Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Spugg Galdon
|
Posted - 2011.01.24 11:59:00 -
[1]
Now before we start, I'd like to say that I like ECM drones. I think that they work perfect and do not wish to see any change in how these drones are balanced. I will make references to the power of ECM drones vs other E-War drones though
However, Sensor Damping, Tracking Disrupting, Energy Neutralising and Target Painting drones always appear completely underpowered when compared with the dreaded ECM drone.
Now just for comparison: 5x Hornet EC-300's are just as effective as 1x Racial ECM fitted on an un-bonused hull with max skills no implants.
Pros of drones: ECM drones do not require capacitor ECM drones effectiveness is not skill based
Cons of drones: Can't be overloaded Can be destroyed
Now when it comes to the other E-War drones we see some very large differences in performance vs ECM drones.
Sensor Damp drones: Because these drones can't be scripted to either range damp or scan res damp they are already suffering heavily in performance. The next issue is that stacking penalties are so harsh that using more than 3 of these drones is pointless. Also, only Ogre SD-900's are powerful enough to consider using and with how underwhelming sensor damps are in general, even when using them on hulls with a bonus, you would never use these drones.
Tracking Disruption drones: These drones also suffer from the same problems as sensor damp drones although the strength of the drones is good enough the stacking penalties are crippling and using more than 3 on a single target is pointless.
Target Painting drones Useful when using torps but again, stacking penalties and small bonuses cripple these drones.
Energy Neutralising drones: These drones should be fantastic but sadly the amount of cap drain from these drones is so small it's pointless. You might say that this is balanced because it costs you no cap to use these drones but when you look at the figures which are: 11 EV-300's : 1 T2/Meta 4 Small neut 18 EV-600's : 1 T2/Meta 4 Medium neut 24 EV-900's : 1 T2/Meta 4 Large neut
When you compare that to the fact that 5 small ECM drones are as effective as a single RACIAL ECM module on an unbonused hull EV drones are a complete waste of time. One positive thing though, neuting doesn't get stacking penalties so that's a good thing.
I would like it if the other E-War drones were brought into line with the ECM drones.
1st Would removing stacking penalties from the drones be a really bad thing? 2nd Being able to R-Click and "Set Mode" for SD and TD drones be a viable option? 3rd By how much should the E-War strength of the drones be buffed to make them effective but not overpowered?
|
Marlona Sky
Global Criminal Countdown
|
Posted - 2011.01.24 12:10:00 -
[2]
They should just remove all EW drones till they figure out a replacement for ecm.
|
Spugg Galdon
|
Posted - 2011.01.24 13:02:00 -
[3]
There is nothing wrong with ECM. It works perfectly. Yes it is annoying but it works and you can counter it.
|
Aineko Macx
|
Posted - 2011.01.24 13:39:00 -
[4]
I agree. As for how much the non-ecm ewar drones should be buffed, i'd say make them 50% more effective and halve the stacking penalty. For balance, neut drones should probably get this new stacking penalty applied then. ________________________ CCP: Where fixing bugs is a luxury, not an obligation. |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
|
Posted - 2011.01.24 13:43:00 -
[5]
EV-xxx drones are actually pretty good, just situational in the extreme and only really work in conjunction with an actual neut. SD-/SD-/TP-/SW-xxx on the other hand have no use whatsoever, mainly due to stacking penalty system. Removing stacking is not an option though as it will make swarms stupidly powerful.
Increase the effect of the drones at least one whole size (ie. Lights get effect of current mediums). Increase their orbit speeds and hitpoints to give them more survivability. Double (at least) their activation ranges so that a single MWD burst is longer enough to escape the effect entirely.
EC-xxx should be changed to being lock-breakers instead of full cycle jammers. Considering overall locking speed that would make them pretty fairly balanced. Cycle time might need to be decreased to 15s or so .. need to test in 'cruiser down' environment where they are currently OP.
Originally by: Spugg Galdon There is nothing wrong with ECM. It works perfectly. Yes it is annoying but it works and you can counter it.
Do you really want to open that particular can? Last thread that did so ran way off topic with page numbers in the double digits
|
Clumsy Pilot
|
Posted - 2011.01.24 15:44:00 -
[6]
sensor dampening drones are the most worthless drones i have ever seen in my life. Fix. Needed.
|
CarnegieSteel
|
Posted - 2011.01.24 16:22:00 -
[7]
Have all the drones from a single ship count as a single module for the purposes of stacking.
That is, all 5 sensor dampers from 1 ship add with full strength, but 10 drones from 2 ships has a stacking penalty. This stops huge swarms from being stupid powerful, but makes it so that you can actually use them.
The actual numbers of the non-ECM drones could probably use a boost, in addition to the stacking modification I mentioned. In particular, the sensor damper and target painter drones need the biggest boost I think.
|
Spugg Galdon
|
Posted - 2011.01.24 16:39:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Spugg Galdon on 24/01/2011 16:39:31
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Spugg Galdon There is nothing wrong with ECM. It works perfectly. Yes it is annoying but it works and you can counter it.
Do you really want to open that particular can? Last thread that did so ran way off topic with page numbers in the double digits
Well, it is my opinion and I could be very wrong but I do feel they work well. I do also like the idea that ECM drones become lock breakers (not heart breakers, see what I did there?)
At least a reduction in stacking penalties for SD/TD/TP drones so that they are effective in a "wing" but not in a swarm.
EV drones maybe don't need stacking penalties but to just not be as strong as the shipboard modules themselves. Maybe 50% stronger than current drone neut strength?
The biggest problem with SD is that even shipboard SD modules are a little underpowered. The whole SD E-War needs a little look into.
What do people think about having a "Mode" selection (a bit like scripting) for SD/TD drones?
|
Dlardrageth
ANZAC ALLIANCE IT Alliance
|
Posted - 2011.01.24 19:40:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Dlardrageth on 24/01/2011 19:41:14 +1
Non-ECM EW drones have been broken almost as long as rockets used to be...
|
Herping yourDerp
|
Posted - 2011.01.24 19:41:00 -
[10]
i think the ECM drones should be nerfed to the ammount of 5 drones = a multi jammer not racial.
|
|
Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation Hounds of Anarchy
|
Posted - 2011.01.24 19:47:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Whitehound on 24/01/2011 19:47:56 With all the suggestions regarding blasters, railguns and now e-war drones am I glad that I am a Gallente pilot. My uber-uber ships will be feared in all of EVE soon.
Behold the sarcasm.
Not supported ... oh wait, it is only a discussion. --
|
Spugg Galdon
|
Posted - 2011.01.25 13:32:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 24/01/2011 19:47:56 With all the suggestions regarding blasters, railguns and now e-war drones am I glad that I am a Gallente pilot. My uber-uber ships will be feared in all of EVE soon.
Behold the sarcasm.
Not supported ... oh wait, it is only a discussion.
All races can use drones though,yeah some more than others, but I would love to see more variety on the field. Now its a case of either ECM drones or combat drones
|
Bean Giant
|
Posted - 2011.01.25 17:29:00 -
[13]
Maybe make drone boat bonuses apply to ewar drones as well, IE the dmg bonus would also apply to the effectiveness of ewar.
|
CarnegieSteel
|
Posted - 2011.01.26 05:22:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Bean Giant Maybe make drone boat bonuses apply to ewar drones as well, IE the dmg bonus would also apply to the effectiveness of ewar.
That....doesnt fix anything. It just makes drone boats also the best ECM platforms.
|
Serra Polaris
|
Posted - 2011.01.26 06:05:00 -
[15]
While the non-ECM drones are underpowered, there is a problem with all ewar drones in general. Dps is very important in both pve and pvp, and by using them you lose dps. In return you get extra midslots to use, but there are no dps modules that go in midslots, except for things that affect effective dps like tracking computers and target painters. Even if they were buffed I have a hard time believing people would actually use them, especially since they can be destroyed. The only time I've seen ECM drones used consistently is for things like the Pilgrim, and again they are only used when you need to gtfo and when dps is not a concern.
|
Liang Nuren
|
Posted - 2011.01.26 06:45:00 -
[16]
Originally by: CarnegieSteel Have all the drones from a single ship count as a single module for the purposes of stacking.
That is, all 5 sensor dampers from 1 ship add with full strength, but 10 drones from 2 ships has a stacking penalty. This stops huge swarms from being stupid powerful, but makes it so that you can actually use them.
The actual numbers of the non-ECM drones could probably use a boost, in addition to the stacking modification I mentioned. In particular, the sensor damper and target painter drones need the biggest boost I think.
Now that's a boost I could get behind!
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
|
PC l0adletter
|
Posted - 2011.01.26 06:52:00 -
[17]
Excellent points.
I think this discussion is well on its way to shaping into a proposal that can be supported by 3 consecutive CSMs over two years during which time it will be completely ignored by CCP.
How can we incorporate this into Incarna? Could CCP sell players tatoos of appropriately-balanced ewar drones for microplex? I think you should explore this angle more.
|
Ophelia Ursus
|
Posted - 2011.01.26 07:45:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Spugg Galdon There is nothing wrong with ECM. It works perfectly. Yes it is annoying but it works and you can counter it.
Chance-based stunlock is an intrinsically horrible and unbalanced idea, and the guy who first proposed it should have been fired on the spot. Signature removed. |
Spugg Galdon
|
Posted - 2011.01.27 10:01:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Ophelia Ursus
Chance-based stunlock is an intrinsically horrible and unbalanced idea, and the guy who first proposed it should have been fired on the spot.
Like I said. It is very annoying but it works how ECM is supposed to work. Gone are the days of olde where you were ALWAYS perma jammed from 90 to 150 km away. So I welcome this chance based system as I can improve my chances of not being jammed by ECCM'ing up and have a command ship boosting sensor integrity.
But that's ECM and I'd like to mainly focus on the other EW drones as these drones are clearly underpowered. Having powerful SD/TD/EV/TP drones as well as the feared EC drones would really mix things up. Simply nerfing EC drones isn't the answer as everyone will just forget about EW drones and use combat drones. Which is dull as I want variety. I want to think "Crap! He's using TD drones, I can't hit anything! Wasn't expecting that!" or another generic "oh dear" line with other EW drones.
|
Lady Shaniqua
Minmatar Kenssy Fried Chicken Kru
|
Posted - 2011.01.27 16:50:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Marlona Sky They should just remove all EW drones till they figure out a replacement for ecm.
this
|
|
Spugg Galdon
|
Posted - 2011.03.08 12:22:00 -
[21]
bump
|
FlameGlow
Gypsy Band
|
Posted - 2011.03.08 13:31:00 -
[22]
Edited by: FlameGlow on 08/03/2011 13:35:35
Originally by: Spugg Galdon
5x Hornet EC-300's are just as effective as 1x Racial ECM fitted on an un-bonused hull with max skills no implants.
You repeat that as if it it any proof of superior efficiency, but actually ECM is pretty crappy on unbonused ships by design. ECM was nerfed and ECM bonused ships got much greter percentage bonus then all other ewar ships just to get ECM to work. The only thing wrong with the other ewar drones is being hit by stacking penalty(and web drones are just too slow), lift the stacking penalty and all those would probably be useful |
Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided
|
Posted - 2011.03.08 19:25:00 -
[23]
If you take my EC-900s away, don't forget to take the ECM ships I carry them for away too.
Yes, that's right. My ECM drones are defensive. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
|
Posted - 2011.03.08 20:54:00 -
[24]
Edited by: King Rothgar on 08/03/2011 20:53:44 I don't really have a problem with ECM drones, they aren't that hard to deal with. But the other EW drones are indeed very weak. I occasionally use the web/TP drones on my maelstrom to help with tracking while solo and they are effective in that situation. But they could stand to be buffed substantially regardless. So this is what I think should be done:
1) Increase web drone effect to 40% from 20%, it was 30% back in the 90% webber days and everyone *****ed about them being pathetic back then too. Stacking penalties would still apply.
2) Boost neut drones so 5 of them is equal to a single t2 mod of their size (ie 5x EV-900 = one t2 heavy neut). It's balanced because you're dumping 300 dps from berserker II's for a single capless heavy neut.
3) Boost TP drones so a single TP-900 = 40% effect, TP-600 = 30%, TP-300 = 20%. Stacking penalties apply.
4) Split sensor damp drones into two types: scan res and targeting range. Increase SD-900 effect to 40%, SD-600 to 30%, SD-300 to 20%. Stacking penalties apply.
5) Split TD drones into tracking speed and gun range. Increase TD-900 effect to 40%, TD-600 to 30%, TD-300 to 20%. Stacking penalties still apply.
Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig. |
Ephemeron
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
|
Posted - 2011.03.08 21:28:00 -
[25]
Personally I think small ECM drones shouldn't exist
otherwise it's same situation as with Multispecs before they got nerfed - every ship with extra mid slot (drone bay) fits one
|
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
|
Posted - 2011.03.09 10:51:00 -
[26]
What if: Requirements for small/medium smartbombs was reduced by 50-66%?
Sort of solves the ecm drone problem for the sub-bc hulls by providing a usable counter. Allows CCP to ignore the issues with ECM for another cycle so should be a slam dunk, no?
|
Manalapan
Dynasty Banking General Tso's Alliance
|
Posted - 2011.03.10 00:38:00 -
[27]
The EW drones do need an overhaul, but I think all the proposed numbers are way over kill. I think slight modifications to effectiveness maybe 8-10% increases and primarily a drone optimal range increase would be most beneficial.
I will have to break down numbers to come up with something I think would really work but either way they do need to be looked at.
Balance EVE and Support Manalapan ------ Support Manalapan for CSM!
Fixing EVE The Player That Makes EVE Stronger
Manalapan Campaign |
Spugg Galdon
|
Posted - 2011.03.10 10:40:00 -
[28]
I am starting to agree with most people in this thread that removing stacking penalties would be a bad move however I do believe that they should be reduced so that the 4th and 5th EW drones are not (essentially) ineffective.
If EV drones are buffed up so that 5x EV-300 = 1 small neut and 5x Ev-600 = 1 med etc there will need to be a stacking penalty to prevent swarming.
I do believe a "R-Click. Set mode" or "R-Click. Scan Res/Targeting Range Damp target" options are a better choice for SD drones than two different types of these drones. Sensor damping needs to be looked at in general.
What if there were T2 versions of electronic warfare drones? (obviously ECM drones would have to be nerfed and the current version would be T2 strength)
|
Timathai
Populist Manufacturing and Exploration
|
Posted - 2011.03.13 09:37:00 -
[29]
To sum up the best ideas I have seen: Using a drone group as the indicator for when to apply a stacking effect, rather then each individual drone.
matching the effectiveness of the drone sizes to their counterparts in a module sense. Small ECM drones should be balanced to reflect this, as there is no"small" ecm mod.
The reasoning behind both of these is the amount of DPS lost when you dont use Combat drones. On avaerage even a flight of small drones equates to about 80 DPS, sometimes more. The stacking protocol by group makes swarming a lot less effective(I would even support a larger stack penalty for each additional group than is given to mods)and would make up for that substantial DPS loss, if done in conjuction with a balanceing to equivalent modules.
EW as a whole has recieved a large boot to the head; Multispecs are near worthless even on bonused ships. I understand the reasoning, but I think there is a general cry for alarm, as I have seen a large decrease in the number of ECM ships in fleets and small gangs. DPS is the new battlecry, as ECM is not effective enough at this point to warrant droping DPS ships for it. Sensor dampeners are strictly for snipers now, as it should be, but even snipers dont use them. Tracking disruptors are wholly ignored, even when scripted. Sorry to move on to the ECM track there.
Drones NEED the two changes I opened with, and thanks to those who thought of them, when stated, it seems to me that there is no other solution that could be better, or keep in game balance as well. Give a man a fish, and he has one good meal. Teach a man to fish and he has a way to **** off his wife every Sunday. |
|
|
|
Pages: [1] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |