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RAW23	Posted - 2011.02.10 21:45:00 - [61] Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane Originally by: RAW23 Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane But then, I just lost 700m in a gamble on a noob. Is it a gamble if you have no idea of the odds? Or an act of faith? You think I had no idea of the odds, when forum history provides us a fairly good idea of the (statistical) odds. Touche. I must admit that my own statistical research showed that just investing in everything, as long as it was the same amount per offering, provided a small profit over time. So you are right, those odds were available, even in the absence of any further information.
Cheque Please Hot Like Mexico	Posted - 2011.02.10 21:46:00 - [62] Originally by: Fred Freedom See, this man gets it. Come hang out with us, you'll fit right in. Sweet, can I contract you all my ships for easy freight to 0.0? --- RL Meeting w/ Chribba
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.10 21:50:00 - [63] Originally by: Cheque Please Originally by: Fred Freedom See, this man gets it. Come hang out with us, you'll fit right in. Sweet, can I contract you all my ships for easy freight to 0.0? Originally by: Kalrand Warnings: Please don't send things to Goons offering to sell you bonds or shares without first checking with me. You're probably going to lose your money, and if you ignore everything I say here I'm not going to go on some diplomatically difficult internet crusade to get your money back for you. I will not be reimbursing anyone for anything stolen, defrauded, or otherwise illicitly acquired by anyone but myself. But then again if I stole something from you, I would highly recommend not giving me more of your money. Please note that this includes disagreements of investment terms ("Disputes"), cases of notorious theft (Bad Bobby), and cases where you really should have just seen it coming (Goonswarm Recruitment Deposits). I am not going to play internet sheriff. My investors are my investors, and I will not hold anyone's investment hostage without their permission.
Fred Freedom GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.10 21:50:00 - [64] Originally by: Cheque Please Originally by: Fred Freedom See, this man gets it. Come hang out with us, you'll fit right in. Sweet, can I contract you all my ships for easy freight to 0.0? There is also the small matter of a 500m security deposit, but that's not a huge deal. (you might unironically like joining one of our close blues and hanging out on our jabber more than you probably think)
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.10 21:53:00 - [65] Originally by: Fred Freedom Originally by: Cheque Please Originally by: Fred Freedom See, this man gets it. Come hang out with us, you'll fit right in. Sweet, can I contract you all my ships for easy freight to 0.0? There is also the small matter of a 500m security deposit, but that's not a huge deal. (you might unironically like joining one of our close blues and hanging out on our jabber more than you probably think) I keep telling Dethmourne Silvermane to do that. He's already blue.
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.11 02:24:00 - [66] It would appear that bids are no longer forthcoming, and the thread has become "interesting". I'm going to end this in about 14 or so hours, assuming that this doesn't pick up.
Alice Celadon	Posted - 2011.02.11 02:42:00 - [67] 2 billion @ 4.7%
Tutskii	Posted - 2011.02.11 02:45:00 - [68] Originally by: Fred Freedom Originally by: Cheque Please Originally by: Fred Freedom See, this man gets it. Come hang out with us, you'll fit right in. Sweet, can I contract you all my ships for easy freight to 0.0? There is also the small matter of a 500m security deposit, but that's not a huge deal. (you might unironically like joining one of our close blues and hanging out on our jabber more than you probably think) More info on that? I could use the lulz.
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.11 02:45:00 - [69] I'm going to say that any bids shouldn't go past the first decimal place. (Example 4.7% is fine. 4.69% is stupid).
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.11 02:48:00 - [70] Originally by: Tutskii Originally by: Fred Freedom (you might unironically like joining one of our close blues and hanging out on our jabber more than you probably think) More info on that? I could use the lulz. I believe that some allies have access to our jabber system, however setting it up appears to be a bit of an intelligence test. Many fail.
Two Shots Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.11 02:59:00 - [71] Originally by: Tutskii Originally by: Fred Freedom Originally by: Cheque Please Originally by: Fred Freedom See, this man gets it. Come hang out with us, you'll fit right in. Sweet, can I contract you all my ships for easy freight to 0.0? There is also the small matter of a 500m security deposit, but that's not a huge deal. (you might unironically like joining one of our close blues and hanging out on our jabber more than you probably think) More info on that? I could use the lulz. This post unfortunately disqualifies you. Two Shots Goonwaffe
Companion Qube Minmatar Electron Conservation Inc	Posted - 2011.02.11 03:24:00 - [72] Kalrand I am mightily confused that you have not seen fit to demonstrate how your needlessly complex investment vehicle protects your investors from all forms of scam, spam and acts of bitterdog. ... drunkpoasting best poasting yo
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.11 03:49:00 - [73] Originally by: Companion Qube Kalrand I am mightily confused that you have not seen fit to demonstrate how your needlessly complex investment vehicle protects your investors from all forms of scam, spam and acts of bitterdog. Fine. In effect I have synthetically created a credit defalt swap on goon investment vehicles for myself. I am getting the spread between the rate the public demands of me, and the goons demand of each other, in exchange for taking the default risk of the goon debt. Actually with my current level of assets (10-11b or so) and a goon default rate of less than 3%, the current amount of action we have in our private markets, and additional investment opportunities that I could generate by offering "cheap money", I could comfortably do this on the order of somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 billion isk without needlessly exposing myself to a risk of ruin. Assuming I could: 1) maintain a spread differential of about 3% on average over the whole portfolio. (smaller portfolios would have a higher differential) 2) limited myself to investments of the lesser of 5b isk, or 20% of the portfolio 3) make the assumption that defaults would not be correlated in any sudden way (a justification that I feel comfortable making given the history of goon investments over the "Fall of Delve" period) 4) assume that not all defaults were of the "complete defaults" kind (we do have the ability to work out payment plans in the event of an effective "bankruptcy") So long as these largely hold true, I could earn about 2 billion a month (7-8B/mo in income, 4-5B/mo in payments, 1B/mo in bad debt [call it three defaults a year]) for doing nothing, and if I work at it (higher differential, less defaults, lower pubic cost of capital) this could be as high as 5b a month. I could use my personal wealth and retained earnings as a backstop for any "Black Swan" style events, I'll be rolling in isk for doing very little work.
Krythas	Posted - 2011.02.11 03:51:00 - [74] I'll put up 1bn at 4.5% as well, cheers Quite an entertaining thread as well, I did like two shots description of a goons outing :-) Also, can we bid on the security deposits ? or are they fixed at 500M ?
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.11 03:58:00 - [75] Originally by: Krythas Also, can we bid on the security deposits ? or are they fixed at 500M ? Oh boy...
Misty McGinnity	Posted - 2011.02.11 08:57:00 - [76] Originally by: corestwo Originally by: Block Ukx Originally by: Fred Freedom ... if he's not stealing at least 50b he's doing it wrong. You are not helping him with statements like that. His point was, in part, that 5b is chump change. Why walk off with that? The relatively small size of the offering offers a measure of security all to itself. If 5b is chump change & the goons are awash with money, then begs the question, why ask MD for isk? wouldn't it be more logical to ask simply your "rich" alliance. thus providing no security at all. /thread
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.02.11 09:21:00 - [77] Edited by: Cyaxares II on 11/02/2011 09:21:15 Originally by: Misty McGinnity If 5b is chump change & the goons are awash with money, then begs the question, why ask MD for isk? wouldn't it be more logical to ask simply your "rich" alliance. you didn't read the OP at all, did you? in MD Kalrand can raise money at < 5%/month. within Goonswarm you (apparently) have to offer at least 10%/month to get investment. Kalrand's business plan is to borrow money at < 7%/month on MD and invest it at 10%/month in goonswarm-exclusive offerings. So you want him to borrow money at 10%/month and reinvest it at 10%/month. I think you are a true business genius.
Misty McGinnity	Posted - 2011.02.11 09:33:00 - [78] Edited by: Misty McGinnity on 11/02/2011 09:33:31 Originally by: Cyaxares II Edited by: Cyaxares II on 11/02/2011 09:21:15 Originally by: Misty McGinnity If 5b is chump change & the goons are awash with money, then begs the question, why ask MD for isk? wouldn't it be more logical to ask simply your "rich" alliance. you didn't read the OP at all, did you? in MD Kalrand can raise money at < 5%/month. within Goonswarm you (apparently) have to offer at least 10%/month to get investment. Kalrand's business plan is to borrow money at < 7%/month on MD and invest it at 10%/month in goonswarm-exclusive offerings. So you want him to borrow money at 10%/month and reinvest it at 10%/month. I think you are a true business genius. Did you read the thread? lmfao Goons offer 5-10% secured im sure a guy like Kal can get a lower rate% seeing as its chump change to some of them (see above), OP also claims to have 11b in assets. seems like alot of work for something that he can just as easily attain "in-house" is that clear enough for you champ? or do i need to add in a complex 12 digit code? ITT: buttsore white knights defend goons.
Alice Celadon	Posted - 2011.02.11 10:00:00 - [79] Christ. Let me explain Misty. Goons actually fund the exuberant noobs bouncing around asking for isk rather than laughing at them like we do. Goons go further and provide detailed fora posting and individual help for baby bees. Basically the idea is to set up all the people around you for success and fun. It's an odd concept, I know. Despite protestations to the contrary, I would argue that for a null alliance Goons are not very wealthy. This will likely change in the next few months as they find themselves sucking in Tech and Neo whilst no longer pouring out Maelstroms and meta4 howitzers.
Misty McGinnity	Posted - 2011.02.11 10:21:00 - [80] Edited by: Misty McGinnity on 11/02/2011 10:23:00 Originally by: Alice Celadon Goons actually fund the exuberant noobs bouncing around asking for isk rather than laughing at them like we do. You have shed no light on the topic, please can all the white knights save their speeches, your making me look good here
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.02.11 10:44:00 - [81] Quote: I have a better chance at actually seeing divs than the "roleplayers" who love to "run an EVE business" and talk about "derivatives", b/c I know they're just ***ing with me Derivatives existed since Ancient Greece (scroll down to "Business"), they are not a 2007 invention of some greasy banker. Like everything, they may be used for good or bad plans. My insurance against collateral depreciation acted basically like a future. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read* http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Bad Bobby Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2011.02.11 10:51:00 - [82] Originally by: Misty McGinnity Goons offer 5-10% secured Even if Kalrand was looking for secured funding, which he isn't, those rates would be higher than he could get in MD. Because Kalrand is looking for unsecured funding those rates are not relevant, regardless of whether they are accurate or not. Whichever way you slice it Kalrand, or anyone else, can borrow at a lower rate from MD than they can from the Goons. The flip side is that they have to deal with MD which carries a significant cost and isn't everyone's cup of tea. Originally by: Misty McGinnity seems like alot of work for something that he can just as easily attain "in-house" While Kalrand might be able to operate a venture similar to this one "in-house" he wouldn't be able to generate as much profit per loan. All this before you consider the trolling value of the whole exercise.
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.02.11 10:53:00 - [83] Edited by: Cyaxares II on 11/02/2011 10:53:41 Originally by: Misty McGinnity is that clear enough for you champ? or do i need to add in a complex 12 digit code? I am afraid you do, because I can't make any sense of your comments as is. How is Kalrand's NAV related to his desire to run a successful (unsecured) goon offering on MD? how can you get a lower interest rate than the rate for a secured offering? (more secure than secure? sounds good, sign me up^^) Why does thinking reasonably suddenly make me a white knight? (and how am I defending "goons" by rephrasing a business plan? I have an interest in sensible discussion on this forum but I certainly don't want to defend Goonswarm Federation... they're red to me) tl;dr I don't even...
Misty McGinnity	Posted - 2011.02.11 11:07:00 - [84] Originally by: Bad Bobby All this before you consider the trolling value of the whole exercise. Admit it you had fun making your portrait. ( i lol'd) Originally by: Kalrand tl;dr I'm selling bonds that I'm going to be reinvesting in Goonswarm investments that you people just don't have access to. Each bond is worth 100 Million isk, and will receive an interest payment once a month. Probably on or about the 15th of every month. I can call your bond at any time. You'll get paid the interest for that month in full if I do. now re-read this, despite Kal being an MD regular, who in their right mind would give this person money?
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking	Posted - 2011.02.11 13:08:00 - [85] Originally by: Misty McGinnity now re-read this, despite Kal being an MD regular, who in their right mind would give this person money? Apparently quite a few people.
Two Shots Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.11 14:45:00 - [86] Originally by: corestwo Originally by: Misty McGinnity now re-read this, despite Kal being an MD regular, who in their right mind would give this person money? Apparently quite a few people. We should probably stop arguing with the angry-pervert avatar. Two Shots Goonwaffe
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.11 15:11:00 - [87] Originally by: Misty McGinnity Originally by: Kalrand tl;dr I'm selling bonds that I'm going to be reinvesting in Goonswarm investments that you people just don't have access to. Each bond is worth 100 Million isk, and will receive an interest payment once a month. Probably on or about the 15th of every month. I can call your bond at any time. You'll get paid the interest for that month in full if I do. now re-read this, despite Kal being an MD regular, who in their right mind would give this person money? If I call their bonds in the middle of the month, they still get paid for the whole month. I don't see why that's so evil.
Fred Freedom GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.11 19:48:00 - [88] Originally by: Alice Celadon Christ. Let me explain Misty. Goons actually fund the exuberant noobs bouncing around asking for isk rather than laughing at them like we do. Goons go further and provide detailed fora posting and individual help for baby bees. Basically the idea is to set up all the people around you for success and fun. It's an odd concept, I know. Despite protestations to the contrary, I would argue that for a null alliance Goons are not very wealthy. This will likely change in the next few months as they find themselves sucking in Tech and Neo whilst no longer pouring out Maelstroms and meta4 howitzers. The alliance itself is not as wealthy as many individual members. This is mostly by design, so that another karttooning no longer has the chance to do as much of note/because space communism. Our members, however, are certainly among the richest in the game. We think 10% is a minimum because we don't log in for under a billion and we don't really expect our newbies to, either. That MD thinks a 5b bond requires 10 people to fill it is actually yet another meta-troll on the Eve community by our standards.
RAW23	Posted - 2011.02.11 20:04:00 - [89] Edited by: RAW23 on 11/02/2011 20:05:31 Originally by: Fred Freedom Originally by: Alice Celadon Christ. Let me explain Misty. Goons actually fund the exuberant noobs bouncing around asking for isk rather than laughing at them like we do. Goons go further and provide detailed fora posting and individual help for baby bees. Basically the idea is to set up all the people around you for success and fun. It's an odd concept, I know. Despite protestations to the contrary, I would argue that for a null alliance Goons are not very wealthy. This will likely change in the next few months as they find themselves sucking in Tech and Neo whilst no longer pouring out Maelstroms and meta4 howitzers. The alliance itself is not as wealthy as many individual members. This is mostly by design, so that another karttooning no longer has the chance to do as much of note/because space communism. Our members, however, are certainly among the richest in the game. We think 10% is a minimum because we don't log in for under a billion and we don't really expect our newbies to, either. That MD thinks a 5b bond requires 10 people to fill it is actually yet another meta-troll on the Eve community by our standards. I'm confused. Why would you compare a forum with about 50 active participants to a 5000 man alliance? I also don't understand the significance of 10 people investing in a 5bil bond on MD. MD investors have no group affiliation with their investees and the investees will suffer pretty much zero sanctions for defaulting. Diversification of investments will be more important to MD investors than it will be to goons, as goons get higher returns and lower default rates internally. MD doesn't think a 5bil bond requires 10 people to fill it (indeed MD doesn't think anything having no group mind) and there are plenty of people here capable of filling 5bil bonds singlehandedly (and 20bil, even 100bil if you look at some of Torn Soul's recent bonds; I think Grendell might have even picked up 200bil from 2 people). That they don't fill every bond from someone they have no reason to trust doesn't really say anything. But please, continue with the ideological propaganda. It's fun to watch and at least of slightly higher quality than the CAOD norm.
Two Shots Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.11 20:13:00 - [90] Originally by: RAW23 Edited by: RAW23 on 11/02/2011 20:05:31 Originally by: Fred Freedom Originally by: Alice Celadon Christ. Let me explain Misty. Goons actually fund the exuberant noobs bouncing around asking for isk rather than laughing at them like we do. Goons go further and provide detailed fora posting and individual help for baby bees. Basically the idea is to set up all the people around you for success and fun. It's an odd concept, I know. Despite protestations to the contrary, I would argue that for a null alliance Goons are not very wealthy. This will likely change in the next few months as they find themselves sucking in Tech and Neo whilst no longer pouring out Maelstroms and meta4 howitzers. The alliance itself is not as wealthy as many individual members. This is mostly by design, so that another karttooning no longer has the chance to do as much of note/because space communism. Our members, however, are certainly among the richest in the game. We think 10% is a minimum because we don't log in for under a billion and we don't really expect our newbies to, either. That MD thinks a 5b bond requires 10 people to fill it is actually yet another meta-troll on the Eve community by our standards. I'm confused. Why would you compare a forum with about 50 active participants to a 5000 man alliance? I also don't understand the significance of 10 people investing in a 5bil bond on MD. MD investors have no group affiliation with their investees and the investees will suffer pretty much zero sanctions for defaulting. Diversification of investments will be more important to MD investors than it will be to goons, as goons get higher returns and lower default rates internally. MD doesn't think a 5bil bond requires 10 people to fill it (indeed MD doesn't think anything having no group mind) and there are plenty of people here capable of filling 5bil bonds singlehandedly (and 20bil, even 100bil if you look at some of Torn Soul's recent bonds; I think Grendell might have even picked up 200bil from 2 people). That they don't fill every bond from someone they have no reason to trust doesn't really say anything. But please, continue with the ideological propaganda. It's fun to watch and at least of slightly higher quality than the CAOD norm. Ask yourself this: what less damning things could you honestly expect goons to post in a thread on MD? Pretty much anything we say will be dismissed as a confidence racket, a scam, a troll, or uninformed blather. There is no motivation for us to post anything you would consider 'good,' when we know that you will not consider anything that we post to be 'good'. Two Shots Goonwaffe

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