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Jason1138
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Posted - 2011.02.03 19:54:00 -
[1]
the fleet phoon has 8 lows instead of 7 like the regular one. Fleet phoon also comes with more shields. if you do the math on the regen time vs max shields, the fleet phoon regens faster too
but if you put 7 sprs on both, 2 lse's on both, and 3 purger 1 rigs on both, the regular phoon has a better regen time, according to eft. obviously with the 8th low slot the fleet phoon would be faster on shield regen but why isn't it faster 7 vs 7?
is eft wrong or is there something i'm missing?
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.02.03 19:59:00 -
[2]
The Typhoon has a better base shield recharge than the FI Typhoon.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ |
Kneebone
Heathens' Harbor
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Posted - 2011.02.03 20:00:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Jason1138
the fleet phoon has 8 lows instead of 7 like the regular one. Fleet phoon also comes with more shields. if you do the math on the regen time vs max shields, the fleet phoon regens faster too
but if you put 7 sprs on both, 2 lse's on both, and 3 purger 1 rigs on both, the regular phoon has a better regen time, according to eft. obviously with the 8th low slot the fleet phoon would be faster on shield regen but why isn't it faster 7 vs 7?
is eft wrong or is there something i'm missing?
Simple, the base regen on the fleet typhoon is much higher then the standard typhoon. Also anyone who tanks their typhoon like that is an idiot.
It could just be that the purpose of your life is to server as a warning to others. |
RazluP
Spectral Battalion
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Posted - 2011.02.03 20:00:00 -
[4]
Why would you passive tank a typhoon?
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Kneebone
Heathens' Harbor
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Posted - 2011.02.03 20:07:00 -
[5]
Originally by: RazluP
Why would you passive tank a typhoon?
OOO I know why! Cause if you do that, add an invul and em hardner, then 5 T2 siege with T2 Rage and 3 T2 AC's with Hail L and 5 ogre II's, and all a Bil worth of implants the Typhoon looks good in EFT, 650+ tank, with over 1000 dps at 3km.
It could just be that the purpose of your life is to server as a warning to others. |
Jason1138
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Posted - 2011.02.03 20:12:00 -
[6]
"The Typhoon has a better base shield recharge than the FI Typhoon."
no, its got a shorter recharge time in the info because the fleet phoon has more shields to charge. if you do the math the reg phoon regens 2.18 a sec vs the fleet regen of 2.42 a sec
so the fleet has more shields and a faster regen, but eft says a worse passive tank
and i'm not planning to fly this, i'm just wondering where the problem is
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.02.03 21:05:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Seriously Bored on 03/02/2011 21:11:23
Originally by: Jason1138
no, its got a shorter recharge time in the info because the fleet phoon has more shields to charge. if you do the math the reg phoon regens 2.18 a sec vs the fleet regen of 2.42 a sec
It's not quite as simple as dividing the total shields by the recharge time...but you're generally correct that the Fleet Phoon should have a slightly higher shield regen stat.
There's another answer barring differences in fittings or other module junk:
EFT is wrong. It happens sometimes. Still, I'd suggest posting the exact fits you're using for each ship as there could be something else worth pointing out.
(Also...please don't passive shield tank a Phoon, even just for curiosity's sake.)
ED: It's something odd with EFT or your module selection, I'm fairly sure. Pyfa reports the Fleet Phoon as having a better passive shield tank, as sad as having to say that makes me.
ששששש
Originally by: CCP Big Dumb Object
When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed.
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Jason1138
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Posted - 2011.02.03 21:11:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Jason1138 on 03/02/2011 21:14:06
i already said i wasn't flying this fit. someone pointed the numbers out to me so i'm just wondering if eft is wrong. i think i said that in my OP too. pretty sure i ALSO posted my fit, in the OP, but since there's a disconnect somewhere do this:
fit 7 SPR II's, 2 LSE II's, and 3 Purger 1 rigs to each of them and look at the sustained defense in eft. its way more for a regular phoon than for a fleet phoon.
obviously i've got guns on it but that's not gonna affect the regen
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.02.03 21:21:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Jason1138
Edited by: Jason1138 on 03/02/2011 21:14:06
i already said i wasn't flying this fit. someone pointed the numbers out to me so i'm just wondering if eft is wrong. i think i said that in my OP too. pretty sure i ALSO posted my fit, in the OP, but since there's a disconnect somewhere do this:
fit 7 SPR II's, 2 LSE II's, and 3 Purger 1 rigs to each of them and look at the sustained defense in eft. its way more for a regular phoon than for a fleet phoon.
obviously i've got guns on it but that's not gonna affect the regen
I was asking you to post the exact EFT "copy to clipboard" loadout, because sometimes people think they fit something when they actually fit something else. But nevermind, I'm seeing what you're seeing, and I'm seeing it in Pyfa too.
I thought about it a tad more given that I can recreate it, and here's the culprit:
Shield Extender IIs add a flat amount of extra HP, not a percentage.
Because of this fact, the plain old T1 Typhoon has a better Shield HP to Shield Recharge ratio once you load both ships up with the exact same fit. The Shield Extenders change the ratio in the normal Typhoon's favor because it has a smaller initial HP pool, and a significantly shorter recharge time.
By comparison, the Shield Extenders add a smaller relative percentage to the Fleet Phoons HP pool, while the SPRs still reduce the recharge rate by the same relative percentage as the T1 Phoon.
Sorry for the snideness (it always bites me in the ass, it seems), and I hope that makes sense.
ששששש
Originally by: CCP Big Dumb Object
When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed.
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Jason1138
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Posted - 2011.02.03 21:30:00 -
[10]
"Shield Extender IIs add a flat amount of extra HP, not a percentage.
Because of this fact, the plain old T1 Typhoon has a better Shield HP to Shield Recharge ratio once you load both ships up with the exact same fit. The Shield Extenders change the ratio in the normal Typhoon's favor because it has a smaller initial HP pool, and a significantly shorter recharge time.
By comparison, the Shield Extenders add a smaller relative percentage to the Fleet Phoons HP pool, while the SPRs still reduce the recharge rate by the same relative percentage as the T1 Phoon."
so you're saying, if that's right, that you could make any lesser bs out tank a better bs assuming similar fits by adding lse's?
in other words, this is recreatable and not just limited to the phoons? i'm just trying to see if i'm chasing an eft mirage or if this is a real thing in the game
and don't worry about the snideness, its hard to understand how people are saying something when its typed out
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.02.03 21:40:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Seriously Bored on 03/02/2011 21:43:25
Originally by: Jason1138
so you're saying, if that's right, that you could make any lesser bs out tank a better bs assuming similar fits by adding lse's?
in other words, this is recreatable and not just limited to the phoons? i'm just trying to see if i'm chasing an eft mirage or if this is a real thing in the game
Basically, yes. It's a real thing and EFT/Pyfa aren't fooling you.
But that only really counts for Regen Shield Tanking, and generally only if you're comparing a basic T1 ship to its faction counterpart. T2 ships have very different stats from their T1 brethren, so it works out differently in some cases.
Regen Shield Tanking is only really useful for people who are new to the game or specifically setting up a ship to tank loads of damage while someone else does the killing, so the number of instances where you'll be able to use this quirk to your advantage are pretty few.
ED: And just to be really specific...
Any ship with a lower initial shield HP pool and shorter shield recharge should be able to field a better regen tank than one with a larger initial HP pool and longer recharge, given all else is the same.
ששששש
Originally by: CCP Big Dumb Object
When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed.
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Jason1138
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Posted - 2011.02.03 21:51:00 -
[12]
so then i might be able to out passive tank a CNR or a navy scorp with the t1 versions? i mean not having run the numbers yet i don't know but its possible that things like that would apply to other ships in the game?
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Cataca
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Posted - 2011.02.03 22:12:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Cataca on 03/02/2011 22:22:56
Edited by: Cataca on 03/02/2011 22:13:26
Not that its that smart anyway (the fit) but if LSE add less than 15% total shield hp, rechargers should be better.
Edit: nvm its the same reason as why large capacitor batteries suck on anything but cruisers. The recharge time is balanced for its base shield/cap ammount, adding something like 50% hp to it obviously yields much better results than adding 20 or 30% with a lower base recharge time. No real magic here. At any rate, passive tanking any battleship but a rattlesnake will result in a bad ship. The recharge time for the shields + the basic shield ammount of them (meaning that a LSE will add less % compared to cruisers) just doesnt permit for a sufficient tank, compared to how many slots you'd use.
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Jason1138
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Posted - 2011.02.03 23:19:00 -
[14]
yeah i'm not saying i'd fly any of these examples, i'm just thinking the concept over
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.02.04 00:05:00 -
[15]
7 SPR's?
amazing
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RazluP
Spectral Battalion
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Posted - 2011.02.04 00:06:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Jason1138
and i'm not planning to fly this, i'm just wondering where the problem is
There is no problem 
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Aqriue
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Posted - 2011.02.04 01:08:00 -
[17]
Dominion patch notes
Quote:
3. Navy battleships: we first boosted tier 2 navy battleships to justify their price tag, which means increasing their versatility a bit with extra fittings, drone bay and maneuverability when necessary. We also created tier 1 navy versions only obtainable through Factional Warfare LP stores in an effort to boost their rewards for participating players.
עQ: Why nerfing Navy Battleship shield recharge rate?
◦A: We estimate keeping the current Tranquility shield recharge rate would make them imbalanced in light of the new changes, especially for the Dominix and Scorpion Navy Issue. While passive shield tanking is supposed to be possible with some ships with great efficiency (Drake, Rattlesnake...), navy battleships are not part of the lot.
I remember that change and all the ridiculous *****ing that the CNR was OMGWTFBBQNERFEDITSUCKSOMUCHNAODON'TOUCHIT! when in reality it didn't change, because its better active tanked then passive so you can fit more +damage mods. You say the fleet comes with more shields then the normal typhoon, but forgot to factor in that both T1 and fleet have more armor then shields.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.02.04 01:42:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Jason1138
no, its got a shorter recharge time in the info because the fleet phoon has more shields to charge. if you do the math the reg phoon regens 2.18 a sec vs the fleet regen of 2.42 a sec
The FI Typhoon does have a longer shield recharge time. 3390 vs 2500.
But I was wrong about that being the answer to the OP's question.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ |
Jason1138
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Posted - 2011.02.04 03:53:00 -
[19]
"You say the fleet comes with more shields then the normal typhoon, but forgot to factor in that both T1 and fleet have more armor then shields."
i didn't forget it, its irrelevant
"The FI Typhoon does have a longer shield recharge time. 3390 vs 2500."
yes, i said that the regular phoon has a shorter time, and another way to say that is that the FI phoon has a longer regen time. the point though is that if they both had the same amount of shields, the fleet phoon would fill up faster because it has a faster regen rate.
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Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.02.04 12:35:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Jason1138
... the point though is that if they both had the same amount of shields, the fleet phoon would fill up faster because it has a faster regen rate.
how? if both had same amount of shield, but normal typhoon has shorter regen time, why would fleet variant have faster regen rate?
if regen rate = (ammount of shields)/(recharge time) then standard typhoon beats fleet typhoon in regen rate.
________________________________
: Forum Bore 'Em : Foamy The Squirrel - [jedi handwave] "There is no spoon." |
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Jason1138
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Posted - 2011.02.04 13:47:00 -
[21]
"how? if both had same amount of shield, but normal typhoon has shorter regen time, why would fleet variant have faster regen rate?"
i have no idea what this question is based on, other than an incomplete reading of prior posts
the phoon has a regen time that is shorter than the fleet phoon's, only because the fleet phoon has more shields. the fleet phoon has a faster regen time, so IF they had the same amount of shields, the fleet phoon would have a shorter regen time
people are sitting here looking at the regen times and not doing the math and going "oh the phoon regens faster, therefore it must have a faster regen per sec", which is inaccurate because they're not taking into account the fact that the fleet phoon has 50% more shields
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.02.04 13:49:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Jagga Spikes
if regen rate = (ammount of shields)/(recharge time) then standard typhoon beats fleet typhoon in regen rate.
It doesn't equal that though. It equals this (good luck wrapping your head around it), which makes it quite a bit more complicated. Cap and Shields use the same recharge formula.
Change some things and the T1 Phoon comes out ahead. Change others and the Fleet Phoon is superior. Jason1138 happened across something interesting I hadn't noticed before, I have to give him credit for that...
ששששש
Originally by: CCP Big Dumb Object
When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed.
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Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.02.04 13:59:00 -
[23]
i don't claim formula is linear, but it has same shape regardless of ship. only two factors are shields maximum and shield recharge time, and they are independent values. changing one does not change other.
so, recharge rate is proportional with shields maximum and inversely proportional with shield recharge rate. if two ships have same shields maximum and one has short recharge time, that ship also has faster regen.
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: Forum Bore 'Em : Foamy The Squirrel - [jedi handwave] "There is no spoon." |
Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.02.04 14:08:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Jagga Spikes
so, recharge rate is proportional with shields maximum and inversely proportional with shield recharge rate. if two ships have same shields maximum and one has short recharge time, that ship also has faster regen.
Sure, absolutely. I think what we've been trying to figure out in this thread though, is how one ship with less shields and shorter recharge time can switch places with a ship that has more shields and a longer recharge time.
Completely unfitted, a Fleet Issue Phoon has a better peak shield regen than an unfitted vanilla Phoon. Somewhere it loses that position.
Though I'm probably arguing in circles with someone who's on the same side of the argument right now... 
ששששש
Originally by: CCP Big Dumb Object
When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed.
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HankMurphy
Minmatar
Pelennor Swarm
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Posted - 2011.02.04 14:27:00 -
[25]
Edited by: HankMurphy on 04/02/2011 14:27:18
Seriously I do not know how everyone here can be so thick skulled. How is this hard? It's simple mathematics, the problem in front of you is so simple how is it all of you are so confused by this. Obviously none of you spent any time in a decent school and you are all evidence of that fact that despite technology increasing at an exponential rate, the average human intelligence is steadily dropping off at a linear rate. So I'll keep this is simple as I can and settle the topic for everyone involved: The plane does not take off.
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Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.02.04 15:05:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Seriously Bored
...
Completely unfitted, a Fleet Issue Phoon has a better peak shield regen than an unfitted vanilla Phoon. Somewhere it loses that position.
Though I'm probably arguing in circles with someone who's on the same side of the argument right now...
maybe :) anyways, the answer is: assuming equal skills, standard typhoon with about 10.6% maximum shield increase has same maximum recharge rate as fleet typhoon.
formula is [(flt_typh_max_shd/std_typh_max_shd)/(flt_typh_rech_time/std_typh_rech_time)] = [(8203/3390)/(5469/2500)] = [2.419764/2.1876] = 1.10613
interesting enough, while specific recharge rate is not linear, effect of maximum shields and recharge time on maximum recharge rate is linear. twice the maximum shields, twice the maximum recharge rate. half the recharge time, twice the maximum recharge rate.
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: Forum Bore 'Em : Foamy The Squirrel - [jedi handwave] "There is no spoon." |
Nano Viper
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.02.04 15:28:00 -
[27]
7 SPR's?
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Jason1138
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Posted - 2011.02.04 16:08:00 -
[28]
why do i get the feeling that if i came on here and posted "oh i just found out if you put a arbalest cruise missile on a rokh it makes it go 2000 m/s and immune to ewar" that i'd get about 10 of you saying "rokh's suck, rails suck, a phoon has more armor" or something else stupid like that
who cares how many spr's are on an experimental fit, or that the phoon has more armor than shields. the point is that there is something weird going on with shield regen and possibly cap regen too since they work the same, and that most of us here don't understand exactly how that works (including me)
and that if we DID understand how it works, maybe we could make a nice ship out of something that people think is not so nice
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Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.02.04 16:25:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Jagga Spikes on 04/02/2011 16:25:12
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Shield_recharge
there is nothing wrong with shield or cap recharge.
________________________________
: Forum Bore 'Em : Foamy The Squirrel - [jedi handwave] "There is no spoon." |
Jason1138
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Posted - 2011.02.04 16:36:00 -
[30]
weird is not the same as wrong
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