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Dearest CCP, about a little thing called Incarna

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Bomberlocks Minmatar CTRL-Q	Posted - 2011.01.10 12:06:00 - [1] While the CSM minutes for the latest summit have not yet been released there has been a makred change in the attitude of the 3 most committed and hard working CSM members with regards to the next expansion, such that they are now all acutely depressed about will happen with respect to (the lack of) Incarna gameplay. While all of them are being brave souls and sticking to the NDA, it is becoming pretty obvious that the team leads responsible for Incarna, Torfi and Noah, still have no story or gameplay. This about 6 to 8 months before Incarna is due to be released and after 5 years of development, which sort of makes it very likely that there will still be nothing by the time Incarna is released. In addition to this there is a strong feeling (admittedly still rumour) that Incarna will not be optional, and in stronger cases a fear that docking, marketplay, switching ships etc, will all have to go through Incarna. So I'll just say this: If this is true when the expansion comes out, I'm just going to quit. I won't rage or make the usual dozens of posts on the topic like I usually do, I'll just go. I don't have the energy to rage about a computer game again like I did last summer. I'm not the only one either. I think you at CCP don't realise that the excellent work you've done since the Tyranis farce and debacle doesn't somehow give you a license in the eyes of the players to going back to putting out a heap of shiny but otherwise hollow crap instead of decent game content and improvements. Just thought you should know.
dkbjitawhore	Posted - 2011.01.10 12:08:00 - [2] Originally by: Bomberlocks While the CSM minutes for the latest summit have not yet been released there has been a makred change in the attitude of the 3 most committed and hard working CSM members with regards to the next expansion, such that they are now all acutely depressed about will happen with respect to (the lack of) Incarna gameplay. While all of them are being brave souls and sticking to the NDA, it is becoming pretty obvious that the team leads responsible for Incarna, Torfi and Noah, still have no story or gameplay. This about 6 to 8 months before Incarna is due to be released and after 5 years of development, which sort of makes it very likely that there will still be nothing by the time Incarna is released. In addition to this there is a strong feeling (admittedly still rumour) that Incarna will not be optional, and in stronger cases a fear that docking, marketplay, switching ships etc, will all have to go through Incarna. So I'll just say this: If this is true when the expansion comes out, I'm just going to quit. I won't rage or make the usual dozens of posts on the topic like I usually do, I'll just go. I don't have the energy to rage about a computer game again like I did last summer. I'm not the only one either. I think you at CCP don't realise that the excellent work you've done since the Tyranis farce and debacle doesn't somehow give you a license in the eyes of the players to going back to putting out a heap of shiny but otherwise hollow crap instead of decent game content and improvements. Just thought you should know. Post or evemail link to said comments please.
Niccolado Starwalker Gallente Shadow Templars	Posted - 2011.01.10 12:14:00 - [3] Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 10/01/2011 12:14:26 Originally by: Bomberlocks [...]So I'll just say this: If this is true when the expansion comes out, I'm just going to quit. I won't rage or make the usual dozens of posts on the topic like I usually do, I'll just go. I don't have the energy to rage about a computer game again like I did last summer.Just thought you should know. So instead of raging when the expansion truly is here, you decided to rage in advance with this thread on which just seems to be baseless rumours to me. Leave quietly?? Doubt it.. Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL.
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2011.01.10 12:20:00 - [4] Anything other than baseless rumors to support you OP? Proof or STFU.
Jint Hikaru OffWorld Exploration Inc	Posted - 2011.01.10 12:22:00 - [5] I seem to remember seeing a CCP statement saying that it will be optional and all station stuff will still be able to be done from your Pod. (However I dont have a link or pics etc) To the OP. Can I have your stuff if you do ragequit (quietly or otherwise) ------------------------ Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum "I've got a couple of Strippers on my ship... and they just love to dance!" ------------------------
Halcyon Ingenium Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact	Posted - 2011.01.10 12:24:00 - [6] This will be his reaction to Incarna.
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.01.10 12:25:00 - [7] Edited by: Tres Farmer on 10/01/2011 12:26:31 Originally by: Bomberlocks snip In addition to this there is a strong feeling (admittedly still rumour) that Incarna will not be optional, and in stronger cases a fear that docking, marketplay, switching ships etc, will all have to go through Incarna. snip If you switch ships in space (pos, ship maint bay at titan), how do you involve incarna there?! Do we get walking in POS/Titans then? Same goes for market and every other interface you're now able to use from space.. There is no history of CCP disabling old usability on such magnitude. As for gameplay in Incarna, I still hope for a lounge that enables me to see outside the station while I'm docked. The stuff with the black markets/boosters they were talking about sounds nice too. Then you got the already tech-demo-visualised minigames and bars for social interaction. Don't know how one can get scared by this outlook? Personally I'm way more worried about the state of the current utilisation of space (40-50 places of interest per system) the tightening bottleneck that gates symbolise and the growing player numbers. Jita reaching the cap now every weekend is a sign of crowding and so far there is no word what CCP thinks about this. I wouldn't even dare to ask what they are going to do about it.. support Public Idea Tracker \| 24hr PLEX
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2011.01.10 12:26:00 - [8] Im still waiting for pollution & population in PI :D Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments <0>
Jovan Geldon Gallente Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire	Posted - 2011.01.10 12:35:00 - [9] Originally by: Bomberlocks it is becoming pretty obvious that the team leads responsible for Incarna, Torfi and Noah, still have no story or gameplay [Citation needed]
TriadSte Gallente	Posted - 2011.01.10 12:36:00 - [10] Originally by: Tres Farmer As for gameplay in Incarna, I still hope for a lounge that enables me to see outside the station while I'm docked. Can't ever happen as incarna will be on a totally different node to the "outside" world, However it indeed would be awesome-sause to watch ships dock/undock watch some pew pew from inside station. What I look forward to, just for the laugh is logging on right when TQ goes live. Im in Jita 4-4 and seeing many THOUSANDS of players trying to buy up the very limited "shops" in station and watching the node crash hard because that *will* happen...
ivar R'dhak	Posted - 2011.01.10 12:36:00 - [11] Originally by: Bomberlocks So I'll just say this: If this is true when the expansion comes out, I'm just going to quit. I won't rage or make the usual dozens of posts on the topic like I usually do, I'll just go. I don't have the energy to rage about a computer game again like I did last summer. Seconded. I already gave this game a rest for more than a year or so, when CCP decided to grief everybody "introducing" T3 cruiser skill-loss. STO is starting to look better and better.. especially after the last revamps. Cue in: Musicae Dramatica as the fanboi brigade rolls into the thread. ______________ Mal-¦Appears we got here just in a nick of time. What does that make us?¦ Zoe-`Big damn heroes, sir.` Mal-¦Aint we just.¦
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Veto Corp	Posted - 2011.01.10 12:37:00 - [12] As long as I can have a beer in a bar watching exotic dancers I will be happy. Ok, a bit more realistic expectation for the first release would be access to the captains quarters and maybe some communal area. I do hope CCP has balls enough to add some in space flying affecting content that can't be done from the pod (such as trading suitable goods on a black market with no NPC tax, or maybe trade kill rights).
ivar R'dhak	Posted - 2011.01.10 12:48:00 - [13] Originally by: Tres Farmer Personally I'm way more worried about the state of the current utilisation of space (40-50 places of interest per system) the tightening bottleneck that gates symbolise and the growing player numbers. Jita reaching the cap now every weekend is a sign of crowding and so far there is no word what CCP thinks about this. I wouldn't even dare to ask what they are going to do about it.. AFAIK they can¦t do much about it. They trick around by offloading the market from the node, but ultimately CCP programmed themselves into a corner when they decided to simulate a whole solar system(node) in one processor thread only. Then the industry decided to substitute the Megahertz race with "who can cram the most cores uselessly onto a die" and CCP is fracked, as they can¦t throw higher clocked hardware at the problem anymore. ______________ Mal-¦Appears we got here just in a nick of time. What does that make us?¦ Zoe-`Big damn heroes, sir.` Mal-¦Aint we just.¦
Halcyon Ingenium Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact	Posted - 2011.01.10 12:48:00 - [14] Originally by: Mashie Saldana (such as trading suitable goods on a black market with no NPC tax, or maybe trade kill rights). Wouldn't it be awesome if they brought back smuggling to aid the high sec black market, bah, why do I bother getting my hopes up.
ivar R'dhak	Posted - 2011.01.10 12:59:00 - [15] Originally by: Halcyon Ingenium This will be his reaction to Incarna. No this. ______________ Mal-¦Appears we got here just in a nick of time. What does that make us?¦ Zoe-`Big damn heroes, sir.` Mal-¦Aint we just.¦
Halcyon Ingenium Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact	Posted - 2011.01.10 13:04:00 - [16] Originally by: ivar R'dhak Originally by: Halcyon Ingenium This will be his reaction to Incarna. No this. Hahahaha, you've bested me sir, I tip my hat to you.
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.01.10 13:14:00 - [17] Originally by: TriadSte Originally by: Tres Farmer As for gameplay in Incarna, I still hope for a lounge that enables me to see outside the station while I'm docked. Can't ever happen as incarna will be on a totally different node to the "outside" world, However it indeed would be awesome-sause to watch ships dock/undock watch some pew pew from inside station. Who says you can't get spectator data from another node while you're on the incarna node? I mean.. what do you really need for this to work? Positions and stuff for ships on grid at that very station.. data the cluster does send to other clients on that grid anyways. So, just plug in another node (spectator node) that gets this kind of data and acts to the space simulation node like another computer somewhere on the net. Let this pectator node then relay the data he got from the space simulation node to the computer on the net who wants to look out side the station. Case closed. support Public Idea Tracker \| 24hr PLEX
OneTimeAt BannedSpank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2011.01.10 13:20:00 - [18] Incarna is a load of crap and needs to be canned. ~
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.01.10 13:25:00 - [19] Originally by: ivar R'dhak Originally by: Tres Farmer Personally I'm way more worried about the state of the current utilisation of space (40-50 places of interest per system) the tightening bottleneck that gates symbolise and the growing player numbers. Jita reaching the cap now every weekend is a sign of crowding and so far there is no word what CCP thinks about this. I wouldn't even dare to ask what they are going to do about it.. AFAIK they can¦t do much about it. They trick around by offloading the market from the node, but ultimately CCP programmed themselves into a corner when they decided to simulate a whole solar system(node) in one processor thread only. Then the industry decided to substitute the Megahertz race with "who can cram the most cores uselessly onto a die" and CCP is fracked, as they can¦t throw higher clocked hardware at the problem anymore. What do obvious bottlenecks in gamedesign have to do with the hardware driving it? We got ships moving all over new eden all the time without any involvement of the gates. We even can move via jumpclones without a range restriction (besides whisky space). What would it help to have faster processors? Would this change anything on the jumpgates and the mechanic behind it? Would this change anything on places of interest per solar system? Some example: If you got a big parkland with some toys for kids in one corner, a small lake, a bmx-course and a greenfield. Now add a small crowd of kids and adults into that and there will be enough for anyone to play with and no one bothers anyone else very much. Fast forward.. the kids and adults have increased by 350% and you did add some skateboard-pipes and maybe a climbing rock so your number of attractions increased by 66%. You're telling me now, that if everyone in that park would speed up his actions we'd be aces?! support Public Idea Tracker \| 24hr PLEX
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.01.10 13:26:00 - [20] Originally by: Tres Farmer I mean.. what do you really need for this to work? You need the physics engine to allow people to be in more place than one at any given time and allow more than one person to share one and the same location. Currently, neither is possible, and as a result "spectators" cannot exist. A solution in the current engine would require you to "ghost-undock" and look at the world outside with your own eyes, without actually taking your pod with you but still handling it as if you had undocked. That's a rather kludgy solution, though, and not something they can really build on. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.01.10 13:32:00 - [21] Edited by: Tres Farmer on 10/01/2011 13:34:12 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Tres Farmer I mean.. what do you really need for this to work? You need the physics engine to allow people to be in more place than one at any given time and allow more than one person to share one and the same location. Currently, neither is possible, and as a result "spectators" cannot exist. A solution in the current engine would require you to "ghost-undock" and look at the world outside with your own eyes, without actually taking your pod with you but still handling it as if you had undocked. That's a rather kludgy solution, though, and not something they can really build on. You don't need to be part of the space simulation to be able to recreate the very data the spacesimulation does calculate and sends you afterwards. The space simulation calculates the interaction of any object that's in space (shipXY is at X,Y,Z and has a speed vector of Vx,Vy,Vz. same for all other objetcs, etc.. pp). You now take that data (remember the drake lag blog about how the space simulation sends a STANDARD package of data to everyone on the grid?) and just put every object at the spot where the simulation has calculated it to be. Now you can go and spectate in that space without the need to be part of the simulation. So can anyone else who wants to. support Public Idea Tracker \| 24hr PLEX
LordOfDespair	Posted - 2011.01.10 13:33:00 - [22] Originally by: Bomberlocks While the CSM minutes for the latest summit have not yet been released there has been a makred change in the attitude of the 3 most committed and hard working CSM members with regards to the next expansion, such that they are now all acutely depressed about will happen with respect to (the lack of) Incarna gameplay. While all of them are being brave souls and sticking to the NDA, it is becoming pretty obvious that the team leads responsible for Incarna, Torfi and Noah, still have no story or gameplay. This about 6 to 8 months before Incarna is due to be released and after 5 years of development, which sort of makes it very likely that there will still be nothing by the time Incarna is released. In addition to this there is a strong feeling (admittedly still rumour) that Incarna will not be optional, and in stronger cases a fear that docking, marketplay, switching ships etc, will all have to go through Incarna. So I'll just say this: If this is true when the expansion comes out, I'm just going to quit. I won't rage or make the usual dozens of posts on the topic like I usually do, I'll just go. I don't have the energy to rage about a computer game again like I did last summer. I'm not the only one either. I think you at CCP don't realise that the excellent work you've done since the Tyranis farce and debacle doesn't somehow give you a license in the eyes of the players to going back to putting out a heap of shiny but otherwise hollow crap instead of decent game content and improvements. Just thought you should know. If you leave... Can I have your stuff please?
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2011.01.10 13:34:00 - [23] Actually, I am looking forward to this. I am hoping they can integrate it with the main game that having toons and doing things with them will do something cool in-game. Maybe we can have something like Vest of Evasion that has nanites that enhances the user's body so that the user gets a -5% to ship agility. It works like implants. You could also have nanites infused tattoos to help with piloting skills and they all work like implants. I would drool over it. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Go vote! Put voice for silent majority. LOVE PVP, HATE grief
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Veto Corp	Posted - 2011.01.10 13:41:00 - [24] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Tres Farmer I mean.. what do you really need for this to work? You need the physics engine to allow people to be in more place than one at any given time and allow more than one person to share one and the same location. Currently, neither is possible, and as a result "spectators" cannot exist. A solution in the current engine would require you to "ghost-undock" and look at the world outside with your own eyes, without actually taking your pod with you but still handling it as if you had undocked. That's a rather kludgy solution, though, and not something they can really build on. An easier way would be to just have a fixed camera outside the undock and then have that picture streamed to screens inside the station, just like Jita cam during the Alliance Tournament / Fanfest. There are already screenshots of screens showing videos in the stations so the tech is already there. Sure you won't get the overview but why would you get that information if you aren't inside a pod? Sure this means they need to set up dedicated nodes to generate those streams but doable for the more popular stations at least.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.01.10 13:44:00 - [25] Edited by: Tippia on 10/01/2011 13:46:31 Originally by: Tres Farmer You don't need to be physically at any place inside a space simulation to be able to recreate the very data the spacesimulation does calculate. [etc] That would be the "ghost-undocking" solution I presented, which isn't a particularly good one. To do more, you'd have to be fed all that data, for which you'd need to have a "presence" (for the lack of a better term) in space. Sure, as a spectator, you wouldn't send any interactive data back, but you still have to have that presenceà and the key problem is that the game doesn't allow that. That's all I'm saying: yes, having a spectator of some sort would allow us to look outside stations. The problem is that the game can't do spectators because they require one of two (and preferably both) things: being present to receive data from more than one place at once, and sharing your presence with other players (e.g. everyone receives data from the same spectator object). Originally by: Mashie Saldana An easier way would be to just have a fixed camera outside the undock and then have that picture streamed to screens inside the station, just like Jita cam during the Alliance Tournament / Fanfest. There are already screenshots of screens showing videos in the stations so the tech is already there The problem with that is that it would be prohibitively costly in bandwidth and it wouldn't allow me to customise the information coming in (which would most likely render it rather worthless). ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.01.10 13:44:00 - [26] Originally by: Mashie Saldana Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Tres Farmer I mean.. what do you really need for this to work? You need the physics engine to allow people to be in more place than one at any given time and allow more than one person to share one and the same location. Currently, neither is possible, and as a result "spectators" cannot exist. A solution in the current engine would require you to "ghost-undock" and look at the world outside with your own eyes, without actually taking your pod with you but still handling it as if you had undocked. That's a rather kludgy solution, though, and not something they can really build on. An easier way would be to just have a fixed camera outside the undock and then have that picture streamed to screens inside the station, just like Jita cam during the Alliance Tournament / Fanfest. There are already screenshots of screens showing videos in the stations so the tech is already there. Sure you won't get the overview but why would you get that information if you aren't inside a pod? Sure this means they need to set up dedicated nodes to generate those streams but doable for the more popular stations at least. video stream + video stream generating cpu/gpu run by ccp vs. a simple copy of the data stream everyone else outside the station gets already support Public Idea Tracker \| 24hr PLEX
Jaina Sunspot Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2011.01.10 13:47:00 - [27] I will be happy with a Bar, a Cold Drink and my Corp Mates. That is all, but if you want to add more don't let me stop you.
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.01.10 13:53:00 - [28] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Tres Farmer You don't need to be physically at any place inside a space simulation to be able to recreate the very data the spacesimulation does calculate. [etc] That would be the "ghost-undocking" solution I presented, which isn't a particularly good one. To do more, you'd have to be fed all that data, for which you'd need to have a "presence" (for the lack of a better term) in space. Sure, as a spectator, you wouldn't send any interactive data back, but you still have to have that presenceà and the key problem is that the game doesn't allow that. That's all I'm saying: yes, having a spectator of some sort would allow us to look outside stations. The problem is that the game can't do spectators because they require one of two (and preferably both) things: being present to receive data from more than one place at once, and sharing your presence with other players (e.g. everyone receives data from the same spectator object). Every ship on a grid gets a standard, normalized datapackage with the position and speed of any other (visible) ship/can/missile/wreck/drone/roid/etc.. on that grid. Where would now please arise the need for a spectator to be part of that datapackages data? Why would other spectators or players on that grid need the position or speed of the spectator? Why would the space simulation need his position and speed for? The specatator just needs that datapackage and he can draw all ships and their positions and speedvecotrs on his own machine for that grid. The datapackage is the same for the drake just undocking or the interceptor orbiting the station at 50km or the cloaked recon at 150km out. All got the same datapackage (except for the recons position/speed, that was removed by the server before being send to the drake or the interceptor). The positions and speed vectors are tied to the origin of a coordinate system based on the solar system. You could even get positions for ships at the other side of the solar system just jumping into it or that barge in the belt 30au away. You got the position, the speedvector and the coordinate origin. You can now draw everything where it should be according to the space simulation and can run around in spectator mode without any interaction at all. support Public Idea Tracker \| 24hr PLEX
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Veto Corp	Posted - 2011.01.10 13:55:00 - [29] Originally by: Tres Farmer video stream + video stream generating cpu/gpu run by ccp vs. a simple copy of the data stream everyone else outside the station gets already And then you have to load the textures both for the inside and the outside of the station and render it all. Sure if it can be done from a performance point of view it would be nice. I'm not sure the client/server code will do that without having the entire solar system loaded up on the client with an associated session change on top.
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.01.10 14:02:00 - [30] Originally by: Mashie Saldana Originally by: Tres Farmer video stream + video stream generating cpu/gpu run by ccp vs. a simple copy of the data stream everyone else outside the station gets already And then you have to load the textures both for the inside and the outside of the station and render it all. Sure if it can be done from a performance point of view it would be nice. I'm not sure the client/server code will do that without having the entire solar system loaded up on the client with an associated session change on top. Well, that's CCPs part to figure out :) That's why I proposed a Lounge instead of a video screen in the main hall support Public Idea Tracker \| 24hr PLEX

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Incarna is a load of crap and needs to be canned.