Ive seen nearly all amarr FW corps leave for caldari (no doubt after they realised the payout they`d get after getting t4 via nulli) and the rest have just turned pirate and killing friendlies. This doesnt help anyone, not amarr and certainly not the minnies, we might as well just have a 2 faction game :( ive said before that fw was the best place for true pvp, lets kepp that going and even out the playing field for everyones sake.

Ive seen nearly all amarr FW corps leave for caldari (no doubt after they realised the payout they`d get after getting t4 via nulli) and the rest have just turned pirate and killing friendlies. This doesnt help anyone, not amarr and certainly not the minnies, we might as well just have a 2 faction game :( ive said before that fw was the best place for true pvp, lets kepp that going and even out the playing field for everyones sake.

If your still in FW for pvp it's admarible....but you're doing it wrong. Start farming.

FW used to be pvp, then it took an Inferno to the knee.

FW used to be pvp, then it took an Inferno to the knee.

as I've said before, if any of the minmatar want to grow balls and swap to Amarr it's just a few clicks away...

...that requires big great balls though

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRV3xA9Zcds

If your still in FW for pvp it's admarible....but you're doing it wrong. Start farming.

FW used to be pvp, then it took an Inferno to the knee.

well with everyone going caldari i think Gal will soon know what Amarr feels like. You let me know.

requires standings noob

I doubt, Gallente has so much alts on caldari side controlling systems flips that they can always manage to take tier 4.

well with everyone going caldari i think Gal will soon know what Amarr feels like. You let me know.

Ive seen nearly all amarr FW corps leave for caldari (no doubt after they realised the payout they`d get after getting t4 via nulli) and the rest have just turned pirate and killing friendlies. This doesnt help anyone, not amarr and certainly not the minnies, we might as well just have a 2 faction game :( ive said before that fw was the best place for true pvp, lets kepp that going and even out the playing field for everyones sake.

I dont like your chances but u can try, lets face it nulli flipped the minnies so any good alliance could pull it off

[quote=Amett]...Seriously, Gallente are gonna steamroll the Caldari once the Minmatar cash out.

Seriously, Gallente are gonna steamroll the Caldari once the Minmatar cash out.

No, because once Minmatar take the rest of Amarr space, where do you think our farmers will go?

Before Nulli cashed out, Caldari were down to a smattering of systems.

Seriously, Gallente are gonna steamroll the Caldari once the Minmatar cash out.

I think some of the old school Amarr became a bit obsessed with moaning to be quite honest. To many of its groups became very restricted in their tactics and gameplay outlook and simply failed to adapt to the demands of the warzone. Sure everyone can complain and grumble about gunless-farming-alts or whatnot but they don't really matter. ...

Actually they are all that matter for the plexing game. The actual pvpers and results of their battles, have very little impact on the occupancy war.

You mean, Minmatar farming alts in Caldari space.

alt farming characters in apocryphally-gunless t1 frigates.

I don't buy it Cearain really. I think all this talk of mobs of plexing alts is completely overblown. The reality is that you guys collectively (The amarr militia) just didn't want to defensive plex or risk basing in the warzone post Inferno.) You had the numbers (in pvpers) you had the equipment, the firepower, the capital support (which could have been used for logistics efforts and lifts between staging systems rather than sitting on silly hotdrops).

You guys had massive numerical advantage at times but you squandered it (again collectively) by having the old school aversion to plex warfare and the idea of a caste division between "those that are here for pvp" and those that are here for the occupancy war.

I think the leading organizations in the Amarr militia are the ones that lost it for you. Blaming hordes of anonymous farming alts (lots of them from the amarr) is just missing the point. If you have your leaders and fc's saying they aren't interested in the occupancy war and your oldest established corps and alliances running for the hills and away from the vulnerable warzone then you end up building a culture of defeat that breeds only losers in the long term.

I have no idea whatsoever how with Fweddit, Nulli, Tears, and your USTZ dominance you guys were incapable of rolling Huola in the last month. That was the crux of the war really - nothing to do with alt farming characters in apocryphally-gunless t1 frigates.

I think the pvpers and their battles have everything to do with Faction War because that's the morale, the mythology, the heroism and the shared experience that bind a militia together and make it a fighting force with desire to fight and win - rather than being a channel full of greedy selfish whingers that refuse to defend their own staging systems without somebody else to hold their hands.

Sorry Cearain - I think you are a decent guy - but you are WAY too fixated on the alt-plexing farming stuff and I think your strategy of staking all on a vulnerability exploit (small "e") for a grand tier 5 cashout against an undefeated Matari militia with its staging systems intact was extremely poor. You made the mistake of going for the cynical money grab rather than trying to win the war and it cost you in the long term.

When you had the advantages of Fweddit Nullli Hun and the rest you guys should have been purging Auga, Dal, Huola and driving minmatar back to Bosboger and hisec. Your infinite vulnerability really misfired in a big way. Winning faction war is not about milking the system and making alts rich - its about breaking the will of enemy pvp corps and alliances and winning the occupancy fights that matter in the home systems.

In the future I think the Amarr Militia can recover, but it needs to forget ALL the things its veterans THINK they know. You need to start from the beginning - forget any concept of alt farming meta nonsense and work on building a good place to play for those that want to take joy in Eve PVP and are prepared to fly together and build a community. It might take years - but you have to get over this alt-plexing obsession or just walk yourself - because at the moment the Amarrian old guard are the worst enemies to Amarrian recovery in this warzone.

I don't buy it Cearain really. I think all this talk of mobs of plexing alts is completely overblown. The reality is that you guys collectively (The amarr militia) just didn't want to defensive plex or risk basing in the warzone post Inferno.) You had the numbers (in pvpers) you had the equipment, the firepower, the capital support (which could have been used for logistics efforts and lifts between staging systems rather than sitting on silly hotdrops).

You guys had massive numerical advantage at times but you squandered it (again collectively) by having the old school aversion to plex warfare and the idea of a caste division between "those that are here for pvp" and those that are here for the occupancy war.

I think the leading organizations in the Amarr militia are the ones that lost it for you. Blaming hordes of anonymous farming alts (lots of them from the amarr) is just missing the point. If you have your leaders and fc's saying they aren't interested in the occupancy war and your oldest established corps and alliances running for the hills and away from the vulnerable warzone then you end up building a culture of defeat that breeds only losers in the long term.

I have no idea whatsoever how with Fweddit, Nulli, Tears, and your USTZ dominance you guys were incapable of rolling Huola in the last month. That was the crux of the war really - nothing to do with alt farming characters in apocryphally-gunless t1 frigates.

I think the pvpers and their battles have everything to do with Faction War because that's the morale, the mythology, the heroism and the shared experience that bind a militia together and make it a fighting force with desire to fight and win - rather than being a channel full of greedy selfish whingers that refuse to defend their own staging systems without somebody else to hold their hands.

Sorry Cearain - I think you are a decent guy - but you are WAY too fixated on the alt-plexing farming stuff and I think your strategy of staking all on a vulnerability exploit (small "e") for a grand tier 5 cashout against an undefeated Matari militia with its staging systems intact was extremely poor. You made the mistake of going for the cynical money grab rather than trying to win the war and it cost you in the long term.

When you had the advantages of Fweddit Nullli Hun and the rest you guys should have been purging Auga, Dal, Huola and driving minmatar back to Bosboger and hisec. Your infinite vulnerability really misfired in a big way. Winning faction war is not about milking the system and making alts rich - its about breaking the will of enemy pvp corps and alliances and winning the occupancy fights that matter in the home systems.

In the future I think the Amarr Militia can recover, but it needs to forget ALL the things its veterans THINK they know. You need to start from the beginning - forget any concept of alt farming meta nonsense and work on building a good place to play for those that want to take joy in Eve PVP and are prepared to fly together and build a community. It might take years - but you have to get over this alt-plexing obsession or just walk yourself - because at the moment the Amarrian old guard are the worst enemies to Amarrian recovery in this warzone.

You assume the "old guard" cares about system ownership. If my enjoyment comes from leading combat fleets and fighting the enemy I will focus my time and efforts doing so. You are so focused on the PVE side of FW I think you forgot why most of us are here.

Don't try to dictate how I play Eve. You can win the occupancy war all you want. I will keep doing what i have enjoyed doing the last two years.

It really doesn't matter if you care about occupancy or not Almity - you play eve your own way and good luck to you. But for those trying to claim that the system was somehow to blame - they are the one's making a big mistake. Amarr failed because its pvp'ers weren't really interested in faction war at the end of the day - just the (consequence-free) wardec.

[ Amarr failed because its pvp'ers weren't really interested in faction war at the end of the day - just the (consequence-free) wardec.

As I'm new to EVE/FW I've not idea if it's so but most people have said FW was completely different prior to Inferno.

So maybe it's not that people were only after a few wardec and were not really interested in FW so much as FW became something new and something they no longer had interest in.

No, because once Minmatar take the rest of Amarr space, where do you think our farmers will go?

Before Nulli cashed out, Caldari were down to a smattering of systems.

Seriously, Gallente are gonna steamroll the Caldari once the Minmatar cash out.

If it were only that simple. Jade I challenge you to look at the Amarr/Minmatar map and tell me that it is remotely fair. Metro is almost impossible to break into without massive numbers of around the clock plexers. For the record I did push systems. My fleets did do as you suggested. But any gains made through hard fought pvp or mindless plexing boredom are so easily reversed.

If we have a strong four hours in our timezone and the euro time zone had their strong four hours that equals eight hours of plexing time. That leaves sixteen hours for the opposing side to deplex. Not to mention the time needed to deplex our home systems.

I have in the past commended the Minmatar on their foresight before inferno. Amarr just did not have the numbers to defend systems at the time. Kamela was being pushed so hard we had no choice but to throw everything we had at it to defend. After inferno Minmatar quickly reached a high level of warzone control drawing in many PVE players looking to make isk. The Amarr got combat pilots.

We may have been able to fight the Minmatar head to head again after many months of being outnumbered and out gunned but that in no way means system control. It is the plexers who hold the big stick when it comes to sov.

Just to give you an example. From the day inferno launched till Amarr cashed out at T4 I personally made 900k LP. If this number seems low its because i spend most of my eve time in or leading fleets. Many plexes I was in I never got to reap the rewards being at the warp in. The vast majority of my LP came from kills.

Now my Minmatar alt, at 30 hours training time has made 600k LP in three evenings plexing. Once Minmatar reach T5 I will have made more isk in that short time then all the time I spend fighting and dieing for Amarr. Now Jade, tell me how this system is working as intended. I would love o hear your thoughts on it.

I don't buy it Cearain really. I think all this talk of mobs of plexing alts is completely overblown. The reality is that you guys collectively (The amarr militia) just didn't want to defensive plex or risk basing in the warzone post Inferno.) You had the numbers (in pvpers) you had the equipment, the firepower, the capital support (which could have been used for logistics efforts and lifts between staging systems rather than sitting on silly hotdrops).

You guys had massive numerical advantage at times but you squandered it (again collectively) by having the old school aversion to plex warfare and the idea of a caste division between "those that are here for pvp" and those that are here for the occupancy war.

I think the leading organizations in the Amarr militia are the ones that lost it for you. Blaming hordes of anonymous farming alts (lots of them from the amarr) is just missing the point. If you have your leaders and fc's saying they aren't interested in the occupancy war and your oldest established corps and alliances running for the hills and away from the vulnerable warzone then you end up building a culture of defeat that breeds only losers in the long term.

I have no idea whatsoever how with Fweddit, Nulli, Tears, and your USTZ dominance you guys were incapable of rolling Huola in the last month. That was the crux of the war really - nothing to do with alt farming characters in apocryphally-gunless t1 frigates.

I think the pvpers and their battles have everything to do with Faction War because that's the morale, the mythology, the heroism and the shared experience that bind a militia together and make it a fighting force with desire to fight and win - rather than being a channel full of greedy selfish whingers that refuse to defend their own staging systems without somebody else to hold their hands.

Sorry Cearain - I think you are a decent guy - but you are WAY too fixated on the alt-plexing farming stuff and I think your strategy of staking all on a vulnerability exploit (small "e") for a grand tier 5 cashout against an undefeated Matari militia with its staging systems intact was extremely poor. You made the mistake of going for the cynical money grab rather than trying to win the war and it cost you in the long term.

When you had the advantages of Fweddit Nullli Hun and the rest you guys should have been purging Auga, Dal, Huola and driving minmatar back to Bosboger and hisec. Your infinite vulnerability really misfired in a big way. Winning faction war is not about milking the system and making alts rich - its about breaking the will of enemy pvp corps and alliances and winning the occupancy fights that matter in the home systems.

In the future I think the Amarr Militia can recover, but it needs to forget ALL the things its veterans THINK they know. You need to start from the beginning - forget any concept of alt farming meta nonsense and work on building a good place to play for those that want to take joy in Eve PVP and are prepared to fly together and build a community. It might take years - but you have to get over this alt-plexing obsession or just walk yourself - because at the moment the Amarrian old guard are the worst enemies to Amarrian recovery in this warzone.

Look at the numbers. Gallente are getting steamrolled by Caldari as far as plexing goes. The Caldari currently only plex in their home space as there is no reason for them to farm more difficult minmatar plexes when there are plenty of easy Gallente plexes. The Gallente only plex in their home space as there isn't enough Amarr systems to make it worth while. The Minmatar mostly plex in their home space but there is a non-trivial amount of plexing done by groups like QCATS in Caldari systems.

VictoryPointsLastWeek" key="factionID" columns="factionID,factionName,victoryPoints"
factionName="Caldari State" victoryPoints="259517"
factionName="Minmatar Republic" victoryPoints="252289"
factionName="Gallente Federation" victoryPoints="79750"
factionName="Amarr Empire" victoryPoints="33109"

Once the Minmatar start farming Caldari systems, the combined Gallente/Minmatar plexes will outperform the Caldari but it won't be a steamroll.

For the record I did push systems. My fleets did do as you suggested. But any gains made through hard fought pvp or mindless plexing boredom are so easily reversed. If we have a strong four hours in our timezone and the euro time zone had their strong four hours that equals eight hours of plexing time. That leaves sixteen hours for the opposing side to deplex. Not to mention the time needed to deplex our home systems.

I have in the past commended the Minmatar on their foresight before inferno. Amarr just did not have the numbers to defend systems at the time. Kamela was being pushed so hard we had no choice but to throw everything we had at it to defend. After inferno Minmatar quickly reached a high level of warzone control drawing in many PVE players looking to make isk. The Amarr got combat pilots. We may have been able to fight the Minmatar head to head again after many months of being outnumbered and out gunned but that in no way means system control. It is the plexers who hold the big stick when it comes to sov.

Just to give you an example. From the day inferno launched till Amarr cashed out at T4 I personally made 900k LP. If this number seems low its because i spend most of my eve time in or leading fleets. Many plexes I was in I never got to reap the rewards being at the warp in. The vast majority of my LP came from kills.

Now my Minmatar alt, at 30 hours training time has made 600k LP in three evenings plexing. Once Minmatar reach T5 I will have made more isk in that short time then all the time I spend fighting and dieing for Amarr. Now Jade, tell me how this system is working as intended. I would love o hear your thoughts on it.

Its easy to sit on the outside and say that a group should have done certain things without knowing the full story. The weekend after we took Kourmonen, Nulli promised assistance in taking Huola/Auga the following weekend, except when the time came to evict the Minmatar from those systems they were off in nullsec fighting goons or something. They kept repeatedly reassuring the Amarr militia that they would handle various things, however, after the first week and a half or so their initial enthusiasm was gone.

Many of us within the Amarr militia realized that taking down staging systems was going to be key, but like I said before, without Nulli really giving much support on our end of the warzone, we were still facing the same numbers disadvantage we had pre-Nulli, which was a 2:1 spread if you compared militia chats.

We took Kourmonen mostly by accident, unfortunately after that event the Minny militia went into alert mode and began actively defensive plexing all their staging systems. It doesn't matter what we did US TZ regarding offensive plexing, everything we did was undone by their EU/AU TZs. Its really easy to look at things on the outside and say that we didn't work together well or miscalculate our military ability, yet the truth of it is we supported each other much more than people realize. Sure, Lost Obsession was never this dedicated saviour like so many people seem to have expected them to be, but FG was always willing to help us when we needed extra firepower or wanted to push a strategic goal. In fact, I would argue that a larger percentage of the Amarr Militia coordinated with each other than the Minmatar Militia.

You speak of the camraderie and the building of a community as something that is important to succeed, and I totally agree. I'd like to point out that out of the new guard groups that fought for the Amarr, we all have very close ties and are continuing flying together in the Calmil. The fact is, things had gotten stale on the Amarr front way before Nulli joined, they only prolonged the inevitable and gave us a chance to cash out.

In faction warfare occupancy terms you are fighting against yourself - your minmatar alt has rendered any achievement you managed on your amarrian main void because you've taken easy isk over fighting for your faction.

The system tempted you with easy money and you gave in to that temptation at the cost of the morale, camaraderie and general health of your own miltiia.

Ignoring all your other points, how does plexing a system that is already vulnerable hurt my militia? Its easy money, money that is needed to fight a war. My guys fly ruppies yours fly sfi.

*snort*. Jade's figured it all out guys. If only nobody ever had Minmatar alts, everything would be fine. There would be no cost whatsoever to absolutely everyone knowing that they're behaving like noble chumps. Every single honorable act of earning 1/16th-income wouldn't sprout any bitterness all by itself.At least the traitors can directly steal income from the ******* farmers. Nothing else hinders them.

as i have a pirate alt, this is a said thing :(

Question: Do Minmatar character receive VP for plexing Caldari space? Something to consider.

I don't buy it Cearain really. I think all this talk of mobs of plexing alts is completely overblown. The reality is that you guys collectively (The amarr militia) just didn't want to defensive plex or risk basing in the warzone post Inferno.) .

Those who complain about not getting what they didn't want anyways is what is interesting to me. Amarr on the whole, except for perhaps Ms. Yoshida who left FW a long time ago, didn't want to participate in occupancy warfare anyways. And now they complain about losing all their systems. If you want pvp, it's in FW.

The inconvenience of you having to move two jumps to a non-FW system is small compared to the significant increase in pew for the rest of us. Sorry.

Sorry Cearain - I think you are a decent guy - but you are WAY too fixated on the alt-plexing farming stuff and I think your strategy of staking all on a vulnerability exploit (small "e") for a grand tier 5 cashout against an undefeated Matari militia with its staging systems intact was extremely poor. .

Seems to be a lot of people in Amarr who plex against themselves with their own alts and still wonder why their militia can't get anywhere.

It's really not that tricky to see the problem here.

I have to agree, its kinda like shooting yourself in the foot then bitching that you cant walk anymore.

Also I cant believe that im agreeing with Jade on this but you really are just complaining about a problem you helped create by putting isk generation above all else. That combined with the relentless negativity coming from the amarr who bother to post here and I can see why you have such issues.

Ill ask you the same questions I will ask the other minmatar cheerleaders who try to claim this has anything to do with pvp. See my post above. I'm sure you will ignore it like they do. Because anything close to honest answers shows that winning occupancy has almost nothing to do with pvp.

What's this? Tons of people gaming the FW system for max isk by joining the winning side, instead of being e-bushido honourable RPers?

Shocking. Just like it when players' interest in incursions went more or less away overnight when they weren't so hilariosly overpowered isk printers anymore.

The point Jade and these other guys are trying to make is that if the alt plexing situation were straighted out, Amarr would still lose. They - Electus Matari, Star Fraction, Murietor Tribe, are doing occupancy warfare for system control, not isk. They'll be doing occupancy warfare whether or not they are at Tier 1 or Tier 5. They aren't going to failcascade when things go **** up.

It's not about e-bushido, but about people who were in Amarr militia like forever making their own Amarr LP pretty damn worthless by grinding plexes for Minmatar. Sure, they get ISK anyways, but when they log on their Amarr toon to fight all they see is people upset by everything that is going on. As a result, instead of FW being "PvP combat + ISK" it became "ISK + Derp"
for them, which isn't something they wanted in the first place. But which is something that they could try to avert even with current system.

Maybe FW is playable with current system as people (those who make sense ITT at least) suggest, but it still allows "sov" to be affected by people who have nothing to do with actual fighting. So maybe it'll indeed make sense to introduce some tweaks in FW system. I'm pretty sure there's lot of ideas floating around (contested plexes instead of defencive/offencive applying whatever gaming industry knows of "domination", "capture points", whatever you call it, gameplay; tweaking LP gain to re-rout the flow into hands of those who do actual fighting a bit etc.). Sometimes you don't need to start everything from scratch in order to make stuff work.

Don't forget Sasa as well

In any case you are completely right. Occupancy warfare involves zero pvp when one side decides to not fight. In the hinterlands it's the gunless frigates running plexes....

If you don't want to fully particpate in the occupancy warfare that's your choice. And guess what, nobody is forcing you to. I am just amazed at how much complaining there is from people who don't care about occupancy warfare to begin with. ..

My theory is that the real complaint is all about access to easy isk, not pvp, and how plexing alts are disrupting that access for Amarr FW. However, nobody wants to say it directly so they start complaining about lack of pvp, station lockouts, whatever even though PVP in FW is the best it has ever been. ..

The point Jade and these other guys are trying to make is that if the alt plexing situation were straighted out, Amarr would still lose. ..

They - Electus Matari, Star Fraction, Murietor Tribe, sasawong, are doing occupancy warfare for system control, not isk. They'll be doing occupancy warfare whether or not they are at Tier 1 or Tier 5. They aren't going to failcascade when things go **** up.
..

Most of the Amarr will only do occupancy warfare if they have a chance at a higher tier payout because all they care about is easy isk. Fweddit, Nulli, WBR were in Amarr FW for other reasons and have since bailed once the prospects of easy Amarr FW isk have dried up. My guess is that Iron Oxide and Late Night are in FW mostly for pvp, but they are rooted in Minmatar FW forever since they all "grew up" in FW. So they're staying too.

Who are the Amarr equivalents of these alliances and corporations?

However the main problem is Amar dont care about the new way FW mechanics work, until they care they will just be the same old Amar....

Jade says we should ahve gone up there and started defensive plexing the metro area. LOL how long do you think that would work for? how much more isk would minmatar earn from us letting them continue to farm these systems? How fun is it to just run into a plex and watch the enemy warp to a different plex again and again and again. If I had recomended that people would rightly think I was crazy. I don't want to be the guy who recomends we do the most boring pve gameplay- all the time.

So can someone tell me why I should care about SOV again please?

Defensive plex? In the 36 hourse after we flipped those 40 ssytems they were already on average over 50% contested. Defensive plexing against that army of alts is crazy.

I will ask you the same thing I asked vordak (and now Ezzra). What percent of plexes do you think were capped by t1 frigates?

I mean we can keep using relative terms all we want. I can say "too much" of it is farm alts. You can say things like "the real war was won with pvp."

If they are happy to do pve thats fine for them. Others want pvp and want occupancy to be a pvp mechanic.

gunless plexing frigates do seem to exist :\

was looking at a fairly backwater system (Avenod) on Eve-kill. http://eve-kill.net/?a=system_detail&sys_id=2090

A whole lot of ships killed there have been gunless plexer frigates, on both sides, some from corporations that i wouldn't have thought would do that sort of thing :s

some of them aren't alts, since they have kills in other ships too.

Not sure that they matter in the wider scheme of things, but for such a big percentage of all the pvp activity in that system to be gunless plexer frigates with 0 offensive ability seems somewhat less than ideal. :\

I'll get to some other responses later on (lunch break now) but just want to bring you up on this point. I certainly didn't suggest that you should be defensive plexing metro in the wake of your tier 4 spike. In fact the only kind of defensive plexing I'd advise anyone to do in good conscience is defensive plexing in a critical staging system where the enemy is interested in fighting to kick you out. The thrust of my critique on your strategy Cearain is that you fixated on ISK through the infinite vulnerability situation as an extremely short term tactic that immediately vanished in smoke when you achieved it, rather than using the numerical advantage you had for a time to remove critical minmatar staging systems in order to throw us back 10 jumps to our hisec.

"I don't think there is much we can do about this, but there are a ton of people farming vulnerable systems. That is why we are not at tier 5 already. I am not sure how long these larger groups want to farm.

I have no idea what this will do to the market. I really don't. Certainly the lp market can bear some amount of farming because of the sheer number of items. But there seems to be 3 merlins in every system.....

I think we may want to move things along and start focusing on getting the remaining systems vulnerable. Or by the time we do flip the systems there will litterally be trillions of lp people are cashing in. But really I don't know what to make of it."

"I had my alt plexing systems that are not vulnerable. I had him doing majors in ebolifer sirekur and ontorn. Not in eszur but around there its pretty peaceful and you are helping amarr much more than just milking an already vulnerable system."

Just read what Jade said about Huola or any FW low sec home system.

For 5 hours after the systems flipped, myself, and at lest 10 others you were in the Aset pocket contesting the systems to pull Amarr out of T4 as fast as possible. My Navy Caracal had missiles. (and I also lost it to a Pirate Talos grrrrr).


I don't know how many were by t1 frigs. I'll give you 90%. You feel better? It does not change what happened.*

About the only argument I can see for why things are the way they are is that a majority of Amarr elements decided that they did not want to employ themselves in elements they deemed unworthy of their time and effort. Even after being made to understand how that would impact the parts they did care about.*

Alts did not make choices for those people. Those people made their choices with alts. Beside, Saswong won the FW for us, remember that. *Saswong is overpowered and needs nerfed*

Each faction has at most 7 systems as home base systems. Flipping these is not going to bring about tier 5. The minmatar were riding tier 5 for ages without ever flipping the 2 base systems of kamela or sahtogas.

People who talk of "core systems" or the importance of basing in fw systems are those who don't really understand the plexing mechanic or tier system.

People who are smart realize that if you base in a fw system that just means you are going to have to waste time defensive plexing it. It becomes a tar baby that sucks your pilots time. Time that would be better spent offensive plexing or fighting enemy plexers trying to plex your own systems.

I see you are more concerned about making isk than winning a war. /thread

For me a clear goal of winning the war is hitting tier 5. But there are other indicators. How exactly does one win the war in your book?

How does one win any war in Eve? Break the will of the opposing force.

It's only important because we choose to make it important. .... It's only important if you make it important. ..

Will to what? Orbit buttons with an army of alts? That will was never there to begin with.

Note, if the Amarr center of gravity was really fights, then those Amarr alliances would not have left because there are plenty of fights available.

So wrong, on so many levels.

Note, if the Amarr center of gravity was really fights, then those Amarr alliances would not have left because there are plenty of fights available.

Also should be noted for those Amarr alliances you speak of Amarr was never a centre of gravity for them and the never were going to work as hard to keep Amarr systems as they did plexing and missioning on Minnie alts, a lot of it comes down to the fact a SFI kills a NOMEN and mods more useful making the LP store more desirable.

How does one win any war in Eve? Break the will of the opposing force.

Then shortly after this I heard nulli was going to cash out at tier 4! I was amazed at this. The areas I mention above easilly could have been added to our cashout. It was just taking some time because nulli wasn't even trying to plex there. They were just plexing vulnerable systems. But these systems were easy to plex in a merlin as there was no resistance.
So really you are criticizing the old amarr for not being able to control nulli.

What Inferno FW 2.0 actually brought to the table was a reason to utterly annihilate the enemy militia (reliable tier 5 riches)

confirming that the horde of AFK plexers was new to inferno.

Before that, we ALL had to sit and watch the timer constantly.

Funny, amarrians didn't seem to be whining back in the day when PERVS flipped most of metro using plexing alts and exploits. Shoe, other foot, sadface, hypocrisy. Lulz

they did whine, they were not willing to shoot bunkers anymore :(

What Inferno FW 2.0 actually brought to the table was a reason to join the winning faction, grind up a fucktonne of LP and wait for when it all goes T5 and then cash out, drop back to t4 and go back to grinding LP. Repeat ad nauseum.

Frankly you are just annoyed that somebody else has a moon-goo scale cash printing mechanism in play (as a victory boon for winning faction war).

But don't feel too bad - I do fully expect FW to get horrendously nerfed a year before your moon-wealth backbone is even looked at - I think the current developers are too scared of alienating their friends in 0.0 alliances to reform nullsec in any meaningful way.

I think the current developers are too scared of alienating their friends in 0.0 alliances to reform nullsec in any meaningful way.

This a thousand times.

Tier 5 is just a victory boon - its not the victory. There is no victory unless the enemy force is broken, disrupted, scattered and shattered of its morale and internal camaraderie.

What Inferno FW 2.0 actually brought to the table was a reason to utterly annihilate the enemy militia (reliable tier 5 riches) but that reason should not become the whole of your strategy. You Cearain appear to have forgotten that you need to defeat the enemy in detail before you can take his castle, drink his wine cellar and sleep with his wenches in peace.

You could say the Amarr center of gravity was greed.

Actually, you make them think that there are better things to do in Eve rather than fight for Amarr in FW. /troll"

You could say the Amarr center of gravity was greed

No, they do not. However, you can look at the historical data and see Caldari earning vp at 3x the rate of all the other militias. The Minmatar, Gallente, and Amarr were about equal. After the Amarr flipped systems, you saw Minmatar numbers shoot up. My theory is all the plexers left caldari space to farm the much easier Amarr plexs. This would mean the Minmatar and Caldari have roughly equal plexing armies and the gallente have about 1/3 of that. The Amarr used to be on par with gallente, but have since dried up.

I'll be blunt Cearain ... a child could control Nulli knowing what you did about their intentions.

When they started leaving systems vulnerable pending a push to tier 5 in a single night strategy you guys should simply have flipped those systems to prevent Nulli approaching their goal and told their leadership that you were prepared to go along with their plan only after they eradicated the minmatar stronghold systems.

There is nothing Nulli can do to stop you messing with their plan and eventually they'd either have to do what you asked or leave FW on a disappointing tier 2-3 outcome.

Same goes for any interfering nullsec power really.

confirming that the horde of AFK plexers was new to inferno.

Before that, we ALL had to sit and watch the timer constantly.

Funny, amarrians didn't seem to be whining back in the day when PERVS flipped most of metro using plexing alts and exploits. Shoe, other foot, sadface, hypocrisy. Lulz

3/4 militias have pvp and isk. 3/4 militias can shut the **** up about how amazing they are for having chosen pvp over isk any day now. No, you haven't chosen between them, because you get them both. Given that pvp is an isk sink, I'd think that it wouldn't take long at all for you notice that this greed vs. pvp talk is ludicrous - that nobody can ever eschew isk-making to war-fighting with the tone that you keep hitting. You need one for the other. But maybe you don't even read what you type.

[quote=X Gallentius]no one since ______ left

Are you seriously trying to guilt him into saying it was his fault, when CCP made a game mechanic which is gameable as all hell?

A ***** move is a ***** move whether or not it is profitable. It's like betting against the sports team you play on. If enough people do it, it pretty much forces a realization that there isn't a team, just a bunch of greedy bitches trying to get their fingers in a pie. At that point everything falls apart and you get Amarr Militia.

I mean c'mon now, you're not making any money off these plexes. You can't pay your bills in ISK, at least not efficiently, you'd do better flipping burgers. There is nothing real in this video game that merits making decisions based on their financial merit, unless you derive your enjoyment from roleplaying that sort of thing. When you give up team spirit for ISK, you're giving up something of value for something without value, it's a terrible trade.

You can farm your way to a titan gaming the FW system, but it won't do you a lick of good without a fleet to bridge.

I always find it so cute when people look at other people saying "**** this, I'm going to abuse the **** out of this mechanic to get an advantage", and actually, unironically, start to ***** and moan about how they're "not playing the game right" or "not being honourable".

People have flocked to hisec L4s for years instead of doing anoms or ratting in nullsec, not because it's what someone tell them to do, but because it means they get to spend less time doing boring **** (shoot red crosses), they can relax more while doing it (they don't have to watch local all the time, they don't have to deal with logistics, they don't have to replace their ship when they aren't paying attention at the wrong monent, etc etc etc), and it's just all over a much more pleasant gaming experience. Can we ***** and moan about them "not playing the game right" or "not being honourable" (by not being readily available in nullsec to be shot by ~elite pvp~ roamers)? Sure, we can do that, but we'd look like absolute dorks, because this is the game CCP has designed.

People have abused titans in literally every iteration they've been in since they were first launched. Sure, we can ***** and moan about how it's a cheap tactic to use remote AOE DDs, on-grid AOE DDs, DDs to take out all the logistics on one side, or tracking titans to lay waste to whole fleets with impunity, but can we really point to a titan pilot and say "you're a bad person for playing with the tools CCP gave you"? No.

Just like we can't tell people they're bad people for saying "you know what, I'm going to just farm the **** out of minmatar and cash out when they hit T5, and I'll be rich as ****", because they're using the game mechanics which CCP have put into the game.

***** about the game mechanics, they're what's bad here. And take your indignant "you're just greedy, you don't want to fight honourably" e-bushido bullshit and get the **** out of here.

Doesn't fly dude. If the mechanics were the cause, it'd have long since happened up in Cal/Gal space as well.. but it hasn't. We've had months now for once side to achieve dominance and drive the other out, instead we have pushes back and forth when one side or the other wants to dump LP, and steady fighting. Despite swarms of minmatar-tagged LP farmers which should have, by your logic, long since flipped our space as well.

Why? Because we actually want to fight. We show up to fight, and not just in logiblobs with a minimum of ten Guardians. Amarr run their mouths about wanting to fight but push come to shove, they'd rather run no-gun minmatar alts to increase the number in their wallet. Then they cry on the boards about how they're so terribly abused, and everything is just so terribly unfair, and it must be the mechanics that are broken, because they know in their hearts that they are elite PvPers and if they're losing the game must be rigged!

Sorry dude, but the effective range of an excuse is zero meters.

Doesn't fly dude. If the mechanics were the cause, it'd have long since happened up in Cal/Gal space as well.. but it hasn't. We've had months now for once side to achieve dominance and drive the other out, instead we have pushes back and forth when one side or the other wants to dump LP, and steady fighting. Despite swarms of minmatar-tagged LP farmers which should have, by your logic, long since flipped our space as well.

Why? Because we actually want to fight. We show up to fight, and not just in logiblobs with a minimum of ten Guardians. Amarr run their mouths about wanting to fight but push come to shove, they'd rather run no-gun minmatar alts to increase the number in their wallet. Then they cry on the boards about how they're so terribly abused, and everything is just so terribly unfair, and it must be the mechanics that are broken, because they know in their hearts that they are elite PvPers and if they're losing the game must be rigged!

Sorry dude, but the effective range of an excuse is zero meters.

So your analysis is that because the gal/cal faction have apparently not clued into this fact yet

So your analysis is that because the gal/cal faction have apparently not clued into this fact yet, and as such you conclude that there's nothing wrong with the mechanics at all, just like remote AOE DDs were working as intended, and as such the only thing that needs to happen is that amarr needs to harden the **** up.

This is a fallacious line of thought, and one which'll become readily apparent to you soon enough. It's a mechanic which is easy enough to exploit for hilarious isk gains, and sooner or later even you'll have to face this.

No, we simply hate each other too much to go for rational behavior of amassing **** ton of space isk. As added bonus prove Ayn Rand to be nothing but a crazy *****, as is right and just

And liable to end up unhappy, like notable chunks of Amarr Militia.

Sadly, the 'notable chunks of the Amarr Militia' are the people to busy to literally do anything of any consequence except shoot at each other on an undock or to criticize the actions and effectiveness of fellow militia mates; The most bitter of bitter justify this by swinging around wild excuses about Link Alts, Online Titan Pilots and whatever they spout off in any attempt to not look like chumps by station spinning.

They also love to spout off at length about how whatever group they lost an argument in Militia chat with hasn't had any impact on the warzone.

Fweddit & Friends Leave... didn't want Kourmonen, Kamela or Sosala anyway.


Gee Eff Minmatar Bros.

Sadly, the 'notable chunks of the Amarr Militia' are the people to busy to literally do anything of any consequence except shoot at each other on an undock or to criticize the actions and effectiveness of fellow militia mates; The most bitter of bitter justify this by swinging around wild excuses about Link Alts, Online Titan Pilots and whatever they spout off in any attempt to not look like chumps by station spinning.

They also love to spout off at length about how whatever group they lost an argument in Militia chat with hasn't had any impact on the warzone.

Fweddit & Friends Leave... didn't want Kourmonen, Kamela or Sosala anyway.


Gee Eff Minmatar Bros.

Doesn't fly dude. If the mechanics were the cause, it'd have long since happened up in Cal/Gal space as well.. but it hasn't. We've had months now for once side to achieve dominance and drive the other out, instead we have pushes back and forth when one side or the other wants to dump LP, and steady fighting. Despite swarms of minmatar-tagged LP farmers which should have, by your logic, long since flipped our space as well.

Why? Because we actually want to fight. We show up to fight, and not just in logiblobs with a minimum of ten Guardians. Amarr run their mouths about wanting to fight but push come to shove, they'd rather run no-gun minmatar alts to increase the number in their wallet. Then they cry on the boards about how they're so terribly abused, and everything is just so terribly unfair, and it must be the mechanics that are broken, because they know in their hearts that they are elite PvPers and if they're losing the game must be rigged!

Sorry dude, but the effective range of an excuse is zero meters.

Faction Warfare, where the LP store is an ISK faucet and PVP is an ISK sink.

Wrong. The LP store is an ISK sink, and PVP is an ISK faucet.

My experience with the amarr militia was not the same as yours. But then I dont talk in militia chat very much.

Anyway what the minmatar do is what is most important to me. Because whether or not they are online decides whether I get fights. I don't have allot of complaints in that department so I am glad my corp is staying here.

Getting fights wasn't really the issue, and to be quite honest, I don't think I've ever engaged in a single conversation in Militia chat operating even in a realm remotely close to informative or helpful. Amarr Militia chat was literally the Special Olympics of Bads going out of the way to feel special by arguing the finer points of split weapon system Cormorants and how to not **** fit thrashers.

Met quite a few decent Minmatar folks, and had good times in comms with a few (Vordak, Trans, The ALWAYS Happy Ninlarr, and Poetic)- getting fights wasn't the issue; the quality of life for newbro's was rough. They just didn't have the same ISK making oppurtunities, not to mention a half-assed warzone and even at t4 with 3 months of accumulated loyalty points a sub-par LP store.

After we cashed out and whored on some cap kills, we just had absolutely no incentive to stay. It was good times, but were back to thriving under the Caldari Banner. Fweddit will probably make skirmishes into Minmatar Space, and we still have an office quite full of ships out there so it's only a matter of time before we go back and welp gloriously.

stuff

Was pally with and credulous of the enemy from day zero. Was suspicious of and confrontational (to really absurd degrees) with allies from day zero. Sets them red, makes up absolutely ridiculous **** whole cloth about them, spies on them, emo-trips about how "it's about respect", blabbity blah, threatens to have TEST mains destroy them, and so on ad nauseum. ***** continuously on Militia chat, to the tune of their members all spamming the same thing for hours.

And then, time passes.

'Inexplicably', still has a good impression of enemy but is just shaking his head over how ungrateful former allies were.

This is the short story: FWeddit descended from the heavens expecting daily ****-suckings from a grateful and fearful militia on its knees. Alas, they only got a warm-to-normal welcome. Occasionally they'd get the kind of grief anyone does. Occasionally people would dare to go along with their self-deprecating propaganda and say unforgivable things.

I seriously pity the Caldari for having you. I seriously pity your newbies for soaking in your culture.

--- woah, woah, wait! What am I saying?? Forget all of that. Read this:

Thank you so much for leaving Amarr. Personally, me to you. You're a cool guy. I forgive you for everything. I hope you find it in you to forgive the lowly and pathetic Caldari for their occasional failures to understand that any self-deprecation from your members is just a "pretend-to-be-Goons" cultural strategy that they wouldn't understand. They may stop sucking your **** from time to time, but I'm sure you're even better at that than they are, so please be the bigger man.

So please don't come back. We're just not worthy. I mean, I rejoined a few days after I heard you left, so now we're even less worthy :-(

Getting fights wasn't really the issue, and to be quite honest, I don't think I've ever engaged in a single conversation in Militia chat operating even in a realm remotely close to informative or helpful. Amarr Militia chat was literally the Special Olympics of Bads going out of the way to feel special by arguing the finer points of split weapon system Cormorants and how to not **** fit thrashers.

Met quite a few decent Minmatar folks, and had good times in comms with a few (Vordak, Trans, The ALWAYS Happy Ninlarr, and Poetic)- getting fights wasn't the issue; the quality of life for newbro's was rough. They just didn't have the same ISK making oppurtunities, not to mention a half-assed warzone and even at t4 with 3 months of accumulated loyalty points a sub-par LP store.

After we cashed out and whored on some cap kills, we just had absolutely no incentive to stay. It was good times, but were back to thriving under the Caldari Banner. Fweddit will probably make skirmishes into Minmatar Space, and we still have an office quite full of ships out there so it's only a matter of time before we go back and welp gloriously.

Wrong. The LP store is an ISK sink, and PVP is an ISK faucet.

Sorry I was just trying to sarcastically highlight what other people have been seriously posting in here

If you want to talk about anybody's wallet, and anybody's ability to finance pvp, then the LP store is just one of many ways to acquire isk and pvp is a major way to lose it.

You're the ex-Amarrian Retribution guy right? Man, I remember when ARETR used to have some class and good pilots. Good old days, eh?

well seems the amarr is having issues. perhaps those corps need some pew pew experience. come out to 0.0 with me and i teach you.

Was pally with and credulous of the enemy from day zero. Was suspicious of and confrontational (to really absurd degrees) with allies from day zero. Sets them red, makes up absolutely ridiculous **** whole cloth about them, spies on them, emo-trips about how "it's about respect", blabbity blah, threatens to have TEST mains destroy them, and so on ad nauseum. ***** continuously on Militia chat, to the tune of their members all spamming the same thing for hours.

'Inexplicably', still has a good impression of enemy but is just shaking his head over how ungrateful former allies were.

This is the short story: FWeddit descended from the heavens expecting daily ****-suckings from a grateful and fearful militia on its knees. Alas, they only got a warm-to-normal welcome. Occasionally they'd get the kind of grief anyone does. Occasionally people would dare to go along with their self-deprecating propaganda and say unforgivable things.

I seriously pity the Caldari for having you. I seriously pity your newbies for soaking in your culture.

Thank you so much for leaving Amarr. Personally, me to you. You're a cool guy. I forgive you for everything. I hope you find it in you to forgive the lowly and pathetic Caldari for their occasional failures to understand that any self-deprecation from your members is just a "pretend-to-be-Goons" cultural strategy that they wouldn't understand. They may stop sucking your **** from time to time, but I'm sure you're even better at that than they are, so please be the bigger man.

So please don't come back. We're just not worthy. I mean, I rejoined a few days after I heard you left, so now we're even less worthy :-(

I'm not in FW to demonize the **** out of the people on the opposing faction, we are looking for the same thing- you know, to kill each other. You're entire organization was full of elitist try hards that accomplished very little outside of elite forum/blog pvp; the only thing you did better than forum warrior was whine about how unfair it is for the Amarr Militia blah blah blah...

I, at the time (before 7th fleet ran off) was a TEST main never and threatened anyone in FW with TEST intervention. I did however refuse to cooperate with 7th fleet because we were fundamentally different; as our culture was based around having fun and hazing nerds- yours was about being risk averse carebears with daily ship spinning contests.

Also- Militia chat is a cesspool. Take your roleplaying somewhere else scrub.



I wasn't ungrateful for you- the best times in Amarr FW were after your little troop of bitter and mad left, and went to Caldari. There were previously unseen levels of cooperation and coordination among the remaining militia, to not only OPLEX but DPLEX, capture systems, and eventually push for t4 warzone control.

Our little 'shitfit t1 thrashers' will never accomplish anything though- right?



Actually- we popped up from out of nowhere, comprised mainly of newbies and alts, and ventured forth to carve a name for ourselves, after literally three weeks of your alliance members telling us how we were doing everything wrong. We jointly said '**** You' and did our own thing (quite well at that).

The two 7th Fleet fleets my guys participated in were followed by random members getting frustrated, leaving, and coming back to our comms muttering "Never again... never ever, ever again".





Just more hurf blurf from some idiot that doesn't understand people want to log in and have fun.

Now you're a good story teller. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Every single line in your post made me laugh. Fiction is funnier than truth and your post is hilarious. Bravo.

Given that my entire alliance is chock full of bumbling idiots, this was precisely the reaction I expected of you. Never stop trying Fweddit, no one, anywhere will appreciate you.

Keep Searching! No not believing in yourself!

oh and every time i hear that someone posts this in local i die laughing.

What, was that a serious criticism? You're just playing with words. If the context of the amount of isk in the game, and monetary inflation and deflation, and places where isk is created out of thin air vs. destroyed -- i.e., a whole lot of **** that's not relevant to the conversation, then yes, LP stores are isk sinks (they destroy isk, and merely create 'stuff', which we are never unhappy to have more of in any economy) and PVP is an isk faucet (insurance creates isk, and the lost modules are merely lost stuff). If you want to talk about anybody's wallet, and anybody's ability to finance pvp, then the LP store is just one of many ways to acquire isk and pvp is a major way to lose it.

This is not true. The only reason Caldari hasn't ROFL-stomped the Gallente as far as plexing goes is the Minmatar farmers. All of the farmers went to either Caldari or Minmatar. Just look at the VP numbers. The Gallente numbers are accurate as there is virtually no Gallente plexing in Amarr systems because there aren't any. The Caldari numbers are accurate because there is no need to plex in harder Minmatar systems when there are plenty of easier Gallente plexes to farm. The Minmatar numbers are completely inaccurate because most of the farmers plexed Caldari systems because that was really all there was. However, after the Amarr T4 push, the Minmatar VPs surged 3x to roughly equal the Caldari numbers and we got to briefly see the real power of the Minmatar plexing army. They all left the harder Caldari plexes to briefly farm the Amarr plexes until they were gone. This tells us that Caldari and Minmtar are about equal in terms of plexing power, with Gallente being about 1/3 of what Caldari plex.

The only reason it collapsed this way was because the Gallente/Caldari front has more systems, there was a more even balance before inferno, and the Gallente were able to hold a little bit of ground long enough for the Minmatar to save them. If the Gallente collapsed before the Amarr, we would see the same thing in reverse. That being Caldari owning all Gallente systems and a stale-mate on the Amarr/Minmatar front.

1 Nennamaila (0.3) 563
2 Akidagi (0.4) 276
3 Hikkoken (0.3) 144
4 Vlillirier (0.3) 99
5 Todifrauan (0.1) 92
6 Enaluri (0.3) 87
7 Pynekastoh (0.2) 73
8 Aldranette (0.4) 65
9 Arnstur (0.1) 62
10 Heydieles (0.3) 41

Yes but those situations are transfers of ISK. The LP store gets other players to transfer ISK to you, PVP is the transfer of ISK from you to other people.

Calling the LP store a faucet / source and pvp a sink is still factually wrong.

And while the LP store enables you to get an ISK transfer from other players, transforming the LPs into modules or whatever is an isk sink.

People aren't going to know you're using a technical economic definition of 'faucet' and 'sink' unless you're having a discussion in the Market subforum, or you tell them. Intuitively, people assess activities by how they impact them, not the economy, and it's not reasonable to expect them to do otherwise.

90% of QCATS kills were in Gallente/Caldari FW... but all your VP show up under the Minmatar banner.

Further edit: but I will admit that it's telling that the farmers have mostly flocked to the militias that get plexes without missile boats.

]
The VP numbers are distorted by Gallente groups like QCATS re-tagging to Minmatar to take advantage of T5 dumps (and arguably more useful LP store), while still maintaining a combat presence in Gallente/Caldari FW. .