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Daega Mordain
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Posted - 2011.03.06 11:46:00 -
[1]
Just fell for this one, and can't say it didn't hurt my wallet badly. I'm a pretty savvy guy, never been scammed in any game up to this point. Perhaps, I should of known better, but the item I fell for the market is messed up enough it has spikes as high as what I was looking at in the market history. There were no less than 3 buy orders, with varying times left on them, they had to have been made more than a day apart and at various time, by the remaining time on them. Sure there were a couple more buy orders for less, but that's typical for anything. I wasn't being excessively greedy, just stood to make 30 or 40 mil on 775mil I ended up losing.
I was being pretty wary, if you can't tell, assuming it was a scam in fact, but couldn't find anything wrong with it. When the sells didn't go through I assumed the guy actually cancelled the orders as soon as I purchased the contract, til someone clued me in different. I could of actually lived with that, and given the guy kudos for being quick, with a good, but risky scam. When I figured out what actually happened I can't help but be disapointed that CCP mechanics allow such a thing.
I'm a pretty new player, made this alt a week after I made my main, which is in Eve Uni. I try to stay informed. In fact just took an Eve Uni class on scamming today, in hopes of avoiding them, which didn't mention this scam. I also read the forums a ton, and sadly hadn't seen this scam anywhere, until I did a search on it just now.
I just figure since it's not mentioned here in the first few pages a thread mentioning it might save someone else some grief. I also have to say again, buy orders that can't be filled simply shouldn't show up at all on the market, any way you put it, that's just a mistake on CCP's part that serves only to allow griefing.
I'm loving the game so far, but this was a pretty disappointing moment for me. It's a somewhat devastating loss but I'll manage to carry on this time. It doesn't bother me so much that I fell for a scam, as it does that when I look back I don't really feel I made a stupid decision, based on the information at hand. I applaud CCP for standing back, and letting people scam, unlike some other games, but they shouldn't leave in such an easily exploitable mechanic, that has no risk at all for the scammer.
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Darius III
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Posted - 2011.03.06 12:09:00 -
[2]
I was there in Jita the day this was originally introduced on C&P. I believe it should be fixed and will vote that way if ever I get a chance and get elected CSM VI
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2011.03.06 12:27:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Darius III I was there in Jita the day this was originally introduced on C&P. I believe it should be fixed and will vote that way if ever I get a chance and get elected CSM VI
How exactly were you planning on fixing this?
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Legolas Greenleaf
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Posted - 2011.03.06 12:38:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Legolas Greenleaf on 06/03/2011 12:38:26 Punishing people who don't understand the game mechanics is EXACTLY what this game is all about. Working as (not quite) intended, IMO.
Besides, any potential "fix" would likely break any legitimate use of the skill in the first place.
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Gavin DeVries
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Posted - 2011.03.06 13:12:00 -
[5]
So what exactly is the "scam" here anyway? If you already had the product in question, then a sale failure because the buy order had insufficient funds left you with the product to sell in a different place or at a later time. If you went and purchase the product intending to sell to a buy order then it's a trade failure rather than a scam. ______________________________________________________ PVP is a question that has no one right answer but a lot of wrong ones. - Aelana Anais
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trance atlas
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Posted - 2011.03.06 14:46:00 -
[6]
margin trading allows you to place a buy order for less than it cost and only takes the rest of your money when it is filled
i have margin trading i place a buy order for 100 mpl2 and instead of costing me 310 mil it cost me 150 mil lets say. i then empty my wallet and wait, when you try to fill it and i do not have enough isk to fill the 160(150initial+160remainder=310) thats left over my order goes away and you are left with the items. which someone sold to you at a overinflated price
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2011.03.06 14:59:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Legolas Greenleaf Edited by: Legolas Greenleaf on 06/03/2011 12:38:26 Punishing people who don't understand the game mechanics is EXACTLY what this game is all about. Working as (not quite) intended, IMO.
Besides, any potential "fix" would likely break any legitimate use of the skill in the first place.
Maybe you could put in an additional condition when putting up a market order. Basicly have the minimum required isk, that gets tied to the order, be either determined by your margin trading skill like normal or the minimum volume needed to fill one delivery(isk offered * minimum volume). The one that results in higher amount of isk getting tied is then used.
This would guarantee that at least one delivery can be made to any order before it cancels out due to lack of funds. If you want to keep the amount of isk tied to a minimum, you set the minimum volume needed to 1 unit. If you set it to higher, you have to tie at least the amount needed to pay one full delivery. This would guarantee that every active order has a minimum of actual substance backing it.
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Small Steamed Bun
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Posted - 2011.03.06 15:33:00 -
[8]
margin works irl because you are an actual being that can be held accountable for your debts. if the wallet was to go into negative it would simply create isk. any sort of rl margin type of trade will always have this possible outcome in a game that allows multiple chars. it isnt a scam per se (no one is taking isk from you ..you choose to buy the items legit) but a conflict of different realities. |
Sakide
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Posted - 2011.03.06 16:09:00 -
[9]
the skill is working as intended, dont expect every unrealistic buyorder to be available.
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Daega Mordain
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Posted - 2011.03.06 20:06:00 -
[10]
The actual scam is they sell the item for the inflated price, either in another station, or as a contract, and the the buy orders are no good, so I end up with an item worth a fraction of what all the in game information was telling me. I probably should of explained it better, but I severely edited a couple paragraph's before posting, not wanting to make it even more widespread.
Why am I to expect a buy order to be unrealistic when the market history is wrong and there are more buy orders up for the wrong price, than the right one? I expect people to lie to me, I don't expect the game too. Sure it's an elaborate scam, but it's different than any other scam in the CCP is an active partner in it. I don't trust other people without reason, I should be able to trust the information CCP provides to me.
If a buy order cannot be filled that buy order should come down. End of story. It shouldn't wait until someone tries to fill it. That's not realistic in any since. If that's beyond the programming capabilities to do reasonably then margin trading should be removed and skill points refunded until it can be implemented correctly.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2011.03.06 20:34:00 -
[11]
if it looks too good to be true....
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Daega Mordain
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Posted - 2011.03.06 20:39:00 -
[12]
Why should 40mil profit on 775 mil look too good to be true? It's about 5%. It's not like a fell for some stupid double your money scam.
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Internet White Knight
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Posted - 2011.03.06 23:35:00 -
[13]
The clue is someone selling something in a contract that would net them more selling to a buy order. Or urgently wanting something with a WTB contract they could buy themselves.
Same as "cheap" plexes "Omg omg need ISK nao buy my plex for only 300m!". Anything like that should set the alarm bells off pretty quickly. |
Daega Mordain
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Posted - 2011.03.07 00:24:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Daega Mordain on 07/03/2011 00:25:07
Originally by: Internet White Knight The clue is someone selling something in a contract that would net them more selling to a buy order. Or urgently wanting something with a WTB contract they could buy themselves.
Same as "cheap" plexes "Omg omg need ISK nao buy my plex for only 300m!". Anything like that should set the alarm bells off pretty quickly.
It does, and that's why I checked it thoroughly. Literally not 5 minutes before this I bought a nighthawk with stupid rigs off a contract, repackaged it and sold it for a 20 million isk profit to a buy order. It is possible to make money doing stuff like that. Still I'm wary, so I check the market history...it's pretty crazy, fluctuating from 20 mil to 120 mil, several times in the recent past. I look at the sell orders, 5 or 6 on the market for over 100mil. I look at the buy orders closely, there are 5 of them, for different amounts,3 I can profit from, that couldn't of been made in less than a 48 hour period given the times remaining same thing for. There are 2 regional ones for 4 or 5 million as well. Nothing there that sets off alarms since almost every item out there has a some idiot trying to buy it for nothing region wide.
People are lazy sometimes they just don't check the value of what they are selling. These items were wrapped up with about 10 other items as well. It pretty much looked like a guy was just cleaning house and wanted to be rid of the junk sitting in the station. Sometimes they don't want to fly a few stations to make a bigger profit.
I don't blame the guy that scammed me. I applaud him for making things look legit, I'm not easy to scam. Still that doesn't change the fact that ccp itself is feeding me false information in the first place, that I have no way to check easily. The only truly legitimate way to avoid this scam is pretty much don't buy anything you hope to sell for a profit. Every buy order out there could be fake.
More than anything I'm just disappointed that there is a game mechanic out there that's so flawed that it's of more use to scam than anything else. There's no downside, and no no risk in using it to scam, and it's CCP, not some idiot in chat that's feeding me the false info.
In all seriousness there's no way to justify the game mechanic implemented as it is. No margin buy order that doesn't have enough money in escrow to be filled should show up under buy orders. It forces players to make decisions based on false information, that is given to them by the game creator. If I get scammed by someone more power to them, but CCP is taking an active hand in these scams, like it or not, and that's just not right.
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Myra2007
Millstone Industries
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Posted - 2011.03.07 01:17:00 -
[15]
You have to research whats the actual value of the items you're buying. And no just looking at the buyorders in one region is not going to do it. Market pvp not a scam. Do your homework next time.
As for your ideas to solve the nonexistent problem: I think you didn't understand what the purpose of margin trading is. It's a valid trade tool outside of trapping market noobs like you. --
Originally by: Professor Slocombe
I will only buy tickets if the prize is your stuff and you leave Eve. Forever. You irritating self obsessed cretin.
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Salome Musashi
Caldari Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2011.03.07 03:05:00 -
[16]
God's in his Heaven, and the greedy and foolish in Jita are being seperated from their ISK. All's right with the world.
The market economy is all about transferring wealth from the ignorant to the clever. This topic has come up about once a week for the past 6 months. It hasn't helped. Anyway, there are multiple ways to spot this scam, and at least one way to turn it around and scam the scammer if his setup isn't 100% airtight, which is usually the case.
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Soldarius
Caldari Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.03.07 04:00:00 -
[17]
A fool and his isk are soon separated.
Key phrases/words: new player, 775mil.
Advice: Learn how things work before you use rl cash to buy in-game cash (isk/plex).
That being said, the margin trading skill is too easy to abuse. IMO, CCP should just get rid of it.
Originally by: CCP Shadow ...I cannot guarantee (my) sobriety or decency.
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Taedrin
Gallente The Green Cross Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2011.03.07 04:19:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Taedrin on 07/03/2011 04:21:17
Originally by: Daega Mordain Why should 40mil profit on 775 mil look too good to be true? It's about 5%. It's not like a fell for some stupid double your money scam.
THat's a 40 million ISK profit for buying something in station and then selling it immediately: all in the same station. Think to yourself real quick: Why would someone be selling the item on sell orders, when they could sell it to buy orders for an extra 40m ISK?
Also, why would someone set up a buy order costing them an extra 40m ISK when they could simply buy the item off of the sell orders and save themselves time, brokers fees and get their items for cheaper all the same?
And if for some reason the above 2 hints aren't enough: CHECK THE FREAKING MARKET HISTORY. These scams are generally done on items which have zero history, or are so incredibly cheap that a simple check on the history will note that the items are worthless.
All in all, you should NEVER buy an item unless you have a good idea on what that items actual intrinsic value is. If you don't know what that intrinsic value is, then you are exposing yourself to risk. |
Daega Mordain
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Posted - 2011.03.07 04:55:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Daega Mordain on 07/03/2011 04:56:16 Myra: I did research. Why should I expect the buy orders, sell orders, and more importantly the market history to be lying to me? Now I have to fly to 3 or four other regions and compare there too? It's not market pvp, pvp implies risk on both sides, I welcome it. It's more akin to concord opening fire on me for no reason. For the record I understand what margin trading is, and it's purpose. In real life as well as the game. That doesn't excuse it being poorly implemented.
Salome: Instead of talking trash, please enlighten, tell me how I should of spotted this and how I could of turned it. I've talked to the guy, there's literally like a 3 second window if that where I can abuse it if he does it right. But hey please share. That would actually be a productive post.
Soldarus: I didn't buy any time cards, I'm not rich, that's why it actually hurts. I earned the money TRADING and running missions. That's why it really sucks to see the mechanics turned on me. I was kinda counting on that money to pay for 2 accounts. Now I may have to let one lapse for a while or take out a lot of the money I have invested in the market to pay for it. If your a smart guy you can make money in these games playing the market and missions give more than enough start up cash.
Taedrin: And yet idiots do it all the time. I even cited an example where I made 20mil a few minutes before that. Did you even read the thread? I checked the market history.
It's also sad how all these threads have to break down to name calling? Seriously? I sent this char 50 mil from my main to get started messing with the market and running missions. I turned that into almost 2 billion in isk and assets in a month. If I hadn't posted about this scam, and made another thread about how I've done in a month as a newbie I'd be getting kudos. I didn't risk money I couldn't afford to lose, just like I wouldn't fly a ship I can't afford to lose.
It's not the isk that bothers me, it's not even the fact that I got scammed. It's the fact that ccp puts a lot of information in the hands of someone that understands how to use it, and now I have to question if even that info is valid. There's no anger here, it's disappointment in game I was becoming very happy with.
In all seriousness, there's no way to justify having buy orders show up that the creator can't fill to some portion.
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Marconus Orion
Global Criminal Countdown
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Posted - 2011.03.07 05:17:00 -
[20]
ITT: Turning a 5% profit is considered greedy. People should learn to use thier remote view other players wallet to see if they have the funds to cover the transaction, which is not possible.
In my opinion, the order should automatically cancel the second you don't have the funds to cover it. Starting with you most expensive buy order. That does not mean that you have to have funds to cover all of your buy orders, just the most expensive.
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Salome Musashi
Caldari Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2011.03.07 05:46:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Salome Musashi on 07/03/2011 05:48:50
Originally by: Daega Mordain Salome: Instead of talking trash, please enlighten, tell me how I should of spotted this and how I could of turned it. I've talked to the guy, there's literally like a 3 second window if that where I can abuse it if he does it right. But hey please share. That would actually be a productive post.
Heck no! I've made billions on this scam, and I plan to make billions more. I have no intention of giving away my trade secrets. Can I interest you in some officer tags while you're here?
P.S. I wasn't the one who scammed you, but based on some things you said, it sounds like the scammer was doing it wrong and is likely vulnerable to a counter-scam. What item did they get you on? Maybe I'll take him to the cleaners and get your ISK back.
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Taedrin
Gallente The Green Cross Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2011.03.07 06:17:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Taedrin on 07/03/2011 06:23:24
Originally by: Daega Mordain
Taedrin: And yet idiots do it all the time. I even cited an example where I made 20mil a few minutes before that. Did you even read the thread? I checked the market history.
I have to admit, I only skimmed your post. We have been getting posts like yours daily, talking about "the margin trading scam" for months now.
But, if you DID check the market history properly, then no foul right? You just sell it to the next order that comes along.
Of course, this presumes that you actually did ALL of your homework. Checking the market history means figuring out what an item normally sells for, and the volume that gets traded regularly. The important thing isn't to figure out that an item has price spiked before - those price spikes are generally caused by market manipulations which you do NOT want to be caught up in.
I have never seen one of these margin trading scams on anything other than items which an extremely poor market history. A quick glance at the market history is all that is needed to weed through these scams. ----------
Originally by: Dr Fighter "how do you know when youve had a repro accident"
Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
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Ludacrys
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Posted - 2011.03.07 06:54:00 -
[23]
If CCP made "Use marging trading" an option when placing a buy order and made that option unusable when using a minimum quantity option then this would be fixed. Obviously this will never be fixed because its CCP
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Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
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Posted - 2011.03.07 08:24:00 -
[24]
5/10 -
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Brakte
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Posted - 2011.03.07 13:32:00 -
[25]
My bet is that you assume that Scammers are low life filth born without a brain, therefore you underestimate them.
you got what was coming for you
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Self Preservation Society the 2nd Dead Terrorists
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Posted - 2011.03.07 14:13:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
Originally by: Darius III I was there in Jita the day this was originally introduced on C&P. I believe it should be fixed and will vote that way if ever I get a chance and get elected CSM VI
How exactly were you planning on fixing this?
By continuing to troll C&P and suicide gank - but that's just my guess. --Vel
Originally by: Blacksquirrel
This is EVE. PVE can happen anywhere at anytime. Be prepared.
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Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2011.03.07 14:20:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Daega Mordain Margin Trading Scam needs to be fixed.
sure it does. lemme just type your complaint in my imaginary typing machine so that I can direct it to the imaginary carebear appreciation department on CCP. |
swiftstick
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Posted - 2011.03.07 14:47:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Daega Mordain The actual scam is they sell the item for the inflated price, either in another station, or as a contract, and the the buy orders are no good, so I end up with an item worth a fraction of what all the in game information was telling me. I probably should of explained it better, but I severely edited a couple paragraph's before posting, not wanting to make it even more widespread.
Why am I to expect a buy order to be unrealistic when the market history is wrong and there are more buy orders up for the wrong price, than the right one? I expect people to lie to me, I don't expect the game too. Sure it's an elaborate scam, but it's different than any other scam in the CCP is an active partner in it. I don't trust other people without reason, I should be able to trust the information CCP provides to me.
If a buy order cannot be filled that buy order should come down. End of story. It shouldn't wait until someone tries to fill it. That's not realistic in any since. If that's beyond the programming capabilities to do reasonably then margin trading should be removed and skill points refunded until it can be implemented correctly.
i agree 100% not right to place buy orders and not have the isk it plays the market to much up and down plus for the simple reason to run a scam .. if you place a buy order it should have the isk held in escrow not part of it, doing so is a manipulation and in most country's you would go to jail ...
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Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2011.03.07 15:58:00 -
[29]
Originally by: swiftstick
Originally by: Daega Mordain The actual scam is they sell the item for the inflated price, either in another station, or as a contract, and the the buy orders are no good, so I end up with an item worth a fraction of what all the in game information was telling me. I probably should of explained it better, but I severely edited a couple paragraph's before posting, not wanting to make it even more widespread.
Why am I to expect a buy order to be unrealistic when the market history is wrong and there are more buy orders up for the wrong price, than the right one? I expect people to lie to me, I don't expect the game too. Sure it's an elaborate scam, but it's different than any other scam in the CCP is an active partner in it. I don't trust other people without reason, I should be able to trust the information CCP provides to me.
If a buy order cannot be filled that buy order should come down. End of story. It shouldn't wait until someone tries to fill it. That's not realistic in any since. If that's beyond the programming capabilities to do reasonably then margin trading should be removed and skill points refunded until it can be implemented correctly.
i agree 100% not right to place buy orders and not have the isk it plays the market to much up and down plus for the simple reason to run a scam .. if you place a buy order it should have the isk held in escrow not part of it, doing so is a manipulation and in most country's you would go to jail ...
first, learn the concept of margin trading. second, half of the stuff people do in EVE and get away with it, would be considered illegal in pretty much the entire planet. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Caldariftw123
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Posted - 2011.03.07 16:03:00 -
[30]
No different than if the guy just quickly cancelled the buy order soon as you accept the contract. No different at all. In both cases you were fooled into thinking there was a buy order you could fill immediately. How is this ANY different than seeing a buy order in jita for X @ Y price for Z, then finding it in RENS for cheaper, shipping it over and finding .. oops, someone else filled the order before you got there? It's no different, you are now left with an item you can't sell. Oops, sorry, that's the market for you.
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