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[Reality Check] Bots, Macros and CCP

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Furb Killer	Posted - 2011.01.28 12:26:00 - [31] However at the same time without bots, both RMT and non-RMT, people have to get their ISK somewhere else. Since doing it the normal way like others apparently wasnt an option, the next possibility is selling plexes. More people selling plexes -> lower price of plexes -> more alts funded by plexes. Then the question is: what is larger, the extra number of alts funded by the cheaper plexes or the loss of the macros. Or version two: just get rid of the macros ffs.
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.01.28 13:35:00 - [32] Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 28/01/2011 13:35:12 Originally by: Othran Edited by: Othran on 28/01/2011 11:45:27 Supported but money is the bottom line so CCP will do nothing. They can't afford to lose 30%+ of their accounts with two other games still in development and eating up the revenue from Eve. I think this is a factor. Remember the last big stomp of bots, "Unholy Rage"? (which was almost 2 years ago). It had a big impact, for example, highsec macro miners virtually vanished for awhile. CCP did some big crow story about how much banning botters reduced node lag as well. Why haven't we read stories by CCP of "Unhony Rage II, III, and IV"? Simple: They haven't engaged botters seriously since Unholy Rage. Why? CCP makes more money off botters than they do us. People operating bots (and I've seen it demonstrated where one PC can now run MULTIPLE bots) farm ISK and pay for their game time in ISK. This fuels plex demand which then induces people to buy them to sell. CCP (and other publishers) like to wax poetic about how buying in game currency from RMT sellers "distorts and ruins the game". Yet, somehow, buying plex items from CCP and selling it on the market is "good". The fact of the matter is that EVERYONE who buys ISK, be it from purchasing plex items from CCP or buying from your friendly ChiComm ISK farmer IS BUYING FARMED ISK MOST LIKELY PRODUCED BY BOTS! The PLEX item existing on the in game market purchasable via in game currency in virtual anonymity is the FUEL THAT IS POWERING THE BOTS! CCP will not engage in widespread bot crackdowns like they did pre-PLEX because they know that it will harm their revenue. Here is what they need to do: 1. There needs to be a period where PLEX sales are SUSPENDED. What is in game and on the market can continue to sell, but they won't sell new ones. 2. CCP needs to commit their GM staff in a period of anti-bot crackdown, on the scale of "Unholy Rage" or larger. Repeat steps 1 and 2 as often as needed. 3. CCP needs to SUE the publishers of bot software. There is precedent out there for such a lawsuit to win (ie: see the WOWGlider case, where Blizzard successfully sued a bot maker).
Daxine Myth	Posted - 2011.01.28 14:00:00 - [33] CCP is not going to remove botters or their ill gotten gains. Anyhow the only fair way to remove their ill gotten gains would be a complete wipe and restart of the EVE universe, this will never happen. EVE players will just have to play the game knowing that the market is a complete sham that is only partially player controlled. The EVE market is as realistic as a market on a single player console RPG in the simple fact that items are generated by automated NPC's and scripts. Yes some items are player made, sold, ratted but only a small fraction. The majority of items particularly high value null sec generated items are from bots. They might as well have every item available in infinite amounts in every station at a set price, this is the way it's going anyway. OK a bit of an exaggeration but the foundation is correct.
Infinity Ziona Cloakers	Posted - 2011.01.28 14:19:00 - [34] Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 28/01/2011 14:20:04 Supported. At least start with a damn self check of the client. Its not too hard for a program to check its own processes to detect injected code that shouldn't be there while the client is running. Checking for a large variety of constantly evolving programs running on the users computer is a lot more difficult but the former should be in every MMO that has an economy at risk of RMT and macro / botting. Other often suggested ideas can be more involved then you think and even if they worked, eliminating RMT is not possible. Best case scenario will result in removing all bots and macro's however those will very quickly be replaced by real people farmers working from developing countries where wages are horribly low. --------------------------------------------- I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.01.28 14:38:00 - [35] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 28/01/2011 14:20:04 Supported. At least start with a damn self check of the client. Its not too hard for a program to check its own processes to detect injected code that shouldn't be there while the client is running. Checking for a large variety of constantly evolving programs running on the users computer is a lot more difficult but the former should be in every MMO that has an economy at risk of RMT and macro / botting. They should be able to build into the client a block that only allows itself access to the server. Also, considering that bot programs are advertised, why can't CCP acquire copies of them themselves and build simple detection into the client to make it exit the game if any of those programs are running. Another option would be to have the client look for those programs on the PC when it launches, and if it detects them, delete them.
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2011.01.28 15:45:00 - [36] Originally by: Jack Gilligan Originally by: Infinity Ziona Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 28/01/2011 14:20:04 Supported. At least start with a damn self check of the client. Its not too hard for a program to check its own processes to detect injected code that shouldn't be there while the client is running. Checking for a large variety of constantly evolving programs running on the users computer is a lot more difficult but the former should be in every MMO that has an economy at risk of RMT and macro / botting. They should be able to build into the client a block that only allows itself access to the server. Also, considering that bot programs are advertised, why can't CCP acquire copies of them themselves and build simple detection into the client to make it exit the game if any of those programs are running. Another option would be to have the client look for those programs on the PC when it launches, and if it detects them, delete them. Not sure if its true but I read somewhere on these forums that CCP was reverse engineering some of the bot programs. Highly improbable but who knows except them. Don't think CCP would risk deleting anything from anyone's computer even if it was legal which it probably isn't, and scanning of hard disks causes a lot of consternation for a lot of people (Microsoft got a crap-load of flak for it if I remember correctly) --------------------------------------------- I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.01.28 18:46:00 - [37] Edited by: Cyaxares II on 28/01/2011 18:46:34 Originally by: James Tiberius Kirk Thumbs up if you think next CSM should bring this situation to the table and ask why is CCP openly allowing bots to flourish. no thumbs up as CCP did already post a devblog on this matter and the current CSM discussed botting and possible countermeasures with CCP at the December Summit. Just because you don't like the answer to a question doesn't mean it wasn't answered. And asking the same question over and over and over again won't change the answer. -- <Abuser> Won't the wave of intelligent bots make CCP work at least in the direction of securing the engine? <[IA]Morpheus> Of course it will, that's obvious.
Henry Haphorn Majesta Empire	Posted - 2011.01.28 20:06:00 - [38] You know, I'm getting quite annoyed with people around here accusing CCP of not wanting to get rid of bots for revenue reasons. For crying out loud, they are still cracking down on RMTs, they allowed Hulkageddon to flurish, and they started Unholy Rage. As for the PLEX, for some of you that don't remember, CCP created that system in order to draw people away from RMT sites. If that is not proof enough that CCP is concerned about the bots, then I don't know what is. And besides, they have limited resources to deal with bots on a individual level since much of their resources are still focused on the development of the game (not to mention the incoming Incarna expansion). This means that it is up to us "the capsuleers of New Eden" to take matters into our own hands. We will gather up our ganking ships, muster the largest fleets and begin an endless crusade against the macros. There will be tears, there will be wrecks, there will be hatemails, and the best part about it is that it's all legal. As for those of you who don't think this would have the slightest impact against macro users and their wallet, let me ask you this: How long do you think it will be before macro users run out of ISK after they have to constantly replace their ganked mining ships? The immediate war against macros has now evolved into a war of attrition.
Ranka Mei Caldari	Posted - 2011.01.29 00:02:00 - [39] Originally by: Henry Haphorn You know, I'm getting quite annoyed with people around here accusing CCP of not wanting to get rid of bots for revenue reasons. (...) And besides, they have limited resources to deal with bots on a individual level since much of their resources are still focused on the development of the game (not to mention the incoming Incarna expansion). Allow me to quote myself: Originally by: Ranka Mei Being online 23/7 is not a sign of being a bot per se -- mining 23/7, however, is! Since it would take CCP like 5 minutes to write a small script to see who falls into the latter category, the only logical inference must be that they don't give a rat's ass. If you come up with a solid argument to counter that, I will offer a full and utter retraction. Otherwise, I'm just gonna let the facts do the talking. --
Tiberious Thessalonia Lonestar Distribution Inc.	Posted - 2011.01.29 01:57:00 - [40] giving my support to this. Bots have been making it difficult to mine effectively at all, and there's just no way to compete with them on the market unless you're watching it like a hawk 23/7. This needs to stop.
Arx Eladios THE PAROXYSM	Posted - 2011.01.29 02:47:00 - [41] Macros/Bots are the cancer of EVE that is present everywhere in increasing numbers. This issue needs to be addressed head on by the development team. We can only hope that CSM can make them do more than making empty promises in a blog.
Henry Haphorn Gallente Majesta Empire	Posted - 2011.01.29 02:53:00 - [42] Quote: If you come up with a solid argument to counter that, I will offer a full and utter retraction. Otherwise, I'm just gonna let the facts do the talking. Even if CCP implemented the code in total secrecy, the macro programs will simply be updated to better get around the new change in the Eve client (example: mining 12/7 instead of 23/7) once someone has realized the change. As some of the knowledgeable people can tell you, macros can be for more intelligent than one can realize. That's the only example I can give you as I don't want to give macro developers any ideas. No matter how you look at it, it will ultimately be left up to the players do deal with the individual mocros in this front while CCP combats RMT on another front since the players are the ones that are way better at spotting individual macros than CCP is.
Aessoroz Nohbdy.	Posted - 2011.01.29 03:40:00 - [43] Edited by: Aessoroz on 29/01/2011 03:46:59 Edited by: Aessoroz on 29/01/2011 03:45:55 Originally by: Jack Gilligan Originally by: Infinity Ziona Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 28/01/2011 14:20:04 Supported. At least start with a damn self check of the client. Its not too hard for a program to check its own processes to detect injected code that shouldn't be there while the client is running. Checking for a large variety of constantly evolving programs running on the users computer is a lot more difficult but the former should be in every MMO that has an economy at risk of RMT and macro / botting. They should be able to build into the client a block that only allows itself access to the server. Also, considering that bot programs are advertised, why can't CCP acquire copies of them themselves and build simple detection into the client to make it exit the game if any of those programs are running. Another option would be to have the client look for those programs on the PC when it launches, and if it detects them, delete them. 1. Most of the bots are ocr based, meaning they don't inject any code, all they do is take repeated screenshots of the current frame and parse it. Also they have standardized ui layouts so the bots already know where everything is. It also takes all of five seconds to change the checksums of a program via automatic exe padding to foil any silly program checks. 2. The python based bots are very few and limited, CCP has actually caught a few(did you know CCP can remotely upload and execute code on selected users? :D) however it's near impossible to stop such "code from being injected" attempts because of how eve is compiled w/ python. See: Unreal Engine 2,2.5, 3 being hacked the same way via unreal script directly with no way for PunkBuster to stop it all. One main issue is that any code to weed out injected code can simply be overwritten in memory by higher level injected code. Essentially bots are here to stay, CCP needs to however make it a lot more difficult for them to function, I guarantee you that if after one patch the UI keeps resetting to defaults for everyone, that the mineral market will suddenly sky rocket in prices.
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2011.01.29 06:36:00 - [44] Interesting read with some mentions of EvE -> Linkage --------------------------------------------- I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Ace Echo The Shadow Raiders	Posted - 2011.01.29 07:01:00 - [45] +1
Inora Sera RENAISSANCES Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2011.01.29 07:15:00 - [46] Agreed! +1
Herping yourDerp	Posted - 2011.01.29 08:34:00 - [47] games ruined by bots- Runescape - ok this wasnt an amazing game but it had a lot of good things going for it, the kill RMT update killed in game trade as well as PVP silk road- game was hack central, i would reccomend never downloading it as 3rd parties could do crazy things such as change YOUR player shop prices. eve online- sadly its coming true, market prices fall, Bot alliances have funds to fight off any legitimate alliance out there. any random player can download a mining bot and in in a .9 all day and make a few mil with no fear unless he sells to an isk selling site.
Ranka Mei Caldari	Posted - 2011.01.29 14:40:00 - [48] Originally by: Henry Haphorn Quote: If you come up with a solid argument to counter that, I will offer a full and utter retraction. Otherwise, I'm just gonna let the facts do the talking. Even if CCP implemented the code in total secrecy, the macro programs will simply be updated to better get around the new change in the Eve client... If CCP actually did this, then all accounts currently botting 23/7 would be immediately banned. As is being taken off the field permanently, unable to enter new and improved bots. Quote: (example: mining 12/7 instead of 23/7) once someone has realized the change. And once YOU realize the magnitude of said change, you realize you just cut botting time in half. :) Not bad for 5 minutes work, eh? Quote:** As some of the knowledgeable people can tell you, macros can be for more intelligent than one can realize. The overwhelming factor which gives botters away is greed. Simply put: they bot too much to be human. And they kinda have to (that's the catch), otherwise, what's the point in doing so? That's their primary Achilles heel. Even if botters were to adapt (as I'm sure they will), that's still minus all banned botters (and their IP addresses) who currently bot 23/7, leaving the rest to mine 'only' 12/7 (also highly suspicious). That's quite a reduction. --
Henry Haphorn Gallente Majesta Empire	Posted - 2011.01.29 22:39:00 - [49] @ Ranka - We'll just have to see. But I still firmly stand by my belief that a good year or two of constant ganking on suspected macros is the most effective means of containing the macro infestation. Changing codes will do little to combat the situation. And I also stand by my belief that CCP is NOT allowing macros to flurish (as I already explained why). If anything, I think it is us (the players) who allow it. Because even though we suspect some macros, how many people ACTUALLY try to gank them immediately after finding out? Not much I bet. And the only time large amounts of people go doing just that is Hulkageddon (which lasts for barely a month every year). My proposal, Extend Hulkageddon and make it at least a 6-Month-Long event. And also, make the prizes worth the time, tears and hatemail.
Elanor Vega	Posted - 2011.01.30 12:28:00 - [50] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Interesting read with some mentions of EvE -> Linkage Interesting... and +1
Irkalia	Posted - 2011.01.30 13:24:00 - [51] Edited by: Irkalia on 30/01/2011 13:24:02 Originally by: Henry Haphorn @ Ranka - We'll just have to see. But I still firmly stand by my belief that a good year or two of constant ganking on suspected macros is the most effective means of containing the macro infestation. Changing codes will do little to combat the situation. And I also stand by my belief that CCP is NOT allowing macros to flurish (as I already explained why). If anything, I think it is us (the players) who allow it. Because even though we suspect some macros, how many people ACTUALLY try to gank them immediately after finding out? Not much I bet. And the only time large amounts of people go doing just that is Hulkageddon (which lasts for barely a month every year). My proposal, Extend Hulkageddon and make it at least a 6-Month-Long event. And also, make the prizes worth the time, tears and hatemail. If you google the Eve and Bot words together, you'll find pretty interesting results. No, you won't be able to find a bot, most likely you'll get keylogged in the process, actual bot developers don't have their websites on front. What you will find are the forums. Where you will see the tips for botting, how to do it without getting banned, what will get you banned and what will prevent you from getting banned. Obviously because of EULA, I won't go into details. Just wanted to say this. It is common knowledge that if you don't go RMT approach, CCP will pretty much let you bot as long as you want UNLESS, someone reports it. Even then you can contest the issue and get your account back. Seriously, try and google it. Then you'll actually see how ****ed the current situation is. Also, if you see a bot, report him, don't ignore it thinking it someone else would. Apparently thats the only way to force CCP to take action against them.
Random Number Generator	Posted - 2011.01.30 13:42:00 - [52]
Larkonis Trassler NibbleTek Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2011.01.30 13:45:00 - [53] To defeat the bot we must understand the bot. Outside of RMT most people bot because making Isk otherwise is dull, time consuming and not fun. Botting is also so rampant now that I've no doubt that if there was a mass banning of personal bots there would be a tremendous knock on effect to the rest of the economy. Tackling botting requires a multifaceted approach. Engineering the game in such a way so that it is harder to bot certain activities. Making these activities more fun and possibly more rewarding in the process and a gradual phased culling of the bot so that the percentage of known bots is steadily reduced over time in an effort to ween the economy off the massive inflow of botted isk. This is something I'd like to see the next CSM address and will personally champion with much vigour if I win a seat on the council.
Selinate Red Water Syndicate	Posted - 2011.01.30 13:58:00 - [54] I'll support this, not because I particularly care about bots, but because I think it would be interesting to see what comes out of CSM and CCP talking about bots.
That Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.30 14:12:00 - [55] Aggressive banning of bots will act as a deterrent factor.
Eleonora Skye	Posted - 2011.01.30 18:45:00 - [56] Support. There is also actually a lot of "Market" bots at Jita actually, easy to spot, very active and still not banned. Sometimes you manage to f*** them, but in the end, they always win...
Fournone	Posted - 2011.01.31 03:03:00 - [57] Die motherbotter die!
Harvey Norman Kairos Group	Posted - 2011.01.31 03:20:00 - [58] I. ______________ Indigo Labs Services Feedback Thread
Alexi Komanov	Posted - 2011.01.31 03:36:00 - [59] yay lower mineral prices
Avila Cracko	Posted - 2011.01.31 12:20:00 - [60] +1

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