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Two Shots
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Posted - 2011.01.18 21:01:00 -
[1]
Dear Amateur Planetary Interaction Users;
Making P2 or P3 products from scratch on a single planet has always been an inefficient use of character slots and planets.
It has always been more efficient to get a single P0->P1 reaction on a single planet, and then to produce P1->P2, or P1->P3 on separate planets.
If you were doing R0->P2, or R0->P3 on a single planet, then you were cutting yourself out of massive potential profits.
Complaining about your inability to no longer short-change yourself is foolish and it undermines my faith in human intelligence.
Please just conform to the new paradigm, which forces you to go along with more profitable avenues.
Thank you in advance,
Two Shots.
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Tandin
The Knights Templar
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.01.18 21:06:00 -
[2]
Have to agree with you on that one.. I'll still be producing 24 robotics/hour on 2 production planets using the other 4 to mine materials. No huge loss on my part.
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Herroth
Gallente
Wolf-Monkey Bastards
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Posted - 2011.01.18 21:16:00 -
[3]
It's not always about efficiency. Some try to create just enough to fuel a POS with a certain material. PI isn't just for mass production contrary to what you might believe.
It could also be argued that it is inefficient for a mission runner without refining skills to refine his own loot. Eve is a sandbox game meant to be played as the player chooses.
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Two Shots
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Posted - 2011.01.18 21:18:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Herroth
It's not always about efficiency. Some try to create just enough to fuel a POS with a certain material. PI isn't just for mass production contrary to what you might believe.
It could also be argued that it is inefficient for a mission runner without refining skills to refine his own loot. Eve is a sandbox game meant to be played as the player chooses.
If you ever find that you have produced too much of a commodity, then please contract the left-overs to me. I wouldn't want you to ruin your immersion by having excess Robotics or Rocket Fuel cluttering up your hangar.
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Petyr Baelich
Valar Morghulis.
Get Off My Lawn
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Posted - 2011.01.18 21:29:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Two Shots
Dear Amateur Planetary Interaction Users;
Making P2 or P3 products from scratch on a single planet has always been an inefficient use of character slots and planets.
It has always been more efficient to get a single P0->P1 reaction on a single planet, and then to produce P1->P2, or P1->P3 on separate planets.
If you were doing R0->P2, or R0->P3 on a single planet, then you were cutting yourself out of massive potential profits.
Complaining about your inability to no longer short-change yourself is foolish and it undermines my faith in human intelligence.
Please just conform to the new paradigm, which forces you to go along with more profitable avenues.
Thank you in advance,
Two Shots.
This. Thank you for restoring my faith in humanity.
Valar Morghulis is recruiting. |
Nekt
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Posted - 2011.01.18 21:31:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Nekt on 18/01/2011 21:31:50
Originally by: Two Shots
If you ever find that you have produced too much of a commodity, then please contract the left-overs to me. I wouldn't want you to ruin your immersion by having excess Robotics or Rocket Fuel cluttering up your hangar.
I don't see where he talked about immersion playing into it at all. Some people perhaps did not care about the wasted "efficiency" since that really depends on how much you value your time in game. If you wanna spend time hauling from planet to planet fine. To remove the ability to create enough robos for your pos only having to pick it up every two weeks seems pointless.
Its pretty obvious your just a trolling ass though.
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Two Shots
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Posted - 2011.01.18 21:49:00 -
[7]
Your avatar looks like he's having trouble passing a bowel movement.
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Nekt
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Posted - 2011.01.18 21:51:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Two Shots
Your avatar looks like he's having trouble passing a bowel movement.
Don't make fun of the cripple!
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Deandra Walran
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Posted - 2011.01.18 21:51:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Two Shots
Dear Amateur Planetary Interaction Users;
Making P2 or P3 products from scratch on a single planet has always been an inefficient use of character slots and planets.
It has always been more efficient to get a single P0->P1 reaction on a single planet, and then to produce P1->P2, or P1->P3 on separate planets.
If you were doing R0->P2, or R0->P3 on a single planet, then you were cutting yourself out of massive potential profits.
Complaining about your inability to no longer short-change yourself is foolish and it undermines my faith in human intelligence.
Please just conform to the new paradigm, which forces you to go along with more profitable avenues.
Thank you in advance,
Two Shots.
Prove it. Back up your theory with numbers. Do so for every combination of Interplanetary Consolidation and Command Center Upgrades.
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Staner Industries
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Posted - 2011.01.18 21:56:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Two Shots
Dear Amateur Planetary Interaction Users;
Making P2 or P3 products from scratch on a single planet has always been an inefficient use of character slots and planets.
It has always been more efficient to get a single P0->P1 reaction on a single planet, and then to produce P1->P2, or P1->P3 on separate planets.
If you were doing R0->P2, or R0->P3 on a single planet, then you were cutting yourself out of massive potential profits.
Complaining about your inability to no longer short-change yourself is foolish and it undermines my faith in human intelligence.
Please just conform to the new paradigm, which forces you to go along with more profitable avenues.
Thank you in advance,
Two Shots.
This is absolutely correct.
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Petyr Baelich
Valar Morghulis.
Get Off My Lawn
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Posted - 2011.01.18 21:59:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Deandra Walran
Prove it. Back up your theory with numbers. Do so for every combination of Interplanetary Consolidation and Command Center Upgrades.
Awww... you got us. It really was more efficient for the guy who only wanted to spend 1 day training PI skills to produce 3 robotics every hour on his intermediate cc highsec plasma planet. Well done!
Valar Morghulis is recruiting. |
Vanity 6
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Posted - 2011.01.18 22:00:00 -
[12]
Two shots, does the method you describe require more hauling? Every time I think of doing PI the way you describe I imagine more hauling.
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Kisle
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Posted - 2011.01.18 22:01:00 -
[13]
Well, i never ran this setup just because it add lots of logistic troubles. That is the reason i was making P2 on single planet, you have to actually undock and fly to the planets only once a 10-15 days to pick up the P2 products.
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Tandin
The Knights Templar
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.01.18 22:03:00 -
[14]
Clearly most of you have never run significant moon mining/reaction farms with POS's. This is actually far less hauling than that is.
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gforcer
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Posted - 2011.01.18 22:05:00 -
[15]
how would you know if my methods are inefficent, i can make all P4 products with my accounts, I put weeks into working it out and now it has all been undone, some one needs to friggin explain themselves at ccp. or they dont have a calculator to friggin add up the power cores.
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Deandra Walran
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Posted - 2011.01.18 22:41:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Petyr Baelich
Originally by: Deandra Walran
Prove it. Back up your theory with numbers. Do so for every combination of Interplanetary Consolidation and Command Center Upgrades.
Awww... you got us. It really was more efficient for the guy who only wanted to spend 1 day training PI skills to produce 3 robotics every hour on his intermediate cc highsec plasma planet. Well done!
Thought so. You can't prove that it is more efficient, so you start with an attempt (badly) at an ad hominem attack. Go back to WOW where those things are taken as proof.
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Two Shots
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Posted - 2011.01.18 22:53:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Vanity 6
Two shots, does the method you describe require more hauling? Every time I think of doing PI the way you describe I imagine more hauling.
Feeding a 5-planet setup with 1 character requires a single run in a rigged bestower each day.
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Chrome Ozone
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Posted - 2011.01.18 22:59:00 -
[18]
I don't know what the big issue is. The price will eventually creep up to compensate for the lack of production, just give it some time. As for me, I make p0 -> p2 on a single planet solely for the ease of use. I'm not terribly interested in having PI be my main money maker or time consumer, but it does help cut costs of production. I'm based just a couple of jumps from Jita and all my PI 10 jumps away in a .2. While not a ton better then straight up high sec it is better enough for me to justify my extractors being there and the area I found have the perfect setup of planets. Not wanting to make the 10 jump hop everyday, with a p0 -> p2 setup I was able to make around 250-275 mech parts or so a day which by the end of the week was enough to get me a decent amount of items to make robotics on a high sec planet in my home system. While I can't pull those same numbers after the change it really isn't all that far off and like I said I suspect prices to move slightly to compensate over time. I'm thankful for the clickfest to be over.
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Funesta
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Posted - 2011.01.19 00:17:00 -
[19]
Bravo, well said.
Just because robotics planets were popular doesn't mean they were well thought out. Some other half-baked system will be popular by next week. However, completely separating extraction & p1 from p2 - p3 - p4 manufacturing has always been, and will always be, more efficient.
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Deandra Walran
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Posted - 2011.01.19 00:24:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Funesta
Bravo, well said.
Just because robotics planets were popular doesn't mean they were well thought out. Some other half-baked system will be popular by next week. However, completely separating extraction & p1 from p2 - p3 - p4 manufacturing has always been, and will always be, more efficient.
Proof?
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Julien Brellier
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Posted - 2011.01.19 00:27:00 -
[21]
More efficent planets producing only P1 = more hauling = more time sink = less efficiency
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Mirac Factar
Gallente
Hypergolic
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Posted - 2011.01.19 00:37:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Two Shots
Dear Amateur Planetary Interaction Users;
Making P2 or P3 products from scratch on a single planet has always been an inefficient use of character slots and planets.
It has always been more efficient to get a single P0->P1 reaction on a single planet, and then to produce P1->P2, or P1->P3 on separate planets.
If you were doing R0->P2, or R0->P3 on a single planet, then you were cutting yourself out of massive potential profits.
Complaining about your inability to no longer short-change yourself is foolish and it undermines my faith in human intelligence.
Please just conform to the new paradigm, which forces you to go along with more profitable avenues.
Thank you in advance,
Two Shots.
This!
Although you shouldn't have told everyone, more people doing PI means i'll make less money.
This just in, the energizer bunny has been arrested and charged with battery. |
Turzyx
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.19 00:38:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Turzyx on 19/01/2011 00:40:44
Originally by: Deandra Walran
Originally by: Petyr Baelich
Originally by: Deandra Walran
Prove it. Back up your theory with numbers. Do so for every combination of Interplanetary Consolidation and Command Center Upgrades.
Awww... you got us. It really was more efficient for the guy who only wanted to spend 1 day training PI skills to produce 3 robotics every hour on his intermediate cc highsec plasma planet. Well done!
Thought so. You can't prove that it is more efficient, so you start with an attempt (badly) at an ad hominem attack. Go back to WOW where those things are taken as proof.
12 heads and 1 ECU uses 9200 powergrid
12 old extractors use 9200 powergrid
The extraction rates are comparable, maybe even more, with this new system. I get the same extraction rates with 3 heads that I used to get with 4 extractors, for example.
Anyway, the point is, if you are extracting on every planet, you are wasting grid on ECUs and only controlling 3-4 heads with each. It stands to reason that you should consolidate all your ECUs into one place, use all the head slots, and you can use the 'saved' powergrid to create more BIF/AIF in total (across all your planets).
Similarly, because you don't have long-ass links on every planet, your factory planets can use virtually 100% of their grid for factories. It's the combination of the two that makes it more efficient.
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Iodus
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Posted - 2011.01.19 01:36:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Turzyx
12 heads and 1 ECU uses 9200 powergrid
12 old extractors use 9200 powergrid
The extraction rates are comparable, maybe even more, with this new system. I get the same extraction rates with 3 heads that I used to get with 4 extractors, for example.
Anyway, the point is, if you are extracting on every planet, you are wasting grid on ECUs and only controlling 3-4 heads with each. It stands to reason that you should consolidate all your ECUs into one place, use all the head slots, and you can use the 'saved' powergrid to create more BIF/AIF in total (across all your planets).
Similarly, because you don't have long-ass links on every planet, your factory planets can use virtually 100% of their grid for factories. It's the combination of the two that makes it more efficient.
All you said is true if you were extracting only one resource per planet. Previous posters seem to assume that the only goal of PI is to specialize in the extraction of one resource or the production of one specific end product. That however is not the case and I don't see why I should suffer a system that penalizes me extravagantly for wanting to extract 2 or 3 different resources on the same planet.
Before the expansion, the extraction of more than one resource was penalized by the fact that you had to make a compromise in the quality of the deposits you wanted to exploit because you had to position yourself close to all the different resources. Therefore, you couldn't exploit that really rich base metals deposit because there weren't any felsic magma close-by for example. You also lost some MW/tf because of longer links.
The advantage however is that there was less hauling involved in the production of a given P2/P3 product because it could be produced on one planet and it also made the production of those goods available to players who spent less SP in PI.
Yes, specialization in the production of a single good is more effective, as a matter of fact, it was before the expansion. Now the advantage has just become outrageous and I could easily demonstrate how I lost about 40% production on most of my worlds because of the expansion.
I think the change has thrown the PI system out of balance and will force specialization upon everyone.
What I'm trying to understand and I would like to see someone answer, is why CCP thought it would be better to implement such a system? Why do they penalize the extraction of multiple resources on one planet so badly? How does this improve the game and my experience playing EVE?
Right now I'm really angry as I've spent a lot of time and much hard earned ISK setting up a system of planets that was very efficient, not in the sense that it produced the absolute maximum number of P3 or P4 goods, but in the sense that it achieved exactly the goal I had of producing different goods at a set interval of time that was convenient for me.
Now instead of getting a system that makes my life easier and my experience more enjoyable, I get a nightmare. Yes we now have the option of setting our own extraction deadlines which is nice, but now I have to redesign my whole 6 planets (and I feel for those with many alts who had a much greater number of planets), I will probably need to rebuy all my command centers as I will probably need to switch planets or move their locations.
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Zin Bloodjin
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Posted - 2011.01.19 01:56:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Zin Bloodjin on 19/01/2011 01:56:47
Originally by: Two Shots
Dear Amateur Planetary Interaction Users;
Making P2 or P3 products from scratch on a single planet has always been an inefficient use of character slots and planets.
It has always been more efficient to get a single P0->P1 reaction on a single planet, and then to produce P1->P2, or P1->P3 on separate planets.
If you were doing R0->P2, or R0->P3 on a single planet, then you were cutting yourself out of massive potential profits.
Complaining about your inability to no longer short-change yourself is foolish and it undermines my faith in human intelligence.
Please just conform to the new paradigm, which forces you to go along with more profitable avenues.
Thank you in advance,
Two Shots.
Dear condescending PI God;
A simple, meager passive income is all most PI users want. The rampant "foolishness" you refer to is evident on this very forum. These players do not wish to be taxed for transporting material A to planet Q, nor to they find transporting things in Eve to be fun in the slightest.
Assuming an air of superiority over the fact that you like watching virtual paint dry when level 4 missions pay better is foolish and it solidifies my love of delicious irony.
F you in hindsight,
Me
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Steelboat Lee
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Posted - 2011.01.19 02:02:00 -
[26]
Well if you say today's change I might agree, but making P2 is not "always" inefficient.
This is the picture I captured before.
http://tweetphoto.com/39396187
In 5 hours round this planet can produce 300 unit rocket fuel per day, also you need to have "clicking rampages" for 4 times on one day. If the averaged price of rocket fuel is 10k, then I can make 300x30x10000=90m per month. But this is the max output "used to be" in a single planet, you may not have time to click 4 times per day. The previos PI profit I think is fine, now the output would be lowred by 33%. Let's see the prodcut price going.
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Ephraim Glass
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Posted - 2011.01.19 02:05:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Iodus
I think the change has thrown the PI system out of balance and will force specialization upon everyone.
This was my first thought as well but I'm going to try a slightly modified approach to see if I can keep doing things roughly the way that I have been doing them. I'm running my extractors in 5.5 day cycles. Between cycles, I will switch the position of my drill heads to another material. Over the course of 3-5 cycles, I will extract large quantities of all of the different materials that I need. These are still feeding into my factories using the old rules that I set up under the old PI system. (Of course, I will change the rules if I find that they aren't working well.) After about a month, I expect to be producing all of the same goods I used to produce with as little wasted time and effort as before.
My opinion of the change is neutral, leaning negative. I think that this is going to require more micro-management and possibly more hauling on my part. Like some of the other posters that have spoken up, PI is NOT really a source of income for me, but a source of materials. I want it to do its thing in the background as much as possible without me having to fiddle with it.
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Umega
Solis Mensa
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Posted - 2011.01.19 03:03:00 -
[28]
Shut..
..up..
...op.
Let all the childern complain if they can't figure out the long term benefits of this new PI extraction method implemented. The less planet-poop per planet, the more PI rage quitters that are too stupid or unable to adapt to change.. the more profits per material for the people that do get it and adjust their planets properly, all via a less mindnumbing and dare I say more entertaining method.
Anyone complaining it isn't how they want it.. that's some tough ****. I made some peanut butter cookies.. they didn't turn out how I wanted them too. I guess I better go ***** out my oven, demand compensation from the flour and sugar companies, and crush a peanut in anger.. cause surely it is has nothing to do with me...
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Treat the EVE markets like you are its Pimp.. it is your 'willing' employee to fondle n use n abuse as you please. |
Deandra Walran
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Posted - 2011.01.19 03:13:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Umega
Anyone complaining it isn't how they want it.. that's some tough ****. I made some peanut butter cookies.. they didn't turn out how I wanted them too. I guess I better go ***** out my oven, demand compensation from the flour and sugar companies, and crush a peanut in anger.. cause surely it is has nothing to do with me...
The thing is, you didn't bake any cookies. The baker (CCP) did and used sawdust instead of flour.
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Umega
Solis Mensa
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Posted - 2011.01.19 03:22:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Deandra Walran
Originally by: Umega
Anyone complaining it isn't how they want it.. that's some tough ****. I made some peanut butter cookies.. they didn't turn out how I wanted them too. I guess I better go ***** out my oven, demand compensation from the flour and sugar companies, and crush a peanut in anger.. cause surely it is has nothing to do with me...
The thing is, you didn't bake any cookies. The baker (CCP) did and used sawdust instead of flour.
Uhm.. no. The analogy is simply that CCP gave you ingredients.. now go bake what you want from those ingredients in whatever manner you see fit. Just because you may fail.. when others succeed, you should question yourself instead of the ingredients.
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Treat the EVE markets like you are its Pimp.. it is your 'willing' employee to fondle n use n abuse as you please. |
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Two Shots
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Posted - 2011.01.19 03:26:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Two Shots on 19/01/2011 03:30:56
Edited by: Two Shots on 19/01/2011 03:28:43
Originally by: Zin Bloodjin
Edited by: Zin Bloodjin on 19/01/2011 01:56:47
Originally by: Two Shots
Dear Amateur Planetary Interaction Users;
Making P2 or P3 products from scratch on a single planet has always been an inefficient use of character slots and planets.
It has always been more efficient to get a single P0->P1 reaction on a single planet, and then to produce P1->P2, or P1->P3 on separate planets.
If you were doing R0->P2, or R0->P3 on a single planet, then you were cutting yourself out of massive potential profits.
Complaining about your inability to no longer short-change yourself is foolish and it undermines my faith in human intelligence.
Please just conform to the new paradigm, which forces you to go along with more profitable avenues.
Thank you in advance,
Two Shots.
Dear condescending PI God;
A simple, meager passive income is all most PI users want. The rampant "foolishness" you refer to is evident on this very forum. These players do not wish to be taxed for transporting material A to planet Q, nor to they find transporting things in Eve to be fun in the slightest.
Assuming an air of superiority over the fact that you like watching virtual paint dry when level 4 missions pay better is foolish and it solidifies my love of delicious irony.
F you in hindsight,
Me
In order to pick up your P2s from Planet 1, you need to undock your hauler and warp to Planet 1; then, you need to warp to Planet 2, Planet 3, Planet 4, and Planet 5 to pick up P2s; then, you return to station and dock up.
In order to pick up my P1s from Planet 1, I need to undock my hauler and warp to planet 1; then, I warp to Planet 2, Planet 3, and Planet 4 to pick up P2s; then, I need to warp to Planet 5 to drop them off at a factory and pick up finished P2s; then, I return to station and dock.
At the end of the cycle, we have both undocked a hauler, warped to 5 planets (or however many you want to substitute for 5), and then returned to station and docked; but, I have produced more of my P2 than you have by making your own P2s on each planet.
Think what you want.
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Deandra Walran
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Posted - 2011.01.19 03:32:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Umega
Originally by: Deandra Walran
Originally by: Umega
Anyone complaining it isn't how they want it.. that's some tough ****. I made some peanut butter cookies.. they didn't turn out how I wanted them too. I guess I better go ***** out my oven, demand compensation from the flour and sugar companies, and crush a peanut in anger.. cause surely it is has nothing to do with me...
The thing is, you didn't bake any cookies. The baker (CCP) did and used sawdust instead of flour.
Uhm.. no. The analogy is simply that CCP gave you ingredients.. now go bake what you want from those ingredients in whatever manner you see fit. Just because you may fail.. when others succeed, you should question yourself instead of the ingredients.
Wow, condescend much. How about you get your **** outta your mouth and understand that some people may have specific problems that *your* prefered method of PI won't help with.
I live in a damn WH with a few planets. My static is to another WH. I have the planets in my system to make POS fuels, and again, there are only a few planets. I was supplying the fuel for a single large POS with 1 character on 3 planets. It was just enough to do this. To do the same thing with the same resources will require a second character, period.
2 character to do what 1 did before is a ****ed up design.
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Two Shots
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Posted - 2011.01.19 03:37:00 -
[33]
EVE has always favored more pilots over less pilots. Your gripe isn't with PI; it's with the EVE game dynamic.
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Umega
Solis Mensa
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Posted - 2011.01.19 03:49:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Umega on 19/01/2011 03:49:58
Originally by: Deandra Walran
Originally by: Umega
Originally by: Deandra Walran
Originally by: Umega
Anyone complaining it isn't how they want it.. that's some tough ****. I made some peanut butter cookies.. they didn't turn out how I wanted them too. I guess I better go ***** out my oven, demand compensation from the flour and sugar companies, and crush a peanut in anger.. cause surely it is has nothing to do with me...
The thing is, you didn't bake any cookies. The baker (CCP) did and used sawdust instead of flour.
Uhm.. no. The analogy is simply that CCP gave you ingredients.. now go bake what you want from those ingredients in whatever manner you see fit. Just because you may fail.. when others succeed, you should question yourself instead of the ingredients.
Wow, condescend much. How about you get your **** outta your mouth and understand that some people may have specific problems that *your* prefered method of PI won't help with.
I live in a damn WH with a few planets. My static is to another WH. I have the planets in my system to make POS fuels, and again, there are only a few planets. I was supplying the fuel for a single large POS with 1 character on 3 planets. It was just enough to do this. To do the same thing with the same resources will require a second character, period.
2 character to do what 1 did before is a ****ed up design.
So your 'trapped' in a certain situation.. not by CCP's design, but by your own approach to how you want to play the game.. and that is live in that specifc wormhole, that somehow has the right 3 planets and only 3 planets to fuel a large POS. Right..
And now you are suffering from 'bitter-vet' syndrome cause it was working your way before, and you don't want to take the time or effort to figure how to make it in a new way. Trying to make it work under your old way is only representing yourself here is a whiney lil *****, crying to momma to make things 'right'.. instead of creating a new way to achieve what you want PI to do for you.
And my preferred way is more profits and to have more fun. Both of which have been achieved. Thanks for the new PI, CCP! I like the new diverse strategic style over the mind numbingly repeatative clickfest, this is after all.. a Game.
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Treat the EVE markets like you are its Pimp.. it is your 'willing' employee to fondle n use n abuse as you please. |
Una Achura
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Posted - 2011.01.19 10:01:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Two Shots
Edited by: Two Shots on 19/01/2011 03:30:56
Edited by: Two Shots on 19/01/2011 03:28:43
Originally by: Zin Bloodjin
Edited by: Zin Bloodjin on 19/01/2011 01:56:47
Originally by: Two Shots
Dear Amateur Planetary Interaction Users;
Making P2 or P3 products from scratch on a single planet has always been an inefficient use of character slots and planets.
It has always been more efficient to get a single P0->P1 reaction on a single planet, and then to produce P1->P2, or P1->P3 on separate planets.
If you were doing R0->P2, or R0->P3 on a single planet, then you were cutting yourself out of massive potential profits.
Complaining about your inability to no longer short-change yourself is foolish and it undermines my faith in human intelligence.
Please just conform to the new paradigm, which forces you to go along with more profitable avenues.
Thank you in advance,
Two Shots.
Dear condescending PI God;
A simple, meager passive income is all most PI users want. The rampant "foolishness" you refer to is evident on this very forum. These players do not wish to be taxed for transporting material A to planet Q, nor to they find transporting things in Eve to be fun in the slightest.
Assuming an air of superiority over the fact that you like watching virtual paint dry when level 4 missions pay better is foolish and it solidifies my love of delicious irony.
F you in hindsight,
Me
In order to pick up your P2s from Planet 1, you need to undock your hauler and warp to Planet 1; then, you need to warp to Planet 2, Planet 3, Planet 4, and Planet 5 to pick up P2s; then, you return to station and dock up.
In order to pick up my P1s from Planet 1, I need to undock my hauler and warp to planet 1; then, I warp to Planet 2, Planet 3, and Planet 4 to pick up P2s; then, I need to warp to Planet 5 to drop them off at a factory and pick up finished P2s; then, I return to station and dock.
At the end of the cycle, we have both undocked a hauler, warped to 5 planets (or however many you want to substitute for 5), and then returned to station and docked; but, I have produced more of my P2 than you have by making your own P2s on each planet.
Think what you want.
Though you do this every single day, and I do it every two weeks. Also, my planets are in lowsec and quite a distance from my "home" meaning even more time to scout. That increased hauling and scouting has a cost. To me subjectively that cost is greater than the extra production I can get with your system. My way works for me and is in no way "inefficient" when I apply the extra costs you seem to belive are "free".
My time spent hauling is damn expensive, cause it feels like work, not play. Your mileage may vary.
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Uncle Archibo
|
Posted - 2011.01.19 11:58:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Una Achura
Originally by: Two Shots
Edited by: Two Shots on 19/01/2011 03:30:56
Edited by: Two Shots on 19/01/2011 03:28:43
Originally by: Zin Bloodjin
Edited by: Zin Bloodjin on 19/01/2011 01:56:47
Originally by: Two Shots
Dear Amateur Planetary Interaction Users;
Making P2 or P3 products from scratch on a single planet has always been an inefficient use of character slots and planets.
It has always been more efficient to get a single P0->P1 reaction on a single planet, and then to produce P1->P2, or P1->P3 on separate planets.
If you were doing R0->P2, or R0->P3 on a single planet, then you were cutting yourself out of massive potential profits.
Complaining about your inability to no longer short-change yourself is foolish and it undermines my faith in human intelligence.
Please just conform to the new paradigm, which forces you to go along with more profitable avenues.
Thank you in advance,
Two Shots.
Dear condescending PI God;
A simple, meager passive income is all most PI users want. The rampant "foolishness" you refer to is evident on this very forum. These players do not wish to be taxed for transporting material A to planet Q, nor to they find transporting things in Eve to be fun in the slightest.
Assuming an air of superiority over the fact that you like watching virtual paint dry when level 4 missions pay better is foolish and it solidifies my love of delicious irony.
F you in hindsight,
Me
In order to pick up your P2s from Planet 1, you need to undock your hauler and warp to Planet 1; then, you need to warp to Planet 2, Planet 3, Planet 4, and Planet 5 to pick up P2s; then, you return to station and dock up.
In order to pick up my P1s from Planet 1, I need to undock my hauler and warp to planet 1; then, I warp to Planet 2, Planet 3, and Planet 4 to pick up P2s; then, I need to warp to Planet 5 to drop them off at a factory and pick up finished P2s; then, I return to station and dock.
At the end of the cycle, we have both undocked a hauler, warped to 5 planets (or however many you want to substitute for 5), and then returned to station and docked; but, I have produced more of my P2 than you have by making your own P2s on each planet.
Think what you want.
Though you do this every single day, and I do it every two weeks. Also, my planets are in lowsec and quite a distance from my "home" meaning even more time to scout. That increased hauling and scouting has a cost. To me subjectively that cost is greater than the extra production I can get with your system. My way works for me and is in no way "inefficient" when I apply the extra costs you seem to belive are "free".
My time spent hauling is damn expensive, cause it feels like work, not play. Your mileage may vary.
In his defense, he might not actually have to haul every day. If he's willing to take a while to get rolling again, then he could let each of his P1 planets do their thing for two weeks and then do a hauling run. He'll end up dumping a large inventory of P1 materials onto his factory planet and it will take some significant fraction of the next two weeks for the factories to burn through them all.
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Brock Nelson
Caldari
T2 Technologies Unlimited
SRS.
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Posted - 2011.01.19 13:27:00 -
[37]
OP, your problem is that you're making assumption that everyone's PI alts are in the same system every day of the week to ensure that the extractor planets storage are emptied and moved to factory planet.
Originally by: Lutz Major
Originally by: Lazy Poster
Where can I go to learn about this?
You could visit the stickies!?
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Keta Fraal
Nul and Booleans
|
Posted - 2011.01.19 14:24:00 -
[38]
I too produced robotics on 4 planets before the patch, and my last planet produced mechanical parts. For POS fueling it was sufficient and therefore since my game wasn't about PI maximization, it was efficient playstyle.
Eve is not about playing alone though, and when CCP saw that PI's sole purpose was becoming POS fuels, they decided to require further specialization. The PI career is now enriched. Owning a POS has more requirements in terms of interacting with other players, unless you want to do more frequent hauling.
I used to be able to make robotics without hauling at all for weeks. So to say the hauling is the same is wrong. PI is more specialized, and for those who like it, good for them. For those who need robotics, suck it up and make it work.
Now if only nanite repair paste could be a viable product for profit...
---------------------------------------
Completely ignore any whining that is not toilet orientated. |
Minamel
Stardust Heavy Industries
Majesta Empire
|
Posted - 2011.01.19 14:46:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Minamel on 19/01/2011 15:00:55
Edited by: Minamel on 19/01/2011 14:59:25
Quote:
Dear Amateur Planetary Interaction Users; Making P2 or P3 products from scratch on a single planet has always been an inefficient use of character slots and planets. It has always been more efficient to get a single P0->P1 reaction on a single planet, and then to produce P1->P2, or P1->P3 on separate planets. If you were doing R0->P2, or R0->P3 on a single planet, then you were cutting yourself out of massive potential profits. Complaining about your inability to no longer short-change yourself is foolish and it undermines my faith in human intelligence. Please just conform to the new paradigm, which forces you to go along with more profitable avenues. Thank you in advance, Two Shots.
Dear Threadstarter,
after the patch this may be right because now you are forced to use as much as possible heads to minimize the powercost per head.
BUT:
Before the patch you could have 4 p0->p2 lines per planet (in 0.0) and with 6 planets 24 p2 lines per character.
With fabrication planets you had maybe 10-12 p1 lines on a recourceplanet and 23 P2 fabs on a fabrication planet. So per charakter you could have 60 P1 (5 Planets) + 23 P2 (1 Planet) or to match it 55 P1 + 28 P2.
28 P2 Fabs are 4,6 P2 Fabs per Planet.
So we talking abbout 4 vs 4,6 P2 Fabs per Planet or 24 vs 28 P2 lines per character.
So with going p0->p2 for loosing 4 lines (not the epic efficency gap you talk of) there would be not a single p0 or p1 to move.
So if YOU think that 4 P2 lines more per character are worth a haulin nightmare its ok but dont write an essay abbout human intelligence here.
|
Nepenthis
Darqsyde Exploration Limited
|
Posted - 2011.01.19 15:11:00 -
[40]
OP i think you are also forgetting those that live in WH's and have limited access to planets. If you only have 1 plasma planet, maybe you need to be able to produce just enough robots for your pos. Yes it's not as profitable as your system but it's not about profit it's about needs of the corp/system.
|
|
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Minamel
Stardust Heavy Industries
Majesta Empire
|
Posted - 2011.01.19 16:04:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Minamel on 19/01/2011 16:10:18
Edited by: Minamel on 19/01/2011 16:06:05
Quote:
This was my first thought as well but I'm going to try a slightly modified approach to see if I can keep doing things roughly the way that I have been doing them. I'm running my extractors in 5.5 day cycles. Between cycles, I will switch the position of my drill heads to another material. Over the course of 3-5 cycles, I will extract large quantities of all of the different materials that I need. These are still feeding into my factories using the old rules that I set up under the old PI system. (Of course, I will change the rules if I find that they aren't working well.) After about a month, I expect to be producing all of the same goods I used to produce with as little wasted time and effort as before. My opinion of the change is neutral, leaning negative. I think that this is going to require more micro-management and possibly more hauling on my part. Like some of the other posters that have spoken up, PI is NOT really a source of income for me, but a source of materials. I want it to do its thing in the background as much as possible without me having to fiddle with it.
This is a good idea that came up in our corp too. Just extract double the amount you need from a and switch to b after some days. the problem is that p0 has very high volume and an extraction of 48.000 Units (4 p2 lines) and therefore a storage of 24.000 units per hour means 5760m¦ to store for each day. So in 0.0 its just impossible if you not want to permanently change all your p1 fabs too. Maybe a solution for highsec with the very low extraction rates you find there, but if you ask me extraction in high sec isnt worth the time..
For me i have testet all the options i see in the moment.
option one:
Go for 3P2 lines per planet with 2 Ecus (2x4 heads). the ecus extract 2x 18000 Units per hour so i can run 6 P1 and therefore 3 p2 fabs. 18.000 units make it possible to go with 3 or 4 day cycles.
option two:
Go for p0->p1 planets + p1->p2 planets.
I testet it a bit on sisi 1 ecu with maximum heads extracted 60-80k Units per hour with 23h cycle. So i had to upgrade the links 3-4 times and after all had a maximum of 10-11 p1 fabs per planet. So lets say you have 25 P2 Fabs and 50P1 fabs per charakter the result is now abbout 4 P2 lines per planet (less than before the patch dont know exactly why).
So now you can go for 3 lines per planet with lazyomode and nice 3 or 4 day cycles, or you can maximize profits with option b but then with hauling, possible depletion problems and 23 hour cycles..
As for me i am lazy.. I will stay with p0-> p2 planets. But with 3 vs 4 p2 lines per planet the decision is harder than before the patch..
We now talking abbout 25%/33% difference instead of 14%/16% before the patch..
|
Nicky's Tomb
|
Posted - 2011.01.19 16:25:00 -
[42]
+1 to OP. Complete sense.
Putting P1->Pn processors on a good extraction yield planet is like putting your farm yard buildings in the middle of your most fertile fields.
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Tandin
The Knights Templar
R.A.G.E
|
Posted - 2011.01.19 17:50:00 -
[43]
So what this whole debate boils down to is a discussion of:
Efficiency of Motion (hauling) <-> Efficiency of Production Rate (amounts produced)
or...
Labor/Effort <-> ISK Yield
The new system clearly favors the ISK/Production Rate side of the balance. It means you have to do more work, but you get more cash out of it.
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Two Shots
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Posted - 2011.01.19 19:32:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Minamel
Edited by: Minamel on 19/01/2011 15:00:55
Edited by: Minamel on 19/01/2011 14:59:25
Quote:
Dear Amateur Planetary Interaction Users; Making P2 or P3 products from scratch on a single planet has always been an inefficient use of character slots and planets. It has always been more efficient to get a single P0->P1 reaction on a single planet, and then to produce P1->P2, or P1->P3 on separate planets. If you were doing R0->P2, or R0->P3 on a single planet, then you were cutting yourself out of massive potential profits. Complaining about your inability to no longer short-change yourself is foolish and it undermines my faith in human intelligence. Please just conform to the new paradigm, which forces you to go along with more profitable avenues. Thank you in advance, Two Shots.
Dear Threadstarter,
after the patch this may be right because now you are forced to use as much as possible heads to minimize the powercost per head.
BUT:
Before the patch you could have 4 p0->p2 lines per planet (in 0.0) and with 6 planets 24 p2 lines per character.
With fabrication planets you had maybe 10-12 p1 lines on a recourceplanet and 23 P2 fabs on a fabrication planet. So per charakter you could have 60 P1 (5 Planets) + 23 P2 (1 Planet) or to match it 55 P1 + 28 P2.
28 P2 Fabs are 4,6 P2 Fabs per Planet.
So we talking abbout 4 vs 4,6 P2 Fabs per Planet or 24 vs 28 P2 lines per character.
So with going p0->p2 for loosing 4 lines (not the epic efficency gap you talk of) there would be not a single p0 or p1 to move.
So if YOU think that 4 P2 lines more per character are worth a haulin nightmare its ok but dont write an essay abbout human intelligence here.
Haha you're in Majesta. 
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Minamel
Stardust Heavy Industries
Majesta Empire
|
Posted - 2011.01.19 20:23:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Minamel on 19/01/2011 20:25:44
Indeed...
We have space..
Linkage
bff!
Let me think how to continue on this level..
Oh yea my avatar is much more pretty than yours 
If you wanna talk ontopic do it please.
I gave you some numbers. Accept it and learn, or continue talking abbout others intelligence..
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Zircalla
|
Posted - 2011.01.19 20:55:00 -
[46]
Old system - I had 5 planets essentially producing 17-20 P2 items per hour, pretty much non-stop.
New System - Under development, but I will probably end up with 4 producing planets and one adv. processing planet. I can (at least on paper) produce the same amount of P1 per planet, but only adv. process about 1/2 of it on the same planet. This involves a 3-day cycle and only a couple of clicks per planet (nice), but I may be able to approach the old rate if I optimize for shorter cycles.
As for efficiency, I like to leave it run for a few days while I am 'gone' from system, so I will have to see how the hauling works out.
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Darth Anonymous
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.19 23:16:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Minamel
Indeed..
We have space.
Linkage
Bff!
And you are?
Two Shots is a goon alt in Theta Squad.
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Chelone
Junkyard Gunners
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Posted - 2011.01.20 00:04:00 -
[48]
OP seems to think time is a free commodity. Fail.
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Two Shots
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Posted - 2011.01.20 00:12:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Chelone
OP seems to think time is a free commodity. Fail.
Quoted poster seems to misunderstand the use of the word "fail". Unfortunate.
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Deandra Walran
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Posted - 2011.01.20 00:40:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Darth Anonymous
Two Shots is a goon alt in Theta Squad.
Wouldn't that mean that the OP is a lying scammer and we should ignore the entire premise of this thread?
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|
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Two Shots
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Posted - 2011.01.20 01:25:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Two Shots on 20/01/2011 01:28:51
Originally by: Deandra Walran
Originally by: Darth Anonymous
Two Shots is a goon alt in Theta Squad.
Wouldn't that mean that the OP is a lying scammer and we should ignore the entire premise of this thread?
Since the majority of people who fiddle with Planetary Interaction are too thick to do basic math for themselves and don't read the forums, I don't see much of a difference whether you believe me or not. I think it's funny that you're ready to throw out provable facts because of the person who presents them.
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Deandra Walran
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Posted - 2011.01.20 02:23:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Two Shots
Edited by: Two Shots on 20/01/2011 01:28:51
Originally by: Deandra Walran
Originally by: Darth Anonymous
Two Shots is a goon alt in Theta Squad.
Wouldn't that mean that the OP is a lying scammer and we should ignore the entire premise of this thread?
Since the majority of people who fiddle with Planetary Interaction are too thick to do basic math for themselves and don't read the forums, I don't see much of a difference whether you believe me or not. I think it's funny that you're ready to throw out provable facts because of the person who presents them.
Shall I refer you back to post #9 of this thread?
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Two Shots
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Posted - 2011.01.20 02:25:00 -
[53]
Go for it. I still won't do it. Someone who values their time less than I do will come along, sooner or later, and hold your hand through the math.
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Deandra Walran
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Posted - 2011.01.20 02:34:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Two Shots
Go for it. I still won't do it. Someone who values their time less than I do will come along, sooner or later, and hold your hand through the math.
In other words, you don't you can't prove your statement is indeed fact beyond yelling as loudly as you can that it is a fact.
Go scam a nub outa 500m and leave the production to the real players.
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Two Shots
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Posted - 2011.01.20 03:59:00 -
[55]
Keep talking and bumping TIA.
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Kharylien
Gallente
Masked Rider Project
|
Posted - 2011.01.20 04:08:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Herroth
It's not always about efficiency. Some try to create just enough to fuel a POS with a certain material. PI isn't just for mass production contrary to what you might believe.
It could also be argued that it is inefficient for a mission runner without refining skills to refine his own loot. Eve is a sandbox game meant to be played as the player chooses.
Alternatively, you can build a more efficient setup, and lay in a surplus of POS fuel such that if you miss your PI restarts for some reason, you aren't going to find yourself with a fuel shortage.
Don't think of it as building for mass production. Think of it as building such as to free yourself from the shackles of extractor timers.
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Kharylien
Gallente
Masked Rider Project
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Posted - 2011.01.20 04:12:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Deandra Walran
I live in a damn WH with a few planets. My static is to another WH. I have the planets in my system to make POS fuels, and again, there are only a few planets. I was supplying the fuel for a single large POS with 1 character on 3 planets. It was just enough to do this. To do the same thing with the same resources will require a second character, period.
2 character to do what 1 did before is a ****ed up design.
Alternatively, you could do it with one if you did it intelligently?
An ECU isn't limited to just one product. Extract one ingredient, stockpile the result, switch extractors to second ingredient, rotate as necessary; do it properly and you won't even have to have your processors idle so long as you keep up your extraction rotation.
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Deandra Walran
|
Posted - 2011.01.20 04:23:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Kharylien
Alternatively, you could do it with one if you did it intelligently?
An ECU isn't limited to just one product. Extract one ingredient, stockpile the result, switch extractors to second ingredient, rotate as necessary; do it properly and you won't even have to have your processors idle so long as you keep up your extraction rotation.
Without having a scan of the planets in question and not knowing the locations of the resources, you have decided that I'm not doing things intelligently. Thanks for jumping to conclusions without any detailed information.
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Kharylien
Gallente
Masked Rider Project
|
Posted - 2011.01.20 04:38:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Deandra Walran
Originally by: Kharylien
Alternatively, you could do it with one if you did it intelligently?
An ECU isn't limited to just one product. Extract one ingredient, stockpile the result, switch extractors to second ingredient, rotate as necessary; do it properly and you won't even have to have your processors idle so long as you keep up your extraction rotation.
Without having a scan of the planets in question and not knowing the locations of the resources, you have decided that I'm not doing things intelligently. Thanks for jumping to conclusions without any detailed information.
You're the one contending that you could produce things before that you can't now.
With a well-thought out approach to production, you can go from P0 to Pn on a single planet better now than you ever could before.
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Chong Woon
|
Posted - 2011.01.20 05:40:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Chong Woon on 20/01/2011 05:42:21
Edited by: Chong Woon on 20/01/2011 05:41:59
Basically Old PI for me was a trade off between time and efficiency. After reading the forums in sisi that the changes tend to favor R0 to P1 goods. I opted to change how my planets produced goods. Less clicking involved is good, although I do wish CCP had given out a basic "how to" of the new system instead of just leaving us to stumble around. :P As of now still indifferent to the new changes.
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Chelone
Junkyard Gunners
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Posted - 2011.01.20 06:31:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Two Shots
Originally by: Chelone
OP seems to think time is a free commodity. Fail.
Quoted poster seems to misunderstand the use of the word "fail". Unfortunate.
Quoted OP denies his own failure. This must in fact be true, proving that his flawed argument was in fact facetious and that he is exposing himself as the PI forum troll he really is. Unfortunate.
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Ranja Jeemana
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Posted - 2011.01.20 07:02:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Iodus
All you said is true if you were extracting only one resource per planet. Previous posters seem to assume that the only goal of PI is to specialize in the extraction of one resource or the production of one specific end product. That however is not the case and I don't see why I should suffer a system that penalizes me extravagantly for wanting to extract 2 or 3 different resources on the same planet.
Before the expansion, the extraction of more than one resource was penalized by the fact that you had to make a compromise in the quality of the deposits you wanted to exploit because you had to position yourself close to all the different resources. Therefore, you couldn't exploit that really rich base metals deposit because there weren't any felsic magma close-by for example. You also lost some MW/tf because of longer links.
The advantage however is that there was less hauling involved in the production of a given P2/P3 product because it could be produced on one planet and it also made the production of those goods available to players who spent less SP in PI.
Yes, specialization in the production of a single good is more effective, as a matter of fact, it was before the expansion. Now the advantage has just become outrageous and I could easily demonstrate how I lost about 40% production on most of my worlds because of the expansion.
I think the change has thrown the PI system out of balance and will force specialization upon everyone.
What I'm trying to understand and I would like to see someone answer, is why CCP thought it would be better to implement such a system? Why do they penalize the extraction of multiple resources on one planet so badly? How does this improve the game and my experience playing EVE?
Right now I'm really angry as I've spent a lot of time and much hard earned ISK setting up a system of planets that was very efficient, not in the sense that it produced the absolute maximum number of P3 or P4 goods, but in the sense that it achieved exactly the goal I had of producing different goods at a set interval of time that was convenient for me.
Now instead of getting a system that makes my life easier and my experience more enjoyable, I get a nightmare. Yes we now have the option of setting our own extraction deadlines which is nice, but now I have to redesign my whole 6 planets (and I feel for those with many alts who had a much greater number of planets), I will probably need to rebuy all my command centers as I will probably need to switch planets or move their locations.
Perfectly well-put, I couldn't have said it any better myself. I'd be happy to sacrifice efficiency and high yield in order to just get barely enough parts to supply my 2 small POS towers in hisec with a run out to pickup the P1 and P2 products every week. Now if I want to produce at all for my POS towers, I have to brave going out to low/null every day in my Occator and move P0 and P1 around and pay excessive Launchpad fees to get those products off-world just to take them to a production planet and convert them into finished product where I once again get dinged on Launchpad fees. Not sure if any of you have checked Launchpad fees and figured them into your costs for doing PI, but when you are moving P0/P1 AND also removing the completed P2/P3, the costs add-up really damn fast. It's a sizable hit to margin for those selling remnant materials, and additional cost to making POS fuel. Not to mention a LOT more time out of my day and a requirement to camp space I normally wouldn't be wasting time in.
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Kharylien
Gallente
Masked Rider Project
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Posted - 2011.01.20 07:23:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Ranja Jeemana
I'd be happy to sacrifice efficiency and high yield in order to just get barely enough parts to supply my 2 small POS towers in hisec with a run out to pickup the P1 and P2 products every week. Now if I want to produce at all for my POS towers, I have to brave going out to low/null every day in my Occator and move P0 and P1 around and pay excessive Launchpad fees to get those products off-world just to take them to a production planet and convert them into finished product where I once again get dinged on Launchpad fees. Not sure if any of you have checked Launchpad fees and figured them into your costs for doing PI, but when you are moving P0/P1 AND also removing the completed P2/P3, the costs add-up really damn fast. It's a sizable hit to margin for those selling remnant materials, and additional cost to making POS fuel. Not to mention a LOT more time out of my day and a requirement to camp space I normally wouldn't be wasting time in.
If you're launching and moving P0, you're doing it wrong. P1 fees aren't that high.
And if you want to do it the way you have been before, you STILL CAN. You just need to rotate what resource your ECU is extracting.
Why is this apparently so difficult a concept for you people to grasp?
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Minamel
Stardust Heavy Industries
Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2011.01.20 08:14:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Minamel on 20/01/2011 08:14:59
Quote:
You just need to rotate what resource your ECU is extracting.
As statet before this is a good idea but it is not possible in 0.0 due to the high volume of p0.
If i would store half of my p0 ammount for later use, a spacepad would be full after about 30 hours.
So to rotate extraction you would have to rotate ALL the P1 Fabs too,and i dont like the idea to reroute resources for all p1 Fabs every few days because i have some more than 10..
Of course a rotation and storing of some p0 could be good solution for high sec where the extraction is so low that it maybe do not fill your spacepad that fast.
@ Thread
Moving P1 would for me would result in hauling of 70.000-90.000m¦ per day and i dont wana do that. Going p0->p2 means less than 20.000m¦ a day (just take the endproduct from every planet once in 10 days. Even if i have 14% (before patch) or 25% (after the patch) less output what i have more is free time.
And i have user friendly 3 or 4 day cycles.
As alrdy statet with extractionplanets and extraction up to 80.000 Units per hour with 1day cycles a planet now possibly depletes very fast (too fast?) what could cause problems in maintaining p1 production.
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Ginga Bishounen
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Posted - 2011.01.20 11:43:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Minamel
As statet before this is a good idea but it is not possible in 0.0 due to the high volume of p0.
If i would store half of my p0 ammount for later use, a spacepad would be full after about 30 hours.
So, either:
1) use silos
2) rotate more frequently than 30 hours
or
3) HTFU
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Bitchslaping Biatch
|
Posted - 2011.01.20 11:48:00 -
[66]
This is plain and simple wrong. If we stop doing pi at all, the fuel shortage will make them come to they senses again. Stop pi for good
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Aphrodite Skripalle
Galactic Defence Consortium
|
Posted - 2011.01.20 12:01:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Ranja Jeemana
Originally by: Iodus
All you said is true if you were extracting only one resource per planet. Previous posters seem to assume that the only goal of PI is to specialize in the extraction of one resource or the production of one specific end product. That however is not the case and I don't see why I should suffer a system that penalizes me extravagantly for wanting to extract 2 or 3 different resources on the same planet.
Before the expansion, the extraction of more than one resource was penalized by the fact that you had to make a compromise in the quality of the deposits you wanted to exploit because you had to position yourself close to all the different resources. Therefore, you couldn't exploit that really rich base metals deposit because there weren't any felsic magma close-by for example. You also lost some MW/tf because of longer links.
The advantage however is that there was less hauling involved in the production of a given P2/P3 product because it could be produced on one planet and it also made the production of those goods available to players who spent less SP in PI.
Yes, specialization in the production of a single good is more effective, as a matter of fact, it was before the expansion. Now the advantage has just become outrageous and I could easily demonstrate how I lost about 40% production on most of my worlds because of the expansion.
I think the change has thrown the PI system out of balance and will force specialization upon everyone.
What I'm trying to understand and I would like to see someone answer, is why CCP thought it would be better to implement such a system? Why do they penalize the extraction of multiple resources on one planet so badly? How does this improve the game and my experience playing EVE?
Right now I'm really angry as I've spent a lot of time and much hard earned ISK setting up a system of planets that was very efficient, not in the sense that it produced the absolute maximum number of P3 or P4 goods, but in the sense that it achieved exactly the goal I had of producing different goods at a set interval of time that was convenient for me.
Now instead of getting a system that makes my life easier and my experience more enjoyable, I get a nightmare. Yes we now have the option of setting our own extraction deadlines which is nice, but now I have to redesign my whole 6 planets (and I feel for those with many alts who had a much greater number of planets), I will probably need to rebuy all my command centers as I will probably need to switch planets or move their locations.
Perfectly well-put, I couldn't have said it any better myself. I'd be happy to sacrifice efficiency and high yield in order to just get barely enough parts to supply my 2 small POS towers in hisec with a run out to pickup the P1 and P2 products every week. Now if I want to produce at all for my POS towers, I have to brave going out to low/null every day in my Occator and move P0 and P1 around and pay excessive Launchpad fees to get those products off-world just to take them to a production planet and convert them into finished product where I once again get dinged on Launchpad fees. Not sure if any of you have checked Launchpad fees and figured them into your costs for doing PI, but when you are moving P0/P1 AND also removing the completed P2/P3, the costs add-up really damn fast. It's a sizable hit to margin for those selling remnant materials, and additional cost to making POS fuel. Not to mention a LOT more time out of my day and a requirement to camp space I normally wouldn't be wasting time in.
^This. wall of text but exactly what is my opinion, too.
I am setting up all planets new because i feel old way is nerfed. Still PI handling is better but why in hell they nerfed it ?
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Minamel
Stardust Heavy Industries
Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2011.01.20 12:02:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Minamel on 20/01/2011 12:04:54
Originally by: Ginga Bishounen
Originally by: Minamel
As statet before this is a good idea but it is not possible in 0.0 due to the high volume of p0.
If i would store half of my p0 ammount for later use, a spacepad would be full after about 30 hours.
So, either:
1) use silos
2) rotate more frequently than 30 hours
or
3) HTFU
No. To rotate every 24 hours would mean 4000 cargo for P1 and P2 goods that is too less for my opinion. The problem is you dont match your 48.000 Units exactly if you get 55.000 for example the Pad gets full even faster. And i would not like to see Mechparts disappear cause of a full launchpad.
If you add another Launchpad or Storage there is not enough grid left to run 4 P2 Lines (48.000 Units extraction per hour 8p1 Fabs 4 P2 Fabs)
And if i go for 3 P2 Lines (36.000 Units per hour 6 p1 Fabs 3 P2 Fabs)it works smoothly with 2 Ecu an 4 Daycycles and without rotation. So then there is no reason to rotate after all.
After all today we found another solution to almoast double the PI income..
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flint dragon
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Posted - 2011.01.20 12:05:00 -
[69]
u all sound like winny bit** either suck it up and learn a new way to do thing or stop and do something else the game about having fun and wasteing hr and to do what r want in it be it a miner pvp pve or anthing else
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Barry Ze'Choppa
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Posted - 2011.01.20 12:15:00 -
[70]
Halp.
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Aphrodite Skripalle
Galactic Defence Consortium
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Posted - 2011.01.20 12:20:00 -
[71]
It REALLY would help if you can use stuff your corp mates made, not going to your pi planets yourself.
It also really would help if you can use stored PI stuff already on planet without getting it up and down. And this would be logical too.
Nobody would send it to space just to use it for cargo space and sell it on market or transfer it to your corp mate.
So best solution would be to be able to transfer to someone on the same planet to make a production chain.
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Zaerui
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Posted - 2011.01.20 13:07:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Kharylien
And if you want to do it the way you have been before, you STILL CAN. You just need to rotate what resource your ECU is extracting.
Why is this apparently so difficult a concept for you people to grasp?
Excellent. Mind gracing us with the knowledge of how to do this resource rotation without spending the extra time you'd need track depletion and hotspot formation? Not all of us can play 24/7, and under the old system I could build a setup and just let it run while I was out in actual reality. I'd know at the end of the cycle, I'd have X goods and I'd have to reset that cycle. Now, I have to babysit PI; I also have to babysit towers, invention, T2 chains, etc. If CCP wanted to make this game more like work and less like a game, they are doing a good job of it.
I've said this in other threads - if you are just making tower fuel, the new system is better. If you are actually making goods for T2, paste, towers/mods, stations/upgrades, etc, you just had your complexity increase while your output decreased. My earlier P4 output was much higher than it is now, primarily because my P1/P2/P3 output was stable (CC5/IC5 here). Now it is not stable, because I can't pull all the resources I need at the rates I need them (and before you say "You're doing it wrong!" - re-read that sentance again. I can't pull ALL the resources I need AT THE RATES I need them.) It is entirely possible that was the goal CCP was trying to achieve; cripple P4 production, or at least slow the rates down dramatically. We'll see.
I'll adapt (and I'm looking forward to increased T2 and tower prices; I think tower fuel will go down while T2 will continue to accelerate in price, and towers/mods might go parabolic). But to say the system is better is just not true - if you look at it from the whole production experience and not just with the limiting eye of tower fuel.
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Shakon
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Posted - 2011.01.20 13:17:00 -
[73]
Only ones i see likeing this new Hauling PI are guys using Macros and Bots to haul. Ah well pays ccp some money i guess to have an extra account to bot with.
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Darth Anonymous
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.20 18:20:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Shakon
Only ones i see likeing this new Hauling PI are guys using Macros and Bots to haul. Ah well pays ccp some money i guess to have an extra account to bot with.
I personally have 9 eve guys on 3 accounts who do PI; doing a milk run every day on 3 characters at a time (click warp, alt-tab; repeat) takes a grand total of about 20 minutes and makes me around 300 million ISK a day.
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Ephraim Glass
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Posted - 2011.01.22 16:54:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Ephraim Glass on 22/01/2011 16:56:18
For those who prefer not to do milk runs, here's what I'm finding about the new system that is advantageous over the old system:
You can still EASILY build up to P3 on a single planet with a minimum of waste. My setup consists of one extractor, three basic factories, and one or two advanced factories. Before, because each extractor could only extract one thing, there was an incentive to build a production chain for each P0 product that you pulled out of the ground. Now, because you can change what the extractor is extracting, you need to build just ONE production chain in total. Each time you switch what the extractor is digging up, you just retool the production chain to handle it. For example:
Assume equal access to Heavy Metals, Base Metals, and Non-CS Crystals
Days 1-10, have the extractor tuned to Heavy Metals and the three basic factories tuned to Toxic Metals.
Days 11-15, have the extractor tuned to Basic Metals and the three basic factories tuned to Reactive Metals.
Days 16-20, have the extractor tuned to Non-CS Crystals and the three basic factories tuned to Chiral Structures.
Half of the time, have the one advanced factory producing Construction Blocks (Toxic and Reactive Metals). The other half of the time, have it producing Consumer Electronics (Toxic Metals and Chiral Structures).
If you're on a planet where you have access to the right materials to build up to P3, then you just add a second advanced factory that uses the two different outputs of your first advanced factory. (Or if you find that your factory is using up the materials faster than you can extract them, use those spare cycles for the P3 build.)
The savings in this setup is that you can more easily reuse your factories now without having to create really complicated networks of links. Get the layout down and then it's just a matter of reprogramming the extractor and the factories every N days.
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