| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Blood Poison
   |
Posted - 2011.01.31 22:29:00 -
[1]
Here is my problem,
Somebody puts a buy orders in Jita with a very good price for certain items and he puts a minium volume.
At first I though that the guy has stuff on sell on the nearby region and want it bought fast as the minimum volume was hardly obtainable.
Anyway I've decided to give it a try gathered tje minimum volume as the margin was pretty good.
When I tried to sell the items to this buy order I get "Info Broker found no match for your order. Others might have been before you, or your quotes might be outdated."
As the price of the item was going up, I've deicded to wait a bit and sell later. After a few days later the guy put the same order and I had the needed amount of items already.
So I tried to sell the stock again and I get the same error.
I checked various items and I saw the same type of ordesr - high buy price, min volume equal to the volume for various items.
I've decided to see if this is going to happen again and decided to fill one of those orders again to the same result - "Info Broker found no match for your order."
Is this a market bug or an exploit?
|
Ruareve
|
Posted - 2011.01.31 22:31:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Ruareve on 31/01/2011 22:33:03
Margin trading, allows someone to put up a buy order with less money then the order requires. High min volume means the order can never be filled.
Margin Trading
Margin Trading Ability to make potentially risky investments work in your favor. Each level of skill reduces the percentage of ISK placed in market escrow when entering buy orders. Starting with an escrow percentage of 100% at Level 0 (untrained skill), each skill level cumulatively reduces the percentage by 25%. For a maximum reduction of approximately 24% total escrow at level 5.
|
Blood Poison
|
Posted - 2011.01.31 22:46:00 -
[3]
I know all this, but I have the required number of items to satisfy the min volume requirement and still I cannot sell to it. And after I try the order disappears. |
stoicfaux
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.01.31 22:50:00 -
[4]
Edited by: stoicfaux on 31/01/2011 22:56:43
Edited by: stoicfaux on 31/01/2011 22:51:39
There's not enough money to cover the order, so it gets canceled when you try fulfill it.
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/854213/page/1#2
In other words, it's being used to drive the buy price up without the risk of actually having to pay out the overpriced buy order.
Or the high buy order is being used to entice people int buy the item elsewhere (from the same trader) in a attempt to make a profit.
SneakyTrader sets up sell orders for 110% price. SneakTrader creates buy order for 150% using margin trading. SuckerGuy sees the 110% sell and the 150% buy, thinks "profit!" but, Sneaky Trader gets the last laugh.
End result: SuckerGuy bought a lot of stuff at 110% of market from SneakyTrader or his alt, SneakyTrader's huge 150% buy order disappers, and SuckerGuy is left holding a lot of overpriced merchandise.
-----
"Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you!
-- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
|
Illectroculus Defined
Chooch Inc.
Twilight Federation
|
Posted - 2011.01.31 22:55:00 -
[5]
This is a stupid mechanic that should be fixed - the escrow for an order should be at least enough to cover the minumum order, regardless of Margin trading skill, thus the skill would still work as advertised and there wouldn't be any orders that would disappear when people used them. But don't expect CCP to fix it any time soon, we've been asking for a fix for the RR->Concord mechanic for years and only now have they even suggested they might fix it.
Vote Illectro for CSM6! Supporting the New Generation of Eve Players |
Molic Blackbird
|
Posted - 2011.02.01 02:02:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Illectroculus Defined
This is a stupid mechanic that should be fixed - the escrow for an order should be at least enough to cover the minumum order, regardless of Margin trading skill, thus the skill would still work as advertised and there wouldn't be any orders that would disappear when people used them. But don't expect CCP to fix it any time soon, we've been asking for a fix for the RR->Concord mechanic for years and only now have they even suggested they might fix it.
That would do nothing to fix the problem. All the person would have to do is set the minimum volume at 50% of the total volume. Fill half of the order himself thus clearing the escrow amount and leaving an order that will fail the moment anyone else tries to sell to it.
|
Thoraemond
Minmatar
Far Ranger
|
Posted - 2011.02.01 02:34:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Illectroculus Defined
This is a stupid mechanic that should be fixed - the escrow for an order should be at least enough to cover the minimum order, regardless of Margin trading skill, thus the skill would still work as advertised and there wouldn't be any orders that would disappear when people used them.
I understand that it is not an officially a capital-"E" Exploit to exploit this clear loophole in market mechanics. However, it does seem like aomething that should be fixed or tweaked, at least.
How about some further options:
- fill the order partially, disregarding any set minima, using up all the ISK that was put in escrow for the order, then cancelling the standing Buy Order? That would not eliminate the issue, but it would change the arithmetic of the scam a bit;
- require the Wallet (Pilot or Corporation) from which the order was placed to maintain enough ISK to cover the order, or it gets immediately cancelled.
If each order was assessed on its own, then you could still place a lot of orders on Margin Trading, more than your wallet could handle in total, so long as your wallet could handle each individually. This would mean that Margin Trading would remain very useful for those who want to use it, though they might want to keep a bit more ISK in their wallets; or
- In the extreme, what effect would there be from simply eliminating Margin Trading altogether? Surely there's enough extra ISK sitting around in the economy that such a step would not cause much grief for the exchange of goods in New Eden?
á
á
|
Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
|
Posted - 2011.02.01 02:46:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Thoraemond
In the extreme, what effect would there be from simply eliminating Margin Trading altogether? Surely there's enough extra ISK sitting around in the economy that such a step would not cause much grief for the exchange of goods in New Eden?[/list=1]
Right now Margin Trading is like a no interest line of credit. I can place an order for 4 billion ISK worth of goods, and only need 1 billion ISK to set up the order. Then start selling the goods as my orders get filled. Which should end up with me making enough ISK to cover the remaining 3 billion and make a profit.
Without margin trading, people would have to borrow the difference, which would have it's pros and cons.
|
Cash Equivalent
|
Posted - 2011.02.01 03:25:00 -
[9]
I think the only fair consistent way to diminish this practice without adding complicated (lag-inducing) code to the market is to make it more expensive. Loss of a percentage (25%?) of the escrow required to cover the failed minimum order, sending the wallet into the negative if necessary. These monies go to the broker, for the annoyance.
I don't have an exact formula to suggest but this should discourage the practice or at least make a sink out of it.
|
Patri Andari
Caldari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
|
Posted - 2011.02.01 03:43:00 -
[10]
Working as intended. If you try I am sure you can figure out a way to use it to your advantage.
Patri
I'll Roshambo You For That Titan! |
Songbird
|
Posted - 2011.02.01 03:44:00 -
[11]
How about actual negative accounts. Make the skill very hard to train (i.e. 10x) so using a throw away chars won't be profitable.
Then when a person can't cover the order make his account with negative wallet( take all the money from all the chars).
Next time he wants to put up a buy order he would have to get some isk first so he has a positive balance in his account.
|
Thoraemond
Minmatar
Far Ranger
|
Posted - 2011.02.01 04:46:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Patri Andari
Working as intended. If you try I am sure you can figure out a way to use it to your advantage.
It's probably working as designed (i.e., for this feature, the software probably matches the specification), but it seems unlikely that it is truly working as intended.
The mere existence of loopholes in a system does not imply that the loopholes were actually intended.
It is evident here and in relation to other Market-related features that the patterns of market behaviour that emerge in New Eden differ from those that emerge in real life in part because of the absence of the backdrop provided by a legal system.
It's true that the use of a loophole like this can be consistent with the "scams are permitted" ethos promoted by CCP, but there are whole layers of activity that exist in real life that are missing from EVE because margin calls, debt collection, bankruptcy, criminal sanction for "illegal" acts, and other things are unavailable in New Eden.
One could view such activities as potential areas for game-play, should CCP choose to implement them.
á
á
|
Dethmourne Silvermane
Gallente
Northstar Cabal
R.A.G.E
|
Posted - 2011.02.01 04:54:00 -
[13]
Making negative wallets in EVE creates isk out of thin air.
I realize you think a 10x skill will make them not throwaways, but I guarantee that given the enormous amounts of money that could be made abusing this possibility, that the current system is preferable to your alternative.
|
Cash Equivalent
|
Posted - 2011.02.01 06:54:00 -
[14]
In the case I described I don't think the negative wallets, with the money going to the broker, wouldn't be a faucet or a "thin-air" situation. No player would be gaining the money--it would solely be a penalty assessed against the trader to encourage smarter use of Margin Trading. No doubt they can re-up the wallet from a corp division or another alt.
I'm thinking something like 1/4 of the faulty margin call would be a fair sacrifice in the rare circumstance that the minimum qty on an order exceeds the cash in the trader's wallet.
|
Ami Quintero
|
Posted - 2011.02.01 10:03:00 -
[15]
I think Dethmourne was responding to Songbird's suggestion.
Your suggestion would, of course, be an ISK sink.
|
Songbird
|
Posted - 2011.02.01 13:20:00 -
[16]
Well of course I was thinking that the merchandise would be held from the "broker" until the account is paid in full.
This way even if you make a trial account(because I'm suggesting an account wide negative wallet) , put a plex in it to make it paid , train the skill and put a buy order, you wouldn't be able to get any more richer.
The only exploit I see is to take off the market large quantities of a goods.
|
Claire Voyant
|
Posted - 2011.02.01 13:38:00 -
[17]
Margin Trading is a useful feature that pretty much works as intended. Most "fixes" proposed here would break margin trading or would be unworkable. I think one idea that CCP could actually implement would be to fill a partial order with the isk that is in escrow. That is, ignore the minimum quantity imposed by the buyer if the seller has the goods and the buyer doesn't have the isk for the minimum quantity.
|
Caldariftw123
|
Posted - 2011.02.01 14:06:00 -
[18]
It is working as intended, nothing to fix. Most complaints that it is NOT working 'as intended' assume that CCP do not want scamming. CCP clearly want scamming in this game, and if creative people found a way to use margin trading to scam with then I am 100% certain that people in CCP will be saying "Ohh that's creative, I like it >:) never thought of that, what a good idea"
|
Blood Poison
|
Posted - 2011.02.01 14:51:00 -
[19]
Hi,
Thanks for the replies. I was just curious abouth why the order disappear. I forgot the Margin trading skill.
I will be more carefull next time.
As somebody mentioned there are enough ways to exploit such order.
Thanks. |
Kilab Gercias
|
Posted - 2011.02.01 16:35:00 -
[20]
The only way would be that when there is less money in Escrow then the Minimum Amount would cost the Buy order either cannt be placed or is canceld when that happen.
So we have the same System as now, but the Order is Canceld befor one unlucky guy triggers the trap.
|
trjcquee
|
Posted - 2011.02.02 02:01:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Thoraemond
The mere existence of loopholes in a system does not imply that the loopholes were actually intended.
I take the completely opposite view and believe they are intended. For if they were not intended then surely they would have been found during testing and fixed before delivering the product. If not, then they are de facto working as designed AND intended.
A failure on CCP's lolQA department's part does not constitute an exploitable loophole on my part. I'm sure others will disagree, but too many people are too willing to accept lousy software. How about CCP HTFU and actually do some serious testing for a change? They designed, tested, and distributed the thing. They own it. They are responsible for broken design AND implementations. |
Taedrin
Gallente
The Green Cross
Controlled Chaos
|
Posted - 2011.02.02 04:36:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Caldariftw123
It is working as intended, nothing to fix. Most complaints that it is NOT working 'as intended' assume that CCP do not want scamming. CCP clearly want scamming in this game, and if creative people found a way to use margin trading to scam with then I am 100% certain that people in CCP will be saying "Ohh that's creative, I like it >:) never thought of that, what a good idea"
This is too extreme. CCP doesn't WANT scamming. They merely permit it. Why else would CCP continually tweak contracts to make it harder to scam people? In fact, why get rid of escrow in favor of contracts in the first place?
The fact of the matter is that CCP does not ban people for scamming. However, people should not be surprised when CCP makes changes to the game to make scamming harder, or easier to spot. I would not be surprised at all if CCP altered the margin trading mechanics to make it potentially painful if you do not have enough money to cover an order. But then again, I would not be surprised if CCP did nothing at all.
----------
Originally by: Dr Fighter
"how do you know when youve had a repro accident"
Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
|
Julii Hex
|
Posted - 2011.02.03 02:14:00 -
[23]
Originally by: stoicfaux
Edited by: stoicfaux on 31/01/2011 22:59:09
Edited by: stoicfaux on 31/01/2011 22:58:20
There's not enough money to cover the order, so it gets canceled when you try fulfill it.
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/854213/page/1#2
In other words, it's being used to drive the buy price up without the risk of actually having to pay out the overpriced buy order.
Or the high buy order is being used to entice people into buying the item elsewhere (from the same trader) in a attempt to make a profit.
SneakyTrader sets up sell orders for 110% price. SneakyTrader creates buy order for 150% using margin trading. SuckerGuy sees the 110% sell and the 150% buy, thinks "profit!" but, SneakyTrader gets the last laugh.
End result: SuckerGuy bought a lot of stuff at 110% of market from SneakyTrader or his alt, SneakyTrader's huge 150% buy order disappears, and SuckerGuy is left holding a lot of overpriced merchandise.
If this is the case it's actually a fail on CCP's part.
In the real world a margin order is ALWAYS covered. Whether or not you can pay it back is another story.
If they brokerage doesn't cover the price of the order then by definition it's not a margin trade.
I actually had this happen the other day and ran around jita buying up every single item of a certain product only to have the order fall through when I attempted to meet it. I put in a petition. If this is truly an exploit and is fixed then great. If not I'm going to use this in the future to make money because it's a GREAT way to rip people off.
|
Julii Hex
|
Posted - 2011.02.03 02:18:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Blood Poison
Hi,
Thanks for the replies. I was just curious abouth why the order disappear. I forgot the Margin trading skill.
I will be more carefull next time.
As somebody mentioned there are enough ways to exploit such order.
Thanks.
That's all fine and good but how do you intend on being careful when there is no way to tell the difference between a legitimate order and a market order that will evaporate on you at the last second?
CCP needs to hire someone that has actually daytraded and knows the definition of these terms as well as their function.
|
Taedrin
Gallente
The Green Cross
|
Posted - 2011.02.03 02:27:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Julii Hex
Originally by: Blood Poison
Hi,
Thanks for the replies. I was just curious abouth why the order disappear. I forgot the Margin trading skill.
I will be more carefull next time.
As somebody mentioned there are enough ways to exploit such order.
Thanks.
That's all fine and good but how do you intend on being careful when there is no way to tell the difference between a legitimate order and a market order that will evaporate on you at the last second?
CCP needs to hire someone that has actually daytraded and knows the definition of these terms as well as their function.
Only trade in items which have a high volume traded? YOu will notice that all of these margin trade scams are done through items which have virtually NO history of being traded in Jita EVER.
----------
Originally by: Dr Fighter
"how do you know when youve had a repro accident"
Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
|
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
|
Posted - 2011.02.03 02:50:00 -
[26]
A simple solution as I see it is to automatically cancel buy orders for which the minimum bid amount (that is price times minimum lot size) is greater than available cash. You could even have it run as a background process that updates maybe once every fifteen minutes or so.
|
Patri Andari
Caldari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
|
Posted - 2011.02.03 03:03:00 -
[27]
Trading is as it has been for a long time. Many people have found ways to use current game mechanics to their advantage and benefit.
The only "problem" is that there is a whole new breed of noobs that enter the realm of trade without the requisite knowledge of game mechanics and expect to rep huge profits with little or no effort.
Learn the mechanics of trade and make them work for you... or go mine.
Patri
I'll Roshambo You For That Titan! |
Callista Omenswarm
Binary Industries Inc
|
Posted - 2011.02.03 03:25:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Taedrin
Only trade in items which have a high volume traded? YOu will notice that all of these margin trade scams are done through items which have virtually NO history of being traded in Jita EVER.
Not true, I've seen these kinds of orders for cruise missiles and 100mn ABs in the past couple of days in Jita.
Astronautical Engineering - T1 BPC Store - Now recruiting |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
|
Posted - 2011.02.03 04:34:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Patri Andari
Learn the mechanics of trade and make them work for you... or go mine.
and we have a good solution!
|
Amy Elteam
|
Posted - 2011.02.03 05:58:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Molic Blackbird
That would do nothing to fix the problem. All the person would have to do is set the minimum volume at 50% of the total volume. Fill half of the order himself thus clearing the escrow amount and leaving an order that will fail the moment anyone else tries to sell to it.
Well your cunning exploit would clearly be 100% effective, unless of course the escrow mechanics followed rules that were designed by someone smarter than a 5 year old.
After every transaction the escrow needs to be replenished and if there's not enough cash the order would be cancelled.
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |