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Balancing Kiting With Brawling In One Step

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Suddenly Forums ForumKings Republic University Minmatar Republic 223	Posted - 2012.08.17 04:52:00 - [1] - Quote Before the nano nerf webs had a -90% velocity penalty, now it is only -60%. Web ranges were the same, but once you were webbed you were webbed hard. This meant that if a brawler could get a web on its target, the target wasn't going anywhere. Let's consider some basic examples. NOTE: Since the web ranges will not be changed, if you can actually kite you won't be affected. It will however balance brawling with the l33t k1dd33s who failkite in expensive stuff they bought with a PLEX. 1. The 100mn Tengu Normal Speed: 2500m/s Modern Web Applied: 1000m/s Ancient Web Applied: 250m/s 2. The Really Determined 100mn Tengu Normal Speed: 3600m/s Modern Web Applied: 1440 Ancient Web Applied: 360m/s 3. The F1 Army Drake Normal Speed: 1000m/s Modern Web Applied: 400m/s Ancient Web Applied: 100m/s So CCP, just change the web velocity modifiers as follows. T1 Web -> 80% T2 Web -> 90% And brawling and kiting are balanced.
Andski GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 4374	Posted - 2012.08.17 04:57:00 - [2] - Quote or fly a daredevil "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012
rodyas Tie Fighters Inc 638	Posted - 2012.08.17 05:04:00 - [3] - Quote tengu took meh jerb I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me.
Torvin Yulus State War Academy Caldari State 39	Posted - 2012.08.17 06:35:00 - [4] - Quote give vindy a web range bonus im a pubby and im proud
Danny John-Peter The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance 135	Posted - 2012.08.17 07:59:00 - [5] - Quote Well, with the Upcoming change to the Various Recon classes this should not be as big an issue, a Minmatar Recon can currently only realistically fit 2 Webs (If one would like to actually have a tank ofc) with the increase in Mid/Low numbers this should hopefully be increased to at least 3, which is the equivalent of an old 90. Alternatively, Vigilant + Fed Web + Loki Links :D I would also like to point out that this would not in any way "balance" kiting, as the whole point of kiting is you aren't in web range, obviously. Also, whats wrong with kiting?
Takeshi Yamato Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 372	Posted - 2012.08.17 08:05:00 - [6] - Quote Danny John-Peter wrote: Also, whats wrong with kiting? Why brawl if you can kite? Kiting is just the superior tactic in general. Kiting takes most of the pie currently. Some people (including me) would prefer if the pie was a little bit more evenly split between brawling and kiting. That said the OP is terrible as it would actually buff kiting in web range to the extreme. An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846
Danny John-Peter The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance 135	Posted - 2012.08.17 08:24:00 - [7] - Quote Takeshi Yamato wrote: Danny John-Peter wrote: Also, whats wrong with kiting? Why brawl if you can kite? Kiting is just the superior tactic in general. Kiting takes most of the pie currently. Some people (including me) would prefer if the pie was a little bit more evenly split between brawling and kiting. That said the OP is terrible as it would actually buff kiting in web range to the extreme. Thats only because kiting means you can actually disengage when the inevitable WTFBBQ50DRAKES turns up. Par Example
Takeshi Yamato Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 373	Posted - 2012.08.17 08:30:00 - [8] - Quote Danny John-Peter wrote: Thats only because kiting means you can actually disengage when the inevitable WTFBBQ50DRAKES turns up. Par Example Right. There needs to be more risk associated with kiting, and more incentives to brawl. An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846
Ottersmacker Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED 256	Posted - 2012.08.17 09:45:00 - [9] - Quote A way for stronger (not saying 90% but maybe) webs to be re-implemented would be to make them the propulsion type specific. Think in ECM terms (f--- ECM btw) - the paradigm of multipsec vs racial. Something like (for the lack of a better term) fusion propulsion inhibitor i.e "amarr web" would make ships with fusion propulsion (amarr) really really really slow but would be terrible against the other three races. The Order of the Falcon or Hin +¡slenska f+ílkaor+¦a is a national Order of Iceland
Takeshi Yamato Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 374	Posted - 2012.08.17 09:55:00 - [10] - Quote Kiting being overly dominant is a primarily a phenomenon of cruiser and battlecruiser hulls. Frigates can kite too, but it's more easily countered at the frigate level. A good amount of frigates are successful in brawling fits. Why is this so? 10 km webs don't have the range to reach kiting cruisers & battlecruisers who can comfortably deal deadly damage from 20km and higher. So how do we implement 20 km webs for cruisers and battlecruisers without destroy the frigate class? That's the question. An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846
Mors Sanctitatis Death of Virtue 856	Posted - 2012.08.17 10:05:00 - [11] - Quote Takeshi Yamato wrote: Kiting being overly dominant is a primarily a phenomenon of cruiser and battlecruiser hulls. Frigates can kite too, but it's more easily countered at the frigate level. A good amount of frigates are successful in brawling fits. Why is this so? 10 km webs don't have the range to reach kiting cruisers & battlecruisers who can comfortably deal deadly damage from 20km and higher. So how do we implement 20 km webs for cruisers and battlecruisers without destroy the frigate class? That's the question. Give the Cruiser sized 20km webs a 20-50 power grid fitting requirement. That should prevent most frigs from using them. Intelligence shouldn't be free. -á Mining, reloaded. -á-áADDICTED.
Roime Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance 1062	Posted - 2012.08.17 10:49:00 - [12] - Quote Extend drone damage bonus to EWAR and other drone effects, like light webber drones. Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman
Lin-Young Borovskova Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 659	Posted - 2012.08.17 10:55:00 - [13] - Quote Suddenly Forums ForumKings wrote: Before the nano nerf webs had a -90% velocity penalty, now it is only -60%. Web ranges were the same, but once you were webbed you were webbed hard. This meant that if a brawler could get a web on its target, the target wasn't going anywhere. Let's consider some basic examples. NOTE: Since the web ranges will not be changed, if you can actually kite you won't be affected. It will however balance brawling with the l33t k1dd33s who failkite in expensive stuff they bought with a PLEX. 1. The 100mn Tengu Normal Speed: 2500m/s Modern Web Applied: 1000m/s Ancient Web Applied: 250m/s 2. The Really Determined 100mn Tengu Normal Speed: 3600m/s Modern Web Applied: 1440 Ancient Web Applied: 360m/s 3. The F1 Army Drake Normal Speed: 1000m/s Modern Web Applied: 400m/s Ancient Web Applied: 100m/s So CCP, just change the web velocity modifiers as follows. T1 Web -> 80% T2 Web -> 90% And brawling and kiting are balanced. I could disagree on some of your numbers but in the end I don't think 90% webs are actually the best answer because they might be a little powerful on non bonused hulls, instead of increasing this strength why not just keep actual strenght but increase range to a full optimal of 24km instead (for T2 modules of course)? Edit: stealth Tengu nerf thread but what about Loki? -you know the Tengu natural predator permanent MWD+LSB fit? brb
Takeshi Yamato Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 374	Posted - 2012.08.17 11:22:00 - [14] - Quote I would propose the addition of: 1) The "Stasis Projector" aka the 20km 60% web meant for cruisers. Its PG requirements should be high enough to make it very difficult to impossible to fit it on frigates. 2) A stat called "propulsion signature size" (PSS) on ships. Frigates would have a PSS of around 10. Destroyers would have a PSS of around 20. Cruisers would have a PSS of around 50. Battlecruisers would have a PSS of around 75. 3) A stat called "propulsion signature resolution" (PSR) on the Stasis Projector which is matched against the PSS to calculate the speed reduction of the Stasis Projector. I'll set this to 75 now. This gives the following results when a Stasis Projector is applied: A frigate would be slowed down by 8%. A destroyer would be slowed down by 16%. A cruiser would be slowed down by 40%. A battlecruiser would be slowed down by 60%. In other words, this is going to make life for kiters a lot more difficult. Speed mods should increase the PSS of the ship as well. An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846
Sarah Schneider PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore 1434	Posted - 2012.08.17 11:33:00 - [15] - Quote Ooh... Huginn buff, me likey :) "I think weGÇÖre just getting closer and closer to a place where the people we lose are people that itGÇÖs okay to lose." -Kristoffer Touborg, Eve lead designer
School Nickname Worldmonkey GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 36	Posted - 2012.08.17 11:40:00 - [16] - Quote Bring more Huginns and a few Lachesis to your fight. Don't even bother trying to tackle a Talos with your frigs (I'm guessing that this is what you're struggling with).
smokess Selective Hearing Nearly Feared 27	Posted - 2012.08.17 11:54:00 - [17] - Quote Torvin Yulus wrote: give vindy a web range bonus Erm, no I like my web factor bonus thank you very much!
War Kitten Panda McLegion 1063	Posted - 2012.08.17 12:00:00 - [18] - Quote Give webs an optimal and falloff. 75% web strength up to optimal of 5k, falloff out to 20k. Or something along those lines... I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all.
Altrue Exploration Frontier inc 38	Posted - 2012.08.17 12:19:00 - [19] - Quote Web is perfectly fine currently imo. It makes tackling frigates usefull while making a true meaning for the web module : you are at range you're affected, you are out you're not. So that people can "break free" from this effect.. like a true net. It makes fights a lot better by giving fair chances to both parties. A good example that I especially like the 100mn tengu with this huge inertia, leaving you some chance to break free from the web if you had enough initial speed, but in the same time, you can't perform a kiting efficiently this way. I laugh when I read that a 100mn tengu can go at 2500 before heat.. In a perfect world where everyone has full snake implants and matarr boosting, perhaps. But where I live, only people purposely distorting numbers can write that speed. Also, it gives a purpose to sniping ships that remains useless in most situations as long as probing mechanisms are not fixed. Death to trees !!! Axe Chop, chop, chop... You may understand what I'm talking about ;)
ChromeStriker The Riot Formation Executive Outcomes 196	Posted - 2012.08.17 13:18:00 - [20] - Quote Take out webs, double speeds, and half all ranges. space is big, ships are fast - Nulla Curas
Aiwha 101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda 480	Posted - 2012.08.17 13:19:00 - [21] - Quote Webbing rigs. Regards, LCpl. Aiwha-á
Jerick Ludhowe Toxic Waste Industries 142	Posted - 2012.08.17 13:21:00 - [22] - Quote just fit asb on matari ships and you can do both (hidden asb are super broken wine)
Ensign X 100	Posted - 2012.08.17 13:44:00 - [23] - Quote Takeshi Yamato wrote: Right. There needs to be more risk associated with kiting, and more incentives to brawl. There is huge risk in kiting; it's called "getting caught". When you've dedicated your setup to kiting, getting webbed/scrammed has the very high potential of ruining your day; as it should. There's more than enough risk there. And why should brawling (aka "Orbit 500") be further incentivized?
Ayn Randy The Littlest Hobos En Garde 17	Posted - 2012.08.17 15:15:00 - [24] - Quote An ammo type that does little to no damage but reduces targets velocity would be cool. Reload times for damage ammo etc would balance it out.
Cadfael Maelgwyn Immortals of New Eden Rebel Alliance of New Eden 162	Posted - 2012.08.17 15:26:00 - [25] - Quote Let's make this a real-world comparison. The Crusades. Frankish European crusaders took their European military philosophy to the Holy Land. Heavy armor, heavy horses, heavy weapons. Let's call these people 'brawlers'. The people who held the Holy Land at the time were desert folk. They had lighter horses, lighter armor, and lighter weapons. Let's call these people 'kiters'. The only reason the Crusaders didn't get their butts kicked instantly is because they fought in situations that were favorable to their combat style - sieges. Eventually, they hired their own 'kiter' mercenaries to balance battles out in the field. Let's end the comparison here, since the eventual demise of the Crusaders had little to do with 'brawling' and 'kiting'. So, in short, kiting is superior in various situations, while brawling shines in fewer situations. That's the way it is, and the way it always will be.
Ensign X 100	Posted - 2012.08.17 17:06:00 - [26] - Quote Haha, what a terrible analogy. Amusing, but terrible nonetheless.
Elvis Fett Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance 30	Posted - 2012.08.17 17:09:00 - [27] - Quote Increasing the range of webs is a terribad idea. That would kill a giant chunk of kiting setups that fight in between point and web range. So what you really want is everyone to fly brawlers? Brawling is fine and a perfectly viable tactic. Part of fighting kiting ships in a brawler is closing the distance, wither it be by warp in, calling in a buddy, or superior manual piloting. Sounds to me like somebody is mad that everybody they see doesn't orbit them at 500 so they can use their short range ammo. Kiting allows people to go up against superior numbers. A brawler fleet will decimate a much larger size kiting fleet if they are able to close the distance between the fleets. Sounds to me like everything is working fine.
Diesel47 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 106	Posted - 2012.08.17 17:14:00 - [28] - Quote Make nanos not suck again.
Andski GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 4378	Posted - 2012.08.17 20:11:00 - [29] - Quote Torvin Yulus wrote: give vindy a web range bonus you can do this already, it's called skirmish bonuses "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012
baltec1 Bat Country 1908	Posted - 2012.08.17 20:17:00 - [30] - Quote Megathrons are the answer.

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