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Stephen Mctowelieee
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Posted - 2011.03.07 19:31:00 -
[1]
It seems like a good idea in theory. Don't have to worry about cap, high effective HPs. But it just doesn't work, and is frowned upon.
So my question is why?
No you're a towel! |
Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2011.03.07 19:47:00 -
[2]
if you think about passive shield regen, to get to significant dps tank you have to sacrifice dps. also, you would have to pick and choose fights. so, you are counting on hitting a single target and keep it engaged for a long time, which makes you vulnerable to reinforcements. and once reinforcements arrive, you'll be melting.
it can work as a bait, but most people prefer more offensive power, mobility or ewar for solo work. helps with gtfo.
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: Forum Bore 'Em : Foamy The Squirrel - [jedi handwave] "There is no spoon." |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
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Posted - 2011.03.07 20:08:00 -
[3]
Well... one of the problems is actually cap. Shield Power Relays cut your cap recharge by a good margin making recovery from pulsing your MWD or 100+ AU warps very, very long and painful.
The other problem is a simple matter of, "it won't save me outside of X scenario." 1v1 a passive tank will prove to be quite nice. However once you start dealing with numbers your passive recharge won't really count for much as the incoming damage will easily exceed it.
_______________________
"Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one."
~Unknown |
Jovan Geldon
Gallente
Lead Farmers
Kill It With Fire
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Posted - 2011.03.07 20:27:00 -
[4]
The question shouldn't be "Why not?", but rather "Why?".
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.07 20:33:00 -
[5]
Passive shields are great for long-term (relatively) low-damage confrontations.
PvP is short-term and high-damage.
So already there, you're in trouble.
In addition, you do have to worry about cap (unless you run completely capless, but then your tank is set up for even lower-damage confrontations), and you only have high effective HP if you toss out all the stuff that lets you actually kill your target.
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.03.07 20:51:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Stephen Mctowelieee
It seems like a good idea in theory. Don't have to worry about cap, high effective HPs. But it just doesn't work, and is frowned upon.
So my question is why?
Because passive-regen tanks don't have high EHP and they do have to worry about cap. They don't have high EHP because they use SPRs and purger rigs rather than a DC and extender rigs. They have to worry about cap because the SPRs nuke cap regen back to the stone age.
To add to this, they're far too slot-intensive, requiring lowslots full of SPRs rather than damage mods.
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Hermit Scion
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Posted - 2011.03.07 21:18:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Hermit Scion on 07/03/2011 21:20:16
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Stephen Mctowelieee
It seems like a good idea in theory. Don't have to worry about cap, high effective HPs. But it just doesn't work, and is frowned upon.
So my question is why?
Because passive-regen tanks don't have high EHP and they do have to worry about cap. They don't have high EHP because they use SPRs and purger rigs rather than a DC and extender rigs. They have to worry about cap because the SPRs nuke cap regen back to the stone age.
To add to this, they're far too slot-intensive, requiring lowslots full of SPRs rather than damage mods.
I know it's low DPS but how about this setup? Not too expensive and might be a nice bait. DPS is lowish for solo pwnage but if you drop sentries it can load a crapload of medium drones.
[EDIT] The T2 IF is kept offline - it gives a 1072 DPS tank against it's weak resist (kin). 1.3k if active. 25k shields would also give it a good buffer coupled with the decent shield regen.
[Rattlesnake, New Setup 1]
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Heat Dissipation Amplifier II
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Shield Recharger II
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile
Heavy Nosferatu II
Heavy Nosferatu II
Large Core Defence Field Purger I
Large Core Defence Field Purger I
Large Core Defence Field Purger I
Hobgoblin II x5
Garde II x5
Ogre II x5
Hammerhead II x5
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.07 21:28:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Hermit Scion
I know it's low DPS but how about this setup?
No tackle = completely harmless.
Lots of SPR = easy to drain = tank (and neuts) drop.
Tons of LSEs = big as a house = takes full damage from everything, possibly even anti-capship weapons.
àand as you mention, it has no damage output.
The problem is that 1k DPS regen is not really that much of a tank once you get a couple of ships against you. Your setup is annoying rather than dangerous.
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
Target Painter
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.03.07 22:08:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Hermit Scion
I know it's low DPS but how about this setup? Not too expensive and might be a nice bait.
Faction battleships are considered fairly expensive by most. And a Rattlesnake is fairly obvious as far as bait goes. At least with Drakes, it's entirely reasonable to think, "maybe he's just dumb and actually belt ratting in lowsec."
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2011.03.07 22:49:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Hermit Scion
[Rattlesnake, New Setup 1]
I put that in eft, switched to tech 2 rigs and added implants, and well 2x close range battleships should break the tank. it will take a while due to the large buffer but eventually it should go down. sure one side will probably call in reinforcements, but then well either it dies faster, or has no tackle and they get away.
at the same time it adds nothing to the gang/fleet
hell you could probably do the same (and more) with an insured carrier
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Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
DarkSide.
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Posted - 2011.03.07 22:53:00 -
[11]
Because passive tanking is gay and regen tanking is gay^2.
Hope this helps.
---[center]
Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
Herrring
Amarr
Caldari Internal Revenue Service
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Posted - 2011.03.08 00:00:00 -
[12]
Your passive regen tank shown on EFT is the tank you have when your shields are at its peak recharge point.
When its not at the peak recharge point, it obviously cannot sustain as much tank.
So for pvp, if someone knowledgeable enough with game mechanics simply overloads there guns when your shield is at peak recharge point, you basically have no buffer + no tank + with ****ty damage from all the sprs.
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Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2011.03.08 06:22:00 -
[13]
I like shield buffer tanks tbh. Frees up those lows for moar damage. ymmv
Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local
[19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
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Misanthra
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Posted - 2011.03.08 06:25:00 -
[14]
shield passive not working for pvp...fly caldari in fleet ops and you'll see why.
Drake...usual fit I ran for several alliance was pdu and bcu's and the always present DCU. Most common split wass 2 BCU, 1 pdu, 1 dcu. Drake without bcu...anemic dps. DCU an all in one resist...helps invul out since a pvp drake will be less tanky. Fit I kept seeing and ran as fleet fit was tp and sebo and mwd. Rest hards and lse (not your pve drake of 2 lse, 4 hards for stupid tank). Drake needs sebo in fleets. Script for faster locks to actually hit something (otherwise you have loooong lock time, then loooong missile travel to target the gunners are tearing apart). PDU helped keep power up for all the crap you ran.
Rokh....try fitting sprs in there with mag stabs, dcu and pdu's. rokh without mag stab pointless. Got lucky and got moderate damage from a sr fleet tagging me outside their optimals. Warped off, it recharges like ass to make the shields not so red (no shileld logi's....this was back in the armor tank or death days....rokhs left to fend for themsselve since all logi was armor). field purge rigs you might say...eft a typical lr fleet rokh with 425 II's (at AWU 5) and note you will still need ACR. down to 2 slots. 2 slots best left to fixing its anemic rail performance or running the caldari usual em and thermal rigs.
Also the technical reason is only a few ships passive recharge well. Mainly drake, nh and rattler. They have boosted stats for it. SPR and field purge these to your hearts content. Not all ships are drakes. Many have tried to "drake" fit a raven or scorpion and left disappointed. Worth noting raven and scorpion actually work better as armor tankers. 2 aliances I was in....armor tank was the fit. Scorpion for obivious reason to run all the jams. Raven though...was a wtf, but made some sense eventually.
Also for your pvp...why would you bait a rattler? Bait drake, rattler too obvious. More obvious than bait domi ona belt...all alonelol.
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Jude Lloyd
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Posted - 2011.03.08 06:30:00 -
[15]
It depends on what kind of PVP man, because passive shield works fine for quite a few things
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Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2011.03.08 06:34:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Jude Lloyd
It depends on what kind of PVP man, because passive shield works fine for quite a few things
I'm not entirely sure but I think the consensus in this thread is that shield regen tanks(aka passive) are teh fail for pvp and I can see why as they use up all your slots be them mid or low to get the regen. Hence my love of shield buffer tanks. Shield gank harb ftw.
Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local
[19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
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Lubomir Penev
Sausages of Truth
S I L E N T.
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Posted - 2011.03.08 08:05:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Hermit Scion
[EDIT] The T2 IF is kept offline - it gives a 1072 DPS tank against it's weak resist (kin). 1.3k if active. 25k shields would also give it a good buffer coupled with the decent shield regen.
You can't even tank a single properly fitted BS (you'll be melting most of your recharge curve and overloading will get people past your peak regen), and a faction BS will never attract only one... If you're dead set on baiting in a rattler get some tackle and massive EHP, you'll actually live longer, possibly long enough for help to come.
There are no macrominers in EVE |
Scuttle Bunny
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.03.08 09:58:00 -
[18]
2 reasons 1 of which is golden, the 2nd of which is untested..
but...
1. Buffer takes a knock if you stick purgers on instead of extenders
2. Active tank uses less slots, meaning you have more slots to play with
3.. (:O) what some1 up above said about "high intensity, short bursts is generally pvp" to paraphrase it
passive works for really stupidly pathetic dps rats, i mean missions and sanctums :P
bunz
on to the next comment -----------------------------------------------------------------> ....where's the down arrow?? --------------------->>>>> |
Stephen Mctowelieee
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Posted - 2011.03.08 17:18:00 -
[19]
This has helped me understand the game mechanics much more. Thank you all :)
It also answers another question I had: Why not resist tanking? I assume because once you get to a certain point, adding more resist modules adds so little. So resists work best in conjunction with buffer is the conclusion I am drawing. I suppose except on certain ships that already have high base resists. And I suppose it's also all situational...
No you're a towel! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.08 17:35:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Stephen Mctowelieee
It also answers another question I had: Why not resist tanking? I assume because once you get to a certain point, adding more resist modules adds so little. So resists work best in conjunction with buffer is the conclusion I am drawing. I suppose except on certain ships that already have high base resists. And I suppose it's also all situational...
"Resist tanking" is just buffer tanking without adding any raw HP.
You do it if you don't have fitting space for any HP-bonus modules (plates, extenders). However, these bonuses are stacking penalised and you quickly reach a point where you only get marginal returns.
Likewise, simply adding more HP quickly only gives you marginal returns because they add absolute values rather than percentages ù a module that doubles your HP if you fit one of them will only add 50% more if you add two; 33% more if you add a third etc.
Normally, you buffer tank by doing both: you add more HP and you make all of you HP count for more by improving your resists.
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.03.08 17:53:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Stephen Mctowelieee
This has helped me understand the game mechanics much more. Thank you all :)
It also answers another question I had: Why not resist tanking? I assume because once you get to a certain point, adding more resist modules adds so little. So resists work best in conjunction with buffer is the conclusion I am drawing. I suppose except on certain ships that already have high base resists. And I suppose it's also all situational...
If your objective is maximum EHP, then it's almost always (always?) achieved by a combination of resists and HP-extenders such as shield extenders, plates etc. Because EFT displays the total EHP of a ship, it's pretty easy to figure out the right combination.
However, sometimes your objective isn't max EHP. Fitting extenders bloats your sig, which increases damage received. If you're expecting to receive plenty of remote logistic support, then you may choose to maximise resists in the fashion that you describe, increasing the effectiveness of remote repair, but at the cost of some EHP. The danger here is that, with lower EHP, you may die before your logistics wake up and start repping you, for example.
Active tanks also have an element of resist tanking about them - it's much more sensible to fit a invulnerability field rather than a second XLSB, for example. 
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Shereza
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Posted - 2011.03.08 21:53:00 -
[22]
Depending on what modules you use and how many slots you devote to it shield tanking of any sort will limit the amount of EW and tackle you can fit. Passive shield tanking takes that drawback and adds to it causing you to take more damage from same-sized T2 damage ammo and larger opponents weapons. Several very useful passive tanking modules, and all rigs, boost signature radius which will mean faster lock times, an easier time scanning you down to begin with, and appearing "bigger" for guns and missiles to hit harder and/or more easily.
In comparison armor tanking just risks lowering your maximum gank potential and turning you into a brick. Most PvP'ers around here seem to prefer being bricks to neon signs with exotic dancers on them. 
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Songbird
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Posted - 2011.03.09 05:52:00 -
[23]
most t2 minmatar, angel, a lot of caldari( pvp tengus, drakes) they're all passive shield tank - in a gang you have too much DPS incoming to depend on local reppers, by the time your repper cycles you're dead.
It's not frowned upon - all nano gangs use shield , because armor slows em down.
I say passive shield , but it doesn't mean they depend on the shield recharge, they just have a ton of shield HP. And depend on scimis/basis to rep em.(or speed to escape damage)
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Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2011.03.09 05:55:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Songbird
I say passive shield , but it doesn't mean they depend on the shield recharge, they just have a ton of shield HP. And depend on scimis/basis to rep em.(or speed to escape damage)
Then say buffer instead. Passive shield is pretty much known as a regen tank.
Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local
[19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
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Songbird
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Posted - 2011.03.09 06:34:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Stephen Mctowelieee
It seems like a good idea in theory. Don't have to worry about cap, high effective HPs. But it just doesn't work, and is frowned upon.
So my question is why?
High effective HP sounds like buffer to me. Anyway buffer is passive - q was why not passive shield tanks - not "why not self recharging shield tanks".
And to answer the second question - doesn't matter if you recharge 200 shield a sec passively, or boost 200 shield a sec actively.
A fleet will hit you with 4-5k damage per sec(5-10 man fleet) and your puny 200 recharge won't last too long if you don't have some buffer.
A tengu with 200k effective hp would last 40 secs on it's own vs 5k dps( more if they don't hit him effectively due to small signature).
A tengu with 1000 tank (active or passive or w/e ) and 5k buffer(which due to resists is 40k or so effective HP) lasts what ? 10 secs...
So that's why.
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Angel Et'Death'e
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Posted - 2011.03.09 06:52:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Songbird
Originally by: Stephen Mctowelieee
It seems like a good idea in theory. Don't have to worry about cap, high effective HPs. But it just doesn't work, and is frowned upon.
So my question is why?
High effective HP sounds like buffer to me. Anyway buffer is passive - q was why not passive shield tanks - not "why not self recharging shield tanks".
And to answer the second question - doesn't matter if you recharge 200 shield a sec passively, or boost 200 shield a sec actively.
A fleet will hit you with 4-5k damage per sec(5-10 man fleet) and your puny 200 recharge won't last too long if you don't have some buffer.
A tengu with 200k effective hp would last 40 secs on it's own vs 5k dps( more if they don't hit him effectively due to small signature).
A tengu with 1000 tank (active or passive or w/e ) and 5k buffer(which due to resists is 40k or so effective HP) lasts what ? 10 secs...
So that's why.
You are grossly confused. A buffer tank relies on shield hp (discounting resists) whereas passive tank relies on recharge rate (also discounting resists)....totally different mechanics.
This is where people fall on their faces, when arguing the merits of either, as they do not understand the terminology.
Take armour tanking for example. You will here people talking about active and buffer tanks but you will never hear anyone talking about passive armour tanks as it is impossible for armour to "passively" regenerate.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.09 10:28:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Songbird
High effective HP sounds like buffer to me. Anyway buffer is passive - q was why not passive shield tanks - not "why not self recharging shield tanks".
Passive shield tanks ≡ self-recharging. That's the whole point of it.
Yes, you can also get some measure of PST:ing by applying a big honking buffer. Likewise, most implementations of PST adds some buffer to improve efficiency. But the buffer is not the thing that matters. what distinguishes the PST from other tank types is that what you aim for is a high regen rate ù it's the defining feature of the tank style.
The question was "why not passive shield tanks", which is the same question as "why not self-recharging tanks".
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
Millie Clode
Amarr
Insert Cool Name Here
|
Posted - 2011.03.09 10:46:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Millie Clode on 09/03/2011 10:48:01
Originally by: Hermit Scion
[Rattlesnake, New Setup 1]
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Heat Dissipation Amplifier II
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Shield Recharger II
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile
Heavy Nosferatu II
Heavy Nosferatu II
Large Core Defence Field Purger I
Large Core Defence Field Purger I
Large Core Defence Field Purger I
Hobgoblin II x5
Garde II x5
Ogre II x5
Hammerhead II x5
How about no?
A single blasterthron could break the peak recharge on that.
Also no prop mod means a blasterthron would be on your face in no time and then he would start laughing at your cruise launchers.
[Rattlesnake, Buffer]
Damage Control II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
100MN MicroWarpdrive II
Warp Disruptor II
Photon Scattering Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Siege Missile Launcher II, Guristas Juggernaut Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Guristas Juggernaut Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Guristas Juggernaut Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Guristas Juggernaut Torpedo
Heavy Energy Neutralizer II
Heavy Energy Neutralizer II
Large Core Defence Field Extender I
Large Core Defence Field Extender I
Large Core Defence Field Extender I
Garde II x5
Ogre II x5
Berserker II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5
^ that's a bit more how i'd do it.
EDIT: needz moar drones
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Who, me? |
Iron Eater
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Posted - 2011.03.10 11:01:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Stephen Mctowelieee
So my question is why?
The passive shield recharge rate is only the peak rate. Above and below peak the recharge rate is much lower. That is, when the incoming dps is higher than the peak recharge you die very quickly.
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