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Shandir
Minmatar EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.03.07 16:03:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Shandir on 07/03/2011 16:03:38 This is exactly the kind of scam CCP indulges (and secretly loves) - it uses the game mechanics in a non-exploitative but clever way - all the information the buyer needs to not-be-scammed is right under their nose - and it only affects people who don't think it through.
The only modification I would make to the mechanics is that it is not possible to screw the scammer even if you know the trick. I would like to see some counter-scammer tactics and make it proper PvP. As is, most scammers can't really lose out. (Yes, it is possible to screw the scammer if they do it wrong, but the proper method is pretty well published)
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Small Steamed Bun
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Posted - 2011.03.07 16:45:00 -
[32]
As has been alluded to in this thread and many others: The whole point of margin trading is that you dont have all of the money to cover the order. Again this works irl because you can go into debt and are accountable for it. This same concept will clearly not carry over into this game as its so easily exploitable. So the real discussion here is whether to have margin trading at all in eve. I personally dont care either way.. it doesnt seem a particularly good fit for the reality situation in eve and i suspect it was added for a sense of "realism" that doesnt really carry over. But either way CCP decided to include it and im sure they are well aware of its potential. But again this is not a scam...at worst its market manipulation which seems to be encouraged by the game. |
Ingvar Angst
Amarr Omni Industrial Coalition
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Posted - 2011.03.07 18:44:00 -
[33]
There are two ways to fix this problem.
The first would be CCP would need to be convinced this is a real issue, then make some changes to the game to remove the problem, such as disabling buy orders the moment you don't have enough isk to cover them or removing minimums altogether.
Second would be to simply educate the masses.
I'm not optimistic on either option, to be honest...
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Acidictadpole
Royal Order of Security Specialists
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Posted - 2011.03.07 19:05:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Acidictadpole on 07/03/2011 19:06:08 This is a real-life scam also. I don't see why it should be fixed..
Search wikipedia for 'Glim Dropper Scam'..
Quote: The basic idea is that you take something worthless (in this case your game tickets, since their value disappeared as soon as neither party was gong to attend) and, usually with the help of the accomplice, apply a false price tag to it. In this case you accomplished that by playing both roles because she had not spoken to you on the phone previously. Then, you arrange to sell the item to the mark under the assumption that the item's value is fixed by the other outstanding offer for it. When it comes time for the mark to resell at a profit the offer miraculously vanishes.
~ Diabolico, Reddit.
Don't get scammed |
Enik3
High Flyers RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2011.03.07 19:50:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Caldariftw123 No different than if the guy just quickly cancelled the buy order soon as you accept the contract. No different at all.
This summarizes the issue perfectly. No one is ever obligated to buy anything.
The fact that you couldn't make 40M isk for 5 seconds of work should not be classified as a scam that needs to be fixed.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2011.03.07 20:09:00 -
[36]
Market buy orders can fail if the buyer does not have enough cash to cover the purchase.
^^ This is what you missed and the reason you got scammed.
Its not broken though, thats the whole point of the margin trading skill to enable a player to put up purchase orders for more isk than they actually have.
A legitimate use may be for a reprocessor.
A reprocessor puts up lots of big orders for junk and reprocesses them daily and sells the mins to keep his wallet in the black.
with margin trading skill he can put up more orders for more stuff than he would be able to without it.
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GreasyCarl Semah
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Posted - 2011.03.07 20:17:00 -
[37]
The fix for this is simple and it is just like real life.
If you put up an order and you can't pay for it then your wallet should go negative with a debt if the order is accepted. Then the game should start automatically charging you a crazy interest rate until you pay that debt off and get your wallet back to zero.
I'm sure the cry babies in this thread will think that is a horrible idea. Mainly because they like the idea of "margin trading" but only as far as it lets them rip off other players and this system would punish them for the slightest mistake in cancelling orders. You guys say you want to do financial PVP and this sounds like it would make for good stakes.
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Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2011.03.07 20:41:00 -
[38]
Originally by: GreasyCarl Semah The fix for this is simple and it is just like real life.
If you put up an order and you can't pay for it then your wallet should go negative with a debt if the order is accepted. Then the game should start automatically charging you a crazy interest rate until you pay that debt off and get your wallet back to zero.
I'm sure the cry babies in this thread will think that is a horrible idea. Mainly because they like the idea of "margin trading" but only as far as it lets them rip off other players and this system would punish them for the slightest mistake in cancelling orders. You guys say you want to do financial PVP and this sounds like it would make for good stakes.
it creates isk out of nothing, so no. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2011.03.07 21:28:00 -
[39]
Originally by: GreasyCarl Semah The fix for this is simple and it is just like real life.
If you put up an order and you can't pay for it then your wallet should go negative with a debt if the order is accepted. Then the game should start automatically charging you a crazy interest rate until you pay that debt off and get your wallet back to zero.
I'm sure the cry babies in this thread will think that is a horrible idea. Mainly because they like the idea of "margin trading" but only as far as it lets them rip off other players and this system would punish them for the slightest mistake in cancelling orders. You guys say you want to do financial PVP and this sounds like it would make for good stakes.
It's a horrible idea not just because of the need to retain the utility that the marging trading skill offers, but because it solves a minor issue in the trading system by severely breaking the same system and creating a huge exploit with isk printing out of nothing.
Not to mention, that negative wallet isn't anything like being in RL debt. Having a negative wallet in EVE pretty much prevents you from operating anything in the game, while being in debt just means you have to transfer money to another account as specified by the contract you made.
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z0de
The Bastards The Bastards.
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Posted - 2011.03.07 22:48:00 -
[40]
Edited by: z0de on 07/03/2011 22:48:26 If you fail to pay for your buy orders e.g. use this 'scam' you should lose sec status or your standings to the involved station should drop. á á
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Myra2007
Millstone Industries
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Posted - 2011.03.08 00:10:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Daega Mordain
Myra: I did research.
Ok, point taken. You didn't do enough though.
Originally by: Daega Mordain
Why should I expect the buy orders, sell orders, and more importantly the market history to be lying to me?
Ask yourself: Where do buyorders come from? They come from other players. Now would you always expect players to tell you the truth? If the answer is yes then you have yet to learn a lot about eve. If it is no then you clearly have no reason to expect buyorders to give you any useful information either.
The same goes for sell orders.
As for the market history: it is not lieing to you. The market history records at which prices items get sold and bought. It only shows actually completed transfers. So if it was showing something that made you think this deal would be legit the reason is probably that someone else fell for the trap before you thereby producing those records.
Your stance that those things should tell you "the truth" is a bit hard to understand. In a player driven market there is no absolute truth. All the information available is just that information - neither evil nor good. You need to interpret it and make the right conclusions from the data.
Originally by: Daega Mordain
Now I have to fly to 3 or four other regions and compare there too?
To be sure? Possibly. Though a little more experience and you could've easily seen it coming from miles away.
Originally by: Daega Mordain
It's not market pvp, pvp implies risk on both sides, I welcome it.
There is risk involved. For instance if no one is falling for the trap the orders will expire sooner or later which is a net loss due to broker fees and such.
Originally by: Daega Mordain
That doesn't excuse it being poorly implemented.
When you've played eve for a few years you will realize that CCP doesn't need excuses to implement something poorly and then never look at it again. That's their kind of real life market pvp. Though in this case you still have to support your case that it is a poor mechanic.
I've already given you a hint: margin trading has real applications in trading that have nothing to do with "scamming". Traders need to buy stocks below market value to sell for profit. This is done via buy orders. Having margin trading means you can put out more buyorders at the same time as your liquid isks would otherwise allow for. Killing this mechanic is a brutal nerf to legitimate traders. I can see why someone who has taken a loss like you is upset. That doesn't mean looking at the big picture isn't worth it imo.
For what it's worth I still hope you recover well from this loss. Maybe with a bit of distance you will be able to take this as a challenge. The market is challenging you and if you accept that and keep fighting it will make you a better eve player. Just my 2 cents. --
Originally by: Professor Slocombe
I will only buy tickets if the prize is your stuff and you leave Eve. Forever. You irritating self obsessed cretin.
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Mya ElleTerego
Amarr The Hull Miners Union Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2011.03.08 02:11:00 -
[42]
I vote, if you do this your wallet goes negative, after the first time it doesnt work, fills the order, and then cancels it. Problem solved, its not like you cant go negative already, just go to www.techmoon.botter.rmt.com Buy isk a few times and watch what happens to your wallet.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2011.03.08 02:42:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Daega Mordain People are lazy sometimes they just don't check the value of what they are selling.
and sometimes people are lazy and just don't check the value of what they are buying
market manipulation and misinformation are lovely things
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Daega Mordain
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Posted - 2011.03.08 04:38:00 -
[44]
Just a few comments, lot happen here in last 24 hours.
Brakte: I think assuming anyone is an idiot without proof pretty much makes you an idiot yourself. I'd be willing to bet money that there are smarter people playing this game than any other mmo out there, and by a significant amount at that. The thing that actually drew me to this game was the infamous graph of the Eve Learning Curve.
Caldariftw123 (and Enik): Your so wrong..canceling the order on there part implies a lot of risk. Not only could I be faster on the draw, but some random person could come along and just fill it.
Myra: I completely understand how market manipulations work. The market history isn't really a good tool for low volume items. The process of setting up this scam actually can make the market history look like it did in all likely hood. I hardly call the broker fee loss a risk, when these orders can stay up for months. That's absurd. That's like saying you should be able to fly around in a rifter and kill carriers solo.
Chainsaw: I agree, I've made millions on 'legit' market manipulations in other games. The games don't actually lie for me though.
I acknowledge margin trading has legit uses. I honestly think by their comments half the people defending it don't understand how this scam works and I'm not gonna explain it. You can arrange things how you have almost 0 isk in escrow and have market orders up for billions. There is really no way to justify that.
I agree with the people saying negative wallet isn't an answer. I really think just taking down orders that can't be filled by the money in escrow is the best one.
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Acidictadpole
Royal Order of Security Specialists
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Posted - 2011.03.08 14:36:00 -
[45]
Quote: I acknowledge margin trading has legit uses. I honestly think by their comments half the people defending it don't understand how this scam works and I'm not gonna explain it. You can arrange things how you have almost 0 isk in escrow and have market orders up for billions. There is really no way to justify that. I agree with the people saying negative wallet isn't an answer. I really think just taking down orders that can't be filled by the money in escrow is the best one.
The scam is artificially inflating a mark's perception on the value of an item. There are so many resources available to you to decide whether you're getting a good deal or not, you either used the wrong ones or didn't use enough.
I said it before, it's an awkward way of pulling off the scam, but it's "working as intended" as far as the skill goes, and altering how this scam operates on the market has the potential to destroy the game in other ways with margin trading being abused.
Don't get scammed |
Holdout
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Posted - 2011.03.08 17:25:00 -
[46]
Was it perhaps 14 pieces of Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster?
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Acidictadpole
Royal Order of Security Specialists
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Posted - 2011.03.08 17:58:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Holdout Was it perhaps 14 pieces of Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster?
He hasn't said,
But generally this scam is done with rare but somewhat useless items. If you're artificially inflating the price of buy orders...
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2011.03.08 22:16:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Acidictadpole
Originally by: Holdout Was it perhaps 14 pieces of Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster?
He hasn't said,
But generally this scam is done with rare but somewhat useless items. If you're artificially inflating the price of buy orders...
they were low-grade jackal gammas the last time I was in jita, useful item I'd say, but low volume/supply item.
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Katarlia Simov
Minmatar Cowboys From Hell
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Posted - 2011.03.08 23:48:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Katarlia Simov on 08/03/2011 23:49:50 The problem that I really see with this whole area is that you can't see who is issuing or accepting orders. Even if you could, alts make it impossible to see who is connected to who.
Now, in real life, if one guy offers to sell you something and buy the same something back for more, its got to be a scam. If he tries to make it look legit, then its fraud and he goes to jail.
Because eve has no rules about that, and no punishment (and indeed no risk) for fraud/scamming, its just up to us to deal with it. That's kinda what kills this whole aspect of eve for me, that there genuinely is no repercussion, and even if there were no way to prevent people using alts to avoid them.
It sucks, and I think that people who profit off this kinda stuff can go **** themselves. Considering how fast the market can move it is near impossible to get a genuine value for anything, and particularly for anything that normally people loot in ones and twos. No-one honest can make money off the markets.
It's always great to see the whole 'STFU NOOB' brigade out in force. Just so that I know, can someone tell me when you get told this scam happens, or is even possible ? Since there is no way to know aside from meta-gaming, y'all are just profiting from anyone who thinks they can turn a small profit buying and selling, which is not exactly an outrageous idea. Those people don't deserve to get **** on by much older, much wealthier players, and frankly you should be ashamed.
Oh and in (vain) hopes of precluding any trolling, no, I have never ever tried to use the markets at all to do anything other than buying ships and mods. I have never been scammed, and tbh have never even been in that situation. I just think you are pricks.
Yay for no risk market pvp! You are the equivalent of shooting ibis and saying how leet you are.
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Logical Chaos
Wrath of Fenris
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Posted - 2011.03.08 23:56:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Myra2007 There is risk involved. For instance if no one is falling for the trap the orders will expire sooner or later which is a net loss due to broker fees and such.[/quote
Learn to modify I guess? And its not like you wont find a ****** in a week of time to fill it...
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Eugenie Lefevre
Gallente The Intaki Ladies Deep Space Astrogation Auxiliary
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Posted - 2011.03.09 00:07:00 -
[51]
NO ~ "I've been called the Women's Auxiliary of the Brat Pack." |
Sentient Blade
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Posted - 2011.03.09 02:03:00 -
[52]
Several hundred people, myself included, tried getting CCP to fix this one before when it first came out. They declined.
To this day I still consider it an exploit to bypass the game mechanic which explicitly stops you from creating a buy order worth more than you can pay. CCP, it seems, does not agree.
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Patri Andari
Caldari Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
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Posted - 2011.03.09 02:07:00 -
[53]
The worst part of this thread is its location on this forum. I expect more stomach from C&P. There is no scam here only lemmings who do not understand the ins and outs of trade.
I have played this game for about 4 years. All that time this skill has been in game and many, including I have found ways to make its use advantageous. Now for some reason, some who have a poor understanding of game mechanics and trade decide to get rich quick and get burned and the sky is falling?
There is no need to fix this skill only a need to HTFU!
Patri
I'll Roshambo You For That Titan! |
Patri Andari
Caldari Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
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Posted - 2011.03.09 02:47:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Sentient Blade Several hundred people, myself included, tried getting CCP to fix this one before when it first came out. They declined.
To this day I still consider it an exploit to bypass the game mechanic which explicitly stops you from creating a buy order worth more than you can pay. CCP, it seems, does not agree.
When did you start playing this game?
When was this skill introduced?
Where is your post on these forums denouncing this skill?
Where are the posts of those other "several hundred"?
Liar!
This drum beat against the skill is recent at best as far as I can tell. It reaks of a butt hurt few who tried to profit from pure greed and got burned.
Learn to trade properly or go mine. No one promised you a risk free market. Caveat emptor !
Patri
I'll Roshambo You For That Titan! |
Magnus Witchspace
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Posted - 2011.03.09 02:54:00 -
[55]
This isn't a scam. In fact it's quite a realistic system. If any of you are familiar with Betfair, you get the same thing happening. You can present ridiculous odds on an event and occasionally some bunny who misread the screen takes it.
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Sentient Blade
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Posted - 2011.03.09 07:14:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Patri Andari Where is your post on these forums denouncing this skill?
Where are the posts of those other "several hundred"?
Liar!
The main posts on the topic are located at http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1401448/page/1
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