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Fred Freedom
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.26 02:52:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Fred Freedom on 26/01/2011 02:53:48
We have done them with the recommended number of ships. Predictably, hisec players are doing them wrong (ignoring the mass smartbomb deaths for a moment). That was not the problem when we came in; our theorycrafting worked.
There are, however, several major issues that make them far more painful than their worth in LP/isk.
1)We *can't* do HQ sites with the recommended number of ships. That is, we could and have, but even with our good fleet composition and proper setups we took losses. More importantly it took us longer to do an HQ than our secondary fleet took to do 2.5 assault sites with zero casualties. This is probably because we didn't reduce the control timer far enough...
2)The control timer itself is, in a word, ridiculous. It relies on people to continually run assaults (or vanguards, I suppose) just to keep the bar down for the people running HQs. Without those secondary fleets the HQ fleets cannot continue in any reasonable amount of time. If they all split up and run assaults instead the systems run out of assault sites while the HQs are still up, but now it's been 2-3 hours and people start leaving. Just going to the HQs immediately leads to losses and, again, we couldn't keep the bar down with 70-80 players that knew what they were doing. There is no way to show up with a single fleet of 40 people and run a single HQ site as a contribution to the cause or what have you, unless you really feel like losing 4-5 ships to get less LP than you could running assaults. The whole system feels like it was designed to have 200+ people continually spinning the hamster wheel for an entire 24-72 hour period and will not work without that critical mass.
3)Some of the sub-sites themselves are equally ridiculous. We've got some straightforward PvP-ish ones that take 15 minutes to do. Others involve mining (lol, no thanks), the moving hacking array thing that instantly triples the time to run the site, or better yet the fantastic assault site that requires you to split your already small force into 2 while limiting the ship types in each and not telling you about that ahead of time - that one likely ramps up the overall time to do the site to over an hour. Oh, and the type of site that respawns is random. I really can't wait to be forced to run a bunch of these in 0.0 just to get them out of our region, clearing a dozen PvP-ish incursions only to be confronted by endless respawns of "hulk required". Regardless, my main point is that the isk/hour in these things is not even remotely close between sites of the same caliber.
4)2.5 races need not apply. Good luck doing these if your character is not trained into one of the several PvE/PvP FOTM possibilities. The specific mix of ships in each system is geared towards a very specific counter. Since we all have a million alts we can do them anyway. It doesn't make this design less dumb.
5)They're just so painfully boring we're never doing them after the first month, period, unless/until we have to clear out a necessary constellation. This is a separate post, though.
Bottom line: I/my alliance currently sees them as a pointless, tedious annoyance with little prospect of a pot of gold at the end; we have zero faith in pubbies to start or finish the job and we don't really have the 200+ people interested in these to run them start to finish in a day, meaning the counter will just regenerate and our work will be for nothing. That's okay, though, since we'll just buckle down, call an alliance-wide op and get rid of the random incursion in our space when we have to. If you're some guy with 500 members in your renter alliance and your overlords don't feel like sacrificing their entire day to clear your one outpost out, good luck with that.
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Steve Thomas
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.26 03:02:00 -
[62]
I agree that the Aliance side has it a lot easyer than empire side does, they already know all of this for one thing.
that said, they had a heck of a problem Emprie side, they cant realy make them easyer than low sec all things being equal, because then they would just end up the way the old complexes did and be farmed by teams with minmaxed setups.
that and bluntly they bascialy ran out of time developing this.
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Fleet Coordination Coalition
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Posted - 2011.01.26 03:04:00 -
[63]
If people are expecting to do the PUG thing, keep in mind that a new grief tool is to join a PUG and get the RR ships concorded.
The safest bet is to be in an alliance that is dedicated to dealing with the incursions.
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Fred Freedom
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.26 03:14:00 -
[64]
 Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer
If people are expecting to do the PUG thing, keep in mind that a new grief tool is to join a PUG and get the RR ships concorded.
The safest bet is to be in an alliance that is dedicated to dealing with the incursions.
I did not mention the Concordokken thing because that's obviously going to get fixed. (Never mind that CCP knew about this for at least a month and let it slip anyway because, hey, corporate deadlines. It's hilarious that nobody plays the game enough to have figured out this was a Really Important Issue deserving immediate attention, but aside from that, we've all been there.) However, even after that's fixed PUGs won't accomplish anything; you'll still have 50% of your fleet showing up in short range fits, 50% in long range fits, and 100% in sub-optimal ships for the job so you'll wind up getting less reward than running mediocre L3's - assuming someone doesn't show up to steal your mothership (we will).
So, yeah, I expect Empire incursions to be entirely worthless really quickly. Lowsec ones might get interesting if a few dedicated anti-incursion corps/alliances pop up to farm them. Important 0.0 systems will be cleared out as fast as humanly possible by alliances that curse CCP the entire time. The rest will be left to rot.
I won't call this expansion worse than Dominion, but it's gotta be up there.
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Sidus Sarmiang
GoonWaffe
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Posted - 2011.01.26 03:26:00 -
[65]
To fix this:
1. Remove or drastically slow down the rate at which the incursion bar respawns. It artificially inflates how much you have to do these beyond any reasonable amount. Seriously, lose this crap.
2. Consider whether the stupid site gimmicks are fun or not. Hacking occasionally? Sure, why not? Hacking being used to increase the length of mission time threefold? No thanks. Random, arbitrary gate requirements? No. It's not fun to have to remake the fleet and optimize it for each site individually.
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Ocih
Amarr
The Program
Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.26 03:29:00 -
[66]
Originally by: CCP Incognito
I can say that the incursion encounters have all been play tested and mass tested on sisi with the recommended number of ships.
Welcome to your blob warfare training.
Soon you will be in null sec *****ing about node crashing with the other 25% of EvE.
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Seklyko
East Oursulaert Fleecers
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Posted - 2011.01.26 03:31:00 -
[67]
Colelie: 2303 ships destroyed in last 24 hours
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Signature goes here |
Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
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Posted - 2011.01.26 03:37:00 -
[68]
day one and we have tears before bed time.
Sounds like a hit record to me CCP.
Hoppit!
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Steve Thomas
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.26 03:52:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Seklyko
Colelie: 2303 ships destroyed in last 24 hours
yay my monthly ship sales will now go up by 1 per month.
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Loraine Gess
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Posted - 2011.01.26 03:55:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Seklyko
Colelie: 2303 ships destroyed in last 24 hours
People are mass suiciding noobships.
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LegendaryFrog
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.26 04:15:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Sidus Sarmiang
To fix this:
1. Remove or drastically slow down the rate at which the incursion bar respawns. It artificially inflates how much you have to do these beyond any reasonable amount. Seriously, lose this crap.
2. Consider whether the stupid site gimmicks are fun or not. Hacking occasionally? Sure, why not? Hacking being used to increase the length of mission time threefold? No thanks. Random, arbitrary gate requirements? No. It's not fun to have to remake the fleet and optimize it for each site individually.
Both of these are very true. The incursion bar decay rate is far too high right now. The "critical mass" of people needed to run these sites across all timezones is massive, and I really don't think we will see it being reached in a regular basis. If this is by design, then perhaps the rewards of this system need to be reconsidered, considering the LP isn't payed out unless the entire incursion in defeated.
And whomever decided it would be a good idea to have sites that require a fleet split into two artificially needs a stern talking to. Grouping/ungrouping fleets in the middle of a site is not fun by any stretch of the imagination, and adds nothing other than time-consuming frustration.
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Linna Excel
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Posted - 2011.01.26 04:27:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Fred Freedom
2)The control timer itself is, in a word, ridiculous. It relies on people to continually run assaults (or vanguards, I suppose) just to keep the bar down for the people running HQs. Without those secondary fleets the HQ fleets cannot continue in any reasonable amount of time.
In other words if people don't do the incursion sites enough, not enough people do them, people quit (not enough loot, too hard, don't think their frigate/cruiser/BC will survive more than a second, etc) then you can't win them?
As a relatively new player, in an NPC corp, and all I have to go by is the whine/counterwhine on the forums or reports that every jerk is being a jerk just to screw over the missions to which even if you complete you might not get a reward, I have to ask myself if it's worth the effort to even pay attention to this.
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Linna Excel
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Posted - 2011.01.26 04:30:00 -
[73]
Originally by: LegendaryFrog
And whomever decided it would be a good idea to have sites that require a fleet split into two artificially needs a stern talking to. Grouping/ungrouping fleets in the middle of a site is not fun by any stretch of the imagination, and adds nothing other than time-consuming frustration.
Why do fleets need to be split into two?
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Aunty Nora
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Posted - 2011.01.26 04:39:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Linna Excel
Originally by: LegendaryFrog
And whomever decided it would be a good idea to have sites that require a fleet split into two artificially needs a stern talking to. Grouping/ungrouping fleets in the middle of a site is not fun by any stretch of the imagination, and adds nothing other than time-consuming frustration.
Why do fleets need to be split into two?
You need to do two seperate things at the same time.
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Katsura Kotonoha
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.26 04:42:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Katsura Kotonoha on 26/01/2011 04:42:54
Edited by: Katsura Kotonoha on 26/01/2011 04:41:47
Originally by: Linna Excel
Originally by: LegendaryFrog
And whomever decided it would be a good idea to have sites that require a fleet split into two artificially needs a stern talking to. Grouping/ungrouping fleets in the middle of a site is not fun by any stretch of the imagination, and adds nothing other than time-consuming frustration.
Why do fleets need to be split into two?
Nation Consolidation Network
Forces Required:
ò 10 - 20 pilots
Military Intelligence:
Your objective is to split your forces, clear a path to the NationÆs staging area, and destroy the fleet you find there. Sansha defenders have designed their security to separate capsuleer forces, but once both sides have breached the final area you will be able to reunite.
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There are two gates at this complex. Also not all ship types are allowed in them it appears.
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Linna Excel
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Posted - 2011.01.26 04:45:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Katsura Kotonoha
Nation Consolidation Network
Forces Required:
ò 10 - 20 pilots
Military Intelligence:
Your objective is to split your forces, clear a path to the NationÆs staging area, and destroy the fleet you find there. Sansha defenders have designed their security to separate capsuleer forces, but once both sides have breached the final area you will be able to reunite.
So it's impossible to jump in, do one side, go out, do the other, and finish?
If it splits people automatically, is it done randomly, or first half go into one area, the second goes into the other? Maybe you need to warp in in a specific order.
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PTang
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Posted - 2011.01.26 04:50:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Katsura Kotonoha
Edited by: Katsura Kotonoha on 26/01/2011 04:42:54
Edited by: Katsura Kotonoha on 26/01/2011 04:41:47
Originally by: Linna Excel
Originally by: LegendaryFrog
And whomever decided it would be a good idea to have sites that require a fleet split into two artificially needs a stern talking to. Grouping/ungrouping fleets in the middle of a site is not fun by any stretch of the imagination, and adds nothing other than time-consuming frustration.
Why do fleets need to be split into two?
Nation Consolidation Network
Forces Required:
ò 10 - 20 pilots
Military Intelligence:
Your objective is to split your forces, clear a path to the NationÆs staging area, and destroy the fleet you find there. Sansha defenders have designed their security to separate capsuleer forces, but once both sides have breached the final area you will be able to reunite.
---------
There are two gates at this complex. Also not all ship types are allowed in them it appears.
that's badass.
whats so hard about it though? just make two gangs to start with. 20 RR battleships. done?
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Katsura Kotonoha
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.26 05:07:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Linna Excel
So it's impossible to jump in, do one side, go out, do the other, and finish?
If it splits people automatically, is it done randomly, or first half go into one area, the second goes into the other? Maybe you need to warp in in a specific order.
Originally by: PTang
that's badass.
whats so hard about it though? just make two gangs to start with. 20 RR battleships. done?
There are restrictions as to what ships you can use. I won't state which since that would give away the surprise. That is part of where the challenge lies. It may be possible to do one side and then the other, but not without switching ships.
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Apollo Gabriel
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels
Etherium Cartel
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Posted - 2011.01.26 05:19:00 -
[79]
If people were doing all the sites on the first day, I would have cried.
Dare I say progression? Sure uber alliance goonbiscuit did well, but did they do all? No, are they yet profitable? Nope, not until you figure out how to make them that way, just like everything else in eve.
Do I know incursions rule? nope, it takes time to learn and try, but I love what I see so far.
Best regards,
Apollo Gabriel
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2011.01.26 05:25:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Count Chamberlain
This wasn't challenging or fun.
The events where supposed to be more PVP like.
Those Sansha ships no doubt had impossible fits.
typical CCP
Funny isn't it.
"Super advanced AI"
"More damage"
"More tank"
"Cheats with ewar"
In game design the easiest way to make your AI appear more inteligent without actually spending processor time is to make them harder.
Cheap trick.
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Jireel
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Posted - 2011.01.26 05:29:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Dr BattleSmith
Originally by: Count Chamberlain
This wasn't challenging or fun.
The events where supposed to be more PVP like.
Those Sansha ships no doubt had impossible fits.
typical CCP
Funny isn't it.
"Super advanced AI"
"More damage"
"More tank"
"Cheats with ewar"
In game design the easiest way to make your AI appear more inteligent without actually spending processor time is to make them harder.
Cheap trick.
AIs in the current state of technology will NEVER be able to reach human ingeniosity. Especially because those features are going to last some time. Thus, they muse have other advantages, it's as simple as that.
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Katsura Kotonoha
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.26 05:31:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
I love what I see so far.
Yeah 2508 ships destroyed in one system in the last 24 hours lmbo.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.26 05:41:00 -
[83]
RR Navy Scorps with uber buffers.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ |
EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.26 05:42:00 -
[84]
Damn CCP for adding PvE that isnt mindless and boring. HOW DARE THEY MAKE PEOPLE LOSE SHIPS TO PvE! There should be no risk!
Hahahaha
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krickettt
Golden Orb Technology inc
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Posted - 2011.01.26 05:46:00 -
[85]
Colelie:
Ships killed in the last 24h - 4626.
NPCs killed in the last 24h - 5079.
lol I love it.
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Goose99
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Posted - 2011.01.26 05:54:00 -
[86]
Originally by: krickettt
Colelie:
Ships killed in the last 24h - 4626.
NPCs killed in the last 24h - 5079.
lol I love it.
Pretty soon both those stats will go down to near zero. Carebears who don't have hac/command ship/logi trained wouldn't bother after the initial interest. Even if they become organized, there'd be nothing they can do with that kind of SP distribution anyway. They'd be masochist if they're still interested after a while anyway.
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Drakarin
Gallente
Absentia Libertas Solus
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Posted - 2011.01.26 06:00:00 -
[87]
I never really was interested in Incursions to begin with, it's group content yet again. Wormholes were nerfed for soloers too. Overall, for the lone wolf, this isn't an expansion, it's a slap in the face. I guess CCP wants us out.
These incursions are also very horrible for my Tengu, since buffer is the primary necessity. Only way to get buffer on my tengu is to supersize my signature radius, losing the biggest part of my tank.
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2011.01.26 06:16:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Jireel
AIs in the current state of technology will NEVER be able to reach human ingeniosity. Especially because those features are going to last some time. Thus, they muse have other advantages, it's as simple as that.
duh..........
My point is that "smarter AI" and "more tank, more damage" in the same sentence is an obvious oxymoron.
Anyone who believes an AI who hits harder and tanks more is somehow smarter is deluding themselves.
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Elzon1
Caldari
Shadow Boys Corp
White Angels.
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Posted - 2011.01.26 06:21:00 -
[89]
Originally by: CCP Incognito
I can say that the incursion encounters have all been play tested and mass tested on sisi with the recommended number of ships.
Quick question, will the incursion systems spread if not defeated?
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EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.26 06:22:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Drakarin
I never really was interested in Incursions to begin with, it's group content yet again. Wormholes were nerfed for soloers too. Overall, for the lone wolf, this isn't an expansion, it's a slap in the face. I guess CCP wants us out.
These incursions are also very horrible for my Tengu, since buffer is the primary necessity. Only way to get buffer on my tengu is to supersize my signature radius, losing the biggest part of my tank.
Ya, damn CCP want people to actually cooperate with other players in an MMO for the high end ****.
Also perhaps you should then focus on buffer tanking and not try to both sig and buffer tank it. Just a thought. Sounds to me like way too many empire dwellers are set in their ways and unwilling to theorycraft up setups that can work in this simply because they want to shoehorn whats worked on every other form of PvE in the game
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