010-201?. Having 3/4 of the races as shield tanks makes for a poorer game, so No.
Originally by: ShahFluffers
... I'd personally like to see Gallente ships with the active rep bonuses (ex. Brutix, Myrmidon, Hyperion) get that bonus changed to an armor buff (ex. 5% armor per level). In this way, Gallente ships don't NEED to fit plates (keeping them "light-ish") and can field sufficiently meaty tanks despite having less low-slots...
Actually looks like a decent way of doing it. Don't worry about the possibility of the 100k+ tank as it can always be tweaked through related attributes .. hasn't hurt the Drake to have that kind of buffer 
My take:
- Increase speed of all blaster boats to Matari levels but decrease inertia.
Gives you straight line speed to catch and manoeuvre under tackle while limiting kiting shenanigans (that is a minnie Trademark).
- Replace all active bonuses with either raw EHP as mentioned in post above or gun/drone bonuses.
Never did fathom why the Megathron is the only blaster platform with a tracking bonus.
- Give hybrids a make over similar to what was done for projectiles (just not as exaggerated please ).
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GeeShizzle MacCloud
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Posted - 2011.01.06 21:37:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Gee****zle MacCloud on 06/01/2011 21:36:59
definitely supporting an improvement to gal ships, theyre practically dissapearing in PVP except for a few exceptions.
i prefer the idea of bonuses to armor resist strengths rather than armor HP increase per level. as certain aspects of performance should change with an increase in armor amount... the same way you put a plate on u decrease speed and increase mass and therefore inertia.
i do also believe that some gal ships do desperately require PG increases!
*edited to support*
CSM Prop 1
CSM Prop 2 |
Anyura
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Posted - 2011.01.06 23:13:00 -
[13]
Some pretty reasoned thinking there - would probably support option one.
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Doctor Aibolit
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Posted - 2011.01.07 02:28:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Doctor Aibolit on 07/01/2011 02:36:33
I support the topic.
P.S. I trained Gallente race about 1 year. "The Gallente problem" is solved now for me. I have trained Ammar and Minmatar stuff.It is fantastic.
Paladin can shoot 15km and 50km with same DPS like Kronos BUT without refitting (Pulse with MF or Scorch)
Minmatar ships can switch damage types, they have free high slots for neuts or any other stuff without dps suffering, incredible alfa with arti.
Ammar ship does not need to move. Scorch gives incredible optimal.
And other arguments...
P.P.S. I used Proteus. It has very good paper dps. But I discovered strange thing. When I shoot webbed and scrambled Drake at my optimal (2.2km with AM) and ORBIT. My dps is about 2/3 - 1/2 of dps when I just stay and shoot. I think blasters need more tracking
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Professor Screweyes
I.M.M
Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2011.01.07 02:46:00 -
[15]
My fix was to train Amarr after about a year of burning Gallente. When I'm feeling nostalgic enough to fly a gallente ship, it's fitted with arty's. But for a few t2 exceptions, gallente ships are just pre-salvage. The drones are nice, but gate guns and sleepers love to snack on them.
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fukier
The Unpodable Supermen
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Posted - 2011.01.07 05:36:00 -
[16]
i do support the fact that gallente ships have a focus problem but i do not agree with all your fixes...
imo if you want to fix gallente you need to do 3 things:
1. Remove the repper bonus and replace it with an armor hp bonus (this will give gallente ships the ability to get close)
2. reduce the mass of gallente ships (gallente ships should be slower then minmatar without speed mods but gallente ships should be a close second fast by givining them a reduced mass this will allow gallente to be fast and still have plates on ...)
3. increase base drone bay... gallente are supposed to be the drone people right?
attero benevolentia!
caveo cavi cautum censura!
Remember Your Hell Is Someone Else's Heaven
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Nischara
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Posted - 2011.01.07 05:44:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Nischara on 07/01/2011 05:47:37
Edited by: Nischara on 07/01/2011 05:44:22
as i read somwhere galente were first designed to hull tank
you'll notice that the hull repairer is a medium slot module, and galente have more mediums and less low compared to amar, wich makes sence
hull tanking modules do not give speed penalties like armor modules, so the silly problem of armor tank and blaster range goes away
also current hull tanking modules dont use as much grid as armor, so that's another issue solved
only needed change for that is a massive boost to hull repair modules, and a few new hull resist modules
and a LOT of balancing issues afterwards
- that dosent fix hybrids but that's not the topic here
on secont thought
then we have issues with RR and fleet boosting and a lot of other stuff to solve, that would be a major change, basicaly scrap galente andf make whole new race
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
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Posted - 2011.01.07 06:51:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Nischara
hull tanking modules do not give speed penalties like armor modules, so the silly problem of armor tank and blaster range goes away
Errrrrrrr... try fitting a Dominix with all Hull Reinforcement Bulkheads in the lows... you'll move slower than a constipated whale in molasses. Those hull mods add ghastly amounts of mass to the ship they are fitted to which, in turn, severely reduces agility (i.e. acceleration, deceleration, and turning).
_______________________
"Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one."
~Unknown |
Nischara
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Posted - 2011.01.07 08:38:00 -
[19]
sry, didnt check before opening my mouth
... ok so chanhe the hul modules to not slow down the ship
minor problem if anyone would start implementing this huge change
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LordElfa
Gallente
Revan's Fist
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Posted - 2011.01.07 09:31:00 -
[20]
I say remove all hybrids, give a boost drone bandwidth and bonuses, limit drone link augmenters to one per ship and makes drones only down-able via something like the defender missiles. IOW, make Gallente all drone. That takes care of the speed issues and the power issues while eliminating all hybrid issues.
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Silmo Kazadrex
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Posted - 2011.01.07 12:03:00 -
[21]
Support OP |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.07 13:03:00 -
[22]
id be all for resist bonuses for armor like caldari have shield resist bonuses, thatd mitigate more damage and still keep performance of the original hull as well as reduce the requirement to have 2 armor reps as a minimum.
bonuses to drone speed and drone HP would be great. Gallente are ment to be pioneers and experts in drones, so it makes sense that they could get the most out of them. and itd mean the higher dps drones would actually last longer and may actually get to a PVP target for once without a few being taken out along the way!
itd make sense to limit the drone bonuses to particular types, that way you could sill balance things... eg the keres could have ECM drone bonuses, ships designed mainly as blaster platforms could have light and medium drone bonuses and not heavy ones and vice versa!
i do believe that drone bays need to be increased too.
CSM Prop 1
CSM Prop 2 |
Deviana Sevidon
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
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Posted - 2011.01.07 13:37:00 -
[23]
How about solution 4:
Change the Armor-Repair Bonus so that it also increases the repair amount received by remote repair drones and modules.
Other then that I would increase range of blasters by at least 20% and tracking of blasters and rails by another 20% and descrease their cap use by 50%.
Quote:
Disclaimer: All mentioned above contains my opinion and is therefore an absolute truth (for me anyway, my universe, muhahaha.....ok, done
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Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente
Imperial Tau Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.01.07 14:59:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
How about solution 4:
Change the Armor-Repair Bonus so that it also increases the repair amount received by remote repair drones and modules.
Other then that I would increase range of blasters by at least 20% and tracking of blasters and rails by another 20% and decrease their cap use by 50%.
I have through about the remote-repp bonus that you describe, and it does sound alright. WE still need more powergrid or something though.
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Ogogov
Gallente
Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.01.07 15:25:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Maxsim Goratiev
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
How about solution 4:
Change the Armor-Repair Bonus so that it also increases the repair amount received by remote repair drones and modules.
Other then that I would increase range of blasters by at least 20% and tracking of blasters and rails by another 20% and decrease their cap use by 50%.
I have through about the remote-repp bonus that you describe, and it does sound alright. WE still need more powergrid or something though.
That kind of RR would make armor rep bonused ships effectively invulnerable unless they were alpha'd in fleet fights.
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Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente
Imperial Tau Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.01.07 15:27:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Ogogov
Originally by: Maxsim Goratiev
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
How about solution 4:
Change the Armor-Repair Bonus so that it also increases the repair amount received by remote repair drones and modules.
Other then that I would increase range of blasters by at least 20% and tracking of blasters and rails by another 20% and decrease their cap use by 50%.
I have through about the remote-repp bonus that you describe, and it does sound alright. WE still need more powergrid or something though.
what did that even mean? Yea, you cannot kill a ship's bonus without killing the ship, so the bonus is invulnerable ina n certain sence. Apart from the i don't get what you are talking about.
If you care to critique the proposal, you better care to explain.
That kind of RR would make armor rep bonused ships effectively invulnerable unless they were alpha'd in fleet fights.
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Joss56
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2011.01.07 15:38:00 -
[27]
Support OP
1- Adestria or Vindicator have the bonuses that all Wallente ships should have
2- Hybrids sucks
3- Ship sucks+guns sucks = Crosstrain =walleship with autos/artys
Best Option for CCP: Delete Wallente race and hybrids, no more problems to resolve and we can finaly train something fun
-Any new char that asks me witch race/ship to train i allways answer: matar 
Mabe is intended by CCP but in this case please be kind and give me back my sp so i can spent them in the good race.
________________________________________________
"You do realise you live on a globe, right? And that there places outside the USA/UK?"
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Ogogov
Gallente
Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.01.07 17:14:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Maxsim Goratiev
Edited by: Maxsim Goratiev on 07/01/2011 15:49:53
Originally by: Ogogov
That kind of RR would make armor rep bonused ships effectively invulnerable unless they were alpha'd in fleet fights.
I did not understand anything you wrote. care to explain?
Try reading it again slowly.
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Grut
The Protei
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Posted - 2011.01.07 17:49:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Grut on 07/01/2011 17:50:24
Originally by: Ogogov
Originally by: Maxsim Goratiev
Edited by: Maxsim Goratiev on 07/01/2011 15:49:53
Originally by: Ogogov
That kind of RR would make armor rep bonused ships effectively invulnerable unless they were alpha'd in fleet fights.
I did not understand anything you wrote. care to explain?
Try reading it again slowly.
He was probably originally going to suggest a 33% boost to received RR, primary buffer, and local reps ... but thought it might be overpowered
Kinsy > deadman you
there?
Kinsy > are either of us in
pods, becase we dont know...
Mostly harmless
[ 2005.12.09 19:22:50 ] (notify) You have started trying to warp scramble the Dreadnought |
Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.01.07 19:35:00 -
[30]
At issue is the closer a ship's engagement range is, the faster it needs to be able to fly.
Amarr is able to cope with armor tanking because they have a long engagement range for pulse.
Caldari CR missile boats work (the ones with good range bonuses), others are long range only platforms due to how slow the base speed is on Caldari ships.
Minmatar are fast, so their engagement range isn't much of an issue.
Gallente are horribly crippled by being armor tanked and requiring the fastest speed to engage (pick one and it can only be armor tank) when it comes to CR engagements. Put any tank on a Gallente ship and it cripples its ability to engage further. Speed and range need to match up.
Either increase blaster range or increase Gallente speed in some way.
As for fittings, I think all BS fitting needs to be looked at. Across the board, they are tighter fits than BC and that is a fairly big problem.
As for Maxsim's solutions, grid/CPU needs are more influenced by the ship's tank than the weapons. Shield tanks usually lack CPU and armor tanks lack grid. Why Gallente have substantially less grid than Amarr has always baffled me. Minmatar can get away with their weak CPU because part of their tank usually comes from speed.
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