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James Tiberius Kirk
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Posted - 2011.01.27 17:37:00 -
[1]
Everyone knows there are lots of bots. Most of us can spot miner macros on high sec pretty quickly, they are everywhere. They are so many of them in fact, it almost changes the focus of player events (Hulkageddon).
Most veterans also knows there are TONS of botters in null sec. Up to the point where it becomes common knowledge. Nicknames (AAA Botters, Legion of Botters), bad puns (Drone Regions, get it?) or mottos (What happens in Venal, stays in Venal) are all products of rampant botting.
CCP's stand, at least officially, is that botting is illegal and punishable by bannings. They say they are doing the best they can, yet we see more and more complaints about botting. If it is so easy for us to spot and prove that someone is botting/macroing, how hard could it be for CCP to assign 1 GM to hunt bots. Its not exactly a secret where they do this stuff .
There are lots of threads about botting and CCP is certainly is avoiding them. There's only one method of inquiry that they cannot ignore, and that is CSM.
Thumbs up if you think next CSM should bring this situation to the table and ask why is CCP openly allowing bots to flourish.
Note: As a person who's income is coming from market games or mission running, I have no direct quarrel with bots as one might assume. However, I am concerned about the current and future state of my favorite game.
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Cyprus Black
Perkone
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Posted - 2011.01.27 17:40:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Cyprus Black on 27/01/2011 17:43:26 Not a day goes by where I don't encounter at least three unique bots ingame. That's not an exaggeration.
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Dramaticus
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.27 17:42:00 -
[3]
CCP doesn't care about botting unless it involves RMT and evidence that botting itself is harming the game is dubious at best.
Please don't use RL pictuers of players in Sig without permission. - WeatherMan |
Siona Windweaver
Placeholder Holdings
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Posted - 2011.01.27 17:48:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Dramaticus CCP doesn't care about botting unless it involves RMT and evidence that botting itself is harming the game is dubious at best.
We should all start botting then.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.27 17:50:00 -
[5]
Originally by: James Tiberius Kirk Note: As a person who's income is coming from market games or mission running, I have no direct quarrel with bots as one might assume. However, I am concerned about the current and future state of my favorite game.
Yes, you do.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ |
E man Industries
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Posted - 2011.01.27 17:54:00 -
[6]
Edited by: E man Industries on 27/01/2011 17:59:33
Originally by: Dramaticus CCP doesn't care about botting unless it involves RMT and evidence that botting itself is harming the game is dubious at best.
It does because it hurts players...that said CCP is failing because the only care about the RMT problem and care about bots as a function of RMT.
They need to stop botting...even if it is not tied to RMT. I got so mad at teh CSM minutes because CCP seemed incapable of saying they are working on botting other than how it connected to some RMT operations.
Players want bots gone....all of them. I don't want to bot....but with the lack of enforcment and rampant bots creating an alt acount funed through isk bought plex's and making me ISK sounds rather nice.
As mentioned it not hard to see bots...everyone knows who and where they are..any step towards banning these acount and thier IP's would be a step in the right direction. We need more unholy fury.
Currently Eve is rampant with bots. At the very least that is the player perception of the cituation and reguardless it needs to be delt with as players are not happy about the bot situation and thus it should be delt with.
Additionally penalties shoudl be harsher. When you ban a bot let us see nto onkly who..but what alliance. If we see an alliance with a large amount of bots banned the players will scorn that alliance until it shapes up. I know my corp does not tolerate botting..why should thiers...thismay be the most effective tool. If a corps or alliance stands to lose reputation for botters they may more actively police themselves. Further a better tracking of where the isk goes. If i know that if i use a bot and transfer the isk to my main that my main will get banned(and my alliance shamed) I will be less likely to use a bot.
This needs to be done now....not ina few months or years but now. let us see action.
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James Tiberius Kirk
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Posted - 2011.01.27 17:55:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Val'Dore
Originally by: James Tiberius Kirk Note: As a person who's income is coming from market games or mission running, I have no direct quarrel with bots as one might assume. However, I am concerned about the current and future state of my favorite game.
Yes, you do.
I don't really encounter bots unless I'm trading in mega-hub, so I have no DIRECT quarrel as I said. That doesn't mean they don't effect me however
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Severian Carnifex
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Posted - 2011.01.27 18:46:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Severian Carnifex on 27/01/2011 19:01:50
I support this!
+1
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Ephemeron
Lubricous Rebel Alliance of New Eden
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Posted - 2011.01.27 19:06:00 -
[9]
I think the problem is that some players are so stupid and carebearish that if you look at how they play and how bots play, you won't be able to see the difference.
Some people just play like bots. And neither you nor CCP can tell for sure if there's a real person behind the computer, without discriminating against stupid.
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Ranka Mei
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Posted - 2011.01.27 19:20:00 -
[10]
Supported. +1
I doubt CSM will get an honest response from CCP, though. But heck, stranger things have happened in the universe. :) --
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Dirty Wizard
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Posted - 2011.01.27 19:37:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Dirty Wizard on 27/01/2011 19:38:11
Originally by: Ephemeron Some people just play like bots. And neither you nor CCP can tell for sure if there's a real person behind the computer, without discriminating against stupid.
Are you seriously suggesting there are players out there who play 23/7 ratting in null sec, then warping off and cloaking up when someone enters the system?
Are you really suggesting there are players out there with no corp history, barely 3 months old, and fly an industrial through low sec all day every day 23/7?
Are you implying that all those players with zxbdqkl names who mine ice belts in high sec 23/7, with no corp history, barely 3 months old, and warp back and forth from station to belt repeatedly in their pod after they get ganked aren't bots?
Really!? I can't tell if you're truly that naive or just incredibly stupid. __________
Don't buy money from 3rd party isk spammers/sellers. Purchase isk through PLEX cards the legal way. |
Ephemeron
Lubricous Rebel Alliance of New Eden
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Posted - 2011.01.27 19:50:00 -
[12]
Quote: Are you seriously suggesting there are players out there who play 23/7 ratting in null sec, then warping off and cloaking up when someone enters the system?
There are people who play 8 hours a day and leave EVE running overnight while AFK cloaked. I used to do that. Most cases it only looks like the player is 23/7, when in reality it's probably 6 hours or less and AFK the rest
Quote: Are you really suggesting there are players out there with no corp history, barely 3 months old, and fly an industrial through low sec all day every day 23/7?
I know a lot of people who use alts for carebearing - alliance members in fleet ops, who switch to other chars while they are waiting for something to happen.
Quote: Are you implying that all those players with zxbdqkl names who mine ice belts in high sec 23/7, with no corp history, barely 3 months old, and warp back and forth from station to belt repeatedly in their pod after they get ganked aren't bots?
Some of those could be alts of real people
I'm not defending bots, and I'm not claiming there are no bots. Neither do I care for carebears and stupid people. I'm just pointing out a simple fact - it's not easy to distinguish between a botter and a mindless carebear. CCP cannot afford to make the mistake, even if there's only 5% chance the player is legit, they can't make a move. They gotta be 100% sure. And it's sure hard to get those last 5% of certainty.
I am for modifying the game to make it either to grief botters and carebears. Removing local in 0.0 would be a good start.
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lwxsky oli
FACTS on EVE OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2011.01.27 19:56:00 -
[13]
supported.
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Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.27 19:59:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Ephemeron There are people who play 8 hours a day and leave EVE running overnight while AFK cloaked. I used to do that. Most cases it only looks like the player is 23/7, when in reality it's probably 6 hours or less and AFK the rest...
I guess you trained Evasive Manoeuvring to lv V, the way you side-step the obvious with your reply. :) Being online 23/7 is not a sign of being a bot per se -- mining 23/7, however, is!
Since it would take CCP like 5 minutes to write a small script to see who falls into the latter category, the only logical inference must be that they don't give a rat's ass. --
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Widemouth Deepthroat
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Posted - 2011.01.27 19:59:00 -
[15]
Supported.
I don't care too much about the isk, I just hate the fact the only way you can reliably kill macro ratters in a reasonable amount of time is with awoxing (especially the interdiction nullifier tengus like the goons all use). And this means recycling characters which is a bannable offense (I don't do it personally).
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yani dumyat
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2011.01.27 20:20:00 -
[16]
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.01.27 20:47:00 -
[17]
I'd like the next CSM to champion delayed local and a new d-scanner with new scan mechanics.
Bullsheat nc alt OP not supported. ...
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Vincent Athena
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Posted - 2011.01.27 22:26:00 -
[18]
Supported.
Bots can be fought the same way CCP is going after phishing, by multiple actions at different places.
Modify the code so its harder for a bot program to control it.
Modify the content so its harder to be botted.
Add means to identify potential bots; activity monitors, player reports (which seem to be ignored currently), and maybe others. Seeing someone's client do stuff that can only be the result of mouse or key clicks 23/7 is a rather good indication.
Have a GM challenge potential botters identified above. Add a clause to the EULA that says failure to respond to a GM challenge while you are playing can get your account suspended. If the player continues to do stuff requiring manipulating the client while a GM convo sits in the middle of the screen, they get suspended. If they suddenly stop doing stuff, or log upon getting a GM challenge, they get flagged for future challenge. Repeats of this behavior can result in suspensions.
Name and shame would also be good, as well as releasing data in the QEN as to how many accounts get banned, and an estimate of the number of bots still in the game. At the moment the only ones who have any idea how many bots are in the game and how good a job CCP is doing against them are CCP and the botters. Us honest players are left in the dark.
At the moment it may be eve does not have a player driven economy. It has cheater driven economy.
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Larz Eldherjur
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Posted - 2011.01.27 23:13:00 -
[19]
Supported!
To allow cheating in a computergame will evidently lead to it's doom.
Please CCP! Take action against cheaters before it's too late!!!
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Corina Jarr
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Posted - 2011.01.27 23:22:00 -
[20]
I know for a fact that CCP is not ignoring bots. At least two bots players have been removed after my alt filed a report.
However, I would like them to continue working on this, in some form or another. At least tell us they are working on fight it. Don't need specifics. Just something along the lines of "We see you posts, and are working on a solution".
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2011.01.27 23:29:00 -
[21]
OR..... CSM could focus on something that actually matters and for which they can make improvements.
Faction War is a good start.
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Daxine Myth
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Posted - 2011.01.28 00:35:00 -
[22]
Hi, new to game and I've already had some problems with bots. The market one's are extremely annoying updating buy and sell orders instantly and to the exact same isk agrot.
One way to deal with market bots is to buy 1 item off them and then check transactions to see player name. Open a trade box with that player as trades can not be insta rejected, it seems to upset the macro's function.
I was interested in playing eve to see the real player driven economy that is advertised but I'm disappointed to see that it's just a sham driven by BOTS and NPC like any other single player games economy, of course there is human element but not nearly as much as advertised.
I don't think I'll be updating my subscription but I'm not sure yet because EVE is still a cool and unique game. It seems strange that CCP does little to prevent botters who play the game for free using isk'd plex but would rather see new subscribers leave the game.
I think the best way to encourage CCP to take action is to make sure Noobs are aware of the BOT problem before they subscribe that way they can vote with their dollars which CCP will listen too.
With a couple of new MMPOG space games coming out CCP might be more motivated to take action. CCP might then take action against the botters just like the 'unholy rage' thing against evil real money botters.
As for the claims bots are undetectable a quick look at other games detection methods including the online gambling world would reveal tons of ways of dealing with them.
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Daxine Myth
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Posted - 2011.01.28 00:48:00 -
[23]
http://www.mattmazur.com/2009/06/improving-pokerstarss-bot-detection-techniques/
Here's a link to some programmers who use bots to cheat poker players and their discussions and run in with casino a operator. It's tame stuff and it won't give any detailed info on how to actually detect or make a bot.
By the way this link does not intend to promote bots in either gambling or in fun games. The point of the link is prove there are easy detection methods.
The EVE client could be configured to scan operators systems to offensively find potential bot programs running on the system, if other software agents have them why not EVE?
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Dev Jah
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Posted - 2011.01.28 00:49:00 -
[24]
/thumbs up
If you don't understand the immense problems with botting and how it lessens the player experience for every single legit player, you haven't put much thought to it. Alternatively your a botter.
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Maxx Overseer
Gallente Decrypt Enterprise
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Posted - 2011.01.28 06:27:00 -
[25]
I've never used Bots or don't even understand them...
But
what about key binding, (is it the same?) can we use them or do we have them? I used them in other games and I liked them pretty much.
--- --- ---
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Pesadel0
the muppets RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2011.01.28 09:46:00 -
[26]
I would really like to see CCP take some actions against them ..
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.01.28 11:30:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Maxx Overseer what about key binding, (is it the same?) can we use them or do we have them? I used them in other games and I liked them pretty much.
Any keybinding that doesn't involve repeats or decision-making should be fine. For example, pressing F1, F2, F3, F4 from one keypress is not an issue. Having something that drags whatever is in your cargo hold to your jetcan every three minutes is obviously violating the TOS and spirit of the game.
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Illwill Bill
Noxious Intention
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Posted - 2011.01.28 11:41:00 -
[28]
FYI, CSM did bring up the bot issue. Read the meeting minutes.
Originally by: CCP Navigator Great story but you probably want this in CAOD so feel free to post there with your main.
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Othran
Ad Infernum
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Posted - 2011.01.28 11:44:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Othran on 28/01/2011 11:45:27 Supported but money is the bottom line so CCP will do nothing.
They can't afford to lose 30%+ of their accounts with two other games still in development and eating up the revenue from Eve.
Personally I just tell people not to bother playing Eve if they ask about it. I explain
1) that there's no point in manufacturing due to so many maxed out chars in existance - and macro mining funding a lot of it;
2) 0.01 station games are mainly bots;
3) null sec alliances are mainly funded by botting (yeah I know about moons but this is for a newbie).
If you want to do small scale (non-sov) PvP then that's do-able. Haul crap around and sell it - yeah you can do that. You can even play 0.01 trade games but its not as easy as it once was due to the proliferation of bots.
Pretty much everything else though you WILL be competing with bots for resources/bounties and unless you also bot then you will lose the isk war, which in turn means you'll lose any real wars.
Been going on for a very very long time now though with nothing done except when it affected CCPs revenue or put load on the server.
The implied message from CCP is "carry on botting".
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Gavjack Bunk
Dark Nexxus S I L E N T.
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Posted - 2011.01.28 11:48:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Gavjack Bunk on 28/01/2011 11:48:34 Maybe the question should be "Are you prepared to accept a xx-yy% price hike on Eve to cover their perceived losses if they get rid of all the bots?"
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