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space bear
Gallente Farbotz
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Posted - 2011.01.31 13:32:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Umega
(...) What a ridiculously broad question. I don't have the slighest idea what ships nor the pilots behind them. Go ahead and conjure up some twisted scenario that's bent to what you want to have happen in this pointless arguement you're trying to produce.. and I'll make own plausible scenarios where I am right. Whoopy.
(...)
You're quite right, I should have better formulate the question here "Which of the blaster boat or the A/C boat give to its pilot the more/better tools to do its job ?"
Or... Let us do play some mind game here, just for fun
Suppose you have been choosen by your alliance to be the champion that will fight the best PvPer of another good PvP alliance for the control of a selected region. Rules are quite simple: The encounter will take place in a given system. Authorized ships are cruiser and above size hull, no faction, no capital. What ship will you field ? A blaster boat, really ?
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits.
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Posted - 2011.01.31 13:55:00 -
[92]
Originally by: space bear
Originally by: Umega
(...) What a ridiculously broad question. I don't have the slighest idea what ships nor the pilots behind them. Go ahead and conjure up some twisted scenario that's bent to what you want to have happen in this pointless arguement you're trying to produce.. and I'll make own plausible scenarios where I am right. Whoopy.
(...)
You're quite right, I should have better formulate the question here "Which of the blaster boat or the A/C boat give to its pilot the more/better tools to do its job ?"
Or... Let us do play some mind game here, just for fun
Suppose you have been choosen by your alliance to be the champion that will fight the best PvPer of another good PvP alliance for the control of a selected region. Rules are quite simple: The encounter will take place in a given system. Authorized ships are cruiser and above size hull, no faction, no capital. What ship will you field ? A blaster boat, really ?
If this was to start within scram range I would choose a myrmidon, outside of scram a drake.
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Aznwithbeard
Minmatar Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2011.01.31 14:51:00 -
[93]
gallente = facemelting dps @ under 2000k range + drone dps. Only problem is getting into that range. Thoughtfully, most people are morons and will let you get into said range when they feel they have superior numbers/ firepower.
Alternatively, Fly an active armor domi with minmatar autocannons and like 15 thousand flights of ogre 2s, and kill everything you see. Guns don't kill people. onowait. |
Murq
Helljumpers
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Posted - 2011.01.31 17:13:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Aznwithbeard gallente = facemelting dps @ under 2000k range + drone dps. Only problem is getting into that range.
That tends to be a really big problem.
This question is really only relative to the type of PVP you intend on engaging in. If you're a pirate or do highsec wardec camping; gallente can melt some ships really fast...
But for strategic fleets and 0.0 warfare; today they're pretty much useless. The Thanatos and Nyx are great ;) Range is EVERYTHING in today's PVP and Gallente can't USE any of their AWESOME DPS because they can never get into RANGE. I'd rather have half dps and still be hitting my target than none at all.
Also, drones are a disadvantage in most peoples minds. It's possible to shoot drones (reducing your DPS) when it's NOT possible to shoot other ships' guns. Also, unlike guns, drones damage isn't instant because they need to be dropped and they have to burn towards the target. In fast fleets, having drones out can sometimes get you killed as you fumble to get them back in your ship. They also become expensive when you warp off to avoid dying and leave them behind.
Yes, Gallente is by far the most nerfed race... but in 2006 man they were awesome.. different style of PVP back then though.
Now most people tend to stick to ships that shoot 30-150KM .. 2KM optimal just doesn't cut it. Drones only go 45-60KM due to drone control range (which in my opinion is ephing ******ed.. due to all the other problems with drones as primary weaponry.. they should have no limit on their range) Oh, and if you want your drones to go farther; you have to waste a highslot on a drone module. There goes your 'if-I'm-lucky' DPS.
Don't listen to the trolls that say, "quit *****ing because you're new. you're just doing it wrong." Don't listen to the people that say, "use minmatar guns on your gallente ship" <- yes, this is cool on some ships, but who wants to cross-train their weaponry against their bonus.. you should only be doing this if you already have the guns and you want to use them in a non-niche way.
TBH, training Gallente today for anything short of Capitals.. is doing it wrong. Their notable ships are a short list.
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Lain Umi
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Posted - 2011.01.31 17:53:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Murq
Also, unlike guns, drones damage isn't instant because they need to be dropped and they have to burn towards the target.
Drones only go 45-60KM due to drone control range (which in my opinion is ephing ******ed.. due to all the other problems with drones as primary weaponry.. they should have no limit on their range)
i guess youve never heard of sentries? you can get 470 instant dps at 120 km with the isthar, just to give you an example. using anything other than lights and sentries in pvp is epic fail.
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Xavier Zedicus
United Miners Inc.
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Posted - 2011.01.31 18:56:00 -
[96]
Scenario in steps: Blaster boat: A encounter target;
A. Target is in range. Open fire, guns and drones. B. Target is out of range. Open fire, drones. ---1. Drones get shot. You don't. Close range and profit. ---2. Drones are ignored. Solace in fact that they are in armor before u even start. And when you start they no longer can apply dps.
It's that easy. After that it's down to situational awareness. Besides IF you had to close range to engage. And you cannot win the fight you should have been moving in the other direction.
Another thing. Drones should be on hot keys. Attack, return and orbit, and return to bay. Also Ccp add a drone release Hotkey and ability to designate the default launch group.
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The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc.
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Posted - 2011.01.31 19:13:00 -
[97]
Edited by: The Djego on 31/01/2011 19:15:59
Originally by: Aznwithbeard gallente = facemelting dps @ under 2000k range + drone dps. Only problem is getting into that range.
Outside of frigs, serpentis ships, gang tackle, not so much. You can't facemelt people if you can't pin them down and apply full dps at this ranges, however you can perfectly well at other ranges(with acs and puls), where tracking is not such a issue. I flown gank megas quite a bit(a lot solo) before QR and the damage projection ability isn't something that let you consider them as a good gank ships in his traditional roles. Today my pest is a far better "facemelter" at 15-20km than the mega is at 4.5km before you even figure in that it is harder to get at this ranges and includes a lot more risk since you will be webbed and scramed without gtfo ability or the advantage the bigger range gives in most situations.
---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Murq
Helljumpers
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Posted - 2011.01.31 19:20:00 -
[98]
My biggest problem with Gallente is; DO OR DIE. Once you commit to a fight in under 2km, you're probably there for the duration of the fight; whereas other ships can fight outside of Web and Scram range.
If I'm soloing someone and any of his friends show up; chances are I'm webbed and scrammed and therefore screwed.
Ships need the ability to GTFO.
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Lain Umi
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Posted - 2011.01.31 19:57:00 -
[99]
why would you be picking them back up when you can carry 3 flights? if your fleet is retreating more than 3 times, it's fail anyway.
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Umega
Solis Mensa
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Posted - 2011.01.31 20:51:00 -
[100]
Originally by: space bear
Originally by: Umega
(...) What a ridiculously broad question. I don't have the slighest idea what ships nor the pilots behind them. Go ahead and conjure up some twisted scenario that's bent to what you want to have happen in this pointless arguement you're trying to produce.. and I'll make own plausible scenarios where I am right. Whoopy.
(...)
You're quite right, I should have better formulate the question here "Which of the blaster boat or the A/C boat give to its pilot the more/better tools to do its job ?"
Or... Let us do play some mind game here, just for fun
Suppose you have been choosen by your alliance to be the champion that will fight the best PvPer of another good PvP alliance for the control of a selected region. Rules are quite simple: The encounter will take place in a given system. Authorized ships are cruiser and above size hull, no faction, no capital. What ship will you field ? A blaster boat, really ?
Assuming I don't have a spy telling me what Choosen Warrior counterpart picked..
BS - Domi BC - Myrm or Drake Cruiser - Proteus, Curse, Lach
And my choices really have nothing to do with the weapon systems. It's a whole package deal when facing an unknown but sure fire 1 v 1. You can't make such a pick purely on weapon systems, unless bound to such within a skillset. They all have their strengthens and weakness.. in 1v1 it comes down to Pilot and Hull before weapon type. An AC kiter is going to be ****ed, either to run away.. or run into the ship fitted with a scripted TD, any ship, bonus or not. ---------------------------------------- Treat the EVE markets like you are its Pimp.. it is your 'willing' employee to fondle n use n abuse as you please. |
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Lost Greybeard
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Posted - 2011.01.31 21:09:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen
Originally by: Tony SoXai Small-ship-wise, both hybrids and gallente are fine. They have great frigate sized ships and great cruiser sized ships. Some of the best in their class.
The good things about gallente and hybrids outweigh the bad.
Go get some experience with gallente and hybrids or post with your main before you make a comment like that
I fly gallente pretty much exclusively, and I've had no issues with hybrids at the frig/cruiser level. Can't comment on the BC level, because Myrm uses drones for damage and usually prefers projectiles due to the prevalence of crazy multi-repper and shield setups.
As for battleships, if you're in a Domi why would you even equip guns? Those slots are for drone enhancements and neuts.
I guess I've gotta say I'm kind of "meh" on this issue. Hybrids can be situationally weak, but they do what they do well (beat the living **** out of people you're basically bumping, hit people you have no business hitting on the other side of the grid) and the mid-range fail in Gallente weaponry would only be a big deal if we didn't all have great drone skills.
I'm also under the impression that our cap+ ships are good, though **** that. ---
If you outlaw tautologies, only outlaws will have tautologies. ~Anonymous |
The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc.
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Posted - 2011.01.31 21:18:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Murq My biggest problem with Gallente is; DO OR DIE. Once you commit to a fight in under 2km, you're probably there for the duration of the fight; whereas other ships can fight outside of Web and Scram range. If I'm soloing someone and any of his friends show up; chances are I'm webbed and scrammed and therefore screwed.
Ships need the ability to GTFO.
Actually no. Blaster ships had(before QR) the ability to take down tacklers within the blink of a eye and you could focus on fights where they really want to go for the kill. DO OR DIE is actually a very useful game concept if it leads to the intended results(let stuff die) in proper gameplay. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Ryan Starwing
Gallente Cryptonym Sleepers Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.01.31 21:53:00 -
[103]
Edited by: Ryan Starwing on 31/01/2011 21:53:41 Cross trained to mini and I have to say go fly blasters please, but stay away from drone boats they are below adverage while blasters rock /end troll
Hybrids suck they are outclassed in every role by another weapon system. A geddon will out dps the mega after 8km (still inside scram range) and they have same drone bay+bandwidth. All races but caldari on most of their gun boats can use drone fairly well, and they all have a bs capable fielding a full flight of heavies like the mega.
As for dedicated drone boats amarr has some too and are used similerly with neuting ewar but are limited to the cruiser size. Drone boats are above adverage but have problems with fleet pvp and low sec gate camps.
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Murq
Helljumpers
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Posted - 2011.01.31 22:22:00 -
[104]
Edited by: Murq on 31/01/2011 22:23:14
Originally by: Lain Umi why would you be picking them back up when you can carry 3 flights? if your fleet is retreating more than 3 times, it's fail anyway.
Quit posting. 1) How many Gallente boats can carry three flights of sentries..? 2? Isn't one of them Pirate ship? The ISHTAR is your argument? Ishtar and Gila. 2 ships makes Gallente not nerf? Great logic.
2) 'If your fleet is retreating more than 3 times' LOLWUT. - There is always a bigger fish out there. Oh wait, I guess you blob with 70 man fleets therefore never have to leave a slugfest to get a more tactical position. Or maybe you just only fight on gates... Small gangs constantly have to warp around.. making sentries a huge pain in the ass... also shootable in your absence of repositioning when something was burning to tackle you.
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Lain Umi
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Posted - 2011.02.01 00:38:00 -
[105]
Edited by: Lain Umi on 01/02/2011 00:41:17
Originally by: Murq Edited by: Murq on 31/01/2011 22:23:14
Originally by: Lain Umi why would you be picking them back up when you can carry 3 flights? if your fleet is retreating more than 3 times, it's fail anyway.
Quit posting. 1) How many Gallente boats can carry three flights of sentries..? 2? Isn't one of them Pirate ship? The ISHTAR is your argument? Ishtar and Gila. 2 ships makes Gallente not nerf? Great logic.
2) 'If your fleet is retreating more than 3 times' LOLWUT. - There is always a bigger fish out there. Oh wait, I guess you blob with 70 man fleets therefore never have to leave a slugfest to get a more tactical position. Or maybe you just only fight on gates... Small gangs constantly have to warp around.. making sentries a huge pain in the ass... also shootable in your absence of repositioning when something was burning to tackle you.
no reading comprehension + general lack of knowledge about the game + smacktard ftl. fix one of these about yourself and maybe someone will take you seriously.
- you dont actually need 3 flights of sentries unless youre special ed. i just thought id dumb it down for you because you seem unfamiliar with the ship. the ishtar is my argument because it's one of 3-4 gallente ships worth training for, which means the gallente ARE "nerf", as you so eloquently put it.
- you talk a lot of smack for someone who's never actually used the ship. if you did, you'd know that out of all the sniper boats, it's the one that keeps you the safest while dishing the most dps. to give you a bit of education, bouncers have the most fall-off while dealing the least resisted dmg in the game with an optimal of about 90km, hitting for most of their dps even at 120km. with these badboys out, you can form an equilateral triangle between the gate, sentries and the ishtar, which gives you enough time to melt a vagabond (for example) before it gets within 60km of the ship, or to split if needed.
essentially, this does mean that drone boats, more specifically sentry boats, are more than well-off. correct me if im wrong, but you were the tard arguing a few posts up how drones suck because they take forever to get to the target.
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Linna Excel
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Posted - 2011.02.01 05:17:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Murq Edited by: Murq on 31/01/2011 19:21:09 My biggest problem with Gallente is; DO OR DIE. Once you commit to a fight in under 2km, you're probably there for the duration of the fight; whereas other ships can fight outside of Web and Scram range.
If I'm soloing someone and any of his friends show up; chances are I'm webbed and scrammed and therefore screwed.
Question: if gallente ships had a bonus to web/scram range, would that make them a little more balanced?
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2011.02.01 05:32:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Linna Excel
Question: if gallente ships had a bonus to web/scram range, would that make them a little more balanced?
It would make them Serpentis ships, or AT8 reward ships. Both not really the most balanced ships around.
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The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc.
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Posted - 2011.02.01 09:26:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Linna Excel
Originally by: Murq Edited by: Murq on 31/01/2011 19:21:09 My biggest problem with Gallente is; DO OR DIE. Once you commit to a fight in under 2km, you're probably there for the duration of the fight; whereas other ships can fight outside of Web and Scram range.
If I'm soloing someone and any of his friends show up; chances are I'm webbed and scrammed and therefore screwed.
Question: if gallente ships had a bonus to web/scram range, would that make them a little more balanced?
They need a bonus to web strength(like serpentis ships), they don't need web/scram range bonuses.
Back in the days there where many threads about how poor the QR design was regarding blaster pvp and that you can't have a working blaster ship without lethal close range. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Othran
Ad Infernum
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Posted - 2011.02.01 11:20:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Othran on 01/02/2011 11:23:24 Taranis, Ishkur, Arazu, Lachesis, Ishtar, Dominix, Thanatos and Nyx are the best PvP ships out of the Gallente lineup IMHO.
Rifter, Stiletto, Rupture, Vagabond, Scimitar, Hurricane, Sleipnir, Claymore are the best PvP ships for Minmatar. Up until fairly recently Minmatar BS were treated as useless in PvP compared to other races but they seem to have found a niche in lagfest fleet action due to the alpha.
So we have roughly the same number of decent ships for Minnie and Gallente. The difference of course is that most of the Gallente "decent ships" don't rely on blasters, whereas every decent ship on the Minnie side uses ACs (logi excepted of course).
I tend to think that the best bonus to fix this would be a MWD boost for the first couple of cycles on Gallente ships which already have hybrid gun bonuses. Pretty much give it the same bonus as overheat does but with no damage for first two cycles. If that can be done JUST for MWD then do it via overheat/thermodynamics. Not sure it'd be a plan for ranis/Ishkur though and you'd need a timer so people don't just "permarun two cycles"
That'd give the Gallente ships a chance to get in range at the start of the fight and do some damage before they're hull tanking
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Mocam
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Posted - 2011.02.01 13:08:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Othran Edited by: Othran on 01/02/2011 11:23:24 Taranis, Ishkur, Arazu, Lachesis, Ishtar, Dominix, Thanatos and Nyx are the best PvP ships out of the Gallente lineup IMHO.
Rifter, Stiletto, Rupture, Vagabond, Scimitar, Hurricane, Sleipnir, Claymore are the best PvP ships for Minmatar. Up until fairly recently Minmatar BS were treated as useless in PvP compared to other races but they seem to have found a niche in lagfest fleet action due to the alpha.
So we have roughly the same number of decent ships for Minnie and Gallente. The difference of course is that most of the Gallente "decent ships" don't rely on blasters, whereas every decent ship on the Minnie side uses ACs (logi excepted of course).
I tend to think that the best bonus to fix this would be a MWD boost for the first couple of cycles on Gallente ships which already have hybrid gun bonuses. Pretty much give it the same bonus as overheat does but with no damage for first two cycles. If that can be done JUST for MWD then do it via overheat/thermodynamics. Not sure it'd be a plan for ranis/Ishkur though and you'd need a timer so people don't just "permarun two cycles"
That'd give the Gallente ships a chance to get in range at the start of the fight and do some damage before they're hull tanking
One problem with some of those "hybrid bonuses" - several ships have bonus to fall-off for blasters or rails. What the hell kind of bonus is that for Gallente ships?
I just finished fitting out 2 AC packing Phobos HIC's. The guns don't mean much to me on a 'gang' designed HIC fit but why the hell would I fit blasters -OR- rails on the thing when I can get better performance from AC's on it?
Seriously - that bonus adds no real value to me for using "native" guns and the cap savings ARE of value going with AC's.
I've been stumbling over these issues for a while now. The ship bonuses are junk trying to justify fitting hybrids on the ships.
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Othran
Ad Infernum
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Posted - 2011.02.01 14:28:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Othran on 01/02/2011 14:30:22
Originally by: Mocam The guns don't mean much to me on a 'gang' designed HIC fit but why the hell would I fit blasters -OR- rails on the thing when I can get better performance from AC's on it?
I quite agree.
Othran only flies minmatar (and a couple of other races inties/EAFs) but when I started the character then minmatar was the hard race to PvP cos of the cross-training etc.
Now nobody bothers with cross-training - slap some ACs/TE2s on and job done.
The problem with ACs is pretty simple. Its the misleadingly named Tracking Enhancer 2, AKA "God mode". Now I benefit from this but even I can see its wrong to have a standard fit Vagabond hitting (opt+falloff) with RF EMP/PP/Fusion at 29km (and 45km with barrage). Hell it'll even hit to 15km with HAIL
TE2's need a nerf on falloff - I'll hate it when they do it but it DOES need doing.
That's not going to help the Gallente though - their ships need a bit of attention like you say on bonuses etc.
Edit - oh and I honestly think that blasters are fine as they are. The issue is how to get them in range.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.02.01 15:06:00 -
[112]
Drones just need a boost to speed (and tracking) and durability. That way even if you can't catch those kiting minmatar/pirate ships you can at least have your drones do enough damage to chase them off. What sucks is when they can easilly outrun or insta pop your drones and then turn their guns on you for a long slow death while you flail around trying to catch them.
I think this solution (as opposed to many others I have read) would make it so the races are still diverse. It would also give amarr a slight boost which they need in the sub bs ships.
Some boost to tracking of blasters is in order too though IMO. -Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Lilith Velkor
Minmatar Heretic Army
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Posted - 2011.02.01 17:39:00 -
[113]
Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 01/02/2011 19:28:54
Originally by: Othran
The problem with ACs is pretty simple. Its the misleadingly named Tracking Enhancer 2, AKA "God mode". Now I benefit from this but even I can see its wrong to have a standard fit Vagabond hitting (opt+falloff) with RF EMP/PP/Fusion at 29km (and 45km with barrage). Hell it'll even hit to 15km with HAIL
So your vagabond will do the damage a decently fit frigate will do where the zealot is still in its optimal and deals full damage. I think you should write home about it.
I wish people would actually get a clue about falloff mechanics before commenting on it, but that will never happen I guess.
Also LOL hail. If you ever use hail in a vagabond you should just sell the ship to someone who knows how to use it.
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durablesilver
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Posted - 2011.02.01 21:11:00 -
[114]
drones |
Zig Atlas
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Posted - 2011.02.02 01:00:00 -
[115]
I haven't been playing for very long, but I have already abandoned Gallente ships. I'm going Caldari/Minmatar.
Drones, however, are VERY good on Gallente ships. If you want to stick with Gallenete, go drones and never look back.
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.02.02 06:51:00 -
[116]
Drone bay (not deployed bandwidth) ought to be doubled on non-drone boat Gallente boats. That would give them a bit better engagement envelope.
Navy cruisers are the worst. Navy Exe should have a 40m3 drone bay for its paltry 20m3 drone bandwidth, and the Navy Vex should have a 200m3 drone bay for its 100m3 bandwidth.
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Deerin
Minmatar Murientor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.02.02 07:40:00 -
[117]
Gallente ships are actually quite fine. It is the hybrids that needs a fix. The thing that bothers me most is the fitting requirements on higher end medium blasters. To properly fit medium neutrons on any caldari or gallente ship you just have to sacrifice everything else.
Lowering fitting requirements for neutrons and ions is a step in right direction I'd say. ------------------------------------------- Die Amarr Die!!! |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.02.02 18:06:00 -
[118]
The fitting requirements are worse for frigates.
The worst Gallente small blasters have the same fitting requirements as the best Minmater autocannons.
Name, PG, CPU, Opt, Falloff,Opt+Falloff, dps Light Electron Blaster II, 3.6, 6.8, 0.8,1.9, 2.7, 32 Light Neutron Blaster II, 9, 14.3, 1.1, 3.1, 4.2, 36 125mm Gatling Autocannon II, 0.9, 2.3, 0.6, 5, 5.6, 25 200mm Autocannon II, 3.6, 6.8, 0.8, 6, 6.8, 28
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Ophelia Ursus
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Posted - 2011.02.02 18:20:00 -
[119]
Originally by: X Gallentius
The worst Gallente small blasters have more dps than the best autocannons
so unfair Signature removed. |
Target Painter
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.02.02 18:53:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Othran The problem with ACs is pretty simple. Its the misleadingly named Tracking Enhancer 2, AKA "God mode". Now I benefit from this but even I can see its wrong to have a standard fit Vagabond hitting (opt+falloff) with RF EMP/PP/Fusion at 29km (and 45km with barrage). Hell it'll even hit to 15km with HAIL
TE2's need a nerf on falloff - I'll hate it when they do it but it DOES need doing.
A falloff bonused ship, using falloff bonused ammo and fitting two mods to increase falloff has wicked-long falloff?
THE HIGH COUNCIL DEMANDS AN EXPLANATION FOR THIS!
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