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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 4 post(s)
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.09 21:17:00 - [1] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: baltec1 They have their credit cards and other personal info that they are not going to be giving out to the public. Sorry but that is far too much evidence to just say "gotta be fake". You do sound like you are deperatly trying to cast some mist over this. Where did you read that EveNews24 have the credit card information, too? EveNews24 created some nice looking pictures of bills, but they are good with artwork at EveNews24. Not to mention the publicity it gives them ... EN24 accepting and partly publishing customer/private information obtained by hacking a company database is probably illegal, not that i think anyone with any kind of authority really cares about a company that sells funny money used in a computer game. On the other hand you can be sure that someone cares if they have accepted a database containing valid credit card information and publicly disclosed parts of the information, that is likely to get you in the kind of trouble where it's not to say anything without attorney present.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.09 21:58:00 - [2] Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow It sounds like you think CCP has the burden of proof as if they were going to prosecute someone in court. They don't need any evidence to simply deny a subscription and refund the paying account; they could do that on a whim to any player or group of players they choose for no more reason than doing it makes them giggle. You don't own your character or any property controlled by the character, nor do you have possession of those things; you have a limited license to digital stuff that that resides on their server, and they can withdraw that license at any time. Since they do need to keep some sort of appearance of fairness, they'll want to have good cause before dropping the ban hammer, but they don't need proof. CCP may just get enough attention to get them selfs in trouble, if they decide to ban a large number of players for RMT based on information obtained by someone commiting an illegal act. Before CCP does anything they should probably find out if it's even legal to act on the information they where given, there is a chance they them self are breaking some laws by using the information when it's obtained by stealing the database. If it's legal for them to use the database they should verify that data before closing any accounts, the accounts used to buy isk can have been deleted and recreated by another player, or accounts could have been sold. They would atleast need to prove that it really is the same account/owner now as it was when the RMT toke place.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.09 22:25:00 - [3] Originally by: Janos Saal Your first post in this thread was eight hours ago and you've posted on every subsequent page multiple times. It's blatantly obvious that you have something to hide if you care this much about discrediting this information. lol, i hope CCP puts you in charge of their RMT task force.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.09 22:49:00 - [4] Originally by: Mara Rinn One would hope that CCP would try to make sure that they're only banning people for sensible reasons. Otherwise word will get around "CCP banned me because my sister didn't put out" and they'd lose customers pretty darned quickly. Seems like someone people in this thread are reading the eula/tos like the devil reads the bible, it's very unlikely ccp is going to ban people who have not broken any rules. It's seem that the normal GM response to RTM discussions is the actions ranging from warning to permanent ban will be taken against players using that type of service.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.09 23:08:00 - [5] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Furb Killer Well maybe not defensive, more like scared, does that count too? It worries me. I would not want to see my account disappear, because of someone putting my name on a list or because all of a sudden the logs do show something. If it happens i'll have a 'Free Whitehound' site where people can donate money, don't worry you are not going to jail we'll beat them in court. :) What you are suggesting seem so far fetched it looks like pure trolling, but you are right under the right curcomstances someone innocent could be accused of RMT. It's just something you have to live with, just like we don't let irl criminals run around free because there is a tiny chance of innocent people going to jail.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.09 23:43:00 - [6] Originally by: Barakkus Originally by: Grey Stormshadow Perhaps this following fanfest will really be start for new eve era, where these kinds of elements start slowly vanishing from game instead of getting stronger. That will be seen. At least community seems to be ready to help out. Won't happen. There will always be the lazy fat-beards with tons of r/l $$ to blow on RMT. One guy that worked with me was completely and utterly all in favor of buying WoW gold and power leveling services. He got this other girl at work to start playing WoW and got her into RMT too. What's funny is he LOOKED the part of the basement dwelling, fat-beard, living at home with mommy type too. Typical gaming nerd, and there's millions of them. There's a reason RMT is a multi-billion dollar industry, and it won't go away...ever...period... I've been "forced" to buy gold in WOW lots of times, full time job and 12-20 hours end game raiding leaves no time for grinding all the stuff you needed for raiding. If WOW had a option like PLEX i would have used that, and i believe PLEX will take some of the RMT profit. PLEX will not be able to compete with the RMT isk price, which makes RMT the best option for people who are willing to spend large amounts of money, but it's probably also the large transactions that are the easiest to detect. I would be nice if the next news story gives some information on how the RMT looked before and after PLEX was added to the market as an normal item, it may give CCP some insight on where to focus their effort against RMT.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.09 23:50:00 - [7] Originally by: Joe Skellington If your job forces you to "RMT", than maybe a game like Super Mario Cart is more suited for you, not an MMO. I think that's just a f'ing cop out. Spare me your deep moral judgement, most games have some form of RMT. Eve has PLEX, WOW has TCG.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.10 01:23:00 - [8] Originally by: Barakkus I'm sorry, no one is forced to buy gold in WoW. I managed 15k gold in a month of harvesting 20 minutes a day while having coffee before getting in the shower for work. Like hell you did that in classic or tbc, and when you have to much money and to little time you do feel forced to either pay for currency or stop playing the game or atleast the part of the game you enjoy, which in the end it likely to make you stop playing the game. That is the main reason most games have some legit way of doing RMT, and it's also why the illegal 3. party RMT exists.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.10 01:50:00 - [9] Originally by: Barakkus It was during TBC actually. Silithus (I think is the name of the zone, the one with all the bugs underground) is good income if you take herbalism and mining. 1500g/hr using mining and herbalism farming level 60 content in tbc, you are clearly talking out your ass, please stop now no need to make yourself look like a bigger fool.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.10 02:05:00 - [10] Originally by: Barakkus Originally by: dexington Originally by: Barakkus It was during TBC actually. Silithus (I think is the name of the zone, the one with all the bugs underground) is good income if you take herbalism and mining. 1500g/hr using mining and herbalism farming level 60 content in tbc, you are clearly talking out your ass, please stop now no need to make yourself look like a bigger fool. Only fool here is you going on about having to spend money on gold lol. When WoTLK came out I was loaning money to my guild mates for mounts. You must have been on a ****ty server, Onyxia's economy treated me well. After your pathetic attempt at sounding like a pro wow gold farmer, which left you looking so very clueless, do you really think any thing you could say would have any effect? I'm sure your guild needed tons of gold for the new wotlk mounts :)
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.10 02:21:00 - [11] Originally by: Barakkus Wow, u mad. That's hilarious. And I have to reiterate, you're pathetic for buying gold. lol.. yeah i've never been so mad in all my life, your clever insults and transparent lies about your wow gold farming skills got me oh so mad. Keep posting the trivial insults and foolish comments about your pro wow skills, and i'll go into hulk smash nerd rage mode.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.10 04:16:00 - [12] Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer Wow what kind of loser trades real money for fake game money? The kind of loser that buys the plexs that enable the rest of us to play for free, they are nice people. Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer It's enough to pay to play and then go and spend more money for what, pixels? At the least it's probably where most of the tears come from when they get their $$ ships popped. I make like 40$ pr hour which i guess would buy around 1B isk, it would take +10 hours to make the isk in game. I can guarantee i would would shed alot less tears everytime i lost a 500-1000M ship if i only had spend 1 hour getting the isk. If money is not you biggest problem you really don't care if it cost 10 or 100$ a month to play the game.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.10 11:20:00 - [13] Originally by: Hoya en Marland Originally by: Jowen Datloran CCP can legally deny you access to their server for no reason at all. Repetead once again because some people still don't realize that everything you have on your account, including account itself, is property of CCP and therefore can be taken away from you in any time, with no explanation given. If CCP is breaking the law by acting on information obtained by hacking another company, then the eula is worthless. CCP may not be able to freely act on the information handed to them, when it's obtained by committing a crime. If CCP infact is breaking the law to closing accouns, based on the iskbank database, they can be forced by icelandic cout of law to reopen them. Anyone can write the icelandic data protection agency, which is under the justice department, and explain them the situation, if they find the matter suspicious they will investigate it and try the case under cout of law if they find any laws have been broken. If the customers of iskbank.com are not breaking any icelandic laws, the data protection agency is very liekly to rule that CCP can't lawfully use the iskbank database without the consent of iskbank and the iskbank customers.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.10 11:40:00 - [14] Originally by: Unej Originally by: dexington Originally by: Hoya en Marland Originally by: Jowen Datloran CCP can legally deny you access to their server for no reason at all. Repetead once again because some people still don't realize that everything you have on your account, including account itself, is property of CCP and therefore can be taken away from you in any time, with no explanation given. If CCP is breaking the law by acting on information obtained by hacking another company, then the eula is worthless. CCP may not be able to freely act on the information handed to them, when it's obtained by committing a crime. If CCP infact is breaking the law to closing accouns, based on the iskbank database, they can be forced by icelandic cout of law to reopen them. Anyone can write the icelandic data protection agency, which is under the justice department, and explain them the situation, if they find the matter suspicious they will investigate it and try the case under cout of law if they find any laws have been broken. If the customers of iskbank.com are not breaking any icelandic laws, the data protection agency is very liekly to rule that CCP can't lawfully use the iskbank database without the consent of iskbank and the iskbank customers. so how much isk did you buy? lol :) non, with my massive 5M sp i don't really have the need for buying isk. The data protection agency on iceland works the same way as in denmark and the rest of the eu, and they do see the protection of personal information as a serious matter. Most companies that engage in unlawfull activities which involves missuse of information lose the case when it's tryed, CCP would probably lose just from the principle that you are not allowed to steal data and treat it as an asset.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.10 11:45:00 - [15] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: dexington Originally by: Hoya en Marland Originally by: Jowen Datloran CCP can legally deny you access to their server for no reason at all. Repetead once again because some people still don't realize that everything you have on your account, including account itself, is property of CCP and therefore can be taken away from you in any time, with no explanation given. If CCP is breaking the law by acting on information obtained by hacking another company, Sorry, which law is this? EU law Directive 95/46/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 24 October 1995 on the protection of individuals with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data You can start here related diretives are mentioned in the text.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.10 11:55:00 - [16] Originally by: LHA Tarawa It is NOT illegal to do legal things with stolen data, if you took no part in the inital crime of stealing the data. If the iskbank costomers are not breaking any law they are protected by eu law, and it would not be legal for CCP use data given to iskbank without the consent of the comstomer. Under EU law it's illegal for two companies two share customer data without the customer knowing and agree to this.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.10 12:16:00 - [17] Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 10/03/2011 12:05:03 Originally by: dexington Originally by: LHA Tarawa It is NOT illegal to do legal things with stolen data, if you took no part in the inital crime of stealing the data. If the iskbank costomers are not breaking any law they are protected by eu law, and it would not be legal for CCP use data given to iskbank without the consent of the comstomer. Under EU law it's illegal for two companies two share customer data without the customer knowing and agree to this. Actually, under EU law ISKBank are legally responsible for safeguarding their customer data. I'm reasonably sure that since they got hacked and non-authorised people had access to the data, then it could be argued that they have failed in that repsonsibility and could be sued. That was tryed in denmark 2-3 years ago when a social site was hacked a username, email and passwords was posted publicly on the internet, they site was cleared of any wrong doing because they had taken required steps to protect the users data. The main point in that case seemed to be that the passwords had been protected, but hacker had been able to discover many of the password by brute force. Which the sites could'nt be blamed for this because the password strength was decided by the user himself.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.10 13:49:00 - [18] Originally by: Ingvar Angst If this list serves as a template for them to investigate and find people messing with their data in ways they don't want, so be it. Normally you would not be allowed to steal a database as say it servers as an template for whatever, all kinds of rules and laws regarding insider trading and missuse of information servers to protect private and corporate data against people trying to do this. You don't seem to understand that someone broke into computer system and stole the database. Just because the database contain information on people buying isk and it would be in the best interest of the eve community does'nt not mean CCP can sit aside all rules and laws and freely use the data. You are not allowed to break the rules just because it's in your owne best interest.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.10 14:10:00 - [19] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: dexington You don't seem to understand that someone broke into computer system and stole the database. Just because the database contain information on people buying isk and it would be in the best interest of the eve community does'nt not mean CCP can sit aside all rules and laws and freely use the data. You are not allowed to break the rules just because it's in your owne best interest. And what you don't seem to understand is that they don't have to break any rules to act on this data. Note the word: "act", not "use". Correct, they are free to start and investigation into RMT. What they are not allowed to do, and what most are nerd raging about wanting them to do, is just punish everyone on the list.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.10 14:29:00 - [20] Originally by: Ozmodan Which universe are you living in? The nice thing is that CCP can look at the DB and verify the information, even those deleting the characters can't get away it is all logged to an account. Once the information is verified expect for the hammer to fall. If you are on this list you are in deep doo doo. That may just be the problem, if it was so easy for CCP to detect RMT using their owne database why have they not acted sooner, why would they even need the iskbank database? One reason could be it's not easy for them to find the data in their system. I'm more inclined to believe they don't care all that much if people buy isk, they just want people to buy their isk, so they are mostly looking for the people botting, which are the people not on that list.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.10 14:39:00 - [21] Originally by: knobber Jobbler ccp can do what ever they want. whether the eula is broken or not ccp don't have to provide an excuse to terminate an account. the eula is just there as a legal document to tell you this, as well as terms of service. they could ban every one on that list without any comeback from anyone nor do they have to justify it to anyone. ccp could ban and delete both of our accounts right now without reason, notice or communicating this to us. they could if they chose take any or all of any accounts isk, items or change or delete and part of a character without warning or justification. these eulas are standard fair in MMO's. They just can't do it based on a database they have no legal right to use, if it's illegal for them to be in possession of iskbank database which was obtained by commiting a crime, they may be commiting a crime by using it.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.10 16:33:00 - [22] Edited by: dexington on 10/03/2011 16:33:43 Originally by: LHA Tarawa Once someone you are in no way affiliated with, has hacked a computer, stolen information, and posted it to a public forum, you may use this now publically available information, as long as you are not breaking some other law, like copyright or national security or banking fraud.... The database contain personal information given to iskbank by it's customers, you can just claim it as public available information when you are in possession of them only because someone hacked the computer system and send you a copy.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.10 16:49:00 - [23] Originally by: LHA Tarawa Right. Once it is public information, it is public information. iskbank can go after the hacker. iskbank can go after whomever posted it to a public forum. However, once it is public, it is public, free to all to use for any non-otherwise illegal activity. That's the law. The database is the property of iskbank, it's clearly not part of the public domain.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.10 16:57:00 - [24] Originally by: Cutter Isaacson Read. this. slowly. The list has been published on a public website, that means it is now in the public domain. That means it can be used by anybody. Do. you. understand. yet? That is the same as saying you can publish eg. music in mp3 form on a public site and then it's no longer anyones property and now part of the public domain, unless you live in china things don't work that way.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.10 17:34:00 - [25] Originally by: Malcanis IskBank have released a public statement asserting that the database is wholly fictitious. It would be difficult for them to also claim that they owned copyright (an array of information cant be copyrighted, btw, did you know that?) or that the use of it in any way compromised them or their customers. Whatever other things CCP have to fear, legal action by IskBank is now not amongst them. PS how much did you buy? De facto, databases when defended have been covered by copyright law. If the iskbank database is protected by eu law, it's covered by copyright law no matter what the content is.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.10 18:28:00 - [26] Originally by: Burnharder I very much doubt a database used by someone engaged in criminal activity is covered by copyright law and as it's a database of online virtual characters, the Data Protection act doesn't come into play. There are various whistle-blower laws that take precedence in any case. And it IS criminal activity because I very much doubt the business in question charges VAT or pays state individual or business taxes on earnings. The eula gives CCP the right to close accounts the make use of RMT, but that does not make anyone buying isk a criminal and their personal information would still be protected by normal laws. The company not paying taxes would not give CCP any special rights to their customer database.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.10 18:39:00 - [27] Originally by: Grindkore Perhaps I just don't take this "GAME" seriously, don't get me wrong I love EVE. But why would you spend that kind of money even if you are wealthy on intangible and worthless game currency? It's their money, their account and their choice...
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.10 19:41:00 - [28] Originally by: Barakkus Nice selective reading...Read the section titled: "PROPRIETARY RIGHTS" You have no interest in the value of your time spent playing the Game, for example, by the building up of the experience level of your character and the items your character accumulates during your time playing the Game. Your Account, and all attributes of your Account, including all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and all objects, currency and items acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the sole and exclusive property of CCP, including any and all copyrights and intellectual property rights in or to any and all of the same, all of which are hereby expressly reserved.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.10 19:47:00 - [29] Originally by: Pesky LaRue Originally by: dexington Originally by: Malcanis IskBank have released a public statement asserting that the database is wholly fictitious. It would be difficult for them to also claim that they owned copyright (an array of information cant be copyrighted, btw, did you know that?) or that the use of it in any way compromised them or their customers. Whatever other things CCP have to fear, legal action by IskBank is now not amongst them. PS how much did you buy? De facto, databases when defended have been covered by copyright law. If the iskbank database is protected by eu law, it's covered by copyright law no matter what the content is. can you give us an example of this in action? The Copyright and Rights in Databases Regulations 1997
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.11 13:16:00 - [30] Originally by: Aeronwen Carys Originally by: GizzyBoy if ccp droppped plex price, rmt would just .1 isk war them, and WOW, just WOW, internet space ships are serious business, The fact that people STILL don't get this astounds me. CCP DO NOT DECIDE THE ISK VALUE OF A PLEX. Read that bit reaaaalllllly slowly for god sake, and maybe it will sink in. When CCP controls the $ value of a plex they also do have some control of the isk value, eg. if they changed the price to 5$ the isk value would also be lower. But with plex being closely linked to subscription fees they can't really change the price. The more money you are willing to spend the more tempting it's going to be to buy it from an illegal source, where the isk/dollar price is lower and where you can get better offers the more you spend.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.11 13:22:00 - [31] Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Originally by: GizzyBoy if ccp droppped plex price, rmt would just .1 isk war them, because CCP has no way whatsoever to create buy or sell orders for PLEX, amirite? If CCP started making lower priced plex sell orders, would that not just tempt more people to use RMT? The plex you buy from CCP would be worth less, and the isk you buy from illegal RMT sites would give you cheaper game time then CCP offers.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.11 14:01:00 - [32] Originally by: knobber Jobbler isn't it the job of a news source to tell both sides of a story? that is how credible news services work isn't it? or are you saying fox news would be a good example of a credible news outlet? Objectivity, impartiality, fairness are parts of ethics and standards of journalism, but it does seem a little dodgy when the person telling then story in some way is financially involved. It's a lot harder to judge the credibility when you can't be 100% sure about the motive.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.11 15:52:00 - [33] Edited by: dexington on 11/03/2011 15:55:41 Originally by: Aeronwen Carys There IS no dollar value (or any other real word currency) value to a PLEX. A PLEX is created from a GTC which a player can either use to add gametime to his/her account, or convert into 2 PLEX for sale INGAME. CCP has zero control over PLEX prices, they are entirely set by the players. How can you say that plex has no real world value, when you at the same time say they cost around 17.50$ to buy or half a GTC? It's a one way transaction, but you are still able to use the plex to claim 20$ worth of game time. If the in-game market value of the plex is eg. 350M, it's pretty easy to see that the isk/dollar conversion using plex is somewhere around 20M pr dollar using two plex from a GTC.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.11 17:35:00 - [34] Originally by: Zhim'Fufu Hrmmm, this is interesting. So far the rage seems to be directed at people who spend large amounts of cash to get isk so they can simply log in and do as they wish which infuriates the 'legit' players who have to grind for their isk and feel like they can't compete against the people who buy isk. Evenews24 is doing all it can to flame that rage it seems. I have been thinking the same thing, sure players buying isk is part of the problem, but the people supplying the isk and the people running the RMT sites is a much bigger problem. Some of the people that have been buying crazy amounts of isk do deserve to get banned, but the rest that bought minor amounts of isk seem to get alot of focus compaired to the tiny part of the problem they really are. Riverini have made posts saying he is thinking about writing "how-to bot" stories on evenews24, if CCP does not disclose information on their fight against RMT and bots. While his intentions may be good, trying to force CCP to disclose information may just end up being better for the RMT industry then the eve community. Evenews24 seem to believe that they have given CCP the magic weapons against RMT, when it at best is nothing more then a list of players CCP can give bans or warnings as they see fit. No matter if CCP bans everyone on that list, the bots are still running and once all quiet againg it's just back to business for the people selling isk. The fact the evenews24 released the list the way they did, probably only made it easier for the botters to start moving their assets, maybe even before CCP had time to decide how they where going to handle the situation. It would be funny if Riverini have been so eager to expose the list, it's likely he did'nt want to pass up the opportunity for evenews24 to get it's 5 seconds of fame, that all it results in a couple of bans and alot of warnings, while most of the people supplying and running iskbank just starts a new site and continue their business.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.11 19:42:00 - [35] Originally by: Mister Grumpy Is this plain enough for everyone to understand? yes, but it's unclear if your oppinoion really matters...
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.11 21:02:00 - [36] Originally by: Zhim'Fufu Thats a good point but you don't get very much more isk from the rmters than you do from converting a gtc unless you buy in bulk. So about the only way to really make that difference stand out is to drop some major money on it to get the mass purchase effect. For the vast majority of buyers on that list they bought less than $100 in isk so that would hardly convey any tangable benefit over plex isk. You get around twice the amount when buying from RMT sites, compared to using plex.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.11 21:48:00 - [37] Originally by: Chuck Sands The best thing for the game would be to kick out the stinking cheats once and for all. There is maybe 100 names on that list that risk geting banned. 2800 of the 3600 spend 100$ or less would be a suprise if they got more then a warning, and only 120 spend 500$ or more if any they are probably the only once that have anything to fear.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.11 22:22:00 - [38] Originally by: Burnharder If that happens it'll just be you and I left on the server Dex. 1v1? nah... with all the bots gone i'll starting mining and take over the RMT, wanna buy some isk?
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.12 09:00:00 - [39] Originally by: Nina Mercedez Presumably this was posted to contadict my post. However, we're not in Albaniia, Serbia, or Bosnia, etc. Someone used the "dollar" symbol. So how about using the symbols common to the place that uses the "dollar" symbol primarily? Unless Serbia has suddenly adopted the American currency as its norm. Which it might have, cos who the **** is looking for a Dinar these days. Lets not change common localizations, just because you have a hard time understanding them.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.12 12:51:00 - [40] Originally by: Avon My position is that those people who do not wish to abide by the rules should be excluded from participating in the game. That's a very black and white way to look at it, if you get a friend to log on your account to do a simple task like adding a skill to the queue, then you are breaking the rules. Trolling the forums is breaking the rules, there are lots of ways people are breaking the rules everyday. Saying that someone that used 10$ to buy isk needs to be banned is just stupid, it has not been the policy of CCP to do this, can't see why they should changed the rule just because someone hacked a RMT site and leaked the customer database.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.12 13:23:00 - [41] Originally by: Othran Originally by: Whitehound The mob assume they did it all on purpose and for evil motives ... Hard to work out how you can do it by accident Most knew what they where doing and that it was against the eula, but you can't rule out that some new players didn't realize what they were doing before it was to late. You are allowed to buy GTC from 3. party websites but you are not allowed to buy plex, the business design where some sites are allowed to "sell isk" and others are not, does open a trap for people who don't know the difference.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.12 14:15:00 - [42] Originally by: Othran Everyone KNOWS that if you buy in-game items from out of game sources then you are cheating. ISK IS an in-game item, as is PLEX. You assume a lot to prove your point, the eula allows for parents to establish accounts for minors. You can't always expect chrildren in non english speaking countries to fully understand the eula, which is one of the reasons you need an adult guardian to establish the account. You also can't expect a person why never played eve or have no interest in the game, to understand the difference between GTC and plex. It's an unlikely situation, but it's likely enough that minors play the game to CCP adding a paragraph about it in the eula.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.12 14:33:00 - [43] Originally by: Othran Originally by: dexington Edited by: dexington on 12/03/2011 14:21:07 Originally by: Othran Everyone KNOWS that if you buy in-game items from out of game sources then you are cheating. ISK IS an in-game item, as is PLEX. You assume a lot to prove your point, the eula allows for parents to establish accounts for minors. You can't always expect chrildren in non english speaking countries to fully understand the eula, which is one of the reasons you need an adult guardian to establish the account. You also can't expect a person who never played eve or have no interest in the game, to understand the difference between GTC and plex. It's an unlikely situation, but it's likely enough that minors play the game for CCP to add a paragraph about it in the eula. See I think you're trolling now. First you say you can't expect people to understand the EULA then you want a new paragraph in it. GTFO. That's not what i said, i said that you can't always expect the person who understand the eula to also understand the difference between GTC and plex.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.12 14:39:00 - [44] Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson Not understanding the rules is an ok excuse? I'm gonna try that next time I get pulled over for something I'm not 100% legaly sure of. COOL! I never said it was a excuse, i'm just saying that you can't assume that everyone deliberately broke the eula. The gut buying the titan knows what he is doing, but it's not impossible that someone just did'nt understand the difference between GTC and plex and ended you spending 10$ a RMT site.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.12 14:43:00 - [45] Originally by: Othran Originally by: dexington That's not what i said, i said that you can't always expect the person who understand the eula to also understand the difference between GTC and plex. You can expect them to know that a GTC is not an in-game item. Enough excuses in this thread TBH. You serious believe that if a child ask his parents to buy a plex he can get some isk, that the parents just knows the difference between GTC and plex, and the one is a in-game item and one is not.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.12 15:06:00 - [46] Originally by: Othran Originally by: dexington Originally by: Othran Originally by: dexington That's not what i said, i said that you can't always expect the person who understand the eula to also understand the difference between GTC and plex. You can expect them to know that a GTC is not an in-game item. Enough excuses in this thread TBH. You serious believe that if a child ask his parents to buy a plex he can get some isk, that the parents just knows the difference between GTC and plex, and the one is a in-game item and one is not. I think you'll find that if you allow a child to play on YOUR account, for you cannot legally open an account unless you are 18 years of age, then its entirely YOUR responsibility to ensure their behaviour conforms with the EULA. Just like any other online game which requires payment. Now really GTFO. You clearly keep avoiding your originale statement, that all eula violations being deliberate. I'm not saying they are not accountable for their actions, just that you are wrong when you assume everyone deliberately did it to save a few dollars. Seeing how you deliberately avoid the subject, and use every chance you get to steer the discussion in another direction i take it you know you are wrong but you are just not man enough to admit it. Now GTFO or something....
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.12 18:36:00 - [47] Edited by: dexington on 12/03/2011 18:37:04 Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson TBH if CCP did take a hard line with ppl buying off RMT sites I bet the problem would halve in weeks! It's very hard to say what effect it would have, but it would probably only be temporary. It would not have the same effect on new players, and with time it's likely that things would just return how it was. Besides from a business point of view the isk buyers are the ideal subscriber, aslong as they just buy their isk using plex. Most of the poeple on that list are probably flaged as isk buyers now, the ones that CCP deside not to ban are more or less forced to buy all furture isk using plex. That does somewhat make them a cash cow when you know they are enclined to buy isk, and are forced to use plex.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.14 05:26:00 - [48] Originally by: Infinity Ziona 1. Loss of income 2. Theft of CCPs digital property 3. Loss of reputation Which begs the question, why isn't CCP suing iskbank? Not many cases have been won if the only wrong doing was breaking the eula, and i don't think any of the points you make hold up in court unless they are found guilty in breaking the eula.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.14 08:13:00 - [49] Originally by: Katarlia Simov It depends on local law of course, however, I think I'm right in saying that RMTing is a civil matter, and would probably have to be perused under copyright laws. You can ONLY buy isk from CCP, and while you own it (in the sense that you can use it for whatever) you do not have the right to sell it on for RL money. Functionally, it bears the most resemblance to selling music/movies that you don't own the rights to. When you buy (for example) tracks off iTunes, you don't then have the right to sell them. RMTers didn't download illegally (or 'steal' as copyright troll say) it as dvd pirates do but still CCP alone has the right to sell it. Not all countries have laws like the DMCA, which make it alot harder to win cases like this in europe and almost impossible in most other parts of the world. It's the eula that says you are not allowed to sell isk and items, i don't think you are doing any copyright violation by selling isk. If all you have to back up your claim of wrong doing is the eula, it's not always easy to win a case in court. The eula gives the company the legal right to control accounts, but it's not all that strong when tested in court of law. Im sure that if there was a good chance af winning the case, more companies would be suing RMT sites and using the victories as scare tactics.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.14 14:24:00 - [50] Originally by: Rodj Blake Botting deforms the economy by increasing the money-supply. This in turn makes prices higher, meaning that everyone has to spend more effort acquiring goods. I believed that isk farmers would make a higher then normal supply of mining materials, and would'nt lower ore prices just mean lower prices on most manufactured goods?
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.14 15:01:00 - [51] Originally by: ed jeni Say you want a Raven, for example. Last year, they cost 60mil, but this year an identical ship costs 100mil. If prices of most other goods have also risen, then you are probably dealing with inflationùtoo much ISK chasing too few goods. Prices have inflated and your 60mil buys less than it did. You must earn more just to stay even. I looked at the QEN and the trend is that ship prices are decreasing, i did'nt see prices on the raven but if it's increasing it's the exception not the rule.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.14 15:56:00 - [52] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Then those found guilty of $50 and below, receive 1-2 weeks bans (plus purchased money confiscation) so that they learn. Those who spent above $50 and < $100 should get 1 month ban (plus purchased money confiscation x 2). Those above $100 should be permabanned and that's it. i guess you mean isk confiscation, don't think ccp is allowed to touch customer money even if they broke the eula.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.14 18:39:00 - [53] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Avon Nope, all they need to do is get you to click a button which states that you accept the rules, which you did. If you don't like them, don't agree to them, don't play. Nonsense. You make it sound like CCP is tricking people into accepting their EULA. It may not be tricking people, but a common eula problem is that you often pay for the product before you accept the agreement.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.14 18:53:00 - [54] Originally by: Grey Stormshadow After reading the iskbank guys interview from evenews and comparing his statements to certain inviduals statements, could easily make hilarious conclusions that they are the same guy or at least running the same business ;) ...thank god I'm not running the ccp's "boot to the head"-division which handles the ban distribution :) As i read the TOS of the forums, it has nothing to do with the eve eula, you forum and eve account are two seperat things so you can't get banned from eve for trolling the forums.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.14 19:25:00 - [55] @Whitehound Is what you are saying that it's a huge effort to cross check the a list of names and dates, against the eve player database for matching transactions?. I'm guessing CCP has a code monkey hidden away somewhere that can solve that task in a few hours.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.14 19:28:00 - [56] Originally by: baltec1 Reasons on why sending CCP a fake list is a bad idea. 1. CCP will check and will know if you just sent a fake list 2. The person who sent the fake list would at best get a warning and at worst get a ban. 3. ANY credibility said player had before will forever be gone. You are kinda stupid if you send a fake list, and give them you real name.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.14 20:41:00 - [57] Edited by: dexington on 14/03/2011 20:41:45 Originally by: Whitehound And then you are going to complain about the lack of content, server lag and what not, because the "code monkey" had to go through a player provided list of accusations instead of working on the game. People are always going to complain about something, you can't please everyone, i'm sure CCP is going to do what is in their best interest. Originally by: Whitehound There is no way you can proof that any of the Dollar sums listed on EN24 actually existed and therefore do you have no proof of a real money transfer. So all CCP will see is ISKs transactions that happen every day, but no proof of real money. Don't you mean there is no way to prove to YOU that money was involved, this rest of is willing to take CCP words for their data and the data of the list match and that is all the prove that is needed. Originally by: Whitehound All CCP can do and is doing is to find bots and reverse all ISKs transactions that were generated by the bots. They still cannot prove that real money was used, but they can prove that bots are running, which is also against the EULA, and they can remove all ISKs generated by them. They do need to prove anything else them that you have received isk obtained by illegal means, that's how it works in most/all mmo's. How do you think people got banned before the list was released.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.15 09:16:00 - [58] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Obsidian Hawk This could be post 1000 if the forum mods delete the troll posts. I think we could lose half of this threadnought just by removing our RMT defenders bitter postings. We could lose the last half of the thread if we removed the bitter requests for bans against all isk buyers, at this point it's just trolls trolling trolls with whitehound as president.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.15 19:29:00 - [59] Edited by: dexington on 15/03/2011 19:29:44 I'm must waiting for Whitehound to announce that in fact everyone on the list is innocent, and if you are not on the list you deserve to be banned.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.15 19:46:00 - [60] Originally by: Whitehound Some amount of botting and RMT is acceptable to me. Too much is not good and too much banning is not good either. lol, that has to be the most unintelligent/clueless comment posted in this thread.

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