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MinorFreak
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Posted - 2005.01.30 10:28:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Cassendra
erm... you have to travel 20 jumps..CCP intended for you to jump in 15k from any gate...ehh...you do not think there is a problem with instas?? Exploiter!!!
that also is an illogical statement. You're omniscience is only awe-inspiring to yourself. The rest of us think you're a boring troll. get educated.
You're speculating and claiming it to be fact. Your use of the word "exploit" is conjecture and your opinion is not official. You simply look like a damn fool.
______________________
Best darned links ingame and out (backup) |
Seth Killbain
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Posted - 2005.01.30 10:49:00 -
[32]
Instas are fine and here is why i think they are.
If im going into an area i have never been before i have to use standard routes like everyone else. If i take the time to map out instas ( get to know the area ) then i have found shortcuts through the system.
Why shouldnt someone who knows the area be able to navigate it faster then people who do not, just like RL in that way.
The only people who can blow past gate campers are people experianced in that system, so why shouldnt they have a better chance of surviving?
Battleships are not as fast as interceptors using insta jumps, why dont people put up a proper blockade, and block all the gates, set up bubbles, warp disrupters etc? If you cant, dont have resources, or are just afraid of getting caught up yourself when a superior fleet moves your way, then you shouldnt be able to catch people who are "native" to the system, thats balance in itself, you cant have it all your own way, and remember the cookie crumbles the same for both sides.
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Darkoth
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Posted - 2005.01.30 10:51:00 -
[33]
Yeah, well it's boring to watch your ship fly for 3 minutes. It's a game and the worst part about this game is sitting there waiting for your ship to get somewhere because you had to warp within 15 km. The reason why ccp leaves it in is because the travel time is the biggest complaint of new players.
Instead of complaining about it, why don't you think of a solution that would make everyone happy. Just taking it out because it messes up gate campers is not going to fly over. You need a more constructive idea than just promoting it for your own personal gain.
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Burga Galti
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Posted - 2005.01.30 11:12:00 -
[34]
Yes I use instas a lot myself
Yes they haved saved my ass a lot of times
Yes I wish they were gone
I have no faith that this will happen however because
"The routes to and from Empire space were pre-programmed fixtures in the personalized navigation system of every ship he traveled in, with carefully plotted jumps that put him directly on top of the stargates that he needed to travel between systems."
That from Ruthless Chapter 5.
Tales from the EVE Cluster |
Infinity Ziona
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Posted - 2005.01.30 11:27:00 -
[35]
Originally by: MinorFreak
that is not a valid argument
Its a perfectly valid argument. What are you talking about?
The intention of the developers was to have ships travel a certain distance to a gate after leaving warp. Initially it was 7.5k, but was later adjusted to 12.5k. I believe this change was made because the 7.5k distance was considered insufficient to lock down a ship (due to the 'invulnerability coding' that was being used at that time).
When you use insta-jumps you are bypassing the intended mechanics of the game (the wish of the developers to have you travel that distance). Simply because the developers choose at this time not to penalise people for doing this doesn't change the fact that it is indeed exploitive.
Originally by: Seth KillBain
Instas are fine and here is why i think they are.
If im going into an area i have never been before i have to use standard routes like everyone else. If i take the time to map out instas ( get to know the area ) then i have found shortcuts through the system.
*snip*
Battleships are not as fast as interceptors using insta jumps, why dont people put up a proper blockade, and block all the gates, set up bubbles, warp disrupters etc?
Thats fine Seth, except they made insta-jumps able to be copied. A lot of time in established corporations, as soon as you join you can obtain a copy of all the insta-jumps throughout their area of operation. Zero work.
An insta-jumping battleship is not as fast but its close to a non-insta using inty while traveling. It takes around 10 seconds to enter warp, and you jump instantly at the gate.
When a battleship warps to 0 meteres from a gate, thats equivalent to a speed of 12.5kms which is 3 times faster then an interceptor roughly.
Infinity Ziona
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Nuala Reece
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Posted - 2005.01.30 13:17:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Thats fine Seth, except they made insta-jumps able to be copied. A lot of time in established corporations, as soon as you join you can obtain a copy of all the insta-jumps throughout their area of operation. Zero work.
Hmm, lots of established corps give free ships and modules to their new members. No work. Should that be stopped too?
I'd like to know what you see as the difference between an 'exploit' and something that's 'exploitive'. They seem pretty similar things to me. What you said earlier Originally by: Infinity Ziona
I absolutely hate insta-jumps but I use them because if I don't use them I'm at a distinct disadvantage to people who do use them.
reminded me of a conversation I had once with a guy who'd just lost his license for speeding - he told me he'd been forced to speed because the car he was overtaking was travelling at the speed limit. What you've essentially argued is that, although you think instajumps are exploits, you're being forced to exploit the game mechanics yourself by other people. Your arguments would carry a lot more weight if you stood by your principles and avoided something you see as exploiting the game mechanics.
Anyway - just to move away from the arguing and back to the point of the thread - one tip for using your AP with BM's. If you activate your AP while you're underway your ship will automatically make the jump once it's in range of the gate (pretty much as soon as you arrive as long as you've got the BM placed properly. Just remember to deactivate it straight away if you're planning on using another insta on the other side, otherwise you'll carry on as normal and exit warp at the standard 15km or whatever at the next one.
Be Free
Freelancing Corp |
Basileus
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Posted - 2005.01.30 13:53:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Nuala Reece
Anyway - just to move away from the arguing and back to the point of the thread - one tip for using your AP with BM's. If you activate your AP while you're underway your ship will automatically make the jump once it's in range of the gate (pretty much as soon as you arrive as long as you've got the BM placed properly. Just remember to deactivate it straight away if you're planning on using another insta on the other side, otherwise you'll carry on as normal and exit warp at the standard 15km or whatever at the next one.
That is a very useful tip Nuala, thanks! I have incorporated it into the tutorial.
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Droidster
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Posted - 2005.01.30 14:05:00 -
[38]
For those who are interested in making bookmarks I would point out that the 15 km overrange that the author mentions above only works for larger gates, will never put you on the center of the gate and will always land you behind the gate (facing away from it) which is bad because you have to turn around to see it.
The formula for the distance (in meters) is:
15000 - GateSize/2
So if the gate is one of the small ones, 4900m in size, you must set the bookmark 12550 meters to land in the center of the gate.
I find that it is useful to land in front of the gate to make it easy to click on (if you are not using AP). To do this subtract 1500 from the above number. So in the small gate example, using the distance 11000 meters will land you directly in front of the gate (and within its radius).
You can see the gate size in the overview.
_____________________________________________
I am motivated by various things, mostly ISK. |
Basileus
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Posted - 2005.01.30 14:19:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Basileus on 30/01/2005 14:33:05
Originally by: Droidster
For those who are interested in making bookmarks I would point out that the 15 km overrange that the author mentions above only works for larger gates, will never put you on the center of the gate and will always land you behind the gate (facing away from it) which is bad because you have to turn around to see it.
The formula for the distance (in meters) is:
15000 - GateSize/2
So if the gate is one of the small ones, 4900m in size, you must set the bookmark 12550 meters to land in the center of the gate.
I find that it is useful to land in front of the gate to make it easy to click on (if you are not using AP). To do this subtract 1500 from the above number. So in the small gate example, using the distance 11000 meters will land you directly in front of the gate (and within its radius).
You can see the gate size in the overview.
Another useful tip, thanks. I have incorporated it. You can use Nuala Reece's trick to make sure you jump straight away, so it does not really matter where you are relative to the gate, as long as you are within the required 2500 m of course. But your method is more precise.
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Tobius Moon
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Posted - 2005.01.30 15:56:00 -
[40]
Gotta drop my 2 cents in here.
CCP MUST condone the use of Insta-bookmarks.
Why do I think this?
The ONLY way to make some of these bigger level 4 Hauler Missions in the Bonus Time is to use insta-bookmarks. No matter how many haulers you have running to carry the elephantine load, the time it takes for any one of them to make all the warps, jumps, dockings and undockings, even maxed out with overdrives will put you over without insta-bookmarks.
Either the time limit is wrong, or CCP understands the use of insta-bookmarks (or both  )
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Gantor Paxnor
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Posted - 2005.01.30 16:10:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Tobius Moon
Gotta drop my 2 cents in here.
CCP MUST condone the use of Insta-bookmarks.
Why do I think this?
The ONLY way to make some of these bigger level 4 Hauler Missions in the Bonus Time is to use insta-bookmarks. No matter how many haulers you have running to carry the elephantine load, the time it takes for any one of them to make all the warps, jumps, dockings and undockings, even maxed out with overdrives will put you over without insta-bookmarks.
Either the time limit is wrong, or CCP understands the use of insta-bookmarks (or both )
Perhaps you're supposed to use cruisers instead of haulers , or shuttles, or intys 
I agree though, Insta jumps are a valid and legal use of the game mechanics.
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Nuala Reece
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Posted - 2005.01.30 18:10:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Nuala Reece on 30/01/2005 18:10:52
Not to mention that the link Basileus provided at the start leads to a Dev Blog specifically discussing instajumps which fails to state they are considered exploits. That would seem to clarify the position of the devs issue - if they considered it an exploit the blog would have read more like "using bookmarks as 'instajumps' is an exploit" :)
Just because the devs didn't expect people to use BM's to warp into gates at close range doesn't make it an exploit on its own. If unexpected use of game mechanics was all it took I imagine all those people using secure cans as cheap adverts would be finding themselves banned en masse :) The fact that there are ways for people to counter this tactic (mobile warp disruptors) suggests they'll continue to be considered a valid (if extremely irritating) method of getting around, leaving gate campers to shoulder the responsibility of getting better at what they do rather than expecting the devs to make it all easier with no work necessary on their part.
Be Free
Freelancing Corp |
Noriath
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Posted - 2005.01.30 21:36:00 -
[43]
Instajumps suck and should be removed from the game.
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Orb Lati
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Posted - 2005.01.30 22:10:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Orb Lati on 30/01/2005 22:10:34
Insta-bookmarks are here to stay.
If they were removed you would get such an outcry from players who rely on them to quickly bypass a tedious part of the game (travel time to the gate and a station)
get use to them.
You should be asking for better ways to pull players out of warp or prevent them from wapring out.
ie.
better/cheaper mobile warp disrupters.
Abilties to follow slower ships (warp speed) into warp and attack them there to make them fall out of wapr all together.
Deployable objects that disrupt warp fields around them making it take longer to get into warp.
Oh and heres an idea.
Try to capture them getting into warp next time.
Trouble is many wannabe pirates are half into warp themselves the instant the gate flashes and sombody jumps in just in case the new player is in something more dangerous than an indie.
"We Worship Strength, because it is through strength that all other values are made possible" |
Infinity Ziona
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Posted - 2005.01.30 22:25:00 -
[45]
If you don't like 'Travel Time' then don't play a space game you nerds. The very word 'Space' invokes in me, thoughts of distance and travel.
I played Everquest for 3 years, on a PvP server, if you wanted fast travel you would have to get a druid or a shaman to cast a speed spell on you. It sped you up tremendously but it never removed the risk that another player could kill you. Now a wizard could 'Port' you which I guess was equivalent to insta-jumping.
It seems in EVE, everyone wants to be a wizard. But have the benefits of other classes as well.
I wonder just how many 'alliances' and how many members are in alliances, simply because insta-jumps exist. It would be interesting to see what would happen to alliances if they were removed.
Unfortunately, CCP waited too long and I guess now they're stuck with this Crash Bandicoot style gameplay, when they initially intended it to be more like Counterstrike.
Infinity Ziona
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Siddy
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Posted - 2005.01.30 22:57:00 -
[46]
if CCP had not intendet this game to have traveling time, you whuld be able to teleport to your desired location
Instas = bad
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Orb Lati
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Posted - 2005.01.30 23:33:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Siddy
if CCP had not intendet this game to have traveling time, you whuld be able to teleport to your desired location
Instas = bad
strange. sounds a lot like jump gates
"We Worship Strength, because it is through strength that all other values are made possible" |
Gantor Paxnor
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Posted - 2005.01.30 23:52:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Siddy
if CCP had not intendet this game to have traveling time, you whuld be able to teleport to your desired location
Instas = bad
Oh yeah, and why when I do missions since the Exodus patch and use the systems BM to dock back at the agent station is the system's BM an instajump?
CCP have now programmed this time saving technique into agent missions, yet you say it's bad? and some say illegal? yet the system gives me instajumps whenever I do a mission?
Get real.
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w0rmy
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Posted - 2005.01.31 00:06:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Orb Lati
Originally by: Siddy
if CCP had not intendet this game to have traveling time, you whuld be able to teleport to your desired location
Instas = bad
strange. sounds a lot like jump gates
isnt that also what the plan is with Jumpdrives?
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.01.31 00:09:00 -
[50]
"It seems in EVE, everyone wants to be a wizard. But have the benefits of other classes as well."
* puts on the robe and wizard hat.
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MinorFreak
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Posted - 2005.01.31 01:36:00 -
[51]
Edited by: MinorFreak on 31/01/2005 01:53:03
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Originally by: MinorFreak
that is not a valid argument
Its a perfectly valid argument. What are you talking about?
You really have no idea about official intentions. Not only that, you two have spoken like you've actually studied this objectively.
Tell me something, what exactly was the intention behind bookmarks? You've not alluded to that because it points to a rather large contradiction in your rants. Sure, you can rant till the cows come home about warp distance 'intentions', as long as you ignore the entire context.
*shrug* Since you fail to follow even the basic steps in making an argument. Therefore, your rants are just that, and not valid arguments.
 [IMPRESSION=Dennis Miller]It's the same bloody thing as 'jetcans'...come on, people, there's simply no end to this whole 'intentions' BS the community has to hear...Do you honestly think CCP just pull stuff out of their arse and don't even attempt to think through even the most obvious of consequences?
Personally, i think they do, they just don't write their 'intentions' down and get confused when a whole bunch of whiners get up in arms about 'exploits' and 'unintended effects'...I mean, it's just so silly to expect a company introducing a feature to have written down ten commandments about what exactly they intended some tool to be used for. They're not omniscient, but they're intelligent, and they're sure as hell not going to WRITE THIS SHIITE DOWN just in case some whiner like you decides to read their freakin mind.
they can add 1+1. don't insult their intelligence. they're not that stupid.[/IMPRESSION]
______________________
Best darned links ingame and out (backup) |
w0rmy
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Posted - 2005.01.31 04:20:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Unfortunately, CCP waited too long and I guess now they're stuck with this Crash Bandicoot style gameplay, when they initially intended it to be more like Counterstrike.
And the award for stupidest comment of the year goes to...
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Hous Balzitch
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Posted - 2005.01.31 04:52:00 -
[53]
I like instas and want them to stay, but I can see the other point of view as well. A possible middle ground solution could be to simulate to a certain degree real physics and have everthing slowly revolve around system centers. After a week, you might start missing jumps. After a month, they would be downright worthless. Just an idea...
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F'nog
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Posted - 2005.01.31 05:09:00 -
[54]
Thank you for pointing that out w0rmy. I missed the CS comment. That's some funny stuff.
One of the biggest laughs of Beta were all the FPS people commenting on how they were gonna PWN everybody like in Quake or CS on the public boards. Those of us who actually played knew how rediculous those comments were.
The only thing Eve has in common with an FPS is that it's played on a computer and you can have guns.
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Infinity Ziona
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Posted - 2005.01.31 05:33:00 -
[55]
Originally by: w0rmy
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Unfortunately, CCP waited too long and I guess now they're stuck with this Crash Bandicoot style gameplay, when they initially intended it to be more like Counterstrike.
And the award for stupidest comment of the year goes to...
Hardly stupider then your pointless comment above.
My analogy is correct, the travel times in EVE are very cartoonish compared to most other MMOGS I have played. Show me another game where you spend 10 seconds or less of your time actively travelling through a zone / system / dungeon. Show me another game where to ensure that you can catch and kill one person, you require an entire gang of people or another account and some serious meta-gaming and several hours at least unless its random killing.
EVE has gone from a hardcore, difficult game to a cartoonish, soft and cuddly game where the main and preferred form of combat is large herds of carebears shooting other large herds of carebears.
You may disagree with me but thats how I see EVE today and I'm sure if I see it that way, others do also, including potential new customers.
Having said that, I still do like EVE because you can still force PvP apon people with corp wars if you choose the right corporation in Empire (one that doesn't have insta's) and it still looks very cool, but its so watered down these days that I'm definitely on the lookout for another game, one that offers strategy, risk and non-consentual PvP without the rediculous limitations of EVE.
CCP might as well put jump drives in every ship in EVE. Then we won't need instas at all.
Infinity Ziona
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.01.31 06:20:00 -
[56]
Quite frankly, players who use bookmarks to bypass traveltime can spontaniously combust and die in a ditch for all I care.
I'm not in the least interested in wether they will complain or not. They abuse a weakness in the game to cut traveltime to practically nothing and travel in complete safety through even the most dangerous regions of space.
If instant, 100% secure travel is intended - ok - make ships warp to 500m of the gate automatically.
If it's not intended to work that way - don't leave it in just because the number of exploiters is very large. They won't quit, the type of player that will do anything to gain an advantage will never quit, but just look for the next way to abuse the system...
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w0rmy
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Posted - 2005.01.31 06:21:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Hardly stupider then your pointless comment above.
My analogy is correct, the travel times in EVE are very cartoonish compared to most other MMOGS I have played. Show me another game where you spend 10 seconds or less of your time actively travelling through a zone / system / dungeon. Show me another game where to ensure that you can catch and kill one person, you require an entire gang of people or another account and some serious meta-gaming and several hours at least unless its random killing.
I think youre missing one key point.
This is EVE, a game unlike any other. Comparing with other games to try and show its faults is silly, especially considering every game you have listed has far more faults than eve ever has.
"OMG J00 A|MB0T HS W4||H4X N00B PWNAGE!!!"
This is not Everquest
This is not Counterstrike
This is not Crash Bandicoot
It should be taken on its own merits, not compared with other games that arent even remotely similar.
As for your comment... comparing EVE with any FPS is stupid, regardless of whether you consider your analogy to be correct.
What next?
OMG We need giant paddles for ships and floating balls, cause pong did and that game was the ****zle!
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w0rmy
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Posted - 2005.01.31 06:22:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Noriath
If it's not intended to work that way - don't leave it in just because the number of exploiters is very large. They won't quit, the type of player that will do anything to gain an advantage will never quit, but just look for the next way to abuse the system...
So youd like to see Jet can mining removed from the game also?
As that was never intended to work that way
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.01.31 06:24:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Noriath on 31/01/2005 06:26:55
If it was I wouldn't complain.
In fact, I'd apreciate it if it was.
When I was a complete noob me and a buddy used to mine directly into a hauler all the time, we didn't even think anything else was possible - did it bother us? Hell no, it was fun times. In fact, it was a lot more fun because mining with several people in the same belt made sense.
When we discovered jetcan mining it turned out that you could mine gigantic quantities of ore all by yourself, and in fact had no advantage from teamwork whatsoever. Sure it's convenient, but I had more fun mining with friends into a hauler.
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MinorFreak
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Posted - 2005.01.31 06:58:00 -
[60]
Edited by: MinorFreak on 31/01/2005 07:11:41
  
Originally by: Noriath
When I was a complete noob me and a buddy used to mine directly into a hauler all the time, we didn't even think anything else was possible
uhm...i don't think that's even remotely possible. wtf are you talking about? Can you initiate 'trade' between a miner and a hauler outside of dock????
I call Bull****
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Best darned links ingame and out (backup) |
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