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Wrangler
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Posted - 2005.01.22 01:59:00 -
[1]
Recently we saw that bumping was becoming the new big thing on the market forums, when we started to fix the problem there were some protests, but also relief from other players.
In the end, it is whats best for the community, not some rule we wrote that might be better in most forums but not in all. Thats why we have the sticky read before posting threads. These stickys can modify the rules, remove certain rules or add rules. However, if it isn't mentioned in the read before posting then the original forum rules apply.
As it is now, bumping threads isn't allowed. The forums are for the community, not a single person or a smaller group. If people feel that it is necessary to discuss something they will, and if no one is interested the thread will fall down. The problem with bumping is that some threads might be bumped to stay on top despite the fact that the community finds other threads more interesting. This is basically cheating, you make sure your thread is on top instead of another thread that might be more interesting, maybe not to you but to more people.
The same goes in the market forum, if people are interested they will bid or post something similar. If they're not interested, then they won't post and your auction will drop down.
What a lot of people are really suggesting is that we allow the ones with a lot of time to bump up their threads, despite the fact that other threads are more interesting. We're willing to discuss it, even if I admit I haven't heard a good argument for it yet.
So, please post here and let us know if you think bumping is going to be allowed or not. Make sure you post why it should be allowed. Good arguments is better than big numbers in this case. This discussing will be guiding us when we discuss it internally, it will not be deciding if bumping is allowed or not.
Please remember that during the time this is discussed bumping will not be allowed, if it is allowed at a later point it will be announced and added to the read before posting stickys, if the result is that it won't be allowed, the stickys will reflect that as well.
DISCUSS!
[Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators] |
Wrangler
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Posted - 2005.01.22 02:10:00 -
[2]
Addition: If you have any suggestions for alternate ways to handle this issue, please post those as well here.
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Peko
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Posted - 2005.01.22 02:18:00 -
[3]
bumping never really bothered me - but making a new topic each time ur thread is off the 1st page might be a problem next - since all active players want there stuff sold quickly - imho id say bumping should be permitted.
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Emno
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Posted - 2005.01.22 02:30:00 -
[4]
Bumping lets active orders stay err active
But people can over bump stuff...
A bump a day is reasonable but more then that it just starts getting close to spam. |
Et alii
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Posted - 2005.01.22 02:46:00 -
[5]
Imo bumping on the sell forum is only good (limited amounts ofc) as i only read the first pages to get what is selling atm and a week long auction is easy to miss if it's not bumped as it gets drowned by shorter auctions and plain sell posts.
So im all for one to two bumps a day , more then that is spam imo tho.
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Arkive
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Posted - 2005.01.22 02:54:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Arkive on 22/01/2005 02:56:45
I had recently made a post on the Sell forum about bumping that was removed, which probably prompted a portion of this. I think it's great that the forum admins are taking this opportunity to listen to what folks think is for the good of the community instead of just doing what they want, which would clearly be the easy way out...hats off to ya guys.
Now, the post I made was purely in reference to the Sell forum (but could be applied to the Buy forum, or any future market-related forums). In general, I believe bumping is a bad idea on most forums as Wrangler pointed out; if there is interest, people will talk. However, in the Sell forum, much like any market, visibility rules all. However, all things should exist in moderation. Bumping every hour, or even a couple times a day is excessive, and annoying, and most importantly unfair to the other auctioneers who follow the rules. However, there are consequences to no bumping at all. If an item is never bumped, only the few who initially see it will be aware of it...and if the other bidders are forced out by one high roller that they know will take the item in the end (or they just plain forget about the item they bid on), the item is left to dwindle to the back pages after a day or two. What happens is the item (and many others like it) get no exposure, and as such, are unlikely to reach market value. The logical result is that the seller will choose not to auction the item, and likley place it on Escrow at an enormous price which will slowly fall until someone bites. As someone who buy modules regularly, hunting Escrow is almost as painful as self-dentistry.
I guess in summary, removing bumping altogether from the market forums will cripple them to the point of almost uselessness, as all but the very best-of-the-best items will fail to reach market vaule due to lack of visibility. I believe bumping should be regulated in these forums, not removed. Like the previous poster, I think a daily bump is fair, or whatever the community feels to be the just amount. Many thanks again to the mods for giving this issue some light instead of brushing it under the carpet.
*Edited for grammar and spelling...as usual*
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Wrangler
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Posted - 2005.01.22 02:54:00 -
[7]
Let me clarify myself, this thread isn't for complaining at anything, it is for discussing (post that caused this post were removed).
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Balki Gruniet
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Posted - 2005.01.22 03:14:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Balki Gruniet on 22/01/2005 03:14:16 It seems to me that the amount of BPOs being sold or auctioned in this topic is quite high i.e. about 50%. It would reduce the thread turnover if you had another topic for "Sell - BPO". Reducing the thread turnover would mean less requirement for bumping.
BG |
Gary Forthy
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Posted - 2005.01.22 03:20:00 -
[9]
Like Peko said, bumping never really bothered me, and I have to admit that I do it sometimes myself, but I don't over do it...I would prefer not to, but atm there is no way of allowing people to "see" your auctions when they drop below page three or so, and the amount of people posting on the sell forum makes that happend very fast.. it doesn't take many hours before your sell post is on page 6..unfortunatly
I tried running 2 identical auctions a while back, one with the occational bump, and one without. The winning bid ended up being alot higher on the one where I bumped once in a while BECAUSE more people would see it.
As you stated yourself in the opening post, if people find it interesting they will post, but you also wrote that bumping was a bad idea for the people that didn't have the oppertunity to stay on the forums all the time to do so, and would give some an advantage..but without some bumps they might never find the itmes they want either since they cannot stay on the forums all the time, and they would be missing out on the items for sale.
As for bumping outside the SELL forum I don't think its a good idea, but to sell your stuff its okay in my opinion if you don't over do it.
Though I would much rather have an ingame "auction" system as I like to roleplay, but its hard to sell your stuff this way. :(
Thats just my view on the matter.. :)
Gary ------------------- Do it once! And make it count! |
Muthsera
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Posted - 2005.01.22 03:28:00 -
[10]
To be honnest. I think it's a nessisary evil. To me it seems the only way to keep auctions and sell items current. And the pase the current sell forum is going at. You can't really expect it not to happend. Espesially on long lasting auctions/sales etc.
However.. I don't think it should be overly extensivly used. And looking down on it will help on the outragus ammounts of bumps. But that might just be me. SoonÖ
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J21french
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Posted - 2005.01.22 03:38:00 -
[11]
On a forum where there are new posts every few seconds or minute, your post is pushed off the 1st page very quickly, and thus bumping is necessary. Bumping imo should only be permitted if your auction is over X hours old AND is not on the front page (1st page).
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Jessa
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Posted - 2005.01.22 03:56:00 -
[12]
Its only when people go overboard, bumping the tread every hour. I think anyone that comes here to seriously buy items usually browses until the 5th or so page.
Maybe the new rule could be 'a bump a day keeps the mod away'
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EviL ElecTricIaN
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Posted - 2005.01.22 04:14:00 -
[13]
Edited by: EviL ElecTricIaN on 22/01/2005 04:15:55 simple... make it so the forum displays more topics per page... or is that too easy?
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Vessper
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Posted - 2005.01.22 04:14:00 -
[14]
I personally don't mind the bumping as it keeps active sell orders in the first few pages. The players selling their wares also have to consider themselves, and by not bumping their own thread, they are effectively confining their sell order to a life of obscurity in hundreds of other sell orders. This is not a fault of the forums, just the result of the vast number of people wishing to sell items. Banning the bumping will simply force players to exploit ways around it, maybe by getting alts/friends/corpmates to ask a question about the particular item for sale. If this happens, the forum moderators will have more problems trying to determine which are the genuine questions and which are the bumps.
I think what the forums are missing is a search utility where players can search within certain forum catagories for specific items. If players are able to do this easily, bumping may not be such an issue. Sellers would not have to stay on the forums continually in order to keep their items current.
By all means keep the forums sorted in date/time order, but adding a search feature would allow buyers to find that module without having to wade through 8 pages to find it.
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Kusotarre
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Posted - 2005.01.22 04:24:00 -
[15]
Bumping is good.
Excessive, frequent bumping is bad.
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Gungankllr
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Posted - 2005.01.22 06:25:00 -
[16]
I often like bumping by the seller, as it lets me know that the item is still for sale, and it hasn't made its way to page 42.
I think that the market system has become too robust for a simple "want to sell" forum, it needs to be broken down even further.
www.hadean.org
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polvo zangado
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Posted - 2005.01.22 07:07:00 -
[17]
My view on this is such, Eve is a worldwide game, and things that get put up for auction in one part of the world such as Europe may never get seen by a US crowd, or an Aussie crowd. This is where bumping becomes necessary. I don't like seeing lots of posts bumped but as someone said earlier it is kind of a necessary evil if you are trying to auction something and get a decent price. This also gives interested parties across the globe the chance to see your item.
Of course the arguement can be used that if your item has interest that it will be brought to the top by bidders. However, this is not always true for one of a kind modules and BPO's that Shiva has brought us. There are a lot of things that particular buyers are interested in, and even if it is a small crowd, I feel there voice needs to be heard to an extent. This helps both the buyers and the sellers. If you would like to compare it to Majority rules (High Profile items) Majority rights (Lower Profile Items).
One of the bigger issues I see however is sellers with items such as offices. We have seen over the last couple weeks instead of 1 post being made about a number of offices in a region, there are multiple. This in my opinion is a far worse situation. Maybe if these people were allowed a set number of bumps we wouldn't have this situation.
Basically bumps is the same as balance in the game. Some things are needed but everything needs to be held in check to allow everyone the equal opprotunity on the forums. Also, I think this open discussion of bumping is a great thing, it will help the Eve community give feedback about what they think is fair. After all this is a product and you want to keep your customers happy, good job forum mods on this discussion.
Polvo Zangado
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EMerkki
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Posted - 2005.01.22 07:16:00 -
[18]
Why not just break the sell forum to a few subforums? Like one for ship modules, implants, bp's etc.? Bumping is here because of s***load of posts and by dividing the forums your auctions would stay on pg1 longer. Also if you go hunting for new guns, you don't want to see 5 pages of bpo auctions? Ofcourse, implementing a search would be one solution, but I don't think that this skill is available atm..
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Lagartija Nick
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Posted - 2005.01.22 07:49:00 -
[19]
Give us a forum that displays more topics per page, and an actual, working search command for the forums and bumping will not be needed as badly as it is for the forums.
As it is, if you don't bump, your history. People are not going to wade through 6 pages of "[CLOSED]AUCTION: STUFF" to find what they want unless they are pretty desperate.
Or, alternatively, you could con the devs into giving us an in-game ebay-esque side market
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CactusSoul
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Posted - 2005.01.22 07:54:00 -
[20]
I think most posts so far have similar points, and I agree. Bumping is a necessary evil (partly because of different timezones) and a few bumps per day should/could be allowed but to much bumping quickly turns into spam.
I like the idea with market sub-forums for high-volume stuff like BPO's, however there is an other approach that I really would like to voice and that would benefit the entire forum, not just the marketsection:
- redesign the forums!
Ever since I started playing Eve it has evolved and is a much better game in every aspect - but the forums are the same bascilevel version. A decent searchfunction with possibility to search per forum, limit searches to certain days and ofc keywords would make these pages so much more useful.
This will not solve the bump issue more than to a certain extent, but if I could make a search for posts with the words "auction" and "bpo" that's not older than 7 days then I for one wouldn't see the same need for bumps.
There's a lot of great forumpackages out there (phpBB comes to mind) and I'm sure CCP can negotiate a decent price on whatever they fancy and import old content into a new GUI without taking that much effort away from all the new good stuff we want in-game...
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Wrangler
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Posted - 2005.01.22 07:59:00 -
[21]
If there was a search on forums we wouldn't even have this discussion.
As for an in game (or out of game) auction feature, go post in the idea labs.
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CactusSoul
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Posted - 2005.01.22 08:07:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Wrangler If there was a search on forums we wouldn't even have this discussion.
Well ... since I consider myself to be a pragmatic I'd say the problem is solved then.
Give us a searchfunction and not only solve this issue but also improve the overall forum-exprience!
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Qore
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Posted - 2005.01.22 08:11:00 -
[23]
Bumping should be allowed for all forums but especially the market forums. People type a funny story, someone replies.... "Hey nice story", so its 3 words... a bump is the same thing. Raises it for those that haven't seen it yet to enjoy it. Half of eve is in Bed while the other half plays you know..
For the forums its even more appropriate... here's a few points off the top of my head.
People that bid will purposely not reply and pray it goes to page 10 so they can claim a low price auction.
Bumping is a way for the seller to guarentee his product will be seen by all potential buyers.
Having a moderator remove bumps does no good because they've already served their purpose when he deletes the post. Kinda self defeating..
People will dodge the rule anyway by posting a time count down or a recap of top bidders, still doing the same thing as a simple bump would. I think we'd prefer not too cover our bumps, its senseless.
Reguardless... Auctions will never reach page 25, and drag on for months... most auctions end in 2-3 days tops. Then the post will disappear. No need to moderate it like you do everyother sections.
Friends sometimes will bump a thread for someone which is nice, and other times players may simply wanna "tag" the post to easily find later on. These things should be allowed. It hurts no one imho.
last point, if a person is excessively bumping his thread, that means he's getting no bids... so he'll either A) eventually get flamed lower his head and let his post die or B) Get no bids cause he's annoying, and if your annoying on the auctions you tend to get ignored. That truly seperates the market forums from other forums, due to the fact that in those, the annoying ones actually get respect for being annoying. =P
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Wrangler
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Posted - 2005.01.22 08:24:00 -
[24]
Originally by: CactusSoul
Originally by: Wrangler If there was a search on forums we wouldn't even have this discussion.
Well ... since I consider myself to be a pragmatic I'd say the problem is solved then.
Give us a searchfunction and not only solve this issue but also improve the overall forum-exprience!
Yea, I don't make the forums, I moderate them.
[Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators] |
AvanCade
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Posted - 2005.01.22 08:26:00 -
[25]
Bumping in market forum should be allowed for every 6 hours or 12 hours.
New threads in the market section arrise so fast, then you can be on page 3 in 30minutes. Making your thread worthless and left ignored.
However, a zillion bumps withing 12hourse, is really annoying, as it does not add anything to the thread.
My suggestion, allow a bump every 6 hours.
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Cordunius
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Posted - 2005.01.22 08:42:00 -
[26]
Bumping is a nessecity.. unforutanly some people do it to extremes..
i know when i am scannign thru auctiosn and sales and such..and i find a nice item that i cant afford.. but is good.. i will throw in a free bump.. and usualy a comment/compliment
thats a good bump.. if i find my auciton on the second page.. i will bump.. thats a good bump.. if my auciton still on first page.. and i bump.. thats a bad bump..
first page is visiabilty.. visibility gets things sold.. that simple.. dont let a few people ruin it for others.. use a little bit of manners
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FZappa
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Posted - 2005.01.22 09:22:00 -
[27]
the sheer amount of people posting sell orders and auctions these days make it impossible to advertise anything without bumping your ad every now and then .
auctions , the big spenders like to jump into the game towards the end of the auction , by that time the auction thread is burried below half a dozen pages and cant be found without spending precious playing time looking for it.
ship sellers that have one ad , usually have to jump it up from page 10 every time a price change occurs .
a complete redesign of the forums might help . split the forums into sub categories (WTS: minerals , ships , modules/loot/T2 , Auctions) , code an auction system for ingame use ? (tricky) -------------------------
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Trimp
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Posted - 2005.01.22 09:45:00 -
[28]
With the volume of activity it is a necessary evil. After 2 hours the new item can be on page 4 or 5.
Here are some suggested forum improvements that might reduce the need for bumps : - a decent search function - move completed sells off the active list to an archive (by the way let's keep the details of what was being sold so that we have some market intelligence. Some players are deleting the details when they signal the lot is closed) - split the "Sell Order" topic into smaller market specific sections i.e. real estate; modules; BPOs; implants etc...
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Thist Vong
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Posted - 2005.01.22 11:46:00 -
[29]
I agree that bumping a thread once or twice per day should be allowed, at least in market related forums. I've seen auctions go from page 1 to page 12 in less than an hour...
As someone stated, if we are not allowed to keep our auctions from dropping like that, people will simply stop using the forums for auctions. I for one think that would ba sad turn of events.
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Hast
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Posted - 2005.01.22 12:08:00 -
[30]
Here's my take on Bumping in the market forum.
I see it as advertising, those who actively market their items gets them sold faster and for a better price.
The Sellorders forum is too big imo.
It could use some sharding like the ingame channel...
since its basiclly turned into a spamfest without a equal.
split it up to BPO's and BPC's Ships and modules t2 components and agent rewards Ore contracts etc.
thats my 0.02$
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