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666Devious
Sinister Elite
Supremacy.
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Posted - 2011.01.09 09:10:00 -
[1]
Edited by: 666Devious on 09/01/2011 09:11:37
why is there a speed reduction if its only a mass increase.
even if a plate adds a billion mass you will still get to max speed not a reduced speed.
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards
Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.01.09 09:20:00 -
[2]
Space is a liquid.
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Target Painter
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.09 09:21:00 -
[3]
Because real physics don't apply in internet spaceships.
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666Devious
Sinister Elite
Supremacy.
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Posted - 2011.01.09 10:01:00 -
[4]
Atleast if armor plates reduce your over all speed it should be listed in Description.
number two what is the formula since plates onlyreduce your speed if you have a prop mod on.
there is something not right here none-the-less.
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Target Painter
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.09 10:02:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: 666Devious
there is something not right here none-the-less.
Working as intended.
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2011.01.09 12:26:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Bibbleibble on 09/01/2011 12:25:54
IIRC speed with a prop mod formula is:
New Speed = Base Speed * Propulsion Mod Speed Bonus * (Propulsion Mod Thrust/Mass)
Basically, it is working as intended
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TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Extreme Prejudice.
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Posted - 2011.01.09 16:27:00 -
[7]
It would be hard to make the frigate a viable class if larger ships could fit larger engines, and therefore go faster.
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666Devious
Sinister Elite
Supremacy.
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Posted - 2011.01.09 17:45:00 -
[8]
Its not a question of working as intended.
It's the point that its not mentioned and why.
I am glad I got the formula, but what is of bigger concern is how many people have talked to me about this after I posted.
How are you to play this game if not every stat is listed.
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luckyhendrix
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Posted - 2011.01.09 17:48:00 -
[9]
it is stated in the item description and there a Mass addition field in the item attributes , can't make it clearer.
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666Devious
Sinister Elite
Supremacy.
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Posted - 2011.01.09 18:01:00 -
[10]
Edited by: 666Devious on 09/01/2011 18:02:50
Originally by: luckyhendrix
it is stated in the item description and there a Mass addition field in the item attributes , can't make it clearer.
Where does it say plate gives you a top speed reduction with a prop mod on?
Also not asking for opinions, please use source.
p.s. mass =/= speed speed =/= velocity
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Grimpak
Gallente
The Whitehound Corporation
Hounds of Anarchy
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Posted - 2011.01.09 18:03:00 -
[11]
Originally by: 666Devious
Where does it say plate gives you a top speed reduction with a prop mod on?
Also not asking for opinions, please use source.
it's on the instruction manual.
---
Quote:
The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
666Devious
Sinister Elite
Supremacy.
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Posted - 2011.01.10 01:37:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Bibbleibble
Edited by: Bibbleibble on 09/01/2011 12:25:54
IIRC speed with a prop mod formula is:
New Speed = Base Speed * Propulsion Mod Speed Bonus * (Propulsion Mod Thrust/Mass)
Basically, it is working as intended
I figured out where the problem was coming from and it was due to eve not correctly updating your max velocity from mwd boost.
Since you will never achieve maximum velocity bonus from mwd/ab.
Punisher Example
I used a Punisher with no skills and a mwd.
(base speed 287 m/s with +500% from mwd is 1722 m/s) = this statement is fact.
So using my numbers in game and getting different result in eft yet I had correct maximum velocity in game was problematic.
Bibbleibble thanks for the formula it helped alot.
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Headerman
Minmatar
Metanoia.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.01.10 01:59:00 -
[13]
Originally by: baltec1
Space is a liquid.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2011.01.10 02:01:00 -
[14]
welcome to eve, and well most of the mmos I have played, where the description on the item isn't ever 100% accurate!
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Techno Panda
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Posted - 2011.01.10 02:38:00 -
[15]
If the game actually followed physics then you wouldn't need to run a prop mod to stay at speed only to get there, secondly you would have no top speed, thirdly when you got git from projectiles and other objects your ship would react with movement, torps wouldn't have those huge explosions if Im correct because fire needs Ignition(explosion) something to burn(???) and oxygen(not in space bud).
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Anubis Xian
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.10 02:40:00 -
[16]
Originally by: TimMc
It would be hard to make the frigate a viable class if larger ships could fit larger engines, and therefore go faster.
Eve would be a much better game if Cruisers were the largest ships you can use.
Originally by: CCP Oveur
The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
CINA
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DanFraser
BoB Enterprises
Veni Vidi Vici Alliance
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Posted - 2011.01.10 14:57:00 -
[17]
Because space has already been proven to be 5w30 oil.
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Grimpak
Gallente
The Whitehound Corporation
Hounds of Anarchy
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Posted - 2011.01.10 15:13:00 -
[18]
Originally by: DanFraser
Because space has already been proven to be 5w30 oil.
thought it was 10w40
---
Quote:
The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Mavnas
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Posted - 2011.01.10 15:19:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Techno Panda
If the game actually followed physics then you wouldn't need to run a prop mod to stay at speed only to get there, secondly you would have no top speed, thirdly when you got git from projectiles and other objects your ship would react with movement, torps wouldn't have those huge explosions if Im correct because fire needs Ignition(explosion) something to burn(???) and oxygen(not in space bud).
When I raised the same complaint, someone told me that having a warp drive created drag in space. Since we haven't invented those yet, who can say that's not true?
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Jacob Holland
Gallente
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
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Posted - 2011.01.10 18:01:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Jacob Holland on 10/01/2011 18:02:34
Originally by: Techno Panda
If the game actually followed physics then you wouldn't need to run a prop mod to stay at speed only to get there
That assumes a perfect vacuum (which space isn't) and therefore no drag effects from collision, it also assumes no Gravitic drag...etc.
Finally it also assumes that no safety systems are artificially limiting your speed to prevent critical systems damage from impacts on the micro scale (micrometeoriods, dust...etc).
Originally by: Techno Panda
secondly you would have no top speed
A Reaction engine (something which sprays matter out of the back of a ship to get it to go forward) limits the top speed of the vessel to being equal to the speed at which the particles of mass are ejected. Only a photon gun could approach light speed.
Of course this also assumes no outside influences - if you're diving into the event horizon of a black hole it's unlikely that your engines will be defining your speed.
Originally by: Techno Panda
thirdly when you got git from projectiles and other objects your ship would react with movement
In the same way as when a train hits a fly the entire train stops for a moment.
Your ship is flexible and its mass is significantly greater than that of the projectile being fired - the recoil or impact will cause parts of your ship to move but the elastic release of that energy is slow enough that it's easily compensated for.
Originally by: Techno Panda
torps wouldn't have those huge explosions if Im correct because fire needs Ignition(explosion) something to burn(???) and oxygen(not in space bud).
Explosives work because they carry their own fuel and their own oxygen - if they didn't then they couldn't extract sufficient oxygen from the air, quickly enough, to attain such a violent reaction. Set fire to a piece of cotton wool and it won't exlode, pack it with oxygen by making gun cotton and it certainly will.
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Originally by: cordy
Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
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Dorian Wylde
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Posted - 2011.01.10 18:38:00 -
[21]
Pretty much everything Jacob says is right. Sorry wannabe science geeks, theres a lot more going on in space than most people realize.
Also, it's a game, not real physics.
Also, OP, you haev to learn like the rest of us that not every stat is always listed, and that some things are a bit obscure in this game. This isn't WoW where everything is handed to you, or explained in perfect clarity. You have to figure some stuff out through trial and error, like real life.
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Lady Skank
Ban Evasion inc
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Posted - 2011.01.10 18:39:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Techno Panda
torps wouldn't have those huge explosions if Im correct because fire needs Ignition(explosion) something to burn(???) and oxygen(not in space bud).
Including an oxidiser in the warhead the same way current projectile propellants do would explain that.
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Boltorano
Fourth Circle
Total Comfort
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Posted - 2011.01.10 19:07:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Anubis Xian
Originally by: TimMc
It would be hard to make the frigate a viable class if larger ships could fit larger engines, and therefore go faster.
Eve would be a much better game if Cruisers were the largest ships you can use.
Been there, done that, Gratuitous Space Battles gets boring with only Cruisers/Frigates/"Drones".
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Spatha
Gallente
The Dawn League
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Posted - 2011.01.10 21:14:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Jacob Holland
Edited by: Jacob Holland on 10/01/2011 18:02:34
A Reaction engine (something which sprays matter out of the back of a ship to get it to go forward) limits the top speed of the vessel to being equal to the speed at which the particles of mass are ejected. Only a photon gun could approach light speed.
Of course this also assumes no outside influences - if you're diving into the event horizon of a black hole it's unlikely that your engines will be defining your speed.
This is not correct. First, it presumes the existence of a preferred inertial frame, in defiance of Einstein, in which the rocket speed is to be measured against the exhaust speed. In other words, you can always find an inertial frame in which the instantaneous speed of the rocket is zero.
Second, the maximum delta-v of an isolated, conventional reaction engine is determined by the Tsiolkovsky rocket equation, which states that the delta-v for a burn is proportional to the "effective exhaust velocity" (for rockets in vacuo, that is essentially the speed of the reaction mass going out the back end), and the natural logarithm of the ratio of the initial and final masses for the burn. This may be where you got the idea that the top speed of a rocket is equal to the exhaust speed. Consider, however, that the Space Shuttle main engines have an exhaust speed of around 4.4 km/sec, significantly less than the minimum speed required for low Earth orbit. The key is that second factor; you can go as fast as you want (sub-light speed, of course) as long as you dedicate a large enough fraction of your craft's initial mass to fuel.
By the way, there are reaction engines which do not obey this relation, as they do not carry their fuel along for the ride. The Bussard ramjet is an (still theoretical, sadly) example of such a propulsion system.
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Aaron Greil
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Posted - 2011.01.10 23:31:00 -
[25]
Yeah, don't expect Eve to use real physics. Physics + Balance issues = explosion
Also to the guy who said that the fastest you can go is the speed of your propellant, you, sir, are a moron. Take it from a physicist, (my degree), and go back to high school basic mechanics. There is no drag in space, which means that an applied thrust (which is a Force, that means its based on acceleration, not velocity) causes the speed of the ship to increase forever, up until relativistic effects must be considered. This is only one of many grossly flawed physics mistakes you made in that post. If you don't know what you're talking about, spare those who do and keep quite.
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Thorian Baalnorn
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Posted - 2011.01.11 00:16:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Thorian Baalnorn on 11/01/2011 00:18:59
Edited by: Thorian Baalnorn on 11/01/2011 00:17:54
Originally by: Aaron Greil
Yeah, don't expect Eve to use real physics. Physics + Balance issues = explosion
Also to the guy who said that the fastest you can go is the speed of your propellant, you, sir, are a moron. Take it from a physicist, (my degree), and go back to high school basic mechanics. There is no drag in space, which means that an applied thrust (which is a Force, that means its based on acceleration, not velocity) causes the speed of the ship to increase forever, up until relativistic effects must be considered. This is only one of many grossly flawed physics mistakes you made in that post. If you don't know what you're talking about, spare those who do and keep quite.
Basically this. In theory you should be able to increase your speed up to certain point ( i believe it is just shy of the speed of light). How fast you reach that speed depends on your mass VS thrust( acceleration.) Also m/s is like super slow for space. The fastest spacecraft we have had travel were Helios probes. which traveled about 41 km/s . One would think a race with the technology in eve could make a spaceship with sub warp engines go much faster.
Their are many things in eve that are inaccurate for the sake of balance. Falloff would vary depending on where you was and your proximity to an object with enough mass to have a gravitational field and the size of the field. Bullets would travel much further than they do in eve. Cruise missiles with 250km range? we have missiles now that will go 20 times that distance. Not to mention the destructive force. In space their is no reason not to use nuclear warheads. The explosion of a 2 MT nuke cruise missile would be much more devastating in relation to bullets and lasers. Also explosion velocity, while it varies with the type of explosive is much greater than the speed of any ship in eve.
Thus if you applied real world physics and assuming the eve races could manage to discover and use something as simple as nuclear power then a drake could pretty much solopwn entire fleets of gun ships just with AOE damage. In reality missiles should work like bombs do now but with a much faster explosion velocity.
But that would make for an unbalanced game, so they had to create eve physics which is nothing like real physics.
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Target Painter
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.11 01:35:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Target Painter on 11/01/2011 01:35:27
Originally by: Thorian Baalnorn
In reality missiles should work like bombs do now but with a much faster explosion velocity.
There was a time when torps were AoE. It was ****ing ******ed.
Quote:
But that would make for an unbalanced game, so they had to create eve physics which is nothing like real physics.
This.
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Omiin
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Posted - 2011.02.18 21:19:00 -
[28]
Wait, if the original question is why is there a speed reduction if you increase the mass. which is what you said. (Keeping all else the same)Increasing the mass of the ship to a billion kg (mass) would then require more energy to accelerate the ship to the same max speed before the extra mass was added. So keeping all else equal (including energy/propultion output), would mean that the ship would be unable to get to the same max speed UNLESS you also increased the ships energy output. In conclusion your speed WOULD be reduced relative to the increase in mass (all else equal) Keep in mind that this is just responding to the first post.
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Tobias Imasqin
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.02.28 21:56:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Tobias Imasqin on 28/02/2011 21:59:19
Acceleration = Force/Mass
Increasing mass reduces acceleration so it just takes longer to reach a given speed when mass is increased. If you wish to maintain the same rate of acceleration then the increase in mass needs to be balanced by an increase in force.
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Songbird
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Posted - 2011.03.01 00:12:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Jacob Holland
Quote:
Originally by: Techno Panda
secondly you would have no top speed
A Reaction engine (something which sprays matter out of the back of a ship to get it to go forward) limits the top speed of the vessel to being equal to the speed at which the particles of mass are ejected. Only a photon gun could approach light speed.
Reaction engine will keep accelerating your ship until you approach speed of light. The force it applies is constant, F=ma, acceleration is constant as long as mass doesn't change. According to classical physics mass would approach infinity as your ship approaches speed of light.
Just think about it that way- the engine applies the force to the ship , not to the space around it.
sorry for butting in , just couldn't watch Newton get ... laughed at.
Anyway
As to the original question: Every prop mod has the mass it can accelerate noted(or is it the force it creates- don't have eve open right now). Ff the mass of the ship is lower than the noted mass it gives you more speed: Look at the dramiel- it's original speed is 500 (or w/e) but gets speed of 2-3k with AB.
If the mass is higher speed is lower - example - the orca with top speed of 300 or w/e it is with a mwd.
You put in a mod which reduces your mass - i.e. "nano" your ship your top speed would be higher. Same with mods which raise your mass, reduces the speed with prop mods.
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