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Making P2s or P3s on a single planet has always been very inefficient

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Chelone Junkyard Gunners	Posted - 2011.01.20 06:31:00 - [61] Originally by: Two Shots Originally by: Chelone OP seems to think time is a free commodity. Fail. Quoted poster seems to misunderstand the use of the word "fail". Unfortunate. Quoted OP denies his own failure. This must in fact be true, proving that his flawed argument was in fact facetious and that he is exposing himself as the PI forum troll he really is. Unfortunate.
Ranja Jeemana	Posted - 2011.01.20 07:02:00 - [62] Originally by: Iodus All you said is true if you were extracting only one resource per planet. Previous posters seem to assume that the only goal of PI is to specialize in the extraction of one resource or the production of one specific end product. That however is not the case and I don't see why I should suffer a system that penalizes me extravagantly for wanting to extract 2 or 3 different resources on the same planet. Before the expansion, the extraction of more than one resource was penalized by the fact that you had to make a compromise in the quality of the deposits you wanted to exploit because you had to position yourself close to all the different resources. Therefore, you couldn't exploit that really rich base metals deposit because there weren't any felsic magma close-by for example. You also lost some MW/tf because of longer links. The advantage however is that there was less hauling involved in the production of a given P2/P3 product because it could be produced on one planet and it also made the production of those goods available to players who spent less SP in PI. Yes, specialization in the production of a single good is more effective, as a matter of fact, it was before the expansion. Now the advantage has just become outrageous and I could easily demonstrate how I lost about 40% production on most of my worlds because of the expansion. I think the change has thrown the PI system out of balance and will force specialization upon everyone. What I'm trying to understand and I would like to see someone answer, is why CCP thought it would be better to implement such a system? Why do they penalize the extraction of multiple resources on one planet so badly? How does this improve the game and my experience playing EVE? Right now I'm really angry as I've spent a lot of time and much hard earned ISK setting up a system of planets that was very efficient, not in the sense that it produced the absolute maximum number of P3 or P4 goods, but in the sense that it achieved exactly the goal I had of producing different goods at a set interval of time that was convenient for me. Now instead of getting a system that makes my life easier and my experience more enjoyable, I get a nightmare. Yes we now have the option of setting our own extraction deadlines which is nice, but now I have to redesign my whole 6 planets (and I feel for those with many alts who had a much greater number of planets), I will probably need to rebuy all my command centers as I will probably need to switch planets or move their locations. Perfectly well-put, I couldn't have said it any better myself. I'd be happy to sacrifice efficiency and high yield in order to just get barely enough parts to supply my 2 small POS towers in hisec with a run out to pickup the P1 and P2 products every week. Now if I want to produce at all for my POS towers, I have to brave going out to low/null every day in my Occator and move P0 and P1 around and pay excessive Launchpad fees to get those products off-world just to take them to a production planet and convert them into finished product where I once again get dinged on Launchpad fees. Not sure if any of you have checked Launchpad fees and figured them into your costs for doing PI, but when you are moving P0/P1 AND also removing the completed P2/P3, the costs add-up really damn fast. It's a sizable hit to margin for those selling remnant materials, and additional cost to making POS fuel. Not to mention a LOT more time out of my day and a requirement to camp space I normally wouldn't be wasting time in.
Kharylien Gallente Masked Rider Project	Posted - 2011.01.20 07:23:00 - [63] Originally by: Ranja Jeemana I'd be happy to sacrifice efficiency and high yield in order to just get barely enough parts to supply my 2 small POS towers in hisec with a run out to pickup the P1 and P2 products every week. Now if I want to produce at all for my POS towers, I have to brave going out to low/null every day in my Occator and move P0 and P1 around and pay excessive Launchpad fees to get those products off-world just to take them to a production planet and convert them into finished product where I once again get dinged on Launchpad fees. Not sure if any of you have checked Launchpad fees and figured them into your costs for doing PI, but when you are moving P0/P1 AND also removing the completed P2/P3, the costs add-up really damn fast. It's a sizable hit to margin for those selling remnant materials, and additional cost to making POS fuel. Not to mention a LOT more time out of my day and a requirement to camp space I normally wouldn't be wasting time in. If you're launching and moving P0, you're doing it wrong. P1 fees aren't that high. And if you want to do it the way you have been before, you STILL CAN. You just need to rotate what resource your ECU is extracting. Why is this apparently so difficult a concept for you people to grasp?
Minamel Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2011.01.20 08:14:00 - [64] Edited by: Minamel on 20/01/2011 08:14:59 Quote: You just need to rotate what resource your ECU is extracting. As statet before this is a good idea but it is not possible in 0.0 due to the high volume of p0. If i would store half of my p0 ammount for later use, a spacepad would be full after about 30 hours. So to rotate extraction you would have to rotate ALL the P1 Fabs too,and i dont like the idea to reroute resources for all p1 Fabs every few days because i have some more than 10.. Of course a rotation and storing of some p0 could be good solution for high sec where the extraction is so low that it maybe do not fill your spacepad that fast. @ Thread Moving P1 would for me would result in hauling of 70.000-90.000m¦ per day and i dont wana do that. Going p0->p2 means less than 20.000m¦ a day (just take the endproduct from every planet once in 10 days. Even if i have 14% (before patch) or 25% (after the patch) less output what i have more is free time. And i have user friendly 3 or 4 day cycles. As alrdy statet with extractionplanets and extraction up to 80.000 Units per hour with 1day cycles a planet now possibly depletes very fast (too fast?) what could cause problems in maintaining p1 production.
Ginga Bishounen	Posted - 2011.01.20 11:43:00 - [65] Originally by: Minamel As statet before this is a good idea but it is not possible in 0.0 due to the high volume of p0. If i would store half of my p0 ammount for later use, a spacepad would be full after about 30 hours. So, either: 1) use silos 2) rotate more frequently than 30 hours or 3) HTFU
Bitchslaping Biatch	Posted - 2011.01.20 11:48:00 - [66] This is plain and simple wrong. If we stop doing pi at all, the fuel shortage will make them come to they senses again. Stop pi for good
Aphrodite Skripalle Galactic Defence Consortium	Posted - 2011.01.20 12:01:00 - [67] Originally by: Ranja Jeemana Originally by: Iodus All you said is true if you were extracting only one resource per planet. Previous posters seem to assume that the only goal of PI is to specialize in the extraction of one resource or the production of one specific end product. That however is not the case and I don't see why I should suffer a system that penalizes me extravagantly for wanting to extract 2 or 3 different resources on the same planet. Before the expansion, the extraction of more than one resource was penalized by the fact that you had to make a compromise in the quality of the deposits you wanted to exploit because you had to position yourself close to all the different resources. Therefore, you couldn't exploit that really rich base metals deposit because there weren't any felsic magma close-by for example. You also lost some MW/tf because of longer links. The advantage however is that there was less hauling involved in the production of a given P2/P3 product because it could be produced on one planet and it also made the production of those goods available to players who spent less SP in PI. Yes, specialization in the production of a single good is more effective, as a matter of fact, it was before the expansion. Now the advantage has just become outrageous and I could easily demonstrate how I lost about 40% production on most of my worlds because of the expansion. I think the change has thrown the PI system out of balance and will force specialization upon everyone. What I'm trying to understand and I would like to see someone answer, is why CCP thought it would be better to implement such a system? Why do they penalize the extraction of multiple resources on one planet so badly? How does this improve the game and my experience playing EVE? Right now I'm really angry as I've spent a lot of time and much hard earned ISK setting up a system of planets that was very efficient, not in the sense that it produced the absolute maximum number of P3 or P4 goods, but in the sense that it achieved exactly the goal I had of producing different goods at a set interval of time that was convenient for me. Now instead of getting a system that makes my life easier and my experience more enjoyable, I get a nightmare. Yes we now have the option of setting our own extraction deadlines which is nice, but now I have to redesign my whole 6 planets (and I feel for those with many alts who had a much greater number of planets), I will probably need to rebuy all my command centers as I will probably need to switch planets or move their locations. Perfectly well-put, I couldn't have said it any better myself. I'd be happy to sacrifice efficiency and high yield in order to just get barely enough parts to supply my 2 small POS towers in hisec with a run out to pickup the P1 and P2 products every week. Now if I want to produce at all for my POS towers, I have to brave going out to low/null every day in my Occator and move P0 and P1 around and pay excessive Launchpad fees to get those products off-world just to take them to a production planet and convert them into finished product where I once again get dinged on Launchpad fees. Not sure if any of you have checked Launchpad fees and figured them into your costs for doing PI, but when you are moving P0/P1 AND also removing the completed P2/P3, the costs add-up really damn fast. It's a sizable hit to margin for those selling remnant materials, and additional cost to making POS fuel. Not to mention a LOT more time out of my day and a requirement to camp space I normally wouldn't be wasting time in. ^This. wall of text but exactly what is my opinion, too. I am setting up all planets new because i feel old way is nerfed. Still PI handling is better but why in hell they nerfed it ?
Minamel Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2011.01.20 12:02:00 - [68] Edited by: Minamel on 20/01/2011 12:04:54 Originally by: Ginga Bishounen Originally by: Minamel As statet before this is a good idea but it is not possible in 0.0 due to the high volume of p0. If i would store half of my p0 ammount for later use, a spacepad would be full after about 30 hours. So, either: 1) use silos 2) rotate more frequently than 30 hours or 3) HTFU No. To rotate every 24 hours would mean 4000 cargo for P1 and P2 goods that is too less for my opinion. The problem is you dont match your 48.000 Units exactly if you get 55.000 for example the Pad gets full even faster. And i would not like to see Mechparts disappear cause of a full launchpad. If you add another Launchpad or Storage there is not enough grid left to run 4 P2 Lines (48.000 Units extraction per hour 8p1 Fabs 4 P2 Fabs) And if i go for 3 P2 Lines (36.000 Units per hour 6 p1 Fabs 3 P2 Fabs)it works smoothly with 2 Ecu an 4 Daycycles and without rotation. So then there is no reason to rotate after all. After all today we found another solution to almoast double the PI income..
flint dragon	Posted - 2011.01.20 12:05:00 - [69] u all sound like winny bit** either suck it up and learn a new way to do thing or stop and do something else the game about having fun and wasteing hr and to do what r want in it be it a miner pvp pve or anthing else
Barry Ze'Choppa	Posted - 2011.01.20 12:15:00 - [70] Halp.

Aphrodite Skripalle Galactic Defence Consortium	Posted - 2011.01.20 12:20:00 - [71] It REALLY would help if you can use stuff your corp mates made, not going to your pi planets yourself. It also really would help if you can use stored PI stuff already on planet without getting it up and down. And this would be logical too. Nobody would send it to space just to use it for cargo space and sell it on market or transfer it to your corp mate. So best solution would be to be able to transfer to someone on the same planet to make a production chain.
Zaerui	Posted - 2011.01.20 13:07:00 - [72] Originally by: Kharylien And if you want to do it the way you have been before, you STILL CAN. You just need to rotate what resource your ECU is extracting. Why is this apparently so difficult a concept for you people to grasp? Excellent. Mind gracing us with the knowledge of how to do this resource rotation without spending the extra time you'd need track depletion and hotspot formation? Not all of us can play 24/7, and under the old system I could build a setup and just let it run while I was out in actual reality. I'd know at the end of the cycle, I'd have X goods and I'd have to reset that cycle. Now, I have to babysit PI; I also have to babysit towers, invention, T2 chains, etc. If CCP wanted to make this game more like work and less like a game, they are doing a good job of it. I've said this in other threads - if you are just making tower fuel, the new system is better. If you are actually making goods for T2, paste, towers/mods, stations/upgrades, etc, you just had your complexity increase while your output decreased. My earlier P4 output was much higher than it is now, primarily because my P1/P2/P3 output was stable (CC5/IC5 here). Now it is not stable, because I can't pull all the resources I need at the rates I need them (and before you say "You're doing it wrong!" - re-read that sentance again. I can't pull ALL the resources I need AT THE RATES I need them.) It is entirely possible that was the goal CCP was trying to achieve; cripple P4 production, or at least slow the rates down dramatically. We'll see. I'll adapt (and I'm looking forward to increased T2 and tower prices; I think tower fuel will go down while T2 will continue to accelerate in price, and towers/mods might go parabolic). But to say the system is better is just not true - if you look at it from the whole production experience and not just with the limiting eye of tower fuel.
Shakon	Posted - 2011.01.20 13:17:00 - [73] Only ones i see likeing this new Hauling PI are guys using Macros and Bots to haul. Ah well pays ccp some money i guess to have an extra account to bot with.
Darth Anonymous Amarr GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.01.20 18:20:00 - [74] Originally by: Shakon Only ones i see likeing this new Hauling PI are guys using Macros and Bots to haul. Ah well pays ccp some money i guess to have an extra account to bot with. I personally have 9 eve guys on 3 accounts who do PI; doing a milk run every day on 3 characters at a time (click warp, alt-tab; repeat) takes a grand total of about 20 minutes and makes me around 300 million ISK a day.
Ephraim Glass	Posted - 2011.01.22 16:54:00 - [75] Edited by: Ephraim Glass on 22/01/2011 16:56:18 For those who prefer not to do milk runs, here's what I'm finding about the new system that is advantageous over the old system: You can still EASILY build up to P3 on a single planet with a minimum of waste. My setup consists of one extractor, three basic factories, and one or two advanced factories. Before, because each extractor could only extract one thing, there was an incentive to build a production chain for each P0 product that you pulled out of the ground. Now, because you can change what the extractor is extracting, you need to build just ONE production chain in total. Each time you switch what the extractor is digging up, you just retool the production chain to handle it. For example: Assume equal access to Heavy Metals, Base Metals, and Non-CS Crystals Days 1-10, have the extractor tuned to Heavy Metals and the three basic factories tuned to Toxic Metals. Days 11-15, have the extractor tuned to Basic Metals and the three basic factories tuned to Reactive Metals. Days 16-20, have the extractor tuned to Non-CS Crystals and the three basic factories tuned to Chiral Structures. Half of the time, have the one advanced factory producing Construction Blocks (Toxic and Reactive Metals). The other half of the time, have it producing Consumer Electronics (Toxic Metals and Chiral Structures). If you're on a planet where you have access to the right materials to build up to P3, then you just add a second advanced factory that uses the two different outputs of your first advanced factory. (Or if you find that your factory is using up the materials faster than you can extract them, use those spare cycles for the P3 build.) The savings in this setup is that you can more easily reuse your factories now without having to create really complicated networks of links. Get the layout down and then it's just a matter of reprogramming the extractor and the factories every N days.


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