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Don't stop macros, outsmart them

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NinjaSpud	Posted - 2011.01.21 21:48:00 - [1] Hi all, Thanks for reading my thread My goal isn't to stop macro'ers. To behonest the only way to stop them is to install scanning software that would detect them. Thank you to CCP for not violating our privacy this way...unlike those other RPG's coughWOWcough Anyway, anyway, all CPP has to do is give the advantage back to the people, not the macros. To do thi you need to understand mining. And there is a HUGE flaw in mining. It is completly unrealistic...pauses to realize the irony of critiqueing a space ship games 'realistic' value I used to work for an oil drilling company. When I compare drilling a hole in the ground and getting oil (and gas sometimes) to the methods of harvesting minerals in eve...I laugh, and here's why. Here's drilling in EVE: Load yourself in a miner Target roid activate lasers waitàscrew offàread book repeat I mean Come on peopleàdidn't you realize that a bunch of nerds will be playing this game? I think it would be insulting if no one made a macro to do this. HereÆs a brief glimpse of real life drilling: Survey land set up rig activate drill change direction of downhole toolàmany times (drills donÆt just go down u know) GTFO during a blowout (yesàit is possible to OVER DRILL) Get yelled at by the Forman for screwing off..yell at him for tearing your book in half WOOT you struck oilànow we gatta get it out of there Remove rig, set up extractor transport oil to refinery Get stupid hammered drunk the one day that month you actually have off. The point is, macros are so dominating right now because mining isnÆt interactive enough. Imagine trying to program a macro for pvpàit canÆt be done. Why? You never know what your enemy will do or bring. You need to adapt to it, you need to work togetherà.granted you could pvp alone, but not the scale of fleets. Mining is a huge part of eveàif mining stopped eve would stop. So why is it sooooooooo boring and easy to do? IÆm not dissing hard core miners, power to yaà.the other 95% of us would rather do more than stare at a rock. So, hereÆs my idea:
rock crawlermne	Posted - 2011.01.21 21:50:00 - [2] Edited by: rock crawlermne on 21/01/2011 21:51:16 Edited by: rock crawlermne on 21/01/2011 21:50:45 reserved ...damnit i posted w/ my alt o well lol FYI people rock crawlerMNE is NinjaSpud....sorry bout that
NinjaSpud	Posted - 2011.01.21 22:00:00 - [3] reserved..as ninjaspud
Taisuke Black	Posted - 2011.01.22 01:05:00 - [4] Edited by: Taisuke Black on 22/01/2011 01:06:52 I like your thinking. I just suggested a more complex rat-spawning mechanic to kill macro miners, plus allow combat ships to escort miners in dangerous space and still make money. You seem to understand the system better than I do, could you take a look and tell me what you think? linkage EDIT: also, I agree that miners should be able to get better gang bonuses, as long as this requires the commander to be on grid with the rest of the operation. As for more complex mining...well, they could give more roids strange quirks like mercoxit that explodes
Mobins	Posted - 2011.01.22 01:13:00 - [5] +2, I like your idea!
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2011.01.22 02:09:00 - [6] Quote: Survey land set up rig activate drill change direction of downhole toolàmany times (drills donÆt just go down u know) GTFO during a blowout (yesàit is possible to OVER DRILL) Get yelled at by the Forman for screwing off..yell at him for tearing your book in half Twisted Evil WOOT you struck oilànow we gatta get it out of there Remove rig, set up extractor transport oil to refinery Get stupid hammered drunk the one day that month you actually have off. Interesting.. but we're not drilling.. there is a reason the heavy lasers are called "strip miners"; they break everything up and tractor it in through a vacuum inversion and containment field around the cutting laser beam and then move it into the hold via on board collectors. Quote: The point is, macros are so dominating right now because mining isnÆt interactive enough. No, the appearance that a miner is macroing is dominating based on the personal bias of the observer and the fact that that even non-macro miners are doing the same task repeatedly, and it's to their advantage to do is in a streamlined and repetitious manner...for as long as they have time or can stand it. Quote: Imagine trying to program a macro for pvpàit canÆt be done. While this is true on the surface it may not be for long. You did, of course, know there are mission running macros out there for sale right? How long until we see a macro that can do a fair job against a player? I submit that won't be long.
Ghostmane	Posted - 2011.01.22 04:44:00 - [7] Showing support for a great suggestion. +1
Lance Trafalgar Caldari Knights of Trafalgar	Posted - 2011.01.22 11:56:00 - [8] I love the interactive nature that you have for mining. Perhaps there should only one type of Asteroid sure you could use strip miners and deplete the whole thing however they wouldn't be as effective as scanning the rock down and using lasers with crystals to only extract that type of ore in the asteroid. So say Asteroid 2003A12 in the belt your in is made up of 63% Pyrox ore and 37% Veld using a strip miner would only get you at max 1/2 of the asteroid's minerals and would deplete the asteroid for a week before res pawning. Where using a focused mining laser to only extract the Pyrox would mean you get 100% of the ore and with a small chance that while mining some other ore types could be found as you go deeper into the rock. You would also have to change out lasers for that new vein or to extract the Veld. Strip miners also due to their destructive forces should have a chance of igniting a methane pocket in the asteroid. The resulting explosion could either just destroy the rock you were mining with your shields taking the impact or say in space with less security it could cause massive damage to your ship or even the destruction of your ship. Specialized mining lasers would have a smaller chance of this happening but could reduce this risk by investing in that specialized ore skills ie Veldspar Processing we already have. Ive also heard CCP talking about mining the rings on some of the planets perhaps the roids there could be a mixture of ice,gas and ore so you would really have to be well trained to go in there and get the maximum bennifit. All in all I am very much in favor of a system that requires more interaction even if it means a little risk or a lot of risk for the current system.
NinjaSpud	Posted - 2011.01.23 02:17:00 - [9] Originally by: Barbara Nichole Quote: Interesting.. but we're not drilling.. there is a reason the heavy lasers are called "strip miners"; they break everything up and tractor it in through a vacuum inversion and containment field around the cutting laser beam and then move it into the hold via on board collectors. Fare enough..I suppose I should have been clearer in the fact that a rig cannot be run by one person and has much more then just point and shoot...I want CCP to create a more interactive form of mining, so those who are serious about it can take the advantage back from the macro'ers. Quote: No, the appearance that a miner is macroing is dominating based on the personal bias of the observer and the fact that that even non-macro miners are doing the same task repeatedly, and it's to their advantage to do is in a streamlined and repetitious manner...for as long as they have time or can stand it. To be honest, I dind't come to the conclusion that macro'ers where a problem...i honestly dont care...mining is boring to me. read this and you'll see that i went on an 'expedition' on finding out why people hated macros.
Varve Caldari Oredustries	Posted - 2011.01.23 04:01:00 - [10] Originally by: rock crawlermne Why not have multiple kinds of lasers? Some that cut the roid apart, then the harvesters that suck the debris into your cargo hold? "But Spud, whats to stop macros\pirats from coming in and taking your cut roid while you are changing out lasers to haul it in?" Simple, same reason why jetcan mining is semi secureàanyone caught taking your cut roids can be attacked. (I could just see a macro coming in, mining the same roid u rà.sucking in both yours and his minerals and getting blown up by YOUàthink about it) Doing this will add a new lvl of interaction, as well as keep those pesky macroers from rolling over your rocks. So whats to stop me from cutting all the asteroids in my system and not mining them, therefore preventing anyone else from mining anything in my system? And even if they reform after a while, one account moves around continually cutting while the second mines. The problem being escelated with bigger corps.
NinjaSpud	Posted - 2011.01.23 04:11:00 - [11] Originally by: Varve Originally by: rock crawlermne Why not have multiple kinds of lasers? Some that cut the roid apart, then the harvesters that suck the debris into your cargo hold? "But Spud, whats to stop macros\pirats from coming in and taking your cut roid while you are changing out lasers to haul it in?" Simple, same reason why jetcan mining is semi secureàanyone caught taking your cut roids can be attacked. (I could just see a macro coming in, mining the same roid u rà.sucking in both yours and his minerals and getting blown up by YOUàthink about it) Doing this will add a new lvl of interaction, as well as keep those pesky macroers from rolling over your rocks. So whats to stop me from cutting all the asteroids in my system and not mining them, therefore preventing anyone else from mining anything in my system? And even if they reform after a while, one account moves around continually cutting while the second mines. The problem being escelated with bigger corps. I suppose that is a good point. The main idea that I'm trying to inspire here is a more interactive mining system. maybe keep the cutting lasers available only to the 'sieged' drills.
Suljak	Posted - 2011.01.23 07:02:00 - [12] Hrm, it would seem that people are forgetting one very important thing: As technology advances, the technology to bypass that technology also advances. I either heard it on a movie or read it in a book but it makes sense. If CCP makes mining more difficult, then the coders who write the macro bots will just make them more complex. I've seen WoW bots that quite literally do everything with the exception of log in and make the toon. You log in, start the bot, it'll level you from 1 to 85 either by questing, farming ore/herb (takes forever I'd imagine), dungeon grinding or by pvp. And the bot is coded so well that you can't tell the difference unless it gets stuck. I don't condone the use of said programs as it takes away from playing the game...Well...Really just defeats the purpose. Anyhow, I believe my point has been made. CCP makes something more complex, then so do the hackers.
NinjaSpud	Posted - 2011.01.24 06:27:00 - [13] Originally by: Suljak Hrm, it would seem that people are forgetting one very important thing: As technology advances, the technology to bypass that technology also advances. I either heard it on a movie or read it in a book but it makes sense. If CCP makes mining more difficult, then the coders who write the macro bots will just make them more complex. I've seen WoW bots that quite literally do everything with the exception of log in and make the toon. You log in, start the bot, it'll level you from 1 to 85 either by questing, farming ore/herb (takes forever I'd imagine), dungeon grinding or by pvp. And the bot is coded so well that you can't tell the difference unless it gets stuck. I don't condone the use of said programs as it takes away from playing the game...Well...Really just defeats the purpose. Anyhow, I believe my point has been made. CCP makes something more complex, then so do the hackers. well, escalation is always in issue....I doubt we'll ever be rid of macro'ers....but maybe we could strive towards giving the advantage back to the players.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2011.01.24 06:53:00 - [14] Originally by: NinjaSpud HereÆs a brief glimpse of real life drilling: Survey land set up rig activate drill change direction of downhole toolàmany times (drills donÆt just go down u know) GTFO during a blowout (yesàit is possible to OVER DRILL) Get yelled at by the Forman for screwing off..yell at him for tearing your book in half WOOT you struck oilànow we gatta get it out of there Remove rig, set up extractor transport oil to refinery Get stupid hammered drunk the one day that month you actually have off. Here is a post describing an alternate design for mining in EVE. It imcludes the salient points of effort to discover, setting up for extraction, returning to base with goods. Falls down on the getting hammered part, but that is addressed by Incarna. -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel]
Gemberslaafje Vivicide	Posted - 2011.01.24 09:19:00 - [15] +1 for the idea, I would love mining to be more interactive. I do think it needs more thought, but I also think it would be the way forward. Sure, it does not kill macroers, but let's make it harder for them and more fun for real players to mine. --- Creator of the Eve Character Appraiser/Assembler: http://gemblog.nl/skill/ http://gemblog.nl/assembler/ Originally by: De'Veldrin Welcome to the ****ing sandbox
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.01.24 10:35:00 - [16] there are so many smart things written on this forum about this subject... this one is high ranked... :) i hope that CCP reads posts on this subject... becouse if they read this all its very easy to combine all this things in one ultimate solution that will fix this part of the game and take care of macros problem... my support +1 "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes"
NinjaSpud	Posted - 2011.01.24 14:41:00 - [17] Originally by: Crucis Cassiopeiae there are so many smart things written on this forum about this subject... this one is high ranked... :) i hope that CCP reads posts on this subject... becouse if they read this all its very easy to combine all this things in one ultimate solution that will fix this part of the game and take care of macros problem... my support +1 WOOT people love me hahahah Seriously though, thank you all for the support and the great ideas...go tell CCP to hire me on as a game developer lol O and the person who suggested methan pockets the rock that explode....brilliant, you caught on to my hint about over drilling. Here's another thought, guys: FACT low sec mining isn't worth the risk in the reward. FACT: dreads cannot enter high sec, and these new mining vessels I suggest would behave similar to dreads. Could this be a start in the effort to make low sec mining ops a possibility? Food for thought
Jokerface666 Amarr The Warp Squad	Posted - 2011.01.24 14:50:00 - [18] Me likey, +10 Br, Joker
Eclorc	Posted - 2011.01.24 16:03:00 - [19] +1 especially about the veins in rocks bit, provided some way can be found to obfuscate the data that would screw up an exe-reading bot program, else you're back to square one on macro deterrant value. One thing I'd like to add to your thoughts, is something that came up one day while doing PI and sitting in an orca with mates in hulks. Wouldn't it be cool if the lasers in hulks could be slaved partially to orca, and the "pins" like in PI could be used as pins to follow the high-value veins? It would be nice to have a job in the orca thats more than a simple jetcan. Orca scan res could be better than a solo hulk, therefore encouraging grouping up too in a corp/fleet. Perhaps the rorq could function in a similar way too.
Derth Ramir	Posted - 2011.01.24 16:19:00 - [20] +1 anyone who disagree's is a bot.
TeeserTrull	Posted - 2011.01.24 17:06:00 - [21] I give this a 1+ and support cargo bomb and mining in low sec!! Miners on the mach! taking the universe back from the pirates!!
Mr LaForge	Posted - 2011.01.24 17:13:00 - [22] Thats fine for mining but what would u do or say about all the minerals that come from refined drone alloys? Or mission runners refining loot for minerals?
betoli	Posted - 2011.01.24 17:18:00 - [23] Originally by: Mr LaForge Thats fine for mining but what would u do or say about all the minerals that come from refined drone alloys? Or mission runners refining loot for minerals? nerf it. don't think, just nerf. :-)
Delnadres Courthelia	Posted - 2011.01.24 17:27:00 - [24] Edited by: Delnadres Courthelia on 24/01/2011 17:28:53 If mining becomes more interactive, what happens to people who use multiple accounts to mine? Suddenely, they can't keep up. If you're going to make it more interactive, allow remote miner linking, so that the mining foreman can control the mining ships in the fleet. I'm all for making mining less boring, +1 to that, but keep the multi-account users in mind when you do. Also, I enjoy reading a book or even checking my PI while mining. Although I kinda like that idea about asteroids having the different minerals in them and you have to do something in order to extract the minerals you want
NinjaSpud	Posted - 2011.01.24 17:29:00 - [25] Originally by: Mr LaForge Thats fine for mining but what would u do or say about all the minerals that come from refined drone alloys? Or mission runners refining loot for minerals? I would venture to say that's not as big as a problem as you might think....confession time. I'm a carebear...most of the time. In my time off of supporting my corp....sigh I ninja salvage. I know, I know...I'm that guy. I have NEVER encountered a mission macro...I know this becuase I get cussed at alot for what I do. I've never met a mission runner that's been neutral to my being there.
NinjaSpud	Posted - 2011.01.24 17:45:00 - [26] Originally by: Delnadres Courthelia Edited by: Delnadres Courthelia on 24/01/2011 17:28:53 If mining becomes more interactive, what happens to people who use multiple accounts to mine? Suddenely, they can't keep up. If you're going to make it more interactive, allow remote miner linking, so that the mining foreman can control the mining ships in the fleet. I'm all for making mining less boring, +1 to that, but keep the multi-account users in mind when you do. Also, I enjoy reading a book or even checking my PI while mining. Although I kinda like that idea about asteroids having the different minerals in them and you have to do something in order to extract the minerals you want Well, just assuming my idea gets passsed....or even recognized by ccp it would bring about change, and change can be painful. With over 1/4 million people playing the game, finding a solution that makes them all happy would be difficult. But, you do bring up a solid point, I suppose the challenge is trying not step on the toes of group A, just to satisfy group B....balance is the key... I'm not above making regular mining semi-automated, while keeping the stip mining, and thus greater yield more interactive. Have the thought in head "If you want to casualy mine, and read a book/check PI then your income will be casual. If you want to seriously mine, your income should be serious." I guranentee you're not checking your PI while out on a roam. Make your income reflect your level of determination. Much like the kill board reflects your determination of pvp. Casual pvp'rs will roam low sec looking to get rid of some pirats on a boring saturday....seriouse pvp'rs will go to null sec and take out entire corperations....as was said in the "Sandbox video"...the choice is yours!
Jaik7	Posted - 2011.01.24 18:43:00 - [27] do this allow all old style mining, but drop yeild(i am a miner and i'm asking for lower yeild, i never thought i'd see the day) make the new style mining increase from the standard hulk yeild. make it possible for me to explode a rock in a can flipper's face. give low skill roles to newbies. I think that mining needs a new feel very much. i think i would like at times to read a book while listening to the strip miners, but i also would like a corp activity that is more interactive. when i "help" my corp's pro mission runners, i feel like i'm not contributing and only splitting the pot. let this new mining bit be a way that anyone could grab a bantam and contribute to the whole.
NinjaSpud	Posted - 2011.01.24 20:16:00 - [28] Originally by: Jaik7 do this allow all old style mining, but drop yeild(i am a miner and i'm asking for lower yeild, i never thought i'd see the day) make the new style mining increase from the standard hulk yeild. make it possible for me to explode a rock in a can flipper's face. give low skill roles to newbies. I think that mining needs a new feel very much. i think i would like at times to read a book while listening to the strip miners, but i also would like a corp activity that is more interactive. when i "help" my corp's pro mission runners, i feel like i'm not contributing and only splitting the pot. let this new mining bit be a way that anyone could grab a bantam and contribute to the whole. I Love it... any newb in a correctaly fit T1 Frig can help a gank...be bait, be tackle...spam the enemy with convo requets, whatever. Same could be said about mission runners (to an extent)...warp scraming rat frigs make any mission runner, vet and new, nervouse and need to be pop'd. allowing even the little guys to get in on some of the big mining ops would be schawwweeeet People might even start fighitng over new recruits....
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation Hounds of Anarchy	Posted - 2011.01.24 21:34:00 - [29] I like the idea simply because it tries to improve mining. However, if you have ever tried to mine a belt with 10 or more players, then you will find that it is a bit more work than just locking asteroids and activating the lasers. One needs to avoid locking the same asteroids as others, the more you are the faster you need to move, the Orca needs to be in range for one to unload the ore directly into its hangars, a hauler needs to empty it on time, mining drones need to be controlled, pirates fought, can flippers need to be watched, and ganks anticipated. In war times can an entire mining op turn into a PvP op and one needs to have prepared for it, ... If you do it right, then there is actually quite a lot of work involved. --
Boonaki Caldari Focused Annihilation Detrimental Imperative	Posted - 2011.01.24 21:48:00 - [30] It would be cool as **** for roids to blow out and kill everything withing 150km if you don't reduce power to your mining lasers or something.

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