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Jayson Lee
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2011.01.13 21:23:00 -
[1]
They have served thier purpose buts its time to remove them. The current setup of stargates and ship movement is holding EVE back. Now I know this will have impact on all parts of eve and will be impossible to cover all aspects that may be effected, but lets hit the main points.
In order to move from system to system, allow ships to use the current warp drive feature. Make it possible to move from one system to another simply by pointing the nose in that direction and starting the engine. This could take a very long while, but doable. This will remove choke points and open up space to everyone.
I suggest that we install "highways" to facilate increased speed and help bring people closer together. The idea being that if you travel along the highway you move faster and you wont have to recharge the batterys. Now this highway will not lead to any one system but it will be closer to some than others. Keep it in high density, high sec space. You dont have to use it, but it will speed up movement.
Now for the local effects, lets remove local chat because with out stargates there is no more "local". Spread out the asteroids/encounters/etc through out the system and do away with set hardpoints for roids. Have them spawn in random areas with no regard to location. In fact make some of the best roids in deep space far away from the highways or planets.
I would also suggest making the following changes in local. Remove local chat, as there is now no longer a local area. Make ships light up a scanner/radar when they use thier engines, bigger ships make bigger targets. Put in the game new types of radar/scanners/etc. For example you could have a passive deployable scanner that does not give away position but only detects those objects that emit noise. Or you could use a scanner that, like sonar, sends out a pulse to locate other ships. It gives away your position but its much better at finding ships.
I know this is kinda vague and its not a completly fleshed out theory, so let me know what you think, good/bad/ugly
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Mette Vuns
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Posted - 2011.01.13 21:30:00 -
[2]
just quietly turn around and walk away !
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Anubis Xian
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.13 21:41:00 -
[3]
I suggested giving everyone jump drives and letting people starjump. I've also suggested Transwarp.
But Eve players would rather keep things more difficult and less intuitive in the name of... 'faster'.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
CINA
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Ben Johnson
Gallente Deep Space Constructions
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Posted - 2011.01.13 21:58:00 -
[4]
No.
Also:
Originally by: Anubis Xian I suggested giving everyone jump drives and letting people starjump. I've also suggested Transwarp.
But Eve players would rather keep things more difficult and less intuitive in the name of... 'faster'.
Oh yeah I remember that, yes sir that was a fail thread. ___________________________________________ CEO of Deep Space Constructions --WEBSITE UNDER CONSTRUCTION-- |
Anubis Xian
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.13 22:04:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Ben Johnson No.
Also:
Originally by: Anubis Xian I suggested giving everyone jump drives and letting people starjump. I've also suggested Transwarp.
But Eve players would rather keep things more difficult and less intuitive in the name of... 'faster'.
Oh yeah I remember that, yes sir that was a fail thread.
Actually alternatives to stargates used to be more openly received. It is only the modern eve playerbase that hates any progressive technology development in eve.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
CINA
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Zanzbar
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Posted - 2011.01.13 22:13:00 -
[6]
The use of stargates allows the server to beak up the systems into dffernt simulations to be run on differnt processors. Its tthe only way eve is able to handel the entire playerbase on one server cluster. If you lose stargates you get rid of the main way eves server load is broken up and therefore make the single shard universe a much more difficult feat then it already is.
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Catheryn Martobi
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Posted - 2011.01.13 22:32:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Zanzbar The use of stargates allows the server to beak up the systems into dffernt simulations to be run on differnt processors. Its tthe only way eve is able to handel the entire playerbase on one server cluster. If you lose stargates you get rid of the main way eves server load is broken up and therefore make the single shard universe a much more difficult feat then it already is.
True, but it wouldn't be impossible. Stargates are bad design. We need to eventually move away from them. Instantaneous travel is bad, so I don't want every ship to have jump drives, but having a sort of fast warp between systems would be fun. You could also implement some sort of deep space anomalies that are hard to find, but immensely profitable between the stars.
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Galandil
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Posted - 2011.01.13 22:46:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Catheryn Martobi You could also implement some sort of deep space anomalies that are hard to find, but immensely profitable between the stars.
Its called Wormhole space.
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Jayson Lee
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2011.01.13 22:50:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Ben Johnson No.
Also:
Originally by: Anubis Xian I suggested giving everyone jump drives and letting people starjump. I've also suggested Transwarp.
But Eve players would rather keep things more difficult and less intuitive in the name of... 'faster'.
Oh yeah I remember that, yes sir that was a fail thread.
Could you expand on why you say no?
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Jagga Spikes
Minmatar Spikes Chop Shop
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Posted - 2011.01.13 22:59:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Catheryn Martobi ...
Stargates are bad design. We need to eventually move away from them. Instantaneous travel is bad, so I don't want every ship to have jump drives, but having a sort of fast warp between systems would be fun. You could also implement some sort of deep space anomalies that are hard to find, but immensely profitable between the stars.
why would stargates have to change? it's quite sensible design, both for actual implementation and technobabble. ________________________________ : Forum Bore 'Em : Foamy The Squirrel - [jedi handwave] "There is no spoon." |
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Jayson Lee
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2011.01.13 23:12:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Zanzbar The use of stargates allows the server to beak up the systems into dffernt simulations to be run on differnt processors. Its tthe only way eve is able to handel the entire playerbase on one server cluster. If you lose stargates you get rid of the main way eves server load is broken up and therefore make the single shard universe a much more difficult feat then it already is.
\
But lets not forget the current setup of stargate choke points is leading to some of the largest lagfest in eve. If you could spread out the area of space that is actually used, maybe these massive fleet battles would be easier to handle. Forcing fleets to fight over hundreds and thousands of kilometers rather than around a single gate would be a drastic improvment.
I dont think it would be that difficult to handle, you could still have "shards" of systems. Just have 1 sever handle a planet until you get 200au away from the star then switch over to a new server. I would think it would be rather seamless to do this because in that deep of space you wouldnt have many object to render. Could be wrong though I know nothing about programing.
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Drakarin
Gallente Absentia Libertas Solus
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Posted - 2011.01.13 23:50:00 -
[12]
This idea will be shot down before it leaves the room. The playerbase simple are not interested in anything that brings them into the game. It's a simple FPS shooter to them, minus the fps.
Anything relating to role-playing or atmospheric changes or additions just aren't acceptable.
Someone on these forums said that a Dev wanted EvE to be the ultimate sci-fi MMORPG sandbox, for everyone. I guess that dev was fired soon after or something, because CCP is cattering to one crowd and one crowd only. It's a damn shame if you ask me. So much potential going to waste on a glorified ship arena.
Haven't any of you watched Star Trek? It's not just about the combat, or the ship, it's about looking out into the great abyss and reaching for the unknown. There's none of that here.
You can't just point your ship in one direction and explore. There aren't any mysteries or secrets or uncharted areas. None of that at all.
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TheBooky
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Posted - 2011.01.13 23:58:00 -
[13]
Here are the problems I see without stargates
1. Servers are no longer sharded and unlike suggested would not cut lag. Now the server would have to determine whether you are on server x or server y and then load you if you decide to turn back. Also null-sec( the center for lag generation) would still move in blobs meaning more lag since now the server must determine which of the 1000 people are on which server. Since you can not see people on other servers ( gates prevent this from being a problem) than lags will be split for short times ( longer with lag).
2. Freighters go from a day for 30 jumps to weeks. I am sure you would not be happy to be that freighter pilot that now has up to a week to get across the universe. While it might be faster for most people it will hinder the markets and destroy the eve economy.
3. With the roids not being at a set location miners must now fit a scanner and move between systems. This means less people willing to mine and higher overall cost.You think 1bil is bad for a t3 wait until the miners quit and its 5 bil.
4. local removal has more threads on why its bad than any other subject on these forums, read one of those.
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RaptorXL
Caldari Tax Evasion R US
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Posted - 2011.01.14 00:06:00 -
[14]
Actually every single WH is uncharted, you just might not be the only one there.
I don't see you being able to get rid of stargates. The closest I see happening would be stargates are used to initiate the warp between stars like curtrently, but you drop out of warp in a random location. So fleet battles would no longer be fought by coming in through stargates, but rather you fight yo blocade people from leaving. It may not be a complete solution, but it may solve part of the choke issue. Also I guess to role playing element would be the sansha uploaded a virus in the stargate network that disrupts the recieving gates from dropping you out of the artificial wormhole right beside the gate?
I dunno, flame away.
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Shinu janai
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Posted - 2011.01.14 00:14:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Jayson Lee Edited by: Jayson Lee on 13/01/2011 23:26:38
But lets not forget the current setup of stargate choke points is leading to some of the largest lagfest in eve. If you could spread out the area of space that is actually used, maybe these massive fleet battles would be easier to handle. Forcing fleets to fight over hundreds and thousands of kilometers rather than around a single gate would be a drastic improvement.
This is so horridly wrong I cant even begin to explain it. Fleets form because with 2 ships its easier to kill 1. All you need to do is look at real life navy fleets to know that ships don't spread out just because they can. they still form fleets and roam that way, even in an open world. Fleets will always exist and they will always engage other fleets. It happens deal with it.
Right now we have vast areas of low/null sec that no one uses because they cant get to it. Also, the way we have the systems set up its too easy for miners to be found so no one wants to work in low sec.
Again wrong. If you where either more adventurous or more inclined to fight you'd know that really there isn't a system you can find that empty for more than a few mins. Ive seen 2 day old chars that are not alts in the furthest reaches of 0.0 space. And miners are supposed to be easy to find. this is not wow with instanced play. You are not supposed to be free to make all the isk you want and have no risks. That would destroy this game as it stands.
Lets free up the pilots, remove the restrictions we currently have. If you could find belts/rats/plex anywhere in EVE, think about the possibilities.
Finally you get something right... Why don't we all sit around a camp fire and hold hands and sing pleasant songs of love and harmony. Lets make eve a player friendly game where anyone can do anything they want with no risk. At the same time lets make the server load so high, by effectively making the eve map 10^n power larger, that a single fleet fight anywhere would crash the servers.
Another problem with your plan is you assume that changing the gate system would not effect anything else in the game. This is wrong
#1: The current Market system relies on the gate system to maintain order and segregate the markets by region.(this increases the complexity of the eve economy and thereby increase the Trade ability and fun of "crafting" in this game)
#2: The PVP would actually become worse with this line of thought as there would be no safe zones for players in "high sec". A pirate would be able to blob a hauler in jita and aim his or her ship towards a low sec system and initiate warp. Concord would never be able to catch them.
#3: Not to be a Role play carebear but common guy how do you get rid of stargates without destroying the cannon of eve? Stargates have been in so many cornicles that to remove them would effectivly make the current eve universe a new one rather than the one players like myself have known for years. Currently the cannon tells us that warp drives are fast enough for system travel but takes YEARS! at times to get to other star systems.
#4: You wanna kill travel times in eve? some systems in eve are 100 AU in diameter hich is about 15b kilos. where as as earths closest star system is 1 light year = just under 10 trillion kilos. at the fastest 12 or 13 au possible currently in game it takes 8+ seconds to traverse systems this size. To travel 1Ly would take 666 times as long. In other words it would take you 1 and a half hours. current estimates of the eve universe place it at around 200ly from end to end. That's 300 hours of travel time..........
Thanks but no thanks. I'll stick with star gates. This isn't star wars where we travel accross the galaxy in 10 days.
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RuairiEVE
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Posted - 2011.01.14 00:34:00 -
[16]
I like the idea, but this is how I'd do it.
1) There is no need to change the current shard setup for systems. Warping between systems would change shard just like normal you're just not going through a gate to do it. You cannot warp to systems further than a set distance (which would work out the same as the current stargate distances û so youÆd still have to make the same amount of jumps through the same systems you do now to get from A to B). 2) When setting a route between distant systems, the autopilot would still route you the normal way, except you would stop at a main station at each waypoint rather than a stargate. 3) When warping to an adjacent system (normally connected by a star gate), you can choose which celestial object you want to warp to.
This has a bunch of good effects: 1) Stops gate camps 2) Fleets can be more tactical when jumping into a system 3) Someone travelling through Nullsec/lowsec no longer has to go through choke points; they can simply jump into some random moon or planet in a system, align themselves and jump to some random point in the next system until they get where they need to go. 4) Will open up new trade routes as people will find it easier to sneak in and through systems.
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Jayson Lee
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2011.01.14 00:35:00 -
[17]
Originally by: TheBooky Here are the problems I see without stargates
1. Servers are no longer sharded and unlike suggested would not cut lag. Now the server would have to determine whether you are on server x or server y and then load you if you decide to turn back. Also null-sec( the center for lag generation) would still move in blobs meaning more lag since now the server must determine which of the 1000 people are on which server. Since you can not see people on other servers ( gates prevent this from being a problem) than lags will be split for short times ( longer with lag).
2. Freighters go from a day for 30 jumps to weeks. I am sure you would not be happy to be that freighter pilot that now has up to a week to get across the universe. While it might be faster for most people it will hinder the markets and destroy the eve economy.
3. With the roids not being at a set location miners must now fit a scanner and move between systems. This means less people willing to mine and higher overall cost.You think 1bil is bad for a t3 wait until the miners quit and its 5 bil.
4. local removal has more threads on why its bad than any other subject on these forums, read one of those.
Let me try to respond.
1. As for determining if you are on server y or x, couldnt they have some overlap on the border regions to help cut down on moving bewteen zones? Im not sure I follow on the second part. I know people group together because its advantages, but its also very easy to do this simply because there is only a very few places an opposing force can come into the system.
If you are trying to protect a system with one entrance, you blob, but what if ships can come into the system from any direction? Hit and run multipule targets. You would have to break up your fleet to counter this.
Now I could be wrong, but isnt the lag caused by too many ships in a small area? Trying to relay all that information to every ship? If you spread them out, even if they are in the same system, wouldnt that reduce lag? If you put in a fog of war concept where you cant see the entire battlefield, wouldnt that help?
2. I suggested you could have highways, areas of space that travel is sped up. I dont see how this could slow things down, i dont see how it would destroy the economy
3. I didnt get into security because it would be a major topic on its own, but to briefly suggest this; that you still have areas of high sec, but as you move out from those areas you gradually get into a less secure area. I also suggested adding defensive scanners to allow a player to know when they are being scanned
4. Removing local is a bad idea, unless you change up some features, such as the fact that roids are always in the same place, you have to jump in and out at the same place, and there is currently very little one can do to hide from a pirate. If you make it tougher to find someone, and give them tools to allow them to know when they are being scanned, removing local is not such a bad idea.
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Jayson Lee
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2011.01.14 01:01:00 -
[18]
Quote: This is so horridly wrong I cant even begin to explain it. Fleets form because with 2 ships its easier to kill 1. All you need to do is look at real life navy fleets to know that ships don't spread out just because they can. they still form fleets and roam that way, even in an open world. Fleets will always exist and they will always engage other fleets. It happens deal with it.
I understand what you are saying, but if you take away the choke points, and open up all of the systems to possible attack, would a corp/alliance really keep all of thier ships in one space? If I was the opposing force I would have a field day. You would be leaving open vast amounts of territory for hit and run raids. Why take on your blob when we can go around it?
Also, why the anger? Did I offend you in some way or are you attempting to legitimize your point of view by acting this way? Just curious.
Quote: Again wrong. If you where either more adventurous or more inclined to fight you'd know that really there isn't a system you can find that empty for more than a few mins. Ive seen 2 day old chars that are not alts in the furthest reaches of 0.0 space. And miners are supposed to be easy to find. this is not wow with instanced play. You are not supposed to be free to make all the isk you want and have no risks. That would destroy this game as it stands.
One or two characters in a system? Just look at the current map and you can see a vast number of systems that are empty simply because groups cannot get to them. Who said I wanted to make all the isk I want with no risk? Did you read the entire post, or do you just like to argue? Along with removing local, I suggested adding new types of deployable gear to help track down miners/ratters/etc. I am all for risk, why else would I be trying to open up null sec? If you make all the systems up for grabs I think you will have more pew pew rather than less.
As for your last paragraph;
Your first paragraph lost me, i keep reading it and all i can think is there are some personal issues you need to deal with.
1. I find it odd that the gates, which make travel very easy is what keeps the regions seperate in your mind? Wouldnt makeing travel more difficult actually increase the importance of regions?
2. As i mentioned in the previous posters respone, I did not touch the high sec security issues as it was a major topic in itself. I do have some ideas about it as well, but I never invisioned removing areas of high sec
3. How do jump drives work? What is wrong with coming up with a new technology? A new engine type? This game is evolving and I see nothing wrong with adding a new technology.
4. I dont want to kill travel times in EVE, i did mention the highway idea. I want to open up travel and make more of EVE available. I am ok with the engine speed being changed to accomodate the new type of travel, in fact I was counting on it.
Ships can use one engine for local travel in system, then once the are outside of a certain range of the star they can use the new engine to get to where ever they want. But if you want to travel faster, in high sec, you can use the highway network. A system of beacons that allows you to travel faster and without stoping from one point to another. This highway wont stop at any one system but some will be closer to it that others.
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DrDooma
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Posted - 2011.01.14 01:35:00 -
[19]
There is already wormhole space that does everything you asking for.
You and your æremove local chatÆ posts get funnier by the post. Please keep it up.
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Jayson Lee
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2011.01.14 01:37:00 -
[20]
Originally by: DrDooma There is already wormhole space that does everything you asking for.
You and your æremove local chatÆ posts get funnier by the post. Please keep it up.
I dont see how wormhole space does much of anything that I ask. Also can you expand on whats funny about removing local chat?
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mkmin
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Posted - 2011.01.14 03:16:00 -
[21]
There are really only a few things I could see that would make this feasible.
1) The entire edge of the system functions as a stargate. you use a standard warp to get to the edge of the system and then a system-jump that deposits you on the edge of the system you are trying to get to. System-jumps would still have a session change like normal, the only significant difference being stargates no longer show up on the overview.
2) only works within a constellation. stargates would still be needed to travel over constellation and regional boundaries, as the space between those systems can often be many LY apart.
3) An improvement of the in-game map. As it stands, the in-game map is only really useful for statistical information. It's awkward and laggy and would not be a fun game mechanic to be required to use.
Could a well balanced game mechanic be introduced that makes this idea fun? Yes. Would it have a sufficient payoff to make it worth losing the current established system? Probably not.
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Corina Jarr
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Posted - 2011.01.14 05:10:00 -
[22]
I do really hope you are not suggesting that warp drives remain the same speed. If that were the case, travelling ten jumps in the fastest ship would take over a year.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2011.01.14 06:54:00 -
[23]
Man, what is up with the noobs lately? Eve didn't have jump gates when the game first went live. It was very boring. Gates provide choke points to force player interaction. Quit trying to set EVE back to the stone age.
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Anubis Xian
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.14 07:41:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Eve didn't have jump gates when the game first went live.
What did it have?
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
CINA
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TEST NOOBIE
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Posted - 2011.01.14 08:21:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Man, what is up with the noobs lately? Eve didn't have jump gates when the game first went live. It was very boring. Gates provide choke points to force player interaction. Quit trying to set EVE back to the stone age.
Could you go into more detail with that?
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knobber Jobbler
Executive Intervention Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.14 11:07:00 -
[26]
Don't remove stargates, just change it so a stargate isn't the entry point to a system, just the exit point.
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Vabjekf
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.14 11:46:00 -
[27]
They cant remove gates because gates are part of the lore. Though i agree the game mechanics would be better with out gates.
The idea of making them only exit points, and have you just randomly appear somewhere in the system when you jump in, is a good one.
Changing the way jump drives work is also to not require any outside help, but just pick a system and off you go is also a good idea. Maybe make it so cyno greatly extends the range of a jump, but you can jump with out one.
Also let subcaps fit a jump drive module in a hi slot. Distance can be based on module stats and ship mass.
A total removal of the gate system would have been neat though. It could have made hauling things an actual profession, with 'space truckers'.
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Horizonist
Yulai Guard 2nd Fleet Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.14 12:53:00 -
[28]
Originally by: knobber Jobbler Don't remove stargates, just change it so a stargate isn't the entry point to a system, just the exit point.
This is actually a really interesting idea
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Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
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Posted - 2011.01.14 13:01:00 -
[29]
Originally by: knobber Jobbler Don't remove stargates, just change it so a stargate isn't the entry point to a system, just the exit point.
Then how do we stop unwanted entities from entering our systems? Bubble the exit gate to one's wit's end? ---
Creator of the Eve Character Appraiser/Assembler: http://gemblog.nl/skill/ http://gemblog.nl/assembler/
Originally by: De'Veldrin Welcome to the ****ing sandbox
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Vicky Somers
Caldari Rusty Anchor
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Posted - 2011.01.14 14:08:00 -
[30]
Removing stargates would be silly and counter-productive. Having said that, I would love for EVE to have an alternative (& optional) way of deep space exploration & travel. As a space-sim I bet many fans of the genre would love the ability to float around in space and scan/probe to navigate and explore this huge world. Wormholes was a good step in this direction but it still feels a bit claustrophobic.
I can already think of two really awesome features. One would obviously be to go around dangerous choke points in relative safety, but for instance risk getting lost and ending up in really dangerous space. Another feature would be to have pockets (like large empty space between systems) in high sec where concord can't respond to aggression. These unexplored pockets (sub-systems) in known space could hold some really high paying rewards, the ability to outrun the law, set up pirate operation, drug manufacturing, no anchoring & production restrictions, etc... Fun for hire! |
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