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Wrangler
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Posted - 2005.01.22 01:59:00 -
[1]
Recently we saw that bumping was becoming the new big thing on the market forums, when we started to fix the problem there were some protests, but also relief from other players.
In the end, it is whats best for the community, not some rule we wrote that might be better in most forums but not in all. Thats why we have the sticky read before posting threads. These stickys can modify the rules, remove certain rules or add rules. However, if it isn't mentioned in the read before posting then the original forum rules apply.
As it is now, bumping threads isn't allowed. The forums are for the community, not a single person or a smaller group. If people feel that it is necessary to discuss something they will, and if no one is interested the thread will fall down. The problem with bumping is that some threads might be bumped to stay on top despite the fact that the community finds other threads more interesting. This is basically cheating, you make sure your thread is on top instead of another thread that might be more interesting, maybe not to you but to more people.
The same goes in the market forum, if people are interested they will bid or post something similar. If they're not interested, then they won't post and your auction will drop down.
What a lot of people are really suggesting is that we allow the ones with a lot of time to bump up their threads, despite the fact that other threads are more interesting. We're willing to discuss it, even if I admit I haven't heard a good argument for it yet.
So, please post here and let us know if you think bumping is going to be allowed or not. Make sure you post why it should be allowed. Good arguments is better than big numbers in this case. This discussing will be guiding us when we discuss it internally, it will not be deciding if bumping is allowed or not.
Please remember that during the time this is discussed bumping will not be allowed, if it is allowed at a later point it will be announced and added to the read before posting stickys, if the result is that it won't be allowed, the stickys will reflect that as well.
DISCUSS!
[Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators] |
Wrangler
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Posted - 2005.01.22 02:10:00 -
[2]
Addition: If you have any suggestions for alternate ways to handle this issue, please post those as well here.
[Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators] |
Peko
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Posted - 2005.01.22 02:18:00 -
[3]
bumping never really bothered me - but making a new topic each time ur thread is off the 1st page might be a problem next - since all active players want there stuff sold quickly - imho id say bumping should be permitted. 
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Emno
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Posted - 2005.01.22 02:30:00 -
[4]
Bumping lets active orders stay err active
But people can over bump stuff...
A bump a day is reasonable but more then that it just starts getting close to spam. |
Et alii
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Posted - 2005.01.22 02:46:00 -
[5]
Imo bumping on the sell forum is only good (limited amounts ofc) as i only read the first pages to get what is selling atm and a week long auction is easy to miss if it's not bumped as it gets drowned by shorter auctions and plain sell posts.
So im all for one to two bumps a day , more then that is spam imo tho.
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Arkive
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Posted - 2005.01.22 02:54:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Arkive on 22/01/2005 02:56:45
I had recently made a post on the Sell forum about bumping that was removed, which probably prompted a portion of this. I think it's great that the forum admins are taking this opportunity to listen to what folks think is for the good of the community instead of just doing what they want, which would clearly be the easy way out...hats off to ya guys.
Now, the post I made was purely in reference to the Sell forum (but could be applied to the Buy forum, or any future market-related forums). In general, I believe bumping is a bad idea on most forums as Wrangler pointed out; if there is interest, people will talk. However, in the Sell forum, much like any market, visibility rules all. However, all things should exist in moderation. Bumping every hour, or even a couple times a day is excessive, and annoying, and most importantly unfair to the other auctioneers who follow the rules. However, there are consequences to no bumping at all. If an item is never bumped, only the few who initially see it will be aware of it...and if the other bidders are forced out by one high roller that they know will take the item in the end (or they just plain forget about the item they bid on), the item is left to dwindle to the back pages after a day or two. What happens is the item (and many others like it) get no exposure, and as such, are unlikely to reach market value. The logical result is that the seller will choose not to auction the item, and likley place it on Escrow at an enormous price which will slowly fall until someone bites. As someone who buy modules regularly, hunting Escrow is almost as painful as self-dentistry.
I guess in summary, removing bumping altogether from the market forums will cripple them to the point of almost uselessness, as all but the very best-of-the-best items will fail to reach market vaule due to lack of visibility. I believe bumping should be regulated in these forums, not removed. Like the previous poster, I think a daily bump is fair, or whatever the community feels to be the just amount. Many thanks again to the mods for giving this issue some light instead of brushing it under the carpet.
*Edited for grammar and spelling...as usual* 
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Wrangler
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Posted - 2005.01.22 02:54:00 -
[7]
Let me clarify myself, this thread isn't for complaining at anything, it is for discussing (post that caused this post were removed).
[Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators] |
Balki Gruniet
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Posted - 2005.01.22 03:14:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Balki Gruniet on 22/01/2005 03:14:16
It seems to me that the amount of BPOs being sold or auctioned in this topic is quite high i.e. about 50%. It would reduce the thread turnover if you had another topic for "Sell - BPO". Reducing the thread turnover would mean less requirement for bumping.
BG |
Gary Forthy
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Posted - 2005.01.22 03:20:00 -
[9]
Like Peko said, bumping never really bothered me, and I have to admit that I do it sometimes myself, but I don't over do it...I would prefer not to, but atm there is no way of allowing people to "see" your auctions when they drop below page three or so, and the amount of people posting on the sell forum makes that happend very fast.. it doesn't take many hours before your sell post is on page 6..unfortunatly
I tried running 2 identical auctions a while back, one with the occational bump, and one without. The winning bid ended up being alot higher on the one where I bumped once in a while BECAUSE more people would see it.
As you stated yourself in the opening post, if people find it interesting they will post, but you also wrote that bumping was a bad idea for the people that didn't have the oppertunity to stay on the forums all the time to do so, and would give some an advantage..but without some bumps they might never find the itmes they want either since they cannot stay on the forums all the time, and they would be missing out on the items for sale.
As for bumping outside the SELL forum I don't think its a good idea, but to sell your stuff its okay in my opinion if you don't over do it.
Though I would much rather have an ingame "auction" system as I like to roleplay, but its hard to sell your stuff this way. :(
Thats just my view on the matter.. :)
Gary
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Do it once! And make it count! |
Muthsera
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Posted - 2005.01.22 03:28:00 -
[10]
To be honnest.
I think it's a nessisary evil.
To me it seems the only way to keep auctions and sell items current.
And the pase the current sell forum is going at.
You can't really expect it not to happend.
Espesially on long lasting auctions/sales etc.
However.. I don't think it should be overly extensivly used.
And looking down on it will help on the outragus ammounts of bumps.
But that might just be me.
SoonÖ
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J21french
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Posted - 2005.01.22 03:38:00 -
[11]
On a forum where there are new posts every few seconds or minute, your post is pushed off the 1st page very quickly, and thus bumping is necessary. Bumping imo should only be permitted if your auction is over X hours old AND is not on the front page (1st page).
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Jessa
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Posted - 2005.01.22 03:56:00 -
[12]
Its only when people go overboard, bumping the tread every hour. I think anyone that comes here to seriously buy items usually browses until the 5th or so page.
Maybe the new rule could be 'a bump a day keeps the mod away'
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EviL ElecTricIaN
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Posted - 2005.01.22 04:14:00 -
[13]
Edited by: EviL ElecTricIaN on 22/01/2005 04:15:55
simple... make it so the forum displays more topics per page... or is that too easy?
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Vessper
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Posted - 2005.01.22 04:14:00 -
[14]
I personally don't mind the bumping as it keeps active sell orders in the first few pages. The players selling their wares also have to consider themselves, and by not bumping their own thread, they are effectively confining their sell order to a life of obscurity in hundreds of other sell orders. This is not a fault of the forums, just the result of the vast number of people wishing to sell items. Banning the bumping will simply force players to exploit ways around it, maybe by getting alts/friends/corpmates to ask a question about the particular item for sale. If this happens, the forum moderators will have more problems trying to determine which are the genuine questions and which are the bumps.
I think what the forums are missing is a search utility where players can search within certain forum catagories for specific items. If players are able to do this easily, bumping may not be such an issue. Sellers would not have to stay on the forums continually in order to keep their items current.
By all means keep the forums sorted in date/time order, but adding a search feature would allow buyers to find that module without having to wade through 8 pages to find it.
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Kusotarre
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Posted - 2005.01.22 04:24:00 -
[15]
Bumping is good.
Excessive, frequent bumping is bad.
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Gungankllr
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Posted - 2005.01.22 06:25:00 -
[16]
I often like bumping by the seller, as it lets me know that the item is still for sale, and it hasn't made its way to page 42.
I think that the market system has become too robust for a simple "want to sell" forum, it needs to be broken down even further.
www.hadean.org
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polvo zangado
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Posted - 2005.01.22 07:07:00 -
[17]
My view on this is such, Eve is a worldwide game, and things that get put up for auction in one part of the world such as Europe may never get seen by a US crowd, or an Aussie crowd. This is where bumping becomes necessary. I don't like seeing lots of posts bumped but as someone said earlier it is kind of a necessary evil if you are trying to auction something and get a decent price. This also gives interested parties across the globe the chance to see your item.
Of course the arguement can be used that if your item has interest that it will be brought to the top by bidders. However, this is not always true for one of a kind modules and BPO's that Shiva has brought us. There are a lot of things that particular buyers are interested in, and even if it is a small crowd, I feel there voice needs to be heard to an extent. This helps both the buyers and the sellers. If you would like to compare it to Majority rules (High Profile items) Majority rights (Lower Profile Items).
One of the bigger issues I see however is sellers with items such as offices. We have seen over the last couple weeks instead of 1 post being made about a number of offices in a region, there are multiple. This in my opinion is a far worse situation. Maybe if these people were allowed a set number of bumps we wouldn't have this situation.
Basically bumps is the same as balance in the game. Some things are needed but everything needs to be held in check to allow everyone the equal opprotunity on the forums. Also, I think this open discussion of bumping is a great thing, it will help the Eve community give feedback about what they think is fair. After all this is a product and you want to keep your customers happy, good job forum mods on this discussion.
Polvo Zangado
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EMerkki
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Posted - 2005.01.22 07:16:00 -
[18]
Why not just break the sell forum to a few subforums? Like one for ship modules, implants, bp's etc.?
Bumping is here because of s***load of posts and by dividing the forums your auctions would stay on pg1 longer. Also if you go hunting for new guns, you don't want to see 5 pages of bpo auctions?
Ofcourse, implementing a search would be one solution, but I don't think that this skill is available atm.. 
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Lagartija Nick
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Posted - 2005.01.22 07:49:00 -
[19]
Give us a forum that displays more topics per page, and an actual, working search command for the forums and bumping will not be needed as badly as it is for the forums.
As it is, if you don't bump, your history. People are not going to wade through 6 pages of "[CLOSED]AUCTION: STUFF" to find what they want unless they are pretty desperate.
Or, alternatively, you could con the devs into giving us an in-game ebay-esque side market 
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CactusSoul
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Posted - 2005.01.22 07:54:00 -
[20]
I think most posts so far have similar points, and I agree.
Bumping is a necessary evil (partly because of different timezones) and a few bumps per day should/could be allowed but to much bumping quickly turns into spam.
I like the idea with market sub-forums for high-volume stuff like BPO's, however there is an other approach that I really would like to voice and that would benefit the entire forum, not just the marketsection:
- redesign the forums!
Ever since I started playing Eve it has evolved and is a much better game in every aspect - but the forums are the same bascilevel version. A decent searchfunction with possibility to search per forum, limit searches to certain days and ofc keywords would make these pages so much more useful.
This will not solve the bump issue more than to a certain extent, but if I could make a search for posts with the words "auction" and "bpo" that's not older than 7 days then I for one wouldn't see the same need for bumps.
There's a lot of great forumpackages out there (phpBB comes to mind) and I'm sure CCP can negotiate a decent price on whatever they fancy and import old content into a new GUI without taking that much effort away from all the new good stuff we want in-game... 
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Wrangler
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Posted - 2005.01.22 07:59:00 -
[21]
If there was a search on forums we wouldn't even have this discussion. 
As for an in game (or out of game) auction feature, go post in the idea labs.
[Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators] |
CactusSoul
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Posted - 2005.01.22 08:07:00 -
[22]
 Originally by: Wrangler
If there was a search on forums we wouldn't even have this discussion.
Well ... since I consider myself to be a pragmatic I'd say the problem is solved then.
Give us a searchfunction and not only solve this issue but also improve the overall forum-exprience!
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Qore
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Posted - 2005.01.22 08:11:00 -
[23]
Bumping should be allowed for all forums but especially the market forums. People type a funny story, someone replies.... "Hey nice story", so its 3 words... a bump is the same thing. Raises it for those that haven't seen it yet to enjoy it. Half of eve is in Bed while the other half plays you know..
For the forums its even more appropriate... here's a few points off the top of my head.
People that bid will purposely not reply and pray it goes to page 10 so they can claim a low price auction.
Bumping is a way for the seller to guarentee his product will be seen by all potential buyers.
Having a moderator remove bumps does no good because they've already served their purpose when he deletes the post. Kinda self defeating..
People will dodge the rule anyway by posting a time count down or a recap of top bidders, still doing the same thing as a simple bump would. I think we'd prefer not too cover our bumps, its senseless.
Reguardless... Auctions will never reach page 25, and drag on for months... most auctions end in 2-3 days tops. Then the post will disappear. No need to moderate it like you do everyother sections.
Friends sometimes will bump a thread for someone which is nice, and other times players may simply wanna "tag" the post to easily find later on. These things should be allowed. It hurts no one imho.
last point, if a person is excessively bumping his thread, that means he's getting no bids... so he'll either A) eventually get flamed lower his head and let his post die or B) Get no bids cause he's annoying, and if your annoying on the auctions you tend to get ignored. That truly seperates the market forums from other forums, due to the fact that in those, the annoying ones actually get respect for being annoying. =P
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Wrangler
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Posted - 2005.01.22 08:24:00 -
[24]
Originally by: CactusSoul
Originally by: Wrangler
If there was a search on forums we wouldn't even have this discussion.
Well ... since I consider myself to be a pragmatic I'd say the problem is solved then.
Give us a searchfunction and not only solve this issue but also improve the overall forum-exprience!
Yea, I don't make the forums, I moderate them.
[Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators] |
AvanCade
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Posted - 2005.01.22 08:26:00 -
[25]
Bumping in market forum should be allowed for every 6 hours or 12 hours.
New threads in the market section arrise so fast, then you can be on page 3 in 30minutes. Making your thread worthless and left ignored.
However, a zillion bumps withing 12hourse, is really annoying, as it does not add anything to the thread.
My suggestion, allow a bump every 6 hours.
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Cordunius
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Posted - 2005.01.22 08:42:00 -
[26]
Bumping is a nessecity.. unforutanly some people do it to extremes..
i know when i am scannign thru auctiosn and sales and such..and i find a nice item that i cant afford.. but is good.. i will throw in a free bump.. and usualy a comment/compliment
thats a good bump.. if i find my auciton on the second page.. i will bump.. thats a good bump..
if my auciton still on first page.. and i bump.. thats a bad bump..
first page is visiabilty.. visibility gets things sold..
that simple..
dont let a few people ruin it for others.. use a little bit of manners
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FZappa
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Posted - 2005.01.22 09:22:00 -
[27]
the sheer amount of people posting sell orders and auctions
these days make it impossible to advertise anything without
bumping your ad every now and then .
auctions , the big spenders like to jump into the game
towards the end of the auction , by that time the auction
thread is burried below half a dozen pages and cant be
found without spending precious playing time looking for
it.
ship sellers that have one ad , usually have to jump it
up from page 10 every time a price change occurs .
a complete redesign of the forums might help . split
the forums into sub categories (WTS: minerals , ships ,
modules/loot/T2 , Auctions) , code an auction system for
ingame use ? (tricky)
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Trimp
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Posted - 2005.01.22 09:45:00 -
[28]
With the volume of activity it is a necessary evil. After 2 hours the new item can be on page 4 or 5.
Here are some suggested forum improvements that might reduce the need for bumps :
- a decent search function
- move completed sells off the active list to an archive (by the way let's keep the details of what was being sold so that we have some market intelligence. Some players are deleting the details when they signal the lot is closed)
- split the "Sell Order" topic into smaller market specific sections i.e. real estate; modules; BPOs; implants etc...
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Thist Vong
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Posted - 2005.01.22 11:46:00 -
[29]
I agree that bumping a thread once or twice per day should be allowed, at least in market related forums. I've seen auctions go from page 1 to page 12 in less than an hour...
As someone stated, if we are not allowed to keep our auctions from dropping like that, people will simply stop using the forums for auctions. I for one think that would ba sad turn of events.
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Hast
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Posted - 2005.01.22 12:08:00 -
[30]
Here's my take on Bumping in the market forum.
I see it as advertising, those who actively market their items gets them sold faster and for a better price.
The Sellorders forum is too big imo.
It could use some sharding like the ingame channel...
since its basiclly turned into a spamfest without a equal.
split it up to
BPO's and BPC's
Ships and modules
t2 components and agent rewards
Ore contracts etc.
thats my 0.02$
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Shinshi Casoyako
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Posted - 2005.01.22 12:17:00 -
[31]
Something that would really help is a different way of doing the auction all together. Ether remove closed threads (makes searching easier) or do something like this:
www.eve-auctions.com (I think it was)
That would make things even better
Seriously Have I Not Said How I Can Assist Some One You Are Killing Online? |
Jazzatola
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Posted - 2005.01.22 12:22:00 -
[32]
Personally I don't like bumping.
Having said that, I have indulged in a spot of stealth bumping for my auction during the past day. As others have said, using the market forums as an impromptu auction site almost makes bumping a necessity if your post is to reach its audience.
I say ban bumping but introduce a new out of game auction facility. |
Lena Serin
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Posted - 2005.01.22 12:36:00 -
[33]
I'd like more sell forums if bumping isn't allowed. Probably half of the auctions is for commander/officer loot, give it a special forum, and another one as well for ships.
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Larno
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Posted - 2005.01.22 14:06:00 -
[34]
Bumping should be allowed imo on the market forums.
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Kaar
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Posted - 2005.01.22 14:39:00 -
[35]
If Bumping is not allowed, Then i suggest Splitting up the sell forums into categories.
Example an account sell forum, A ship sell forum,A Guns or items...you get the idea.
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Vvari
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Posted - 2005.01.22 15:06:00 -
[36]
How about ingame auctions? people would be able to browse all auctions going on and can buy ingame. think it has been mentioned before buy eve-bay ingame sounds like a good solution. Just as an adition to the escrow and market put in auction options.
auctions could be sorted by name, ending date and by views and interest. mabey even make a search option.
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new sig under construction |
Hellspawn01
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Posted - 2005.01.22 15:39:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Kaar
If Bumping is not allowed, Then i suggest Splitting up the sell forums into categories.
Example an account sell forum, A ship sell forum,A Guns or items...you get the idea.
I 2nd that.
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Eve is not game, it¦s a way of life! |
Woetra
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Posted - 2005.01.22 15:44:00 -
[38]
People will just post comments with an alt, or give other info, maybe even bid on their own threads to bump it.
I would suggest we allow bumpage but promote informational posts rather than the word 'bump'
Sig Thief
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Braaage
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Posted - 2005.01.22 17:28:00 -
[39]
For the selling market forum I would suggest all active auctions are stickied or flagged (something similar to a locked icon) as current until the item(s) have been sold where it is unstickied or unflagged.
The problem with that auction forum is that it doesn't show enough posts per page and active auctions sometimes end up 5-6 pages back which is why u get so much bumping.
By flagging or stickying auctions players can see all the current auctions that are still on the go even if it does go back several pages.
This creates 2 problems though....... one is that a mod will have to watch over it practically all day everyday (which u prolly do anyway) and secondly only mods have the ability to stick or unsticky a thread.
The second option above can be solved by giving the post creator the ability to sticky and unsticky his/her own thread (or flag/unflag). Obviously you might think this is a dangerous thing to do but I don't. If someone takes advantage of this feature you can simply ban them from the forums.
Alternatively just leave it as is and let people bump there own threads.
___________________________________________
http://www.eve-tutor.com
Picture based tutorial site for EVE-Online |
Dian Cecht
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Posted - 2005.01.22 17:28:00 -
[40]
I can neither confirm nor deny the fact that I was warned about bumping....
However, this does highlight the fact that the sell forums are not the correct tool for the job. There are sites that provide this function, but they do not get the same traffic that the Eve site does. Maybe if CCP looked at making some of these sites offical, it might be better than complaining about bumping.
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Xamand
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Posted - 2005.01.22 17:32:00 -
[41]
Firstly, I would agree that a limited amount of bumping is needed on a sales forum as trawling through 10 pages is a time consuming nightmare.
However, I don't believe it is the solution to the problem the sales forum has, and that is that it moves far too fast.
Currently, you have to go back to the 8th page of this forum to find a post more than 24hrs old! If everyone bumps their threads once per day, you are still going to be faced with exactly the same problem, just with a load of extra posts.
And you still have to trawl through pages of items you aren't interested in to find what you are looking for :(
Personally, I think a better solution would be to follow the changes that happened to the in game trade channel, and that was to split it up into different categoris.
Then, if you are looking for a blueprint, you goto the blueprint forum and search through a couple of pages, or for a named module, goto that forum.
With threads falling down the page order slower sellers will be less inclined to bump and buyers will be able to find stuff alot quicker (and in many cases will actually find stuff they would otherwise have missed due to not wanting to search past the first 10 pages)
Xamand
CEO
Cirrius Technologies |
Flammius
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Posted - 2005.01.22 18:03:00 -
[42]
*bump*
Oh, nm sticky already...
One or two bumps a day don't bother me, more than that and it might be a bit annoying. I agree that splitting the sell forum into (at least) one for modules and one for BPs might be a good thing tho (if a search function is to much to ask for).
_________________________
Scientist, manufacturer, trader
Selling
Co-processor II, Tachyon Beam Laser II, Modulated Strip Miner II
Buying
Tech 2 BPOs (check my bio ingame) |
Geofferic Sidharttha
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Posted - 2005.01.22 18:36:00 -
[43]
Wouldn't bumping be moot with a search feature?
IE, the bumps are to make sure people know about the auction or sale, but if people had the ability to search all the sales/auctions for what they were looking for, wouldn't the need to be 'seen' be much lower?
For this to work, completed sales and auctions would need to be swept up regularly.
- -
No pleasure, no rapture, no exquisite sin greater than central air. - Azrael, Dogma |
Shadar Ishaan
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Posted - 2005.01.22 18:56:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Shadar Ishaan on 22/01/2005 18:57:00
Here's the problem:
You have a forum software that doesn't allow searching, that doesn't allow you to modify threads per page, that doesn't (so far as I know) let you view only new posts since your last visit. Most other forums have these features.
I asked a simple question (which of course, was deleted) in the sell forum: How are we supposed to sell anything when there is such a level of activity in that forum that your thread can literally be on the 7th or 8th page in a matter of 4 or 5 hours? Not many are going to dig through that many pages. The only other option is to start a new thread periodically to try to hawk your product, and then that can create an even bigger problem.
Primarily, it can be viewed as spamming. You'll be told to keep it to 1 thread (which of course is by this time 20 pages back and you'll never be able to bump it without reprimand).
Secondly, if people actually do find your other threads, it could be confusing. Do you have 3 shield boosters for sale, or 3 threads about the same booster? How do you reconcile if people start bidding in seperate threads for the same thing?
Bumping in a sales forum/buy forum is not a crime. It's not even a hazard to the 'community'. People are only going to bump their thread until their item is sold or the auction is complete, or they give up.
The thing about this that is most disturbing is simply this: You guys are taking an issue of bumping threads overly seriously. It's a game. You guys are the mods, make a judgement call. There is a difference between reasonable bumping and overbumping. This issue is not going to be black and white, right or wrong.
You've been given the responsibility to manage the threads, use your judgement wisely and this won't be an issue.
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Item Trading Post
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theos phobou
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Posted - 2005.01.22 19:03:00 -
[45]
imo, bumps are a necessary evil in sell forums. excessive bumping can be bad. possible solutions:
A) add more sell forums by topic.
B) show more posts per page.
C) add a search feature.
D) add an auction system (who cares if its for the igb or not - the igb is not designed for that.)
i would like to suggest one more:
E) add a post expiration.
what i mean is: any post in sell forum will 'disappear' in N days. that way, there will only ever be a few pages worth of posts... and you don't have to go to page 12 to find an active sell order hidden among rubbish. something along this line would be helpful but you might have to work at it to make it perfect, e.g. perhaps allow replying to a particular post for up to 5 days, but it won't disappear until the 7th day. this will also put an end to the uber-long-never-ending-mega-bpc-14-page-long posts, and it will discourage auctions that last for 20 days.
theos phobou
ceo, dark templars
http://www.thereverend.org/eve/
(yeah i know)
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theos phobou
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Posted - 2005.01.22 19:07:00 -
[46]
perhaps a combination of A B and E above would be easy to implement and sufficient to enforce a no-bumping rule.
theos phobou
ceo, dark templars
http://www.thereverend.org/eve/
(yeah i know)
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SweatySack
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Posted - 2005.01.22 20:18:00 -
[47]
I think for an auction lasting a few days that bumping of once per 24 hours is fine. After I got hit for excessive bumping my auction has pretty much stayed on page 8 or 9.
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DB Preacher
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Posted - 2005.01.22 20:52:00 -
[48]
Bumping is essential and the way auctions go, i don't think there is a problem at all.
I bet those complaining are those who want to try and pick up goods on the cheap.
dbp
Current RKK Ranking: (CAL4) Soldier
Drop by and say hi in Reikoku Forums.
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w0rmy
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Posted - 2005.01.22 21:40:00 -
[49]
Bumping to Keep an active thread active, all good.
Bumping dead threads, or for the sake of bumping, all bad.
Recruitment threads, auction threads, stuff like that, needs to be bumped, as long as its say, once a day and not every five minutes.
Otherwise, their only option to keep a topic active and current, is to start a new identical one every day
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2005.01.22 21:53:00 -
[50]
The Main Problem of Bumping is caused by there not being enough Catagories under auctions
If there were more catagories E.g. Shield Mods , Missile Mods , Guns , Bpo's/Bpc's Etc.
then peoples posts would not drop so fast and therefore would not require bumping , plus buyers/bidders would not have to trawl through pages of offers there not interested in .
As far as bumps go in the current situation, maybe a daily bump should be allowed as a kind of readvertising of ones wares, more than that is just spammage really
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Shadar Ishaan
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Posted - 2005.01.22 23:00:00 -
[51]
If everyone bumps daily, the threads will only reorganize themselves somewhat, but someone will still be 5 pages back.
Splitting into subforums would be nice, but I doubt this software supports it.
---------------
Item Trading Post
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Mal Adicta
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Posted - 2005.01.23 01:21:00 -
[52]
Without the occasional bump of some form or another, it will be very hard to auction anything.
Splitting the forum into
Ships
Blueprints
Modules (maybe into Armoury, Propulsion, Defence & Misc)
Offices & labs
Implants & Tags (that seems to be the new flavour of auctions)
General Sales
Would help a lot, but it will still need a bump once maybe twice a day.
(just my tupence worth)
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Uuve Savisaalo
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Posted - 2005.01.23 04:48:00 -
[53]
This was going to come up at one time or another, and as a frequent user -- both in the selling and the buying department -- of these forums as well as ebay and similar auction sites over the years (no, not for eve-related things, but e-commerce in general) I decided to contribute.
In general, the 'sell orders' forum has become the highest strata of eve economy. This is where the bulk of your 50million+ modules are sold. Perhaps this was not the original intention of the forum administration, but the forum is now of great economic importance.
Lets get some things out of the way first -- the sellers will always campaign for bumping because having your auction on top drives your sales up. In general you can tell apart the real gems by the interest they generate and they're all on the first page.
The buyers will always be against this, because auctions are also something you can make astounding profit upon mis-listed, under-listed, over-looked items.
Personally, I believe that bumping should be either outright forbidden or discouraged because under-selling is a part of auctioning. The advantage of selling here consists of not setting a defined price and some auctions for individual modules going over a billion. The downside, of course, is that you may undersell. When the order of naturally-generated interest showing up on the first page of the auctions is broken by a bunch of people who are sitting there and 'bumping' their own things up.
My advice -- t20. appropriate some web auction script into these things. Set some default rules like bid shelling (character who bid up their own items with alts to drive sales) etc.. etc..
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StarSupport
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Posted - 2005.01.23 06:40:00 -
[54]
Warning: RADICAL suggestion....
 Divide into 3 different Auction Forums: 1 day, 3 day, 1 week, plus a pure SELL forum.
1 day auction: Free usage, NO bump.
3 day auction: Costs 250.000 isk. 1 bump/day (date check)
7 day auction: Costs.... 10.000.000 isk. 1 bump/day (date check)
IMO there's too many of those auctions lasting one week or so. Actually - there's too many auctions of any kind
There IS stuff that is hard to put a price on - true - but... When the last 10 sales of xxxx module went for 35-40 mill isk, its not too hard to put an sell order for it, and at same time make an open escrow for it.
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KingsGambit
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Posted - 2005.01.23 08:55:00 -
[55]
Bumping is fine if it is within reason and not excessive. As long as a thread is relevant (in the case of the market forums, an active buy/sell order) then an infrequent bump is not inappropriate. That would require some judgement from the part of the moderators, which however can vary between reasonable to unreasonable.
I say, make a seperate forum for all those never-ending auctions, so that it is easier to see what's for sale and ignore the rest, and let people bump in that forum to their hearts content...the only good thing about the endless auctions, is that they eventually end, and don't last too long, so thus are only valid for a short time in which bumping would be acceptable.
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BYOC Crow Interceptor Deals |
MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2005.01.23 12:09:00 -
[56]
Wrangler:
Excuse me if I sound like a jerk but I need to play "papa mod" right now There are two reasonable ways for you to handle this:
1)
Slap t20 with the largest trout you can find  If he would add some code that allows people to define how many threads they want to see on each forum page, bumping wouldn't be necessary in the first place. You would just be able to set the forum to display some 50 or 60 threads per page, which would eliminate the problem of threads landing on page 2 the instant they've been posted.
There are so many people posting to this forum that it usually doesn't take more than an hour or so before a new thread goes to page 2... and this is *not* what you want when you're trying to sell stuff. Hence the bumping.
2)
Allow bumping on a reasonable level. A bump per day in an auction that lasts a day or two harms nobody and it keeps people from re-auctioning/re-posting stuff.
Going by the default rules would suck in market sell/buy forums. There's no search feature either... and you know that people rarely look at page 2 and following unless they need something really bad. Consequently forbidding bumping in here would basically make this forum a waste of time for anyone trying to effectively sell/auction items.
Mai's Idealog |
Peko
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Posted - 2005.01.23 15:20:00 -
[57]
i duno where the forums moderators got the idea of stopping bumps from but its certainly not from the ppl thats posted on this thread -
not to be nasty or disrespectful - i mean that to - but is this just to keep u forum guys occupied from bordom? ur guna havta go through alot of threads to stop bumping and is it really worth it?
from ur thread it doesnt look that way. think a guy that posted ealier had the right idea - different catagories for the selling thread's - and perhaps some features adopted from other forum pages.
No disrespect intended.
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Dianabolic
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Posted - 2005.01.23 16:41:00 -
[58]
Sorry if this has already been covered:
Wrangler - I agree that bumping is a problem. However, unless you provide the community with a SEARCH function you are essentially asking each and every one of us to read each and every thread to filter out what we want to buy.
We've been asking for it for nearly 2 years now, using google doesn't cut the most recent threads, please please please implement one asap.
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Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2005.01.23 18:04:00 -
[59]
I heard somewhere that you could bump your thread by posting and deleting your post, the bump is still there you just keep it neat and tidy and don't clutter the sales list.
Forcing people to post extensive lists every day takes them away from the actual gaming.
Cut the red tape and allow say 5 bumps a day, this should be traceable I'm sure, excess bumping and your market privys are void for a week.
Convert Stations
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CactusSoul
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Posted - 2005.01.23 18:18:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Wrangler
Yea, I don't make the forums, I moderate them.
Ofc you do, you're a moderator. And I'd say you do it well too, since you caught up on this issue.
But with an apparent risk for being rude - you asked for our take on it, and a properly designed forum wouldn't have this issue.
So kick the problem upwards to your superiors and explain that this is what must be done. Problem solved.
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mahhy
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Posted - 2005.01.23 19:21:00 -
[61]
No market forums at all. Make an "Ebay" site for Eve. Make it usable in game or out. Give it a search. Hook it into the Eve DB so we don't have to enter all the item information ourselves etc. Heck your auctions/sell orders/buy orders on this site could show up in your wallet just like in game ones.
Then close the buy/sell/trade forums. Market discussions are fine, but forums don't seem to work well for actually buying/selling.
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RollinDutchMasters
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Posted - 2005.01.23 19:26:00 -
[62]
Originally by: mahhy
No market forums at all. Make an "Ebay" site for Eve. Make it usable in game or out. Give it a search. Hook it into the Eve DB so we don't have to enter all the item information ourselves etc. Heck your auctions/sell orders/buy orders on this site could show up in your wallet just like in game ones.
Then close the buy/sell/trade forums. Market discussions are fine, but forums don't seem to work well for actually buying/selling.
This would kick ass. Give the EVE website something useful, besides forums with lack the functionality of every other forum in existance.
Originally by: Sochin
CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
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boldielocks
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Posted - 2005.01.23 21:52:00 -
[63]
Edited by: boldielocks on 23/01/2005 21:57:54
i Think It's a good idea to bump active threads as it keeps from haveing to wade thro Xamount of pages
now doing a whole new forum program for ccp would be costly so i think if the mods let 1 bump per day go then thats fine
BOLDIE
P.S maybe we should put it to a fourm vote?
let the people decide?
There's no such thing as madness,
just diffrent degrees of normality. |
Vegeta
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Posted - 2005.01.24 03:10:00 -
[64]
Every other game supports bumping for its trade forums, how else are auctioneers going to get their messages accross?
2005.04.25 16:40:42 combat Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II perfectly strikes LawrenceNewton [WARAG], wrecking for 2706.9 damage.
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Kalki Nibiru
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Posted - 2005.01.24 06:25:00 -
[65]
In many sale forums that I visit once in a while, they have a system where you can only bump your thread once in a 24 hour period. I think that would be a good idea if it could be implemented. That way people can still try to sell their wares, but cannt be troublesome by bumping their thread every few hours.
Taken from the May 29th 2003 Devchat at EveGate
.
<Muaddid> Q: When will sentry gun and station and similar construction pods be introduced on the market?
<Hellmar> we have various player owned entities already implemented. Sentry guns, power/shield generators, field repair mini-stations, mobile refineries. We are still working out the last tidbits of how they can be over taken, what is the penalty of having a sentry gun kill a n00b etc. and we have been a bit busy with plugging the holes that people have found.I would say that you'd start to see these items on the market in about 2-3 weeks, very expensive to begin with |
Jonask'ri
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Posted - 2005.01.24 11:39:00 -
[66]
I support the breakup into sub-forums.
BPO Market
Loot Item Market
Etc
Or break it into categories for expected/starting price range.
-----
Redwolf > No Solar System can be found with 'c_ck' in the beginning its name.
Jonask'ri > Signature time "Redwolf - In Search of C_ck" |
Val Duane
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Posted - 2005.01.24 14:23:00 -
[67]
I think a 3 step approach would make everyone happy.
1. Split the market forum up much like the trade channel was split up in game. BPO's, real-Estate, Ships, Modules etc. I mean how hard can it be to make a few more boards?
2. Still allow once a day bumping, especially int he most active forums (Im guessing BPOS and Modules will be most active)
3. Implement a search function. While this solution would drastically help a buyer walking into the market forum with something specific in mind. Some people are just opertunists and go into the market forum with no clear cut idea what they want and browse. Alternately you may go in looking for 1 thing and stumble across something completely different that you have wanted for months. Searching eliminates that and will cause sellers to get less bids.
By providing all these everyone would stay happy.
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Johnathan Roark
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Posted - 2005.01.25 04:35:00 -
[68]
There is only one reason that people need to bump in the market forums and that is advertising. Basically, traders have a desire to advertise there products and services. Personally i would like to see something replace the market forums, maybe an auction site for those wanting to sell there goods. I would say advertizing is a part of any market. Seeing more places for us to advertize our products and services would also be an improvement.
Right now, there is very little reason to advertize unless you have something rather unique such as a tech II bpo or a rare mod. This is something I would like to see changed so there might be a benifit to buying from one corporation or player than another other than price. Maybe say my corporation's apocolypses might have slightly more cap than anothers while another corp might have a little more armorr.
-------------------------------------
Quantum Industries
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Velios
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Posted - 2005.01.25 10:42:00 -
[69]
I have a thread that has been active for nearly a year. (It's the M.Corp BPC Package thread) M.Corps business has become so dependant on this thread that when I bump it to the top (and then delete the bump) I am almost guaranteed a sale. The thread has had so much time invested by in it myself and our customers that it has grown very large and serves now as more of a testimonial about the service we offer. I often ask customers to write a little about their experience with us (something they do if they are happy with what they got)
If the ability for me to self bump the thread (and then delete the superfluous bump) was lost then a major part of M.Corps business would fade away with the thread. M.Corps business is all about personal contact with the eve public and building relations (most new m.corp members join because they were attracted by the high profile of our bpc thread and business.
On average I bump the thread once a day, maybe 2-3 times if I'm on a very hard sales push.
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mahhy
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Posted - 2005.01.25 12:58:00 -
[70]
Originally by: mahhy
No market forums at all. Make an "Ebay" site for Eve. Make it usable in game or out. Give it a search. Hook it into the Eve DB so we don't have to enter all the item information ourselves etc. Heck your auctions/sell orders/buy orders on this site could show up in your wallet just like in game ones.
Then close the buy/sell/trade forums. Market discussions are fine, but forums don't seem to work well for actually buying/selling.
Oh and add in-game marketing using the billboards and in-station "TV" 
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AKAAK
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Posted - 2005.01.25 13:33:00 -
[71]
Originally by: mahhy
No market forums at all. Make an "Ebay" site for Eve. Make it usable in game or out. Give it a search. Hook it into the Eve DB so we don't have to enter all the item information ourselves etc. Heck your auctions/sell orders/buy orders on this site could show up in your wallet just like in game ones.
Then close the buy/sell/trade forums. Market discussions are fine, but forums don't seem to work well for actually buying/selling.
Good idea, forget the ingame website tho and make this complete ingame functionality with an external website linked to it. There are loads of auctions going on so why not finally make this an in game feature?
Originally by: mahhy
Oh and add in-game marketing using the billboards and in-station "TV"
Kick ass idea! could be used for other things as well like player created events. It would also help get rid of all those ad cans we **still** see floating round the gates as people could finally place the ad somewhere official
Bumping doesn't really bother me as long as it isn't excessive, but some of the ideas mentioned here have been good. I put up a post on the buying forum yesterday and already it's off the front page because there are just so many new posts, so don't ban bumping all togeather unless there is another way of making posting on such fourms worth while.
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Laendra
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Posted - 2005.01.25 21:04:00 -
[72]
Simple way to avoid bumping for auctions...an ingame auction system sort of like Escrow, but on steroids.
You put your item, a singular type item (may be more than one, mind you), give it a starting bid price, a minumum increment, a reserve price (hidden or not), an ending time, and a sniper timelimit, and even a short description that can be included when a player views the auction item (this is not used for the auction description, only additional info)...the actual item's name is used in the auction description.
That item is then put into escrow, with the ingame name, that prevents scams, as the auction description, at the station it resides in (all location info is listed in the auction), and then listed on the auction site. Characters may view the auctioned item from anywhere in EVE (including the item's info), and place bids on said item. When the auction is over (after any applicable sniper timelimit), and if the reserve is met, the winning bidder must pay for the item (from the auction site) within 72 hours, or the item (as well as any fees paid) is returned to the player that auctioned the item, the offending bidder takes a security hit, is also fined by CONCORD (based on the amount of the bid) and is unable to bid on any auctions until that fine is paid. If the bidder pays the bid amount on time, the item is deposited in their hangar in the system that the item was when it was placed for auction.
Some additional info...the auction site should be sortable (Ascending and Descending) by item name, and date/time auction ends. Bids should be able to be placed such that you can tell it the maximum you are willing to bid, and the system will automatically bid you up to that amount if your initial bid is outbid by someone. So, for instance, if the starting bid on an item was 20m with 1m minimum increment, but I felt that my maximum bid for that item was 50m, my bid would include the initial bid (of 20m), and the maximum bid (of 50m). If Player XYZ put in a bid of 21m with a maximum bid of 40m, my bid would automatically move to 41m until some other player bid more. This would allow people to place bids on items and not have to be online (for any reason) to complete the auction process. They would receive an Evemail stating that their current bid has changed, or if they were outbid, or if they won the auction, and a bill would be sent to their wallet with an option to pay to obtain the item.
Whew...
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Pentara
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Posted - 2005.01.25 23:03:00 -
[73]
In most forums it doesn't matter anyway. Maybe a limit on how many times you could bump. But in the market forums it is necessary.
Perhaps if there was a way to view more topics (like 100, 200 or 400 even) per page life would become easier. Then you wouldn't find your 4 hour post on page 6 anymore.
I don't have any other ideas, so in summary a) Allow bumping with a limit b) allow the option to see more topics (A lot more topics for market) per page
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Tahreem
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Posted - 2005.01.26 05:23:00 -
[74]
Originally by: mahhy
No market forums at all. Make an "Ebay" site for Eve. Make it usable in game or out. Give it a search. Hook it into the Eve DB so we don't have to enter all the item information ourselves etc. Heck your auctions/sell orders/buy orders on this site could show up in your wallet just like in game ones.
Then close the buy/sell/trade forums. Market discussions are fine, but forums don't seem to work well for actually buying/selling.
Fully agreed here
-------
Co-ceo |
Neon Genesis
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Posted - 2005.01.26 07:07:00 -
[75]
Well, imo if bumping is not allowed it becomes pointless to bother with the sell order forums unless u are selling vepas xl's and the like, Just because it falls to the 5th page in 20 minutes dosnt mean its not interesting, it means thers alot of traffic. When u bump it u find u get bids even tho u hav been severely relegated by more high profile threads.
__
There, i just contributed nothing to your thread
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LtCol RTButts
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Posted - 2005.01.26 15:18:00 -
[76]
bumps re a waste of db space.
the first page is only important for lazy people and it is no excuse to bump several times to be placed on the first page. till now mainly single postings get bumped, but it would be very easy to split this single postings with offered stuff and keep them teared over 30 postings with each seperate stuff. no big deal to bump them and control the first page complete. every browser has an add function to track interesting links/postings, so, why is it nessessary to bump ? for the people who only read the first page ? no, it is their problem when the kicking offers re on page 4 or 5.
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Wrangler
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Posted - 2005.01.26 19:50:00 -
[77]
Well, we can all agree that forums aren't the best place for selling and buying items, but at the moment thats what we have. On the other hand there was eve-marketplace, but apparently there wasn't enough interest for it, maybe I'm wrong though.
Anyways, after reading this, we've discussed it a bit, and here's what we will probably do:
1. Only the thread starter character can bump.
2. The bump can't be by simply posting "bump", it has to have some content. "Still for sale" or some countdown like "1 day left" is good enough.
3. Only one bump per day.
Number 3 means that you can bump once 22/01/05, once 23/01/05, once 24/01/05 etc. So you can bump once before midnight and once close after if you wish, no rule saying it has to be 24 hrs between.
I wanted to post it a bit before we go ahead and implement those rules. So, what do y'all think?
[Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators] |
roos
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Posted - 2005.01.26 20:06:00 -
[78]
Not a bad idea, what is to be done about the people who post then delete their post just so they can move it to the top?
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Wrangler
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Posted - 2005.01.26 20:20:00 -
[79]
Originally by: roos
Not a bad idea, what is to be done about the people who post then delete their post just so they can move it to the top?
A warning for bumping.
[Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators] |
DB Preacher
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Posted - 2005.01.27 10:53:00 -
[80]
That looks fair enough to me although you might wanna gonna easy at the start of implementation with the bans.
cheers
dbp
Current RKK Ranking: (CAL4) Soldier
Drop by and say hi in Reikoku Forums.
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Dianabolic
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Posted - 2005.01.27 11:02:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Wrangler
Well, we can all agree that forums aren't the best place for selling and buying items, but at the moment thats what we have. On the other hand there was eve-marketplace, but apparently there wasn't enough interest for it, maybe I'm wrong though.
Anyways, after reading this, we've discussed it a bit, and here's what we will probably do:
1. Only the thread starter character can bump.
2. The bump can't be by simply posting "bump", it has to have some content. "Still for sale" or some countdown like "1 day left" is good enough.
3. Only one bump per day.
Number 3 means that you can bump once 22/01/05, once 23/01/05, once 24/01/05 etc. So you can bump once before midnight and once close after if you wish, no rule saying it has to be 24 hrs between.
I wanted to post it a bit before we go ahead and implement those rules. So, what do y'all think?
Are there ANY plans to introduce a search function, wrangler? It is a fundamental forum feature that these forii have gone without for far too long.
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Ki Shodan
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Posted - 2005.01.27 13:32:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Wrangler
Well, we can all agree that forums aren't the best place for selling and buying items, but at the moment thats what we have. On the other hand there was eve-marketplace, but apparently there wasn't enough interest for it, maybe I'm wrong though.
afaik, eve-marketplace was close due to traffic.
i think hosting forums sigs with current sales of a char, for 2 high traffic forums like on eve-online and eve-i have eaten a lot off traffic and cpu power. as free community service eve-marketplace had not the financial background to do so and therefore had to cease its service.
back to topic:
the initial statements of wrangler are irrelevant, since the market-forums are no discussion forums.
i hardly ever go beyond page 1 in the market forums. the forums can not be searched, and i am not going to search them manually, even if i in need of certain items. for that i use other websites, that have a search function available.
however the market forums have a certain use for me, since it is the first place people place their orders, but it is only to a certain degree.
the sell forum is currently quite useless to me, since there are only auctions for tech II bpo or some faction loot at the first page, which i am not interested in.
however things that i am interested in do not get bumped enough.
if a post is bumped to much or unjustified it has a negative impacetd on the author, since people remember the name of the ones that annoyed them. :-)
(and yes, i have a blacklist of forum-moderators! )
if you regulate bumping, how will you enforce your rules? how will you tell, the question a "customer" asks about skill requirements, screenshots or delivery isn't a secret bump of a friend?
you have so few things to "moderate", that you can browse thru all topics and see who is bumping who?
if you really want to make the forums useable for the community, please stop regulating every tiny bit, just because you need something to do.
do not fix something that is not broken! |
Ricco Lonestar
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Posted - 2005.02.01 21:47:00 -
[83]
So.... bumpy or no bumpy if i start auction this weekend? Just dont wanna get spanked by ebil ISD
___________________________________________
To survive in shark infested waters u dont need to swim faster then the sharks.... u only need to swim faster then the other ppl in there with u. |
Wrangler
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Posted - 2005.02.05 11:20:00 -
[84]
New bumping rules.
[Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators] |
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