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Non-exploitable bounty system.

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Drebble Gallente North Star Networks The Kadeshi	Posted - 2011.01.30 13:25:00 - [1] I love the idea of bounty hunting. Below is a proposal for a tweak of the bounty system. Goals #1 A working bounty system has to be non-exploitable; the player with a bounty on his head should not be able to profit from it in any way, for example by having a neutral alt collect the bounty. #2 It would also be nice if having a price on your head forces you to be careful with who you trust, as your pirate friends may do you in for the bounty. The proposal The payout from a bounty kill can only be as high as the isk lost. The isk loss takes into consideration the current market/contract value of the destroyed items and any insurance payout, so that the payout accurately reflects the net loss. Item value is calculated from current market and public contract prices, cropping the top and bottom extremes to avoid scam contracts and clueless sellers. If a price cannot be found it is set to 0. If this leads to wildly inappropriate payouts for certain extremely rare items, it is possible to petition it and have a GM look at the price history of the item using the magic tools we know all GMs have at their disposal. Example: The evil space pirate Evilly E. Piratus has a bounty of 100.000.000 ISK on his head. Piratus is flying a shuttle when he gets blown up at a gate camp. The market price for a shuttle at that time is 50.000. The killer(s) gets 50.000 ISK and the bounty on Piratus is now 99.950.000. A bit later Piratus is showing off his faction fitted Dramiel to some corp mates. One of them is a little short on cash and takes the opportunity when Piratus comes to a stop with MWD on to blow his ship to pieces. The total ISK loss is more than the current bounty, so the traitorous pirate (who shall remain nameless to protect his identity) would recieve the remaining 99.950.000 ISK. Piratus is now bounty-free. Consequences of proposal * You can no longer collect your own bounty in any meaningful way. * Having a high bounty on your head means you have to be very careful when flying expensive ships. Someone near you might decide to cash in. * Seeing a high bounty in an expensive ship is very tempting - you get the surviving modules AND a bounty payout for the destroyed items. Possible problems * The calculations of market value may sometimes provide higher bounty payouts than the actual cost to replace lost items. Hopefully this will be such a small and unpredictable difference that it cannot be exploited. If testing reveals it is a factor then the payout is changed to a percentage of the calculated isk loss, for example 90% or 75%, in order to make sure the mechanic is unexploitable. Please let me know what you think, Drebble
Frecator Dementa Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.01.30 20:10:00 - [2] 1) you have to take the insurance level of the victim's ship into account ie: uninsured ship gets you more payout from the bounty, fully insured T1 ship gets you very little 2) you might also want to take into account the cost of the clone the victim lost when podding him/her ---- <sig goes here>
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2011.01.30 21:27:00 - [3] I think this could work. I have to admit to be confounded by trying to find a good fix for bounty previously.. but this is a very good start.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2011.01.30 21:35:00 - [4] What you are suggesting, attaching bounty to hull instead of pod, is old hat as it were. Numerous similar ideas have been floated where bounties and kill-rights are merged to create a bounty hunting occupation. And yes it can always be 'exploited'; Pirate A insures BS, Alt shoots BS = difference pocketed from bounty pool.
Rastigan Caldari Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.01.30 22:16:00 - [5] You get a bounty for blowing up pods, not ships. Good luck doing that in highsec/lowsec. Also pods cost upwards of 20 million isk after a while so its not like they are getting something for nothing. Most people like the bounties anyways since its a status symbol (they probably put the bounty on themselves).
Drebble Gallente North Star Networks The Kadeshi	Posted - 2011.01.30 22:38:00 - [6] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida And yes it can always be 'exploited'; Pirate A insures BS, Alt shoots BS = difference pocketed from bounty pool. The bounty payout is related to all destroyed items, hull, modules, cargo, implants, etc. And as I write in the original post, insurance is included in the net loss calculation, so in your example Pirate A would lose X isk, and Pirate B would gain the same amount of isk (or less, if the bounty payout is less than 100% of the damage done, as I discuss at the end of my original post). No profit. This loss-based payout is what makes my suggestion difficult to exploit. //Drebble
Drebble Gallente North Star Networks The Kadeshi	Posted - 2011.01.30 22:42:00 - [7] Edited by: Drebble on 30/01/2011 22:45:51 Originally by: Rastigan You get a bounty for blowing up pods, not ships. My suggestion takes into consideration all destroyed items, not just the pod. Ship, modules, ammo, cargo, implants etc. As for shooting people in high-sec, that will have to be done the old fashioned way using expendable ships. Unless CCP introduces some mechanic that lets bounty hunters attack targets in high-sec, which I find unlikely. //Drebble
Fournone	Posted - 2011.01.31 02:05:00 - [8] Not a perfect idea, but its a start. Very exploit proof aswell. Since pods are currently the only way to get bounty and they are a pain to catch, it does sounds like a good idea. Usually the guy just hops in a jump clone and get his alt to go pod him.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.01.31 11:20:00 - [9] a loss based bounty calculation is the only one which makes sense, because the game cant differ between alts and entirely unrelated persons ingame. The difficulty is to calculate the loss amount in a way secure from easy manipulation. Average price for all lost items accross all eve > 0.0 regions could work IMO, but technically very expensive.
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2011.01.31 12:04:00 - [10] Edited by: Destination SkillQueue on 31/01/2011 12:05:47 Originally by: Robert Caldera a loss based bounty calculation is the only one which makes sense, because the game cant differ between alts and entirely unrelated persons ingame. The difficulty is to calculate the loss amount in a way secure from easy manipulation. Average price for all lost items accross all eve > 0.0 regions could work IMO, but technically very expensive. CCP are already doing this with the insurance system. Originally by: dev blog Yes, ship insurance will now revalue itself periodically based on a trimmed mean of the ship's manufacturing materials global market weighted average prices. This means the insurance quote when you are buying insurance will be now estimated and may change if the payout occurs during the next insurance period. The point being the information needed is already being monitored by the game and there is an existing system already using similar kind of mechanism. It will require some work to be altered to work with the new system, but it's not like you have to create everything from scratch just for the bounty system. Granted now the calculation has to be done for most market and contract items, but it's not like it has to be redone very often. The bounty doesn't have to be paid immediately either, so I can't see it causing any insuperable issues.

TharOkha	Posted - 2011.01.31 19:13:00 - [11] This is very interestig idea. Signed/
ZeJesus	Posted - 2011.01.31 19:18:00 - [12] Make it so that bounty can only be put on ppl. with at least 2 million SPs. When someone is flagged as a wanted criminal and somebody pods him make the pirate automatically lose 1M SP.
Drebble Gallente North Star Networks The Kadeshi	Posted - 2011.02.01 07:49:00 - [13] Originally by: ZeJesus Make it so that bounty can only be put on ppl. with at least 2 million SPs. When someone is flagged as a wanted criminal and somebody pods him make the pirate automatically lose 1M SP. Please stay on topic, and discuss the proposal made in the OP.
Mei'Keen Banks	Posted - 2011.02.01 08:45:00 - [14] wow, a good idea. waaaaay better than the current system, and sounds more fair tbh. this has my approval, /signed
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Veto Corp	Posted - 2011.02.01 11:50:00 - [15] I like this idea.
Mori Airuta Caldari Licentia Cavo Industrials	Posted - 2011.02.01 16:38:00 - [16] Finally good idea about bounties. I think CCP should see this. /signed ------------------------------------------------ The Mane Problem
Drebble Gallente North Star Networks The Kadeshi	Posted - 2011.02.05 17:41:00 - [17] Updated with the folliwing thought: One interesting idea would also be if Concord placed a small bounty on a player everytime he destroyed a ship in hi- or low-sec. Like 10% of the damage done or something. I am not ready to include it in the proposal yet, but it would lead to some interesting changes to the pirate and suicide gank lifestyle. And Concord is already handing out "money from nowhere" for NPC kills, so I dont think it would be a problem economically. Pleayers could also add their own bounties of course. Thoughts?
Jay Otto	Posted - 2011.02.06 12:09:00 - [18] Originally by: Drebble Updated with the folliwing thought: One interesting idea would also be if Concord placed a small bounty on a player everytime he destroyed a ship in hi- or low-sec. Like 10% of the damage done or something. I am not ready to include it in the proposal yet, but it would lead to some interesting changes to the pirate and suicide gank lifestyle. And Concord is already handing out "money from nowhere" for NPC kills, so I dont think it would be a problem economically. Pleayers could also add their own bounties of course. Thoughts? Without this addition it sounded to me like the system might be used to claim a nice market value for items in low sec. i.e. no point in going to high sec to sell it, when you can simply fit a shiny module to a cheap ship and detonate it, as long as the module value was higher than ship + clone, and clone costs could be kept low with a "bounty" suicide character with no skills or training on the same account. Given that the money value of the buy contracts would be paid by Concord/the bounty placer, it would allow a periodic conversion of a pirates bounty into ISK through the destruction of modules, without affecting the buy order! So the price can be pushed up by manipulating the buy orders with a high minimum quantity, in the knowledge that they can be cancelled once the bounties are paid. With the 10% addition, the money is guaranteed to be available for the pirates to draw from, rather than relying upon angry new players placing the value of their destroyed industrial on the pirate in question. However, I think you are right about the bounty system not looking very usuable, and suggestions for reworking it are good! (So I apologise for trying to shoot holes in this one)..
Stegas Tyrano GREY COUNCIL	Posted - 2011.02.06 14:35:00 - [19] Edited by: Stegas Tyrano on 06/02/2011 14:35:53 Maybe a small modification. Make it 75% of market value or lower. That way it takes more kills/more expensive kills to get rid of said bounty. Also stick this in the Assembly Hall after you've perfected it. I'd definately sign it.
Kepakh	Posted - 2011.02.06 15:19:00 - [20] Originally by: Drebble The payout from a bounty kill can only be as high as the isk lost. This makes pretty much whole thing meaningless. You will get the bounty off your head without suffering any ISK loss. You proposal will not make the system non-exploitable, just non-profitable at the expense of dramatically lowered incentives for bounty hunting.

Drebble Gallente North Star Networks The Kadeshi	Posted - 2011.02.06 20:29:00 - [21] Re: Jay Otto, Stegas Tyrano and Kepakh above: If you look towards the end of the original post, I suggest that the proposal may need to pay less than 100% of the calculated net loss. One of the figures I suggest is 75%, just as Stegas does above. I think I will put it in the final suggestion to avoid the issues raised by you guys. I also think my though of concord paying bounty has too many weak spots to be usable, and it also conflicts with the idea of EVE as player-driven. Thanks for your feedback, keep it coming. //Drebble
Koniss	Posted - 2011.02.06 21:15:00 - [22] actually as a semi fix to bounty system id like to see the bounty bounded to the clone the player is using when the bounty get issued, this at least would avoid the reciver of the bounty to jump to a cheap clone w/o implants to collect the bounty. so if a player manage to put a bounty to a player when he's using pricey implants it will be hardly worth to kill itself with an alt. in this way the bounty also would disappear when the player jump to another clone and reappear when the player jump to clone with the bounty (only bad thing i can think about this is the bounty system could be exploited to find what clone is using judging from the bounty)
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2011.02.06 21:27:00 - [23] Originally by: Koniss actually... That is one of the very broken things about the current system, one which the OP's suggestion gets rid of: Bounty on the Pod. Pods are nigh impossible to kill outside of bubble land, which incidentally is probably not where people with bounties spend most of their time. At this point any change to the archaic bounty system is a good change, OP's is just the most viable seen so far if you ask me.
Sir PatrickMoore Caldari Beggar's banquet	Posted - 2011.02.06 22:30:00 - [24] This is very similar to my own ideas for improving the bounty system, so rather than start a new thread I'll add them here for comment and discussion: - Bounty Hunting to become a new mini-profession with a new 'Bounty Hunting' skill. - Bounty Hunters need to register for the player bounties they want to collect. Each level of the bounty hunting skill allows for an additional concurrent registered bounty to collect. Registration is done via the bounty office where the hunter can see available bounties and choose which ones to register for. Registrations can be made and changed via the bounty office at any time. Once registered for a bounty the hunter should be able to drop the registration at any time, in case for example the 'hunted' player is offline for a while, or even if the hunter has bitten off more than he can chew and needs to re-register for an easier target. - Being registered to collect a bounty allows the bounty hunter to destroy the players ship legally in all security sectors. This is to increase the risk associated with having a bounty on you, and to avoid the current problem with being anti-pirate in general: that of the associated security status loss. Podding the target is still considered illegal and suffers the same penalties as now in highsec and lowsec. - The hunted player is notified as to how many registered hunters are after them, but not who they are. This is not a significant disadvantage compared to the current system where everyone is (potentially) a hunter. However, there should be an overview setting to show hostile hunters when they are on grid with the hunted player. - A legitimate bounty kill is one where one or more bounty hunters who have registered to hunt the target are included on the killmail. - As per the op, the amount of bounty payment made is 75% of the loss inflicted on the target. This amount is divided equally between all bounty hunters who are registered to collect the bounty and are involved in the kill. Any payments to other players involved in the kill are up to the registered bounty hunters. This allows for co-operation or competition between bounty hunters as they see fit. - Insurance payouts for bounty kills are voided, or reduced by the amount of the payout made. This increases the potential risk associated with having a substantial bounty. - Optionally, although the hunted player does not know who the bounty hunters are until he finds himself on grid with them, perhaps registered bounty hunters should be able to see a list of other hunters with the same registration as that again will allow for more co-operation or competition between hunters.
Kepakh	Posted - 2011.02.06 22:47:00 - [25] Originally by: Drebble I suggest that the proposal may need to pay less than 100% of the calculated net loss. It does not matter. Your suggestion is as flawed as current system where incentives for bounty hunting are ruined by bounty claiming mechanics, opposed to your system where claiming mechanics are ruining the incentives for bounty hunting. Neither system is better, both are equally bad.
Drebble Gallente North Star Networks The Kadeshi	Posted - 2011.02.06 23:17:00 - [26] Edited by: Drebble on 06/02/2011 23:20:47 Originally by: Kepakh Neither system is better, both are equally bad. I dont understand you. The old system * You must kill the pod to claim bounty. * You can jump clone to an implant-free clone, and have an alt collect 100% of bounty, minus clone cost. My proposal * You must kill the ship or the pod to claim bounty. * Bounty payout is (as of my last post) capped at 75% of actual total lost isk(). This means you can, by destroying ships worth 25% of the bounty, get rid of the bounty (NO profit). () Including ship, modules, cargo, implants and/or clone, with any insurance payout subtracted. So you want to kill the criminal when he is in a expensive ship. If you had a 2 billion bounty on your head, would you pay 500 million to get rid of it, or just try to avoid bounty hunters? I may be biased, but I see my proposal as a significant improvement of the old system. Anything other than a loss-based payout system can and will be exploited.* //Drebble
Ephemeron BeerTia Maniacs	Posted - 2011.02.06 23:18:00 - [27] In my opinion, the main thing to make bounty worth it is to allow EVERYONE to attack a person with bounty on their had. Everyone can initiate aggro, but the guy with bounty can only respond to aggro, not initiate it (in high sec). Basically it's a global kill right. That basic feature should be added to whatever other fixes people propose with regards to payouts.
Drebble Gallente North Star Networks The Kadeshi	Posted - 2011.02.06 23:57:00 - [28] Originally by: Sir PatrickMoore A very interesting post. In my original proposal I figured that bounties would be collected in Hi-Sec the usual way - suicide ganks. However, some form of Bounty Hunter Licence would be very interesting, immersion-wise and to increase the danger of having a price on your head. //Drebble
Donnovich Vacano	Posted - 2011.02.07 04:16:00 - [29] Several problems with your plan: 1: The pirate could eject from their ship so the full bounty from being claimed 2: If insurance is factored into to payout then people could abuse this by flying a ship which has insurance that is higher than the bounty. 3: The pirate would still be able to make money by making the ship themselves for much less then the bounty. Solution for all of these problems: Make bounties pay out in loyalty points. They are non transferable. The only way to get enough to be of any value would be to be an active anti pirate. Plus this would be the perfect way to introduce concord lp.
Mushin Zen	Posted - 2011.02.07 05:30:00 - [30] Currently a bounty can be claimed by the person with it on their head, this needs to go, so simply stopping this their mate pods them an it carries on. So a bounty cannot be claimed by anyone who is in the same corp or alliance as you. This will reduce (but not eliminate) that friends pod each other to get the bounty. Having a bounty on your head has little impact in the game. You simply fly around and maybe someone gets lucky. So it has no real impact. Having a bounty on your head should mean you are hunted, but there is no means of tracking anyone down in EVE. I suggest a CONCORD service where you can pay agents to report movements of suspects. As they use gates (managed by CONCORD) ship registers and pilot registers of who passes through must exist in theory. Depending on how much you pay to CONCORD and how far away the 'target' is results in an automatic email report from CONCORD informing you of someones movments. The more you pay, the more information you get. With a cap on bounties it would also mean there would be a cost limiting factor in chasing people. Otherwise the rich could simply blackmail people out of playing (like has happened in WOW, pay us protection money or we mess with you in game status). Security Status should also be a factor in bounties, limiting how much they can be, a multiplier as such.



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