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Wtf Pwnage
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Posted - 2011.02.23 01:39:00 -
[1]
Today, during our successful shield fleet takedown of a Sansha Nation Mom in Amarr High sec, it came to my attention that CCP has not addressed what is apparently a very common and obviously broken Incursion experience: the MOM LOOT NINJA.
I am aware, that like normal high sec ops, people are capable of stealing and getting flagged. However, in the 80+ man environment of a MOM battle (with said MOM constantly dropping from overview), it is impossible to prevent an assault ship from stealing 100M in a second.
Player "Itc" today took our TS PDS and a BP for a Phantasm. How are we supposed to stop him? I could see scramming him in Low sec, or putting a bubble up in high sec, but tell me how High sec pilots are supposed to prevent people from taking the loot they worked all day to make. I'm just looking for a solution to what is obviously a design problem from CCP as I see it. How do you prevent someone from ninja-ing the main loot from high sec Moms? It's bad enough we get lower payouts, no Mom ship drops, and restricted Incursion opportunities due to sec. status(which we can grind, I understand, but my point being O.O doesn't have the problem), but this is simply wrong to have to deal with. Any 1 day old character could ninja this stuff, consequence free.
Awaiting your reply,
wtf
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Fel Wrath
Amarr
EdgeGamers
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Posted - 2011.02.23 01:47:00 -
[2]
+1
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Lilith Devilyn
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Posted - 2011.02.23 01:48:00 -
[3]
/agreed
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XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.02.23 02:09:00 -
[4]
Working as intended.
Also, don't cross post.
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DeathStar Cookie
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Posted - 2011.02.23 02:15:00 -
[5]
CCP fixed this already. All you have to do is target hims, scram him, and blow him up.
Also if your having this problem, go to lowsec, your in an eighty man fleet for gods sake, your not gonna get pirated, and if you do itll be an awesome fleet fight of win.
Rememeber kiddies this is not wow with handouts. If you want to carebear in highsec, you gotta deal with all the joys of it.
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Wtf Pwnage
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Posted - 2011.02.23 02:16:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Wtf Pwnage on 23/02/2011 02:16:16
They could just take the loot away. Or may the payout divided by the number of pilots correspondingly higher.
Got more than a drivel clichTd statement, or do you actually think productively about how to improve the game? Also, I'll cross post if the post reaches different target audiences. Thanks for reading, though.
wtf
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Wtf Pwnage
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Posted - 2011.02.23 02:19:00 -
[7]
So you're saying we can make a 5km area around the mom, where noone is allowed. Then, if someone goes in there, the game will know they aren't supposed to be there, and we can scram and not get Concorded? At what point do you suggest scramming him?
I only see being able to scram after he has the loot and is warping. Tell me how they fixed it. Links to CCP change log would be nice too, even though I trust you. |
XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.02.23 02:21:00 -
[8]
If you actually read anything about Incursions you'd know that the final loot is supposed to be up for grabs. You are guaranteed isk for sites + LP after the Mom is killed. The loot from the Mom is just like any other loot.
This isn't WoW or some other MMO. Loot is yours yes, but you still have to retrieve it. The mechanics are there for you to get the loot back. Don't come crying on the forums cause some guy stole your loot. Do something about it in game. |
Wtf Pwnage
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Posted - 2011.02.23 02:25:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Wtf Pwnage on 23/02/2011 02:27:21
How are you supposed to target every person capable of stealing your loot? In a carebear lvl 4 this is easy enough. Once you see someone getting close to your stuff, you can target and scram if they flag. In the ENVIRONMENT, it is impossible to scram someone without getting Concorded because but the time they flag they are gone. I say make people who flag around wrecks not able to warp for 1 minute. Smacktalk or something similar, except for stealing stuff that is clearly not yours.
And nobody likes a condescending prick. I know this isn't WOW, but it's obviously broken, and it apparently happens all the time. If it happened in 0.0 you would be all whiny too. We all pay the same amount to enjoy the game, so why even have loot drop off the Mom? |
XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.02.23 02:29:00 -
[10]
Sounds like you should just go to low sec or accept that your loot is not safe in high sec until its in your cargo.
CCP is not going to change loot mechanics because of this
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Wtf Pwnage
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Posted - 2011.02.23 02:41:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Wtf Pwnage on 23/02/2011 02:41:36
Well we're going to have to disagree then, because the game has changed (with the introduction of high density missions with 80+ on grid in high sec), so the loot mechanics might in fact need to change. There's no way to prevent someone from ganking it like there is in a regular lvl 4. So unless you live in high sec, and run Incursions like we do, I don't really see your stake in the matter.
Let's hear from people who actually run Incursion in high sec?
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XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.02.23 02:43:00 -
[12]
You like making assumptions I take it?
I've participated in a few low sec incursions and a few high sec incursions. Haven't had a problem with ninjas yet. And if we did, I wouldn't come to the forums to cry about it.
Are you really telling me your 80 man fleet couldn't stop a ninja?
And like I said before, you already get the LP/isk. The loot is a bonus.
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Wtf Pwnage
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Posted - 2011.02.23 02:50:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Wtf Pwnage on 23/02/2011 02:51:55
It was our 60 man fleet plus some other 60 man armor fleet (apologies) so 120 total on grid, and no none of us could stop him (lag too). If it was a shuttle, ok smartbomb the Mom, but if it's a bit bigger, but insanely fast, then gg. And if it's "just a bonus" why even offer it?
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XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.02.23 02:58:00 -
[14]
 Originally by: Wtf Pwnage
It was a 60 man fleet plus another 60 man armor fleet (apologies) so 120 total, and no none of us could stop him. If it was a shuttle, ok smartbomb the Mom, but if it's a bit bigger, but insanely fast, then gg. And if it's "just a bonus" why even offer it?
Have remote sensor boosted ceptors on standby to kill people like this?
Adapt.
Would you prefer CCP remove the bonus then? Seriously, the isk/LP you get from Incursions is more than enough. Not to mention the fact that it was a phantasm BPC and TS PDS? You do realize thats a total of about 120 million isk right?
You are complaining about 1mil isk/person.
Think about that for a second.
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Wtf Pwnage
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Posted - 2011.02.23 03:02:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Wtf Pwnage on 23/02/2011 03:04:05
I understand it was a loss of 2 mil per player in my fleet (the armor fleet wasn't with us), but that's not the point. The money is inconsequential. The point is a principle. I agree it should be possible for people to steal in high sec. It should also be possible to stop them. What I am saying is the latter is not possible, due to the amount of time it takes to steal, versus identifying, scramming, and asploding. And if you're wrong, you get Concorded. There's no way to see who is stealing until they warp. Pretty broken to me.
Wait, I know! Let's just cover all the exit gates with interceptors and hope we can get them on the other side. Oh wait. They can just warp to a safe spot until they flag off. See what I mean?
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XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.02.23 03:07:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Wtf Pwnage
It should also be possible to stop them.
It is.
Quote:
What I am saying is the latter is not possible, due to the amount of time it takes to steal, versus identifying, scramming, and asploding.
Configure your overview properly. Have ceptors on standby ready to tackle thieves. Think outside the box for a solution instead of whining to CCP
Quote:
And if you're wrong, you get Concorded. Pretty broken to me.
Its not broken. This is Eve. This is how things work.
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Wtf Pwnage
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Posted - 2011.02.23 03:10:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Wtf Pwnage on 23/02/2011 03:13:27
Edited by: Wtf Pwnage on 23/02/2011 03:10:45
You know what, you can come to our next Incursion. We'll hold 100M of your isk in escrow, and you can be Fleet Captain of the Anti-ninja-looting fleet. Do whatever strat you think works. If you prevent the ninja, you get your monies back. If not, well...that's eve huh. If not, don't post inane "solutions" b/c they're not especially useful.
Would be nice to put isk where your mouth is...because it's not like we haven't thought of "cutting edge" strats too man.
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XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.02.23 03:13:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Wtf Pwnage
Edited by: Wtf Pwnage on 23/02/2011 03:10:45
You know what, you can come to our next Incursion. We'll hold 100M of your isk in escrow, and you can be Fleet Captain of the Anti-ninja-looting fleet. Do whatever strat you think works. If you prevent the ninja, you get your monies back. If not, well...that's eve huh.
Would be nice to put isk where your mouth is. If not, don't post inane "solutions."
Whats inane about those solutions? Too complicated for you? Interceptor would have tackled that AF just fine.
And I thought the isk didn't matter?
Also its only 2 mil of mine apparently since its a 60 man fleet 
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Wtf Pwnage
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Posted - 2011.02.23 03:15:00 -
[19]
It doesn't, I'm just thinking of a way to make sure you take a risk as well. hell I'll even give you 100M more if you stop him. It really isn't about the money. Like I said, I'm willing to bet 100M you can't stop them. You should be willing to at least come out to try.
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Wtf Pwnage
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Posted - 2011.02.23 03:18:00 -
[20]
i just don't see an inteceptor 1) surviving in the fight 2) being able to pick out the thief out of 120+ people. That's my position.
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XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.02.23 03:21:00 -
[21]
Edited by: XXSketchxx on 23/02/2011 03:23:39
Edited by: XXSketchxx on 23/02/2011 03:22:06
Originally by: Wtf Pwnage
It doesn't, I'm just thinking of a way to make sure you take a risk as well. hell I'll even give you 100M more if you stop him. It really isn't about the money. Like I said, I'm willing to bet 100M you can't stop them. You should be willing to at least come out to try.
Risk as well? What are you risking? The loss of 2 mil? 
Anyway, message me when the next high sec incursion is coming to a close and I'll see if I can come by. Somehow I doubt most of the people in your fleet can even fly/fit ceptors or know how to configure their overview properly 
Edit: Have Ceptors a couple hundred km out of range. When the mom is close to die, burn in. They should be low on target priority and shouldn't have to deal with much.
One question. Is the thief from your fleet? Cause if so, you have an entirely different problem: your fleet is not a fleet, but a ragtag bunch of individuals looking out for themselves.
If he is not from your fleet, you can easily configure your overview to not show fleet members and thus be able to pick out the thief rather quickly.
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Wtf Pwnage
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Posted - 2011.02.23 03:23:00 -
[22]
We'll figure something out for payments, but I'll let you know the next High sec Incursion we run. Shield fleet, just fyi.
wtf
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Phattecia
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Posted - 2011.02.23 03:29:00 -
[23]
Greetings Pilots and Devs,
My name is Phatt. As "one of" the main shield fleet FC's, I see this as a very serious problem. Incursions are the hot new item that CCP has presented to the capsuleer population. While the chaotic nature of Eve reflects the real word, the fact that so many people can be robbed of what is to be the main "reward" of a group effort does seem to be a bit overbroad. Especially when said effort is sanctioned by what is supposed to be the police (Concord). Possible solutions of this problem inculde: locking the wreck to where only certain fleet members may access, transporting the loot to the nearest station (namely the FC's hanger hehe), or , as stated by the O.P., just removed the high sec drop totally. These are only a few of the possible options. As this is a important issue, i would advise CCP either respond to this, and explain why, or inform us that it is being looked into. I'm also fairly certain i can get approx. 300 petition's on this at the drop of a hat. No threats my dear devs, just a statement of facts, and a way to show you that players have determinded this is an issue that needs to be addressed.
Best regards,
Phatt
P.S. Thank you for a wonderful game. 07
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Wtf Pwnage
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Posted - 2011.02.23 03:30:00 -
[24]
To answer your question...there's no real way of knowing. Might be. Might not be. However, it is HIGHLY unlikely that a thief in our fleet would ever ninja loot (the last time it was Itc, as mentioned, who was not in our fleet), because the immediate consequence of ninja looting is never getting an invite from our group ever again. With that said, I don't think people you grind with and know from days and days of Incursions are going to risk ninja-looting in-fleet, so it's almost always a rogue element.
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XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.02.23 03:32:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Wtf Pwnage
To answer your question...there's no real way of knowing. Might be. Might not be. However, it is HIGHLY unlikely that a thief in our fleet would ever ninja loot (the last time it was Itc, as mentioned, who was not in our fleet), because the immediate consequence of ninja looting is never getting an invite from our group ever again. With that said, I don't think people you grind with and know from days and days of Incursions are going to risk ninja-looting in-fleet, so it's almost always a rogue element.
Then as I stated, you should be able to setup your overview such that you won't have to pick through 120 people to find the thief.
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Wtf Pwnage
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Posted - 2011.02.23 03:49:00 -
[26]
Best idea I've heard so far. Come on out and join us. Let's see it in action!
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Jeb Vacano
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Posted - 2011.02.23 03:58:00 -
[27]
Speaking as a ninja looter myself, yes it's too easy. I can grab the loot as i enter warp, and my Prophecy is specially fit for this kind of thing, so you need to be able to get several points on me within 1 second, or failing that deal 140k dmg in the that same time. Good luck. If you try to pick me off before i get the loot concord will mop the floor with you. And here's the kicker after they do, i will still get the loot, and i will loot and salvage your wrecks too.
P.S. Your snide comments about wow are just stupid. I ninja loot there too. 
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Frank Shitlitz
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Posted - 2011.02.23 04:04:00 -
[28]
Seeing as how the option to remove the drop all together is on the table indicates that the OP and his fleet do not care about the lewt per se. They only care that something that they thought was thiers was taken from them. Easy solution then: Fast locking ship--> shoot wreck before it can be looted. Everything will be destroyed, but its no different from removing the drop completely (for the "winning" fleet). It also gives fleets the option to lewt if circumstances are convenient.
The best part is CCP doesnt need to change a thing!
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De Guantanamo
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Posted - 2011.02.23 04:08:00 -
[29]
Easy fix:
Make Concord ineffective in Incursion constellations.
Enjoy the carnage.
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Frank Shitlitz
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Posted - 2011.02.23 04:14:00 -
[30]
Originally by: De Guantanamo
Easy fix:
Make Concord ineffective in Incursion constellations.
Enjoy the carnage.
This is totally smexy.
+1
+1
+1
Also: No sec hits.
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Jeb Vacano
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Posted - 2011.02.23 04:22:00 -
[31]
I can think of only one way to successfully ruin my day if I am going for your loot. Have one guy in a cheap tackle frig drop fleet, then the rest of you warp off while he scrams me. Even if concord kicks his ass I'll still be all alone against the mom. That's gonna hurt.
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Wtf Pwnage
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Posted - 2011.02.23 05:56:00 -
[32]
Not really ideal, since every second the fleet isn't in the fight is dps lost to another fleet. Remember, there's never just 1 fleet.
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Medarr
Amarr
ZeroSec
Excuses.
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Posted - 2011.02.23 06:55:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Wtf Pwnage
Not really ideal, since every second the fleet isn't in the fight is dps lost to another fleet. Remember, there's never just 1 fleet.
Not true we have done plenty of solo kills. Also.. use a smartbomb battleship like we did? That worked just fine ask the ninjas hehehe
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Wtf Pwnage
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Posted - 2011.02.23 07:15:00 -
[34]
Well while I'm sure solo kills happen, I think multiple fleets (2 fleets) is more common. Just my opinion. The smartbomb idea was tossed around today. We'll see. I don't think people like jeb will mind a little smartbomb dmg, but it may scare the shuttle ninjas away. Who knows.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2011.02.23 08:04:00 -
[35]
why should looting mechanics be different for incursions?
If you're in high sec, you have to follow high sec rules, which may imply ninja looters.
If you dont like it, go to lowsec or 0.0, there should be no problems like that.
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Junko Sideswipe
Autistic Sharks
Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.02.23 15:08:00 -
[36]
Welcome to teh own zone, population = yuo.
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Imiarr Timshae
Caldari
Funny Men In Funny Hats
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Posted - 2011.02.23 16:19:00 -
[37]
100m Loot Ninja looter is small time ninja looter. Quit whining.
-----
Originally by: GM Horse
Remember kids, both meth and macro use are Really Quite Bad Things.
Originally by: CCP Shadow
Tragic smelting accidents.
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Frank Shitlitz
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Posted - 2011.02.23 17:03:00 -
[38]
Seeing as how I would lurv it if drop rates from PvP were increased, I am tempted to go ninja some incursion loot and then just sit there waiting to be blown up. Nothing makes juicier whine threads than entitled people "losing" gear.
Now if I could only find the auto-loot bot script so many people use.
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Captain Brickwalle
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Posted - 2011.02.23 18:48:00 -
[39]
Oh this is an easy one.
Make wrecks done by fleets owned by the fleet not the player who made the final blow.
After that the mechanic for aggression is already in place. |
Frank Shitlitz
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Posted - 2011.02.23 21:10:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Captain Brickwalle
Oh this is an easy one.
Make wrecks done by fleets owned by the fleet not the player who made the final blow.
After that the mechanic for aggression is already in place.
The awesomeness of fleet ownership (not player/corp ownership)is far too great for these lowly forums!
Think of all the NPC corp goodness that can come of this!
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Swynet
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Posted - 2011.02.23 22:17:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Wtf Pwnage
Edited by: Wtf Pwnage on 23/02/2011 03:46:01
Today, during our successful shield fleet takedown of a Sansha Nation Mom in Amarr High sec, it came to my attention that CCP has not addressed what is apparently a very common and obviously broken Incursion experience: the MOM LOOT NINJA.
I am aware, that like normal high sec ops, people are capable of stealing and getting flagged. However, in the 80+ man environment of a MOM battle (with said MOM constantly dropping from overview), it is impossible to prevent an assault ship from stealing 100M in a second.
Player "Itc" today took our TS PDS and a BP for a Phantasm. How are we supposed to stop him? I could see scramming him in Low sec, or putting a bubble up in null sec, but tell me how High sec pilots are supposed to prevent people from taking the loot they worked all day to make. I'm just looking for a solution to what is obviously a design problem from CCP as I see it. How do you prevent someone from ninja-ing the main loot from high sec Moms? It's bad enough we get lower payouts, no Mom ship drops, and restricted Incursion opportunities due to sec. status(which we can grind, I understand, but my point being O.O doesn't have the problem), but this is simply wrong to have to deal with. Any 1 day old character could ninja this stuff, consequence free.
Awaiting your reply,
wtf
High sec is not ment to be the school of new players but killmail runners and yellow cowards paradise has you've seen by yourself. |
Wtf Pwnage
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Posted - 2011.02.24 01:20:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Wtf Pwnage on 24/02/2011 01:20:37
Yeah again today. Another Mom kill...and the loot didn't even drop. Or maybe it did, but loot scripts got it before any human had a chance. Also, the pirate is only flashy to the person who got a killing blow. No one else. So another difference between this and lvl 4 ninjas. At least you can shoot those guys.
Dev...can you please just take away the loot? Seriously.
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Ydyp Ieva
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2011.02.24 08:09:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Wtf Pwnage
Edited by: Wtf Pwnage on 24/02/2011 01:20:37
Yeah again today. Another Mom kill...and the loot didn't even drop. Or maybe it did, but loot scripts got it before any human had a chance. Also, the pirate is only flashy to the person who got a killing blow. No one else. So another difference between this and lvl 4 ninjas. At least you can shoot those guys.
Dev...can you please just take away the loot? Seriously.
One side you whining because you don't get loot, and then you ask to remove the loot? Either way you didn't get any loot so quit your whining about loot stealing if you don't want the loot anyway.
And as an earlier poster said, the only fix that is needed is that the wreck ownerships goes to the fleet with the most dps (the one that gets the LP).
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None of yet! |
Stygian Knight
Blood Covenant
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.24 09:05:00 -
[44]
working as intended
you dont like it? go to low sec and do it.
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Wtf Pwnage
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Posted - 2011.02.24 14:47:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Wtf Pwnage on 24/02/2011 14:53:28
Edited by: Wtf Pwnage on 24/02/2011 14:52:56
Edited by: Wtf Pwnage on 24/02/2011 14:48:56
Quote:
One side you whining because you don't get loot, and then you ask to remove the loot? Either way you didn't get any loot so quit your whining about loot stealing if you don't want the loot anyway.
And as an earlier poster said, the only fix that is needed is that the wreck ownerships goes to the fleet with the most dps (the one that gets the LP).
I am simply identifying a loot problem, which very obviously exists (as you pointed out, the whole fleet doesn't have rights, just 1 person). So. My point is, how are you supposed to stop them? The last post wasn't a whine, but an identification, that these players aren't even abiding by the EULA. They are using scripts to auto-loot before normal, hard-working players (actually doing Incursion) can even see it, much less target it.
And for everyone who says "go to low-sec", what does that even mean?? High sec Incursions wouldn't even get done if everyone followed your logic. Your solution to a problem is to run away? How do you handle your RL problems...?
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Gavjack Bunk
Gallente
Genos Occidere
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.24 14:54:00 -
[46]
CCP have a good track record on this.
Simply invoke the power of eleventy hundred carebear whine threads, wait three weeks. Epic Fix, the likes of which even the Gods have never seen.
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De Guantanamo
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Posted - 2011.02.24 16:12:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Wtf Pwnage
these players aren't even abiding by the EULA. They are using scripts to auto-loot before normal, hard-working players (actually doing Incursion) can even see it, much less target it.
And you can prove that can you?
Quote:
And for everyone who says "go to low-sec", what does that even mean?? High sec Incursions wouldn't even get done if everyone followed your logic. Your solution to a problem is to run away? How do you handle your RL problems...?
Not too bright are you? In low sec you could shoot people that are preparing to "steal" your loot prior to killing the mom. Thus, no potential loot thieves.
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Wtf Pwnage
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Posted - 2011.02.25 02:36:00 -
[48]
Originally by: De Guantanamo
Originally by: Wtf Pwnage
these players aren't even abiding by the EULA. They are using scripts to auto-loot before normal, hard-working players (actually doing Incursion) can even see it, much less target it.
And you can prove that can you?
Quote:
And for everyone who says "go to low-sec", what does that even mean?? High sec Incursions wouldn't even get done if everyone followed your logic. Your solution to a problem is to run away? How do you handle your RL problems...?
Not too bright are you? In low sec you could shoot people that are preparing to "steal" your loot prior to killing the mom. Thus, no potential loot thieves.
1) Sure you can prove it. it's just not worth it, since they'll just make a new account.
2) no I don't want to solve a High sec problem by going to low sec. How about fixing high sec? I never said there was a problem shooting people in low sec, or that it wasn't possible. Read my post, instead of implying I said something I didn't.
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Sillas Cov
Perkone
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Posted - 2011.02.25 02:45:00 -
[49]
Yes please deal with this Issue CCP Pilots work hard and need to be rewarded not have their loot nija-ed
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Gaufres
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Posted - 2011.02.25 04:39:00 -
[50]
No difference between what you are complaining about and mission thieves. Sucks doesn't it?
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Kalia Masaer
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
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Posted - 2011.02.25 05:44:00 -
[51]
This is about the main problem with eve, those who wish to break the laws are rewarded and protected by the same laws they break. The game is designed to help the criminal it seems and punish those who wish to act in a civilized manner. The mechanic of being able to be entering warp and grab the loot from a can truly approaches being an exploit. The fact a thief receives no aggression timer to prevent them from using gates or docking for even 30 seconds makes it all but impossible to catch them no matter how prepared you are in high sec.
The game doesn't have mechanically stop theft or so many other criminal type activities but the protections should wear down, steal to often and you should be criminally flagged, concord shouldn't come but anyone who wants to should be able to shoot you.
The is a broken sandbox skewed heavily in favor of the criminals and chaos, people who wish to enforce law are punished as severely as the criminals because it is so easy for the criminals to gain back sec status or just hid in an NPC corp that can't be dec'd. Even the current sov system is skewed heavily in favor of the attacker. Us people who wish to be law abiding citizens have little protection from those laws and those laws in turn make it very difficult to protect ourselves.
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Wet Dreamer
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Posted - 2011.02.25 12:45:00 -
[52]
Quote:
They are using scripts to auto-loot before normal, hard-working players (actually doing Incursion) can even see it, much less target it.
What about 'Bind on Pickup?'
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Gaufres
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Posted - 2011.02.25 14:56:00 -
[53]
I agree with you, Eve favors criminals and CCP does not want to do anything to change it or even balance it out. Many examples of this exist and have been discussed adnausium on the Forum.
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Fyrgen Hith
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Posted - 2011.02.25 19:19:00 -
[54]
As the Armor fleet has been commenting on for weeks, in high-sec there simply isn't any way you can shoot the looters after they've looted the mom and you 100% going to get concorded before hand. All we really want is the ability for the whole winning fleet to be able to shoo the looter. And as for the extra 1mil per person thing, yes and no, usually loot is given/sold&split to those that lose ships.
As said before unless you've been a lot of mom fights you don't get why is bothers us so much.
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De Guantanamo
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Posted - 2011.02.25 19:36:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Kalia Masaer
This is about the main problem with eve, those who wish to break the laws are rewarded and protected by the same laws they break. The game is designed to help the criminal it seems and punish those who wish to act in a civilized manner. The mechanic of being able to be entering warp and grab the loot from a can truly approaches being an exploit. The fact a thief receives no aggression timer to prevent them from using gates or docking for even 30 seconds makes it all but impossible to catch them no matter how prepared you are in high sec.
The game doesn't have mechanically stop theft or so many other criminal type activities but the protections should wear down, steal to often and you should be criminally flagged, concord shouldn't come but anyone who wants to should be able to shoot you.
The is a broken sandbox skewed heavily in favor of the criminals and chaos, people who wish to enforce law are punished as severely as the criminals because it is so easy for the criminals to gain back sec status or just hid in an NPC corp that can't be dec'd. Even the current sov system is skewed heavily in favor of the attacker. Us people who wish to be law abiding citizens have little protection from those laws and those laws in turn make it very difficult to protect ourselves.
Dude.
Its a game.
There are no laws..just some rules...like games have.
I think you need to remove yourself from it for a while...
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Kalia Masaer
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
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Posted - 2011.02.26 00:41:00 -
[56]
It is indeed a game, but I like being the good guy in games. In eve there are no good guys, just bad guys and victims that is stupid.
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2011.02.26 01:51:00 -
[57]
Originally by: De Guantanamo
Dude.
Its a game.
There are no laws..just some rules...like games have.
I think you need to remove yourself from it for a while...
Dude.
Games are supposed to be balanced.
There are nice players and asshat players ... like real life has.
If one of those groups is favoured, that means no balance, hence people post in this forum.
I think you shouldn't post in this forum if you don't get that concept.
___________________________________
Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
De Guantanamo
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Posted - 2011.02.26 01:58:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Originally by: De Guantanamo
Dude.
Its a game.
There are no laws..just some rules...like games have.
I think you need to remove yourself from it for a while...
Dude.
Games are supposed to be balanced.
There are nice players and asshat players ... like real life has.
If one of those groups is favoured, that means no balance, hence people post in this forum.
I think you shouldn't post in this forum if you don't get that concept.
you're an idiot
hes talking about laws in game like we should all play by some moral code
its a damn game...and the repercussions aren't imbalanced, there are penalties for doing "bad" things
it just so happens that in eve you can redeem yourself by ratting sec status
remind me again how there is an imbalance?
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Kalia Masaer
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
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Posted - 2011.02.26 02:35:00 -
[59]
Explain to me the repercussions of snatching loot as you are entering warp to dock immediately at a station, and you are in an NPC corp. Just wait out the aggro timer and huzza no one can do anything too you short of suicide ganking them. Or maybe they just do it on a free trial account.
Explain to me the repercussions of making a scamming alt. Well you never undock and always trade to the character so their is no trail to the main and when you think they might be recognized you create another account. So there are no consequences.
There are many activities like this where there are no repercussions leveled by the game mechanics or that can by leveled bye players, and you will tell me the game is balanced.
Try and police an area of low sec, your sec status will be lower than the pirates you are trying to prevent from killing people, because if you wait for someone to shoot first the miner you are protecting is dead. So essentially you become a criminal and have every disadvantage the pirates have with the disadvantage of having to identify you target or falling victim to people who hunt criminals.
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n00n3r
Caldari
Malicious Destruction
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Posted - 2011.02.26 03:55:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Captain Brickwalle
Oh this is an easy one.
Make wrecks done by fleets owned by the fleet not the player who made the final blow.
After that the mechanic for aggression is already in place.
Actually, it's the corporation that laid the final blow. Since you guys are flying all public fleets, you're easy pickings for ninja looters.
Sounds to me like a good reason to join an Incursion Corp. It wouldn't matter how well that ship is tanked if 50 people scram/alpha him.
Just saying..
n00n
_____________________________________________
Interested in Incursions? Check out our recruitment thread here: Link |
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XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.02.26 04:38:00 -
[61]
How about a 30km Warp disruption field where the mom is with a ton of HP?
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Wtf Pwnage
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Posted - 2011.02.26 06:28:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Wtf Pwnage on 26/02/2011 06:34:03
We're going to create a separate group to deal with the ninjas. It'll get them off the grid right before the mom goes into 1/2 armor so they can't reship. The alts we use will get concorded, but it'll just be alts fighting the ninjas, so it doesn't matter.
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tla s'hpyt
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Posted - 2011.02.26 08:28:00 -
[63]
hehehe
Whenever we get some broken mechanic like this we always see a bunch of pirates propose some foolproof and easy way to counteract the problem. It's god damn hilarious listening to some of the plans they come up with to counter these broken mechanics. It's like watching a bunch of miners try to make eft titan setups.
Let's see all we need is a 2nd fleet of insta lock cepters and smartbomb bs's ready to get themselves concorded to stop 1 guy from stealing 100 mil..... oh and there's a chance it won't even work lol.
Almost beats those guys suggesting we should intentionally not update our clones and keep hulk mining fleets at battle speed while mining in empire.
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De Guantanamo
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Posted - 2011.02.26 14:45:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Wtf Pwnage
Edited by: Wtf Pwnage on 26/02/2011 06:34:03
We're going to create a separate group to deal with the ninjas. It'll get them off the grid right before the mom goes into 1/2 armor so they can't reship. The alts we use will get concorded, but it'll just be alts fighting the ninjas, so it doesn't matter.
Well look at that. You found a solution with current game mechanics.
Bravo.
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Frank Shitlitz
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Posted - 2011.02.26 15:37:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Frank ****litz on 26/02/2011 15:38:14
Originally by: Wtf Pwnage
Edited by: Wtf Pwnage on 26/02/2011 06:34:03
We're going to create a separate group to deal with the ninjas. It'll get them off the grid right before the mom goes into 1/2 armor so they can't reship. The alts we use will get concorded, but it'll just be alts fighting the ninjas, so it doesn't matter.
Since you put it out here on the forums...make sure you get the sec up after concordokken since there will now be some people watching that you dont recycle alts.
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Tom Peeping
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Posted - 2011.02.27 01:41:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Wtf Pwnage
Edited by: Wtf Pwnage on 23/02/2011 03:04:05
I understand it was a loss of 2 mil per player in my fleet (the armor fleet wasn't with us), but that's not the point. The money is inconsequential. The point is a principle. I agree it should be possible for people to steal in high sec. It should also be possible to stop them. What I am saying is the latter is not possible, due to the amount of time it takes to steal, versus identifying, scramming, and asploding. And if you're wrong, you get Concorded. There's no way to see who is stealing until they warp. Pretty broken to me.
Wait, I know! Let's just cover all the exit gates with interceptors and hope we can get them on the other side. Oh wait. They can just warp to a safe spot until they flag off. See what I mean?
actually, those are the types of steps you might consider. If they log off while aggressed, you also have plenty of time to scan them, so that was just a bizarre response you gave. There's more that you can do to.... but if you don't already know what, then it's not worth talking with you, because you'll obviously just go nu-uhhh! the way you are already doing with others.
HTFU dudette... seriously. Working as intended. Sorry to hear you had trouble handling a VERY common situation.
Working as intended.
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Shieko Chan
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Posted - 2011.02.27 04:50:00 -
[67]
doesn't sound broken.
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Kalia Masaer
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
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Posted - 2011.02.27 23:44:00 -
[68]
Obviously many people don't understand the for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Thief takes loot can't be tackled because they are already entering warp when they snatch the loot from the can. Players who were robbed want to react to the thief, but the thief has immediately docked with loot since there is no aggression timer stopping him. So they decide we will wardec this bastard, turns out he is in an NPC corp so no wardec. So well maybe we will just mark him red and have some people kill him next time before he strikes.
Two options at this point, concord comes and blows up the ships that killed the thief or thief never comes back as the trial account lapses and they create a new one. Well those sec hits have made it so people assigned to stop the thief are having serious problems, so alt account but recycling those are against the EULA so there is the threat of the ban hammer.
So we end up with another option ***** in the forums about a broken game.
If you could identify who the thief gave their money to it is not broken because there can be a reaction, if the thief had an aggression timer that wouldn't let them dock for a time it would be less broken but they would just warping to a safe and cloak up.
Please use your brains, if I use mine I can steal loot from anyone of you in high sec unless you want to get concorded and I can do it again and again. And if you start getting concorded killing my alt rookie ship the next thing that will happen is your sec status will drop so low you can't even be in high sec. And I suffer no consequences other than losing just a little bit of time and some rookie ships that cost me nothing.
I play EVE because it is hard and it is ruthless, I don't want it to be a paradise I just don't want it to be possible for people to do things and escape any consequence. If there were not alt accounts we would not have almost all of these problems but since we do we they must be considered and the mechanics adjusted accordingly.
So if anyone has the intelligence to put forth how doing that is the game working as intended in a way that would even give me pause, I would be very impressed. Mostly I suspect the people in this thread are just trolling or are the people abusing the activities bordering on exploits themselves.
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Insane Randomness
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Posted - 2011.02.28 01:35:00 -
[69]
Or, you know, you could just have someone sit on top of the MOM so that when it's destroyed they can grab it...
And if you can't target an AF in an 80 man fleet, thats your own damn fault, so stop saying the systems broken. There are a lot of other people whom have a lot better reasons to complain than you...
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Wtf Pwnage
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Posted - 2011.03.02 15:03:00 -
[70]
Originally by: De Guantanamo
Originally by: Wtf Pwnage
Edited by: Wtf Pwnage on 26/02/2011 06:34:03
We're going to create a separate group to deal with the ninjas. It'll get them off the grid right before the mom goes into 1/2 armor so they can't reship. The alts we use will get concorded, but it'll just be alts fighting the ninjas, so it doesn't matter.
Well look at that. You found a solution with current game mechanics.
Bravo.
Condescending response aside, no it isn't a solution when the ninjas use scripts to autoloot. Wish I could autoloot. Might be fun to actually see the wreck once.
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Wtf Pwnage
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Posted - 2011.03.02 15:06:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Tom Peeping
Originally by: Wtf Pwnage
Edited by: Wtf Pwnage on 23/02/2011 03:04:05
I understand it was a loss of 2 mil per player in my fleet (the armor fleet wasn't with us), but that's not the point. The money is inconsequential. The point is a principle. I agree it should be possible for people to steal in high sec. It should also be possible to stop them. What I am saying is the latter is not possible, due to the amount of time it takes to steal, versus identifying, scramming, and asploding. And if you're wrong, you get Concorded. There's no way to see who is stealing until they warp. Pretty broken to me.
Wait, I know! Let's just cover all the exit gates with interceptors and hope we can get them on the other side. Oh wait. They can just warp to a safe spot until they flag off. See what I mean?
actually, those are the types of steps you might consider. If they log off while aggressed, you also have plenty of time to scan them, so that was just a bizarre response you gave. There's more that you can do to.... but if you don't already know what, then it's not worth talking with you, because you'll obviously just go nu-uhhh! the way you are already doing with others.
HTFU dudette... seriously. Working as intended. Sorry to hear you had trouble handling a VERY common situation.
Working as intended.
why would they warp to a safe spot and log off? Who the hell would even do that? So no, you can't scan them down. They're going to be moving until the aggression wears off, then gg. Autoloot FTW.
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Kalia Masaer
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
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Posted - 2011.03.02 15:31:00 -
[72]
Or warp to safe and cloak, until timer is up.
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Wtf Pwnage
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Posted - 2011.03.02 17:37:00 -
[73]
Kelnarn Shaelingrath just posted a Fleet Aggression thread for Incursion. That would work too.
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Kelnarn Shaelingrath
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Posted - 2011.03.03 23:49:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Wtf Pwnage
Kelnarn Shaelingrath just posted a Fleet Aggression thread for Incursion. That would work too.
Thanks for the mention, and while I saw many "options" posted in this thread, I didn't see many that actually addressed or touched on the actual problem with the mechanics of a "public" fleet in an incursion site...
now n00ner posted a response that shows without a doubt that he has not read or understood CCP's premise and intent in the incursions.. (no offense intended n00ner, just like you were told in the other thread, your proposal is an invalid one in light of CCP's intent so I'm just saying what they said too... and dude?, what legit "incursion corp" has a tax rate over 0.0%?, but that's a topic for a different discussion i guess....)
All CCP has to do is make it so that the thief gets aggression against "ALL" members of the public fleet and then that fleet has the ability to react within CCP's mechanics.. as it is, the current game mechanics do (as someone else stated) favor a single group of players in the game by making the thief turn red only to the player who gets the kill and to their corp and all most of us want is an even playing field, nothing more, nothing less.
Also, again, no offense intended, but to those of you who keep saying "you do have a way", I call Bullhockey on that statement.. not a single one of you have described a viable option to counter this that both falls within the game's current mechanics, CCP's premise for incursions, and the "public" fleet composition aspect of it...
Give us a reasonable opportunity to decide whether we want to send that player back to his home station for a new clone or not in the same manner as we are able to do in almost ANY other situation without retaliation from the popo... and we'll take it from there, but tell us "sucks to be you" and you will have skewed the game's balance in favor of a small group of players.
+1 and a bump too...
JMHO
Bill
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Desert Ice78
Gryphon River Industries
R-I-P
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Posted - 2011.03.04 02:44:00 -
[75]
What about where we have multiple fleets running the same incursion together? How do we know who is the legitimate fleet grunt and who is the opportunist ninja salvager?
If I was a ninja salvager, I could think of at least one way in which I might be able to use such game mechanics to lay claim to the final drop (canÆt say right now if it would actually work though.)
Considering the nature of the Incursions and their sites, I believe that CCP fully expected that this would happen, and so ôworking as intended.ö
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Kelnarn Shaelingrath
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Posted - 2011.03.04 04:17:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Kelnarn Shaelingrath on 04/03/2011 04:21:14
Originally by: Desert Ice78
What about where we have multiple fleets running the same incursion together? How do we know who is the legitimate fleet grunt and who is the opportunist ninja salvager?
If I was a ninja salvager, I could think of at least one way in which I might be able to use such game mechanics to lay claim to the final drop (canÆt say right now if it would actually work though.)
Considering the nature of the Incursions and their sites, I believe that CCP fully expected that this would happen, and so ôworking as intended.ö
The biggest issue I see with this is not that someone "could" steal the loot, anything can be stolen in EVE given the right circumstances, it's that 99% of the people don't have the opportunity to do anything about it, or even "try" to do anything about it without Concord coming and touching their Butt.. outside of that, it's understood that whoever gets that cargo hold open first and drags the items out, gets it and should have to deal with the consequences of their actions...
Granted, I would love to see the wreck locked to anyone but the winning fleet, (IE. most DPS and they got paid) but that's probably asking a bit too much, however, what I would like to see is the members of that fleet at least have the option to hunt the thief down as opposed to just one or two people (if they're lucky) having that opportunity, and not just the MOM fight either, I have an idea for "Public Fleet Aggression" mechanics in incursion systems with very specific rules involved that will afford the fleet members the ability to chose whether or not to do something.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.04 04:33:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Kelnarn Shaelingrath
I have an idea for "Public Fleet Aggression" mechanics in incursion systems with very specific rules involved that willà
àmake them teach people all the wrong things and make them ripe with exploits. Bad idea.
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
Desert Ice78
Gryphon River Industries
R-I-P
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Posted - 2011.03.04 04:46:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Kelnarn Shaelingrath
I have an idea for "Public Fleet Aggression" mechanics in incursion systems with very specific rules involved that willà
àmake them teach people all the wrong things and make them ripe with exploits. Bad idea.
No, no, no.
The idea is still sound despite your denials. You steal from my can, I and my fleet gets to kill you. Where is the confusion with that?
Of course, if you then have you logistic alt try to help you the can flipper, he will of course then inherit the agro, which you wouldn't want, would you Tippia? Would be much better if your logistic alt gets a nice little pop-up warning that he is about to inherit someone elses agro, wouldn't it? Might save you your ship.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.04 05:00:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Tippia on 04/03/2011 05:03:46
Originally by: Desert Ice78
The idea is still sound despite your denials. You steal from my can, I and my fleet gets to kill you. Where is the confusion with that?
The confusion lies in the fact that either you make it a special case for incursions, or you open up for (essentially) the return of Lofty.
In the former case, people will learn the wrong lessons and get themselves killed in new spectacular way when they expect the rules they have learned to apply elsewhere (and as others threads on the topic has shown, they already have problems understanding some very basic game mechanics ù burdening them with even more won't help).
In the latter case, you (re)open up for a whole slew of ganking tactics that have long since been excised from the game, and which will only lead to these people getting themselves killed in new and spectacular ways (albeit different ones than in the previous case).
àand that's we even begin to address the issues of actually assigning the ownership. As it is, the loot is just another part of the competition. Win it and youà wellà win. Lose it and you lose. If people can't prepare for it and snatch it up, maybe they don't deserve to get it and should try harder?
Quote:
Of course, if you then have you logistic alt try to help you the can flipper, he will of course then inherit the agro, which you wouldn't want, would you Tippia?
Why wouldn't I want that? When did I say anything that suggested that I wanted to see the mechanics change? You do know that this already is the case, right? Like I said: why burden people who can't even learn the basics with even more rules and special casesà?
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
Wtf Pwnage
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Posted - 2011.03.05 00:45:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 04/03/2011 05:03:46
Originally by: Desert Ice78
The idea is still sound despite your denials. You steal from my can, I and my fleet gets to kill you. Where is the confusion with that?
The confusion lies in the fact that either you make it a special case for incursions, or you open up for (essentially) the return of Lofty.
In the former case, people will learn the wrong lessons and get themselves killed in new spectacular way when they expect the rules they have learned to apply elsewhere (and as others threads on the topic has shown, they already have problems understanding some very basic game mechanics ù burdening them with even more won't help).
In the latter case, you (re)open up for a whole slew of ganking tactics that have long since been excised from the game, and which will only lead to these people getting themselves killed in new and spectacular ways (albeit different ones than in the previous case).
àand that's we even begin to address the issues of actually assigning the ownership. As it is, the loot is just another part of the competition. Win it and youà wellà win. Lose it and you lose. If people can't prepare for it and snatch it up, maybe they don't deserve to get it and should try harder?
Quote:
Of course, if you then have you logistic alt try to help you the can flipper, he will of course then inherit the agro, which you wouldn't want, would you Tippia?
Why wouldn't I want that? When did I say anything that suggested that I wanted to see the mechanics change? You do know that this already is the case, right? Like I said: why burden people who can't even learn the basics with even more rules and special casesà?
These toons use scripts. That much is clear, and CCP should be present at each MOM fight with GM's monitoring all players for EULA violations. The looting field should be equally available to all, not just to some day old characters with looting scripts. That is my stance on the issue.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.05 00:50:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Wtf Pwnage
These toons use scripts. That much is clear
How so?
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
Frank Shitlitz
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Posted - 2011.03.05 02:49:00 -
[82]
Also: Tippia is obviously a can baiter based in a some L1 mission hub who ganks noobs. If he wasn't then he would not be against giving people in noob corps a fighting chance against this style of play.
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Wtf Pwnage
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Posted - 2011.03.06 08:32:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Wtf Pwnage
These toons use scripts. That much is clear
How so?
I do not personally use scripts, so I do not know how they use them. Is that what you're asking with your impossibly ambiguous question?
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Centri Sixx
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Posted - 2011.03.06 13:49:00 -
[84]
Tippia, why are you so fixated on griefing incursions? You want to keep a change in place that makes it easy to kill logis due to no warning. You argue that giving the wrong message about mechanics is of higher priority than letting players who did all the work in clearing an incursion not lose their reward entirely to some random pre-aligned ship.
I'm sorry, people doing incursions are not new and will not suffer if incursions have a few special mechanics that differ from the rest of EVE. We don't have system-wide chat channels that pop up in the rest of space, nor do we have debuffs in incursion space: new players aren't troubled by those differing mechanics much.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.06 14:18:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Wtf Pwnage
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Wtf Pwnage
These toons use scripts. That much is clear
How so?
I do not personally use scripts, so I do not know how they use them. Is that what you're asking with your impossibly ambiguous question?
No. I'm asking how you know. How is it clear?
Originally by: Frank ****litz
Also: Tippia is obviously a can baiter based in a some L1 mission hub who ganks noobs. If he wasn't then he would not be against giving people in noob corps a fighting chance against this style of play.
So you agree with me then, seeing as how you have no kind of argument and have to resort to ad hominems instead. Good.
Also, you managed to be incorrect in every way conceivable in that post. That's quite an achievement. 
Originally by: Centri Sixx
Tippia, why are you so fixated on griefing incursions? You want to keep a change in place that makes it easy to kill logis due to no warning. You argue that giving the wrong message about mechanics is of higher priority than letting players who did all the work in clearing an incursion not lose their reward entirely to some random pre-aligned ship.
I'm not. I'm not arguing against a logi change ù I'm arguing against calling a mechanics change a "bugfix" and against mechanics changes that, due to the proponents unfamiliarity with said mechanics, will only make his situation worse.
But yes, consistent mechanics is more important than solving laziness and unwillingness to compete. They don't lose "their reward" ù they lose one reward because they failed to prepare properly. It's a competitive environment. If they don't compete, they lose. How is that in any way odd or wrong?
Quote:
I'm sorry, people doing incursions are not new and will not suffer if incursions have a few special mechanics that differ from the rest of EVE.
Apparently, they willà considering how confused they are by well-known, system-wide mechanics that have been in place for years.
Quote:
We don't have system-wide chat channels that pop up in the rest of space, nor do we have debuffs in incursion space.
Uhmà yes we do.
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
Wtf Pwnage
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Posted - 2011.03.06 18:19:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Wtf Pwnage on 06/03/2011 18:21:21
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Wtf Pwnage
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Wtf Pwnage
These toons use scripts. That much is clear
How so?
I do not personally use scripts, so I do not know how they use them. Is that what you're asking with your impossibly ambiguous question?
No. I'm asking how you know. How is it clear?
In a fleet of 120+ no one sees the wreckage 7/10 times and IF we do see it, it's salvaged instantly. Have you been reading this thread? There are people who have mentioned looting scripts, and it doesn't take much to figure out the cost benefit of disposable accounts compared to quick sells for billion isk ninja BPCs. Given the moral options Eve gives you in-game, why not bend the rules even further IRL? CCP has even banned script usage, thus indicating it is/has been used, and is an offense to the way they see their game being played, as it gives some players an unfair advantage. Are you seriously denying scripts are used in EVE? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.06 18:22:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Wtf Pwnage
In a fleet of 120+ no one sees the wreckage 7/10 times and IF we do see it, it's salvaged instantly.
Yes? So how do you know they're using looting scripts?
That's no different from the good old days of Jita ganks, where people would do the same to the victim's wreck. |
Wtf Pwnage
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Posted - 2011.03.06 18:23:00 -
[88]
Quote:
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I'm sorry, people doing incursions are not new and will not suffer if incursions have a few special mechanics that differ from the rest of EVE.
Apparently, they willà considering how confused they are by well-known, system-wide mechanics that have been in place for years.
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We don't have system-wide chat channels that pop up in the rest of space, nor do we have debuffs in incursion space.
Uhmà yes we do.
What parts of normal space have debuffs like Incursion? |
Wtf Pwnage
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Posted - 2011.03.06 18:28:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Wtf Pwnage on 06/03/2011 18:28:57
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Wtf Pwnage
In a fleet of 120+ no one sees the wreckage 7/10 times and IF we do see it, it's salvaged instantly.
Yes? So how do you know they're using looting scripts?
That's no different from the good old days of Jita ganks, where people would do the same to the victim's wreck.
Good old days? Are you implying it doesn't happen anymore? What in the world would make such a "fun" scripting EULA-violation go away? Just because you like scripting, doesn't mean CCP will. I think I agree with having everyone being afforded a chance to loot, just not with scripts. And if you loot, then there should be fleet-wide aggression, at a minimum. Or they can remove the loot. Or increase the rewards to the winning fleet AND remove the loot...lotsa options. That is the point of this thread. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.06 18:34:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Tippia on 06/03/2011 18:37:28
Originally by: Wtf Pwnage
What parts of normal the rest of space have debuffs like Incursion?
W-Space.
àand if I wanted to be flippant, I'd point out that he said incursions didn't have debuffs.
Quote:
Good old days? Are you implying it doesn't happen anymore?
Pretty much. Due to the incessant whining, ganks have been made pretty rare these days, so you can't make any good money sitting around and beating the attackers to the loot. You'd think they'd be anxious to get it, wouldn't you, yet quick fingers and being prepared would commonly beat themà
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What in the world would make such a "fun" scripting EULA-violation go away?
No EULA violations there, just plain old legal ganks and plain old legal thefts.
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And you never answered my question, Tippia. Are you seriously denying scripts are used in EVE?
Irrelevant. I'm asking you how you know they're using scripts. So far, it seems you don't ù you're just hoping they do.
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
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Frank Shitlitz
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Posted - 2011.03.06 22:00:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Tippia
So you agree with me then, seeing as how you have no kind of argument and have to resort to ad hominems instead. Good.
1000% logic gold right there.
As for the second part: I know. It was p. cool huh!
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Wtf Pwnage
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Posted - 2011.03.07 17:17:00 -
[92]
To Tippia and the other would-be detractors of anything new or different. It is useless to argue any points with you and your ilk, because, like sweetly caressing a pig, we would all end up dirty, and the pig would enjoy it.
You can pretend that Eve is a perfect system where all rules are consistent everywhere, but the fact of the matter is that it simply is not true. Things can and do change. You are asking people to prove that botters, and script users exist in specific instances, knowing full well CCP does not disclose the results of their user reprimands. Any reasonable person knows auto looting is being used, and if you choose to ignore the reality of it, then I suppose that's your right. You can choose to be crazy if you want, but it doesn't mean we have to agree with your crazy world where nobody has ever gotten a EULA violation because I can't prove they have.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.07 17:30:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Wtf Pwnage
You can pretend that Eve is a perfect system where all rules are consistent everywhere, but the fact of the matter is that it simply is not true.
Who's pretending that?
Quote:
You are asking people to prove that botters, and script users exist in specific instances, knowing full well CCP does not disclose the results of their user reprimands.
No. I'm asking you how you know these people are using scripts. You haven't shown that you do.
All you've shown is a situation where you think there is no other explanation to how things disappear so quickly. I have seen similar situations where, even if scripts were used, they were beaten by quick fingers. So your single explanation does not hold water on its own. Thus the questionà
àhow do you know?
Quote:
Any reasonable person knows auto looting is being used
How do they know that?
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
Wtf Pwnage
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Posted - 2011.03.07 17:49:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Wtf Pwnage
You can pretend that Eve is a perfect system where all rules are consistent everywhere, but the fact of the matter is that it simply is not true.
Who's pretending that?
Quote:
You are asking people to prove that botters, and script users exist in specific instances, knowing full well CCP does not disclose the results of their user reprimands.
No. I'm asking you how you know these people are using scripts. You haven't shown that you do.
All you've shown is a situation where you think there is no other explanation to how things disappear so quickly. I have seen similar situations where, even if scripts were used, they were beaten by quick fingers. So your single explanation does not hold water on its own. Thus the questionà
àhow do you know?
Quote:
Any reasonable person knows auto looting is being used
How do they know that?
In a fleet of 120+ the loot is consistently clicked faster than our fastest clickers? That's a dead giveaway right there. People who run plexes, Incursion, PvP, and have played Eve longer than you or me don't have an opportunity to even see the loot, then looting scripts are being used. Deny it all you want. The statistics of it don't lie. All other things being equal, 120+ people should have a least a small chance of out-clicking a ninja looter. As this has not happened in multiple, multiple engagements, then my conclusion becomes more valid. It's funny to hear the argument, "well you should learn how to click faster." Maybe CCP should pay closer attention to the Mom fights.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.07 17:57:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Wtf Pwnage
Deny it all you want.
I'm not denying it, I'm asking you how you know. And yes, statistics do lie quite oftenà
Quote:
It's funny to hear the argument, "well you should learn how to click faster."
That is not my argument. Try reading what I'm writing instead of dreaming up what you hope I'm saying: I have seen similar situations where, even if scripts were used, they were beaten by quick fingers. So your single explanation does not hold water on its own.
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
noldevin
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Posted - 2011.03.11 00:47:00 -
[96]
Tippia, no one can know with absolute proof that scripts are in use...
However,
No one can argue that it is suspicious that a few people can consistently out-click 120 people all trying to click the same thing before them, while aligning and being ready to warp out immediately.
If it were a rare occasion, your arguments would be completely valid and no one would have right to complain.
But that is not the case, and further investigation is needed by CCP.
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