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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.01.24 22:44:00 -
[31]
Will exploding rocks in hisec attract a criminal flag?
What about folks intentionally exploding rocks their friends are mining, just for giggles?
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[Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
NinjaSpud
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Posted - 2011.01.25 00:49:00 -
[32]
Edited by: NinjaSpud on 25/01/2011 00:51:33
 Originally by: Boonaki
It would be cool as **** for roids to blow out and kill everything withing 150km if you don't reduce power to your mining lasers or something.
OK, I'll snag on this one
150km...OMG dude, people will start having alliance battles in roid belts and try to luer each other into range of the deadly rocks....maybe 150km in one dirrection like a solar flare :)
In my oponion, a more 'realistic' approach would be something like a feedback. If the lasers arn't properly maintained during mining, perhaps a gas pocket or some kind of volital erruption would happen, working its way back up the mining laser and hitting the ship that is mining....i'm all for making mining risky.
hell it's practically the only profession in eve where the only way you lose our ship is to gankers. (i suppose some 0.0 rats could pose a problem to you low tanked suckas)
I mean, miners are supposed to be rugged and manley.....Nero was a miner, he destroyed vulcan. Bruce Willice Was an oil miner in Armageddon, he nuked himself to save some pompis prissy snot nose and his girlfriend.
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Admiral Leviathan
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Posted - 2011.01.25 01:03:00 -
[33]
I agree, miners in eve seem too much like wussies in paper-thin ships.
A really cool feature that would make mining more "manly" and ultimately more profitable in the long run is adding some physics where asteroids can suddenly break into true collidable objects that WILL severely damage your ship unless you move out of the way. Of course, keep the very low end ores safer/lower damage for the starters.
This would motivate people to decide on their mining range, perhaps favor some agility mods/tank mods.
I'm sure this would make it much more of a hassle for macro'ers while making mining a bit more fun for those actually playing the game too. Not to mention high sec low-skilled hulk-gank gangs coming to explode your rocks :P
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Shandir
Minmatar
Eve University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.01.25 14:58:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Shandir on 25/01/2011 14:59:32
I don't think changes in mechanics need to accomodate multi-boxers. Work on making the game fun for a single account, and then, maybe, make some allowances for people who insist on running three accounts at once.
The game should not be designed around multi-boxing, and we shouldn't hobble good anti-bot ideas just to keep them happy.
Just like the people who whine that things will get more expensive, the players and the game will adapt to meet those problems that may or may not occur - we need to fix the problem that is both here and very real first.
Edit: I own multiple accounts, I just don't expect CCP to make it easy for me to use them simultaneously. Missions, WHs and PvP certainly aren't designed around multi-boxing.
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NinjaSpud
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Posted - 2011.01.25 17:12:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Shandir
Edited by: Shandir on 25/01/2011 14:59:32
The game should not be designed around multi-boxing, and we shouldn't hobble good anti-bot ideas just to keep them happy.
Just like the people who whine that things will get more expensive, the players and the game will adapt to meet those problems that may or may not occur - we need to fix the problem that is both here and very real first.
Edit: I own multiple accounts, I just don't expect CCP to make it easy for me to use them simultaneously. Missions, WHs and PvP certainly aren't designed around multi-boxing.
Totaly agree, I own a few accounts too, and I would be just has happy only playing one at a time.
I have pvp'd w/ them too...man u gatta be organized and quick but its possible lol.
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Michael McNeil
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Posted - 2011.01.26 06:17:00 -
[36]
while this is a nice idea, if you have the time to do all of these steps, then a macro can be made for it, if you do not have the time, (being attacked by hostiles or rats) then you will never be able to mine.
I do agree a level of complexity would make mining a little more interesting,... but that complexity can become old fast and then no one would be mining as they would be repeating the same steps 10 million times a week while mining.
That said, the test server would be a good place to test this and I would bother myself to install the test server if I were given this ability to play with to see If I am right or wrong.
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Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
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Posted - 2011.01.26 06:43:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Barbara Nichole on 26/01/2011 06:45:53
Quote:
miners in eve seem too much like wussies in paper-thin ships.
Our ships are designed to be weak.. when they get "too powerful" as they have been in the past they get nerfed. This comment again appears to be personal bigotry aimed at miners for no reason. Maybe because no matter what they do they will be easy targets of accusations. (well prove your not a macro!)
Like I said above, fewer miners actually macro than you're suggesting.
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Amorphisis
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Posted - 2011.01.26 07:55:00 -
[38]
My  :
Change it so that belts Have to be scanned down with probes such as grav sites. Have a number of rats guarding the site as you warp in. The rats should have Energy Neuts equipped they could be of drone class so they would be everywhere as apposed to a pirate faction. Also as a added boon drones drop alloys instead of random loot so more minerals for the miners. Have a set amount of Ore in each Grav Site that is available not the variety just the max quantity of each kind. Scale it based on System Sec lvl. Apply a timer to the site as well so after say 6hrs the site will despawn and respawn somewhere in the constellation. Set a cap on the number of belts in the Constellation rather than a number of belts in a system. This would create more competition
Prices for basic minerals would rise. Tis is good thing since most ships are so so so very cheap compared to what they used to cost. A Geddon back in the day was a 75-85 million isk investment a apoc was around 100-110 million. This will help counter inflation. People would cry about the increase in prices but really ****s too cheap as it is. The increase in cost would increase the interest in migrating to null sec where more isk is to be had
Create a way to produce meta 1-4 items. They should only need minerals like T1 gear but the bpc's should be created through invention but it should be cheaper to invent them than T2 prints
Scanner skills don't need to be leet but basic to find the Grav Sites. Change it so that Stripminer 1's use T 1 mining crystals and Stripminer II's use T2/T1 crystals. Crystals should degrade faster they don't cost much to replace anyway as it is. Reduce the cargo capacity of Barges to increase dependence on Orca's for support. If you want to solo the why are you playing a MMO? Interact with people now and then its good for you quit being a boob
The above should make it slightly harder to program a macro to handle it since they'd have to scan down the site kill the rats while countering their neuts with cap boosters which limits an active tank, monitor their number of mining crystals and the amount of ore in the site, all the while depending on orca's or industrials for shipping support
While yes this would limit people who are right out of the gate in eve but maybe thats not such a bad thing. I know when i started i wanted to be a miner as well but it was boring and didn't take much effort there was no challenge. Perhaps pushing people who start into some lvl 1 missions and basic combat to start would be a good thing making something like mining more of a "group" activity and something that you do in addition to PVE rather than a stand alone venture all in of itself. Also the increase in mineral prices would restore its value as a way to make easy isk while having a few drinks with the crew while chatting or doing other things
*it would only take 10-15 mins to scan down the site kill the rats then you can go semi afk while you mine your heart out. Coming back every so often to replace a crystal or drop ore in the transport/can. Having the rats use energy neuts would prevent barges from being permatanked against rats and give early miners in retrievers one more reason to get the almighty hulk asap. Plus the cap booster charges would take up more space in the barges cargo making them even more dependent on support for hauling. Give them an extra mid slot if needed to accommodate the cap booster
With the increase in dependence on support from transports this would lead solo miners to depend on jet cans or anchored cans. This presents an increased opportunity for pvp but only if they choose to go it alone. Though they could still be fairly safe since can flippers would have to scan down miners to flip their cans. In which case the miner can either join a mining corp for support, walk away and take the loss or keep a ship on hand to deal with it on their own.
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Rek Seven
Gallente
Guy Fawkes Trust Fund
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Posted - 2011.01.26 10:55:00 -
[39]
Yep i agree. Either make mining more interactive and skill based or actually build macros into the game... By that i mean you could add some sort of AI model to your ship that will automatically take the mined material from your cargo and put in into a can. LetĘs face it, mining in high sec is boarding and you canĘt blame people for creating a simple macro to automat a mundane task.
But i really do like the idea of mining being skill based, especially if you can potentially earn more the better you get at it.
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Admiral Leviathan
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Posted - 2011.01.26 13:57:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Barbara Nichole
Edited by: Barbara Nichole on 26/01/2011 06:45:53
Quote:
miners in eve seem too much like wussies in paper-thin ships.
Our ships are designed to be weak.. when they get "too powerful" as they have been in the past they get nerfed. This comment again appears to be personal bigotry aimed at miners for no reason. Maybe because no matter what they do they will be easy targets of accusations. (well prove your not a macro!)
Like I said above, fewer miners actually macro than you're suggesting.
Yeah my comment was a bit derogatory but the point I wanted to make is that mining has always been a dangerous job, planting people in an unfriendly environment but for possibly a chance of hitting the jackpot. Mining in EVE really only is dangerous because of ganking. I would love to see see the bigger pockets of asteroids have an added area effect that makes staying in a belt AFK dangerous.
I suggested asteroids breaking up in smaller pieces. It could just have "incoming" asteroids that need to be avoided. Add rogue infested roids that spawn a few cruisers and scramblers if depleted. Make some rare rocks contain radioactive pockets that have a chance of exploding the whole rock for bomb-like dmg (1% chance per cycle)
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NinjaSpud
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Posted - 2011.01.26 14:56:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Rek Seven
But i really do like the idea of mining being skill based, especially if you can potentially earn more the better you get at it.
Exactally. make the ship you fly based on your skill points...but the amount of ore you can yield based on your skill as a pilot...just like pvp.
and keep in mind, I'm not saying all this just to get rid of macros...I think that mining needs to be fixed alltogether. Make it possible for people have a 'eve career' in mining.
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viral insanity
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Posted - 2011.01.26 22:41:00 -
[42]
they solved the macro mining issue with the release of incursion ..sansha rats will destroy anything with cargo space take that you defenceless miners with crappy shields.
1. mining barges will be more expensive
2. mineral prices will be unrealistic
3. ganking will be even more common in high security
....geez the game gets better with every update....
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Headerman
Minmatar
Metanoia.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.01.26 23:01:00 -
[43]
Originally by: NinjaSpud
It is completly unrealistic...*pauses to realize the irony of critiqueing a space ship games 'realistic' value*
Hello,
Bear in mind this is my opinion only.
And my opinion is, you are 100% wrong (sorry). People do not macro mine because it is boring, they macro mine for 2 reasons
1) Easy isk. Anyone can get another account, set it up to macro mine 23/7 and turn over so much profit, they could buy several PLEXs per month.
2) Lots of ore. In 0.0, industry IS the most important thing for alot of people in alot of alliances. They need ships and modules. Now with ALOT of people, they have been playing the game for 2 to 3 years at least, and are wanting bigger ships. That means super caps. And that means they need ore. And LOTS of it. For an Aeon, you need at least a billion units of tritanium. Fastest way to get it? Macro mining.
IMO an alternative to the MASSIVE resources required for super caps should instead be reduced alot. Change the requirements to build a SC to more PI material. More moon goo. More time spend to build the cap components etc.
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Karash Amerius
Sutoka
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Posted - 2011.01.26 23:44:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Karash Amerius on 26/01/2011 23:47:15
Interactive is the key. Make mining a process of making multiple dynamic decisions (like combat), and eliminate macro'ers forever.
Post is on point. Proceed.
Edit: Also, have it where if you are in a NPC corp, you only get to mine and process Veld. That way players can wardec mining groups over nice spots. No one really fights over mining rights outside of nullsec...and lets get real, no one owns nullsec FOR mining rights anymore.
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NinjaSpud
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Posted - 2011.01.27 00:08:00 -
[45]
Edited by: NinjaSpud on 27/01/2011 00:10:10
Originally by: Headerman
Hello,
Bear in mind this is my opinion only.
And my opinion is, you are 100% wrong (sorry). People do not macro mine because it is boring, they macro mine for 2 reasons
1) Easy isk. Anyone can get another account, set it up to macro mine 23/7 and turn over so much profit, they could buy several PLEXs per month.
2) Lots of ore. In 0.0, industry IS the most important thing for alot of people in alot of alliances. They need ships and modules. Now with ALOT of people, they have been playing the game for 2 to 3 years at least, and are wanting bigger ships. That means super caps. And that means they need ore. And LOTS of it. For an Aeon, you need at least a billion units of tritanium. Fastest way to get it? Macro mining.
IMO an alternative to the MASSIVE resources required for super caps should instead be reduced alot. Change the requirements to build a SC to more PI material. More moon goo. More time spend to build the cap components etc.
Well, I can't say I completly disagree with that statement...in an economic based game, if there is a way for free money (more or less) people will exploit it.
Regardless of the WHY, my soultion would still work...it will allow greater yield and more incentive to be a miner.(aka more money in mining)
I opened up a thread a while ago under general discussion, asking frankley "why people even cared" about macro miners. One of best answers I got was from a long term vet who explained that it has made getting those super cap ships easy...and therefore alliance wars are harder. he said back in the day, you could win a war via smaller engagements as you slowly grind down the enemys supplys...now days with bots they can rebuild those supplies in a day or two...so bascially if you dont alpha strike an alliacne w/ alot of macros, they will rebuild....all stratagy is pretty much gone and it turns into a slug fest.
Supercaps are meant to be allaicne toys...aka only able to be buil by a large, collaberative effort. by design i dont think individual people where supposed to be able to mass the mienrals it would take to build one
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Xe'Cara'eos
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Posted - 2011.01.27 11:30:00 -
[46]
I support this idea - hell, I'll support any idea that tries to encourage people to mine together - and that makes things just a little harder for the bots, maybe slowly introduce these changes, say every week, so that each week, the bots need a new script, so they only get in the 7th, and maybe 6th day mining, the rest, they have to do on manual...
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Woodman2
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Posted - 2011.01.27 12:29:00 -
[47]
Why not have bigger groups of NPC rats, with better AI, patrol the belts? Big enough groups with enough firepower that they can't be tanked indefinitely or fought off with a few drones, forcing the miners to move, call in reinforcements or lose their ship? I know a lot of people who mine while they watch movies, read books etc, that is not playing a game, that is more like monitoring it.
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NinjaSpud
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Posted - 2011.01.27 14:39:00 -
[48]
Edited by: NinjaSpud on 27/01/2011 14:39:04
Originally by: Woodman2
Why not have bigger groups of NPC rats, with better AI, patrol the belts? Big enough groups with enough firepower that they can't be tanked indefinitely or fought off with a few drones, forcing the miners to move, call in reinforcements or lose their ship? I know a lot of people who mine while they watch movies, read books etc, that is not playing a game, that is more like monitoring it.
Well, new npc rats have ben suggested, with variouse ideas of how they should work.
the only problem i have with that is newbies...when you're first starting out, and you get a 'new destroyer' because of the 8 turret slots and you finally think "Sweet, i can mine like crazy now"...a group of npc rats would pop a ship like that before they have a chance to really get anywhere.
Also remember, a good battleship fitted with 8 mining lasers II's will be able to tank pretty much any belt rat spawn, and still be able to outmine a retreiver....there's always a work around.
Remember, if you could think of an easy solution to a patch/problem, so can macro programmers.
I love the support people, thank you all 
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Aquila Draco
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Posted - 2011.01.27 15:11:00 -
[49]
Originally by: NinjaSpud
Edited by: NinjaSpud on 27/01/2011 14:39:04
Originally by: Woodman2
Why not have bigger groups of NPC rats, with better AI, patrol the belts? Big enough groups with enough firepower that they can't be tanked indefinitely or fought off with a few drones, forcing the miners to move, call in reinforcements or lose their ship? I know a lot of people who mine while they watch movies, read books etc, that is not playing a game, that is more like monitoring it.
Well, new npc rats have ben suggested, with variouse ideas of how they should work.
the only problem i have with that is newbies...when you're first starting out, and you get a 'new destroyer' because of the 8 turret slots and you finally think "Sweet, i can mine like crazy now"...a group of npc rats would pop a ship like that before they have a chance to really get anywhere.
Also remember, a good battleship fitted with 8 mining lasers II's will be able to tank pretty much any belt rat spawn, and still be able to outmine a retreiver....there's always a work around.
Remember, if you could think of an easy solution to a patch/problem, so can macro programmers.
I love the support people, thank you all
well... for newbies there can be 1.0 and 0.9 systems where they can mine...
weak NPCs but very very small roids... to that you cant use strip miners there...
and about BS mining... well... let them mine with BS... :p
cargo space is so small that 90% of time they will be docking, undocking and warping... becouse Botts in 99% ninja mine...
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NinjaSpud
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Posted - 2011.01.27 22:20:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Aquila Draco
well... let them mine with BS... :p
cargo space is so small that 90% of time they will be docking, undocking and warping... becouse Botts in 99% ninja mine...
 *opens mouth for snazy comback*
.....well what about....I mean if I where....this would force corps to wor...
*starts slow clap* 
see, Aquila's got it...take the advantage from the bots, and give it back to the people...
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Daxine Myth
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Posted - 2011.01.28 01:05:00 -
[51]
I'm baffled by all this ''change that to stop the bot... or tweak this'', just make the eve client scan users systems for programs interacting with the eve client. Like WOW, STEAM, Poker Software, anti virus software, internet music players, internet video players and ... I dunno but why the heck does EVE not?
Is CCP benignly supporting BOTS by refusing to take offensive measures to stop them?
How do they target Real Money Traders? It would be interesting to see the lengths that they go to in stopping them and compare it to their anti (ISK) Bot Activity.
As a new player this is seriously putting me off EVE and it's the same reason my brother and my friend no longer play.
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Daxine Myth
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Posted - 2011.01.28 01:22:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Daxine Myth on 28/01/2011 01:23:18
Have the Eve client report programs interacting with it, if it's a confirmed bot account ban and associated accounts banned. Also a hefty CORP fine for harbouring a botter,
Also banned screen names should be published so we can name and shame the corps and Allinces hiding them.
WOW, STEAM, ONLINE Poker and many other clients use similar detection methods that scan systems why not EVE?
Maybe EVE DEVS are not up to the task? CCP should give Blizzard a telephone maybe they can contract some of their guys to solve problem.
The last parts a TROLL of course but CCP and their guys need a kick up the arse on the bot problem. It was all 'Maximum Attack' against real money traders but they let BOTS slide because it's the players that foot the bill and not CCP.
It's not on it's shabby customer service by CCP the internet is talking and people are not happy.
Sorry for double post but I'm MAD GRRRRRRRRRRRRR!
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Joe McAlt
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Posted - 2011.01.28 03:01:00 -
[53]
If the goal is to simply stop the macros then some sort of protection in the client is the best way to go.
If on the other hand you really want to make it more difficult on the miners then I would agree to making the belts have to be scanned down. Those sites also have the advantage of having more valuable low sec ores, making it worth the effort to locate them.
You could leave the belts in the 1.0 and .9 systems for the noobs, even today rats don't enter those systems. Also those systems should only contain Veld and small amounts of scordite.
Now while I am in a corp and go on at least one large mining op a week I do like to solo mine. I don't make all that much but it is how I like to enjoy the game. One suggestion I read that I did like was mini WH's that only allow one ship in at a time. One could fly in an Orca and locate the mining sites, mine until full then exit. The twist is not knowing where you will come out. It may not be as dangerous as some would like but believe it or not, not every player wants to be shot at all the time.
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Aquila Draco
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Posted - 2011.01.28 16:28:00 -
[54]
Originally by: NinjaSpud
Originally by: Aquila Draco
well... let them mine with BS... :p
cargo space is so small that 90% of time they will be docking, undocking and warping... becouse Botts in 99% ninja mine...
*opens mouth for snazy comback*
.....well what about....I mean if I where....this would force corps to wor...
*starts slow clap*
see, Aquila's got it...take the advantage from the bots, and give it back to the people...
you can close your mouth now...
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Sirius Cassiopeiae
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Posted - 2011.01.29 15:17:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Daxine Myth
Edited by: Daxine Myth on 28/01/2011 01:23:18
Have the Eve client report programs interacting with it, if it's a confirmed bot account ban and associated accounts banned. Also a hefty CORP fine for harbouring a botter,
Also banned screen names should be published so we can name and shame the corps and Allinces hiding them.
WOW, STEAM, ONLINE Poker and many other clients use similar detection methods that scan systems why not EVE?
Maybe EVE DEVS are not up to the task? CCP should give Blizzard a telephone maybe they can contract some of their guys to solve problem.
The last parts a TROLL of course but CCP and their guys need a kick up the arse on the bot problem. It was all 'Maximum Attack' against real money traders but they let BOTS slide because it's the players that foot the bill and not CCP.
It's not on it's shabby customer service by CCP the internet is talking and people are not happy.
Sorry for double post but I'm MAD GRRRRRRRRRRRRR!
+1
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weredlazers
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Posted - 2011.01.30 03:45:00 -
[56]
Well, i see how you say making it more complex would in turn just have the coders make more complex bots, but eaither way, more code means more room for error and bots to fail, so it wont completly remove the problem but could hinder it slightly and plus it would make it a little bit more intresting for the rest of us who would rather stab ourselvs in the eye with a fork then mine.
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Penjual Sayur
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Posted - 2011.01.30 04:19:00 -
[57]
+1 i like the idea. Making mining a mini game itself.
About "sieged" mining, there's orca. Just make a module to enable this no need for new ship.
Also, make hauler really...haul those ores. Strip miners break asteroids, haulers pickup them. i'm just throwing idea here, will probably strain the server.
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SGT FUNYOUN
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.01.30 09:27:00 -
[58]
I am +1 for this. Please make Mining less boring.
Yargh. I be SGT Funyoun. King of the Pirates!!! |
Elanor Vega
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Posted - 2011.01.30 16:03:00 -
[59]
+1
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kongking wang
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.01.30 17:02:00 -
[60]
what would make it good is make roids permanant with no specific makeup or density of ore. create a survey ship for miners and remove ships scanners except for this ship and specific ore ships(orca/rorq).
with no ability to see what a roid is made off this means simple point and mine is now obsolite especially for a macroer as he cant just macro target next roid. the roids are just lifeless rocks.
this new survey vessel is now a must for any miner. without it you cannot mine. you fly to an asteroid belt and scan each individual roid for the right quantities and makup. once found you have a new module which creates 1 script (none tradable). rorq and orca can prduce multiple copys of scripts to aid in operations) these scripts show the exact locations of the roids ore. you then mount your mining vessel and load the script into you new mining computer module. when you fly back to the roid you can now select which ore you want to mine on that asteroid.
now you have to scan/change ships/selct ore, type/density/quantity and roid size. change scripts/crystals. you have to also be sure to target your surveyed roid too.
this has to make macroing alot harder or at the very least make it far less productive.
another idea would be to add heat to mining.like overheating a module but reverse for mining lasers. as soon as you turn on a mining laser it starts to heat up. to avoid over heating you need to constantly monitor it and activate heat disipation modules at the right times so to maintain a peak ballance on laser heat. for a macroer this would be hard as the peak is a visable fluctuating display and not a number or a fixed position.
i believe these changes would make mining alot less macroable and more fun/dificult.
to not affact noobs or bankrupt players too much mining lasers (not strips) can blind mine basic ore only from any roid. this should allow for people to profit and if macroers abuse it then they get poor yields anyway so not a big deal
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