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cosmoray
Cosmoray Holdings Corp
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Posted - 2011.03.19 03:38:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Thoraemond
Originally by: cosmoray
Originally by: RAW23 Any response to the rumours about you getting a bunch of accounts with most of your assets on them banned for connection to RMT laundering?
I can state categorically that I never RMT'd any of my assets or ISK
Originally by: cosmoray I can confirm that I only have 1 account left. The cosmoray account.
Assuming this is true, is that because the other accounts were banned? Or are you implying that you sold accounts via RMT, though not assets or ISK?
I have never sold accounts either.
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Mighty Dread
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.03.19 06:33:00 -
[62]
Well...When the game dynamics favors Evil...
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Kaaii
Caldari KaaiiNet Holding Executor Corp KAAII-NET
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Posted - 2011.03.19 09:33:00 -
[63]
Originally by: cosmoray I can confirm that I only have 1 account left. The Cosmoray account.
Because your reputation is stellar?
As for the topic, its just easier to be bad than good.
Some folks choose the easier path.
According to Oveur, existing LSAA's already anchored will stay there. kieron Director of Community Relations,
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Melbatoast Fondu
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Posted - 2011.03.19 09:43:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Kaaii
As for the topic, its just easier to be bad than good.
Some folks choose the easier path.
You look pretty easy. R U bad?
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moneykeeper
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Posted - 2011.03.19 10:55:00 -
[65]
There is no such things as 'good' and 'evil'. There are only actions and consequences. Can you show me a pound of evil? No, what most people mistake for 'good' is conditioning recieved by the society they grow up in.
The religious, socialists and other such do-gooders often lay claim to being in touch with some kind of cosmic, univeral morality. No such thing exists. People comply with rules only through fear or conditioning.
In Eve we get to come out from behind the mask society forces us to wear and are free to persue our own interests. This is a good thing for everyone except for squealing, weak minded fools.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2011.03.19 14:43:00 -
[66]
Originally by: moneykeeper People comply with rules only through fear or conditioning.
In Eve we get to come out from behind the mask society forces us to wear and are free to persue our own interests. This is a good thing for everyone except for squealing, weak minded fools.
Hasn't it occurred to you that certain rules might be mutually beneficial and followed for reasons of enlightened self-interest? Free riders or scammers are not some type of gloriously independent anarchic force - they are dependent and parasitic on the structures created by those who mutually consent to the rules.
This is not to imply that the rules have anything to do with good and evil. But the way people treat other people has a great deal to do with their character (which is the etymological root of the term 'ethics' but not the term 'morality').
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Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island
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Posted - 2011.03.19 17:13:00 -
[67]
According to the other thread, I am a sociopathic maniac, therefore I have no option other than to say " yes, it is. "
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Ramma Lamma DingDong
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Posted - 2011.03.19 17:35:00 -
[68]
Originally by: moneykeeper There is no such things as 'good' and 'evil'. There are only actions and consequences. Can you show me a pound of evil? No, what most people mistake for 'good' is conditioning recieved by the society they grow up in.
The religious, socialists and other such do-gooders often lay claim to being in touch with some kind of cosmic, univeral morality. No such thing exists. People comply with rules only through fear or conditioning.
In Eve we get to come out from behind the mask society forces us to wear and are free to persue our own interests. This is a good thing for everyone except for squealing, weak minded fools.
This is incorrect on so many levels and is a common rationalization used by sociopaths to rectify self-loathing resulting from their lack of higher level mental functions such as empathy. Simply put, they don't possess it so it must not exist. People that do possess it must be religious zealots or it has been forced into them because they are weak.
The truth is almost the opposite. Empathetic reactions occur in children as young as 9 months old. They are natural and necessary in a very Darwinian manner. They are also observed in lesser mammals and even in other animals (birds, octopi.) One could argue that society, religion, etc. is in fact, removing this natural reaction and creating sociopaths and it is they that are the "weak minded fools."
That's what I'd say if I gave a ****.
What I really mean is. It's like any other game, it's just way more pronounced in Eve. Internet nerds like to think they are bad asses so they roleplay pirates "YARG!" despots, and just love playing the bad guys. I mean it's all testosterone soaked chest thumping and at the end of the day, good fun.
Be a non-conformist, all your friends are doing it!
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Azelor Delaria
Caldari The Imperial Fedaykin
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Posted - 2011.03.19 18:54:00 -
[69]
And it's so easy when you're evil. This is the life, you see; The devil tips his hat to me! I do it all because I'm evil, And I do it all for free! ... Your tears are all the pay I'll ever need! ***** ***** ***** *****
"No OPLAN ever survives first contact with the enemy." |
maslikoII
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Posted - 2011.03.19 20:54:00 -
[70]
Edited by: maslikoII on 19/03/2011 20:55:13 As always,breaking something or stealing something scamming is always the easy road,this is the same with real life,ask anyone who has been a "real" crim and has learn't the lesson.I personally think these people weren't breast fed,and more likely have a lower IQ.There has been many studies done on this behavior in real life.When you also consider what the social controllers,have written about over the few hundred years,you basically are being played like a fiddle.What someone does in a game or in real life,says a lot about them.Maybe your wife isn't putting out,because you are lazy,or maybe you just cant get any,then come here to take out on day old players,and believe that you have accomplished some sort of challenge,and now your a winner.
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Chai Bora
Tempest Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.19 21:34:00 -
[71]
Originally by: maslikoII Edited by: maslikoII on 19/03/2011 20:57:07
As always,breaking something or stealing something scamming is always the easy road,this is the same with real life,ask anyone who has been a "real" crim and has learn't the lesson.I personally think these people weren't breast fed,and more likely have a lower IQ.There has been many studies done on this behavior in real life.When you also consider what the social controllers,have written about over the few hundred years,you are basically being played like a fiddle.What someone does in a game or in real life,says a lot about them.Maybe your wife isn't putting out,because you are lazy,or maybe you just cant get any,then come here to take out on day old players,and believe that you have accomplished some sort of challenge,and now your a winner.
But hey,i could be wrong,well you do what you can.....lol
Actually, mine puts out much more when I engage in cave-man-out-group-violence type behavior.
And once again: "There has been many studies done" has no content worth considering. Credible citations or STFU.
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Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island
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Posted - 2011.03.20 01:14:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Ramma Lamma DingDong
This is incorrect on so many levels and is a common rationalization used by sociopaths to rectify self-loathing resulting from their lack of higher level mental functions such as empathy.
If you think sociopaths are not capable of higher level mental functions (and if you believe empathy to be a higher level function), you need to stop posting and start taking psychology 101.
Damn man... you're so far off base you're not in the right country, let alone ballpark.
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Ehranavaar
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Posted - 2011.03.20 19:28:00 -
[73]
Originally by: moneykeeper
The religious, socialists and other such do-gooders often lay claim to being in touch with some kind of cosmic, univeral morality. No such thing exists. People comply with rules only through fear or conditioning.
if you follow the relevant research this does not appear to be the case. it seems some notion of "fair" is embedded in the genes of social creatures like apes and humans.
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Chai Bora
Tempest Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.20 19:39:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Ehranavaar if you follow the relevant research this does not appear to be the case. it seems some notion of "fair" is embedded in the genes of social creatures like apes and humans.
Finally!
Thank you.
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Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island
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Posted - 2011.03.20 22:59:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Chai Bora
Originally by: Ehranavaar if you follow the relevant research this does not appear to be the case. it seems some notion of "fair" is embedded in the genes of social creatures like apes and humans.
Finally!
Thank you.
[ citation needed ]
Also, nothing you can do within the rules stated by CCP is "unfair", there is a counter for everything.
It's just antisocial solo players that end up on the short end of the stick, because they have no friends to counter organized opponents with.
That seems perfectly fair to me.
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Chai Bora
Tempest Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.21 00:30:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Helicity Boson Also, nothing you can do within the rules stated by CCP is "unfair", there is a counter for everything.
It's just antisocial solo players that end up on the short end of the stick, because they have no friends to counter organized opponents with.
That seems perfectly fair to me.
I should have seen that coming ;) [Damn son, Helicity called you out -- wall of text]
Right. That's where I see this notion of "fairness" going within the context of EVE. Within the context of the game rules anything that can be done is "fair" but it might not match up with notions of "fairness" in practice. I'd make an analogy to The Law. By definition the laws ensure objective and "fair" dealings between people/organizations when there is some sort of conflict that needs to be mitigated but if you listen to people talk about decisions made... in say, divorce rulings... you'll catch a lot of debate about whether or not said decisions were in fact fair. So we have EVE where mechanics, the EULA & the occasional appeal to the GMs determining "fair" dealings. Obviously a quick look at forum posts shows that there's a good deal of debate as to whether or not these things are "fair" in the sense of practice. For those anti-social pilots grouping up might be a major incentive to deal with organized opponents and aside from those that aspire to awoxing and corp theft most probably don't deal too dishonestly with those they've chosen to group up with.
On the note of "fairness" as social trait, I'm hesitant to place it entirely in the camp of genetics. A lot of evolutionary biology stuff when applied to people makes me a bit itchy because I think it tends to discount cultural factors too much but that's my own leanings and I don't claim a monopoly on being right there. But on one side you have the game theorist types that talk about the evolution of cooperative strategies as a good strategy to ensure species survival (i.e. because particular genetic traits can continue regardless of which phenotypical expression of those genes happens to reproduce) and use that to explain why people might sacrifice themselves to save a group member that is not a close relative. Though it's a bit dated, Robert Axelrod's "Evolution of Cooperation" (1984) is a good example. Also Oliver Goodenough's 1995 " Mind Viruses: Culture, Evolution and the Puzzle of Altruism."
On the cultural side of things you can extrapolate ideas of 'fairness' through how conflict expressed and resolved in terms of social obligations from classic structural-functionalist works. For example: when there's a conflict between some members of a society you can look at who resolves the conflict and how other members form sides around the conflict (E. E. Evans-Pritchard's "Nuer" and "Witchcraft Among the Anasaze" are good examples, though there's some much more interesting stuff in there as well). For a more recent piece that deals with issues of fairness you could look at Anette Weiner's "Inalienable Possessions: The Paradox of Keeping While Giving" which is a response to Marcel Mauss's "The Gift" which goes back to Malinowski's take on the Trobriand Kula ring as a competitive form of exchange that actually solidifies cooperative bonds... any of Turner's works on the purpose of rituals will touch on this. Also there is a more recent article on the moral legibility of corruption in African societies (it's a resource distribution mechanism that gets grumbled and is hijacked by state structures but nonetheless does factor into reinforcing social cooperation through bonds and obligation) however I lost that paper and can't recall the authors name. And if you really want to get classic you can always go back to Bentham's "Principles of Morals and Legislation."
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Chai Bora
Tempest Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.21 00:35:00 -
[77]
The point being -- there's lots of research from several perspectives that point to "fairness" (though sometimes what is thought of is fair won't gel with the culturally dominant notions of fairness we're seeing here) and cooperation being a general rule in human groups.
What I mostly take exception to is people saying "There's research that proves that people who do bad things in video games are sociopaths." It sounds to me a lot like arguments we've seen before about peoples' tastes in music or entertainment (i.e. watching violent movies or playing GTA means you're a psycho-killer) ... to my knowledge there hasn't been any substantial research that shows this. So, yeah. Citations or it didn't happen.
Sorry for the wall of text.
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Alain Kinsella
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.03.21 07:26:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Chai Bora Whatever the moral character of EVE is, it's forming on top of game design (which I think favors skullduggery) and through group dynamics but it doesn't necessarily correlate to the real-life psychological make-up of players because as a game EVE has its own dynamic social landscape.
To everyone else: sorry for the wall of text -- be thankful I didn't really get into it.
BTW: the EVIL seems more fun.
Used to see these kinds of discussions all the time inSL (for the same reasons). Thanks for the explanations, its appreciated.
I still think there are reasonable motivators for staying 'good' within any game, and not just Eve. The first that comes to mind is having a RL job you really don't want to lose (through some twisted form of the 'Facebook effect'). For example, applying for CSM will 'out' your RL name, which can (in some cases) cause trouble outside the game.
Normally, I sidestep these discussions completely by just applying in games as my RL name. Started that in Uru (in all its forms), continued in There, and eventually did that in SL through the public IRC channel (where I used my normal Unix userid). This form of directness has its obvious drawbacks, so I decided not to do that here (unless I become a volunteer, then I may consider it).
If I'm one of the unique ones here through my attitude, that's fine to me. I *like* being different.
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BlackSparrowHawk
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Posted - 2011.03.21 13:50:00 -
[79]
Edited by: BlackSparrowHawk on 21/03/2011 13:53:45 Edited by: BlackSparrowHawk on 21/03/2011 13:53:12 Edited by: BlackSparrowHawk on 21/03/2011 13:52:30 Most, so called 'evil' people ingame are pussies in real life <fact>
by 'evil' i'm talking those who do things purely out of spite.
Psychological explanation is that they don't have the confidence to be spiteful in real life so they express their non-existing balls in an anonymous online game. In most cases people have more going for them in EVE than in their real life (talking about all you unemployed low lifes ;))
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Porto Betalt
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Posted - 2011.03.21 14:16:00 -
[80]
Meh, I think people need to stop dividing people into good or evil groups. There are no definite group a person belongs to, there are varying degrees of "honesty/goodness" if you want to call it that. As have been mentioned, EVE is a pvp game, both when it comes to ships shooting other ships and players winning over other players on the market or getting access to some corps assets and stealing (almost) everything. Is it "honourable" to buy out every item(in a certain category) on the market and relist it at a higher price, or buying lots of a item when it hits a low for "some" reason and selling again later? For most of the activities in EVE there has to be someone losing ISK for you to gain some.
Every individiual in the game just have to accept that not all of us play by the same rules/ethics, that doesnt mean that someone is a evil person, they just play the game differently. The only way for someone to avoid being on the losing side in this game, be it market or pew-pew pvp, is to accept that everyone in the end is out to enrich themselves somehow. Expect the worst possible scenario at all times and from everyone and you'll do ok.
People complaining about being scammed in EVE, failed the most basic lesson, trust noone.
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Porto Betalt
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Posted - 2011.03.21 14:27:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Ramma Lamma DingDong
Originally by: moneykeeper There is no such things as 'good' and 'evil'. There are only actions and consequences. Can you show me a pound of evil? No, what most people mistake for 'good' is conditioning recieved by the society they grow up in.
The religious, socialists and other such do-gooders often lay claim to being in touch with some kind of cosmic, univeral morality. No such thing exists. People comply with rules only through fear or conditioning.
In Eve we get to come out from behind the mask society forces us to wear and are free to persue our own interests. This is a good thing for everyone except for squealing, weak minded fools.
This is incorrect on so many levels and is a common rationalization used by sociopaths to rectify self-loathing resulting from their lack of higher level mental functions such as empathy. Simply put, they don't possess it so it must not exist. People that do possess it must be religious zealots or it has been forced into them because they are weak.
The truth is almost the opposite. Empathetic reactions occur in children as young as 9 months old. They are natural and necessary in a very Darwinian manner. They are also observed in lesser mammals and even in other animals (birds, octopi.) One could argue that society, religion, etc. is in fact, removing this natural reaction and creating sociopaths and it is they that are the "weak minded fools."
That's what I'd say if I gave a ****.
Well, in the real world there are actual consequences from your actions. People dont just pop up in the last hospital they visited if someone shoots them dead in the street. We have laws in most countries to discourage such actions from happening.
In Eve all we have lost is a couple of hours of grinding/a plex or two worth of stuff if we die, if we are scammed the same stuff there, the ISK we lost in game is pretty much "nothing" for us in the real world. No real reactions towards the people responsible for the "evil" doings except some minor security status loss etc.
I guess what im trying to say is that due to the lack of consequences to our victims and for ourselves, the threshold for doing something that would be a crime in the real world is so much lower for everyone.
Just my thoughts.
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Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island
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Posted - 2011.03.21 15:06:00 -
[82]
I really don't see why people start these enormous (and largely irrelevant) discussions on morality in a fictional world.
It's a rolepaying game. I am roleplaying a villainous cur.
In real life I've never stolen a thing, never purposefully harmed someone, and generally been a caring and giving person (often to my own detriment).
For any well-rounded person that is sound of mind, these two things are entirely separate. You have to be a real looney if you can't segregate a character you play from the person you are. It's absolutely the same as playing a villain on TV.
At least that's how it is for me, I'm sure there's some mental cases around (in both the carebear and pirate camps) that fail at distinguishing between the two things.
I rather think they are the exception rather than the rule; it's the same nonsense line of thinking as with FPS games vis-a-vis highschool shootings. If you listen too much to the uber-moralist nutcases; you'd believe every halo player is a ticking timebomb of highschool assassination waiting to happen.
It's absurd. Sick people may draw inspiration from game activities (or movies, or music, or even novels... catcher in the rye anyone?), games do not make sick people sick, they ARE sick and thus react in bizarre ways to media.
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Ehranavaar
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Posted - 2011.03.21 16:34:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Helicity Boson
Originally by: Chai Bora
Originally by: Ehranavaar if you follow the relevant research this does not appear to be the case. it seems some notion of "fair" is embedded in the genes of social creatures like apes and humans.
Finally!
Thank you.
[ citation needed ]
all of 60 seconds with google will start you down the road of exploration helicity.
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Ehranavaar
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Posted - 2011.03.21 16:43:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Helicity Boson Also, nothing you can do within the rules stated by CCP is "unfair", there is a counter for everything.
i think helicity you are confusing "legal" with "fair". just because ccp lets you do X does not make X right or fair just legal in the game.
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Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island
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Posted - 2011.03.21 17:09:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Ehranavaar
Originally by: Helicity Boson Also, nothing you can do within the rules stated by CCP is "unfair", there is a counter for everything.
i think helicity you are confusing "legal" with "fair". just because ccp lets you do X does not make X right or fair just legal in the game.
I'm not confusing anything. It's not unfair to gank someone that is jumping into lowsec solo, unscouted. Or to probe them in a mission and ransom them. It's not even unfair to suicide gank a hauler, or to steal billions and billions of isk from a corp with poorly arranged asset security.
All of the things I *personally* do can easily be countered by being more cautious, more clever, less lazy.
All these threads invariably boil down to this: There are bears that want absolute safety. They will never get it. It has nothing to do with "fair" it has everything to do with incorrect expectations of what EVE is about.
Don't play a sandbox pvp mmo if you think asymmetrical warfare is "unfair". Go play an instanced MMO where everyone is a hero.
The only things that are unfair in EVE are possibly random chance and using exploits.
Fair is not an objective thing, it's a subjective experience, and your views on what constitute fairness do not mesh with the nature of the game.
Simple as that. There is no point in arguing it even, the above is a fact as far as EVE is concerned.
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Nathan Jameson
Talocan Vanguard Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.03.21 17:54:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Helicity Boson Sick people may draw inspiration from game activities (or movies, or music, or even novels... catcher in the rye anyone?), games do not make sick people sick, they ARE sick and thus react in bizarre ways to media.
I came to this opinion as well after serving in combat arms in Iraq. The soldiers in my platoon who derived the most enjoyment from Manhunt and gunning down populations in GTA, for example, were the soldiers who'd already had issues to begin with. Such as killing their best friend IRL when they were 15, for example.
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Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
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Posted - 2011.03.21 18:22:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha BB you were an intelligent poster, your services good and comprehensive. Why did you have to thrash it all like that . For stupid Monopoly money none the less.
Don't cry, you nonsensical MDer. If not for Monopoly money and tears, why the hell not?
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fiizzzzzzy
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Posted - 2011.03.22 14:31:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Naya Sky
Originally by: Bad Bobby I have no more issue with being the pirate, murder or thief in EVE than I have with being on the Terrorist team in Counter-Strike. Morality doesn't come in to it.
CS game lasts a couple of minutes and EVE lasts quite a bit longer so it's not really much of a comparison.
But lets say that you are a part of a professional CS team and you and your friends work months or even years to improve your team to a point where you can win major tournaments together. And on that final and most important tournament you decide to go all crazy and shot your team-mates. It's just a game right?
yes it will ALWAYS be a game, if you cant see that get therapy
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Aydala
Minmatar Lonetrek Salvage and Scrap
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Posted - 2011.03.23 23:42:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Misty McGinnity its more fun having a "good" character & a bad one.
best of both worlds.
hence the reason I play this game....to grief. plain and simple.
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Ehranavaar
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Posted - 2011.03.24 16:16:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Helicity Boson
i think helicity you are confusing "legal" with "fair". just because ccp lets you do X does not make X right or fair just legal in the game.
I'm not confusing anything. It's not unfair to gank someone that is jumping into lowsec solo, unscouted. Or to probe them in a mission and ransom them. It's not even unfair to suicide gank a hauler, or to steal billions and billions of isk from a corp with poorly arranged asset security.
you appear to be deeply confused helicity. whether you can legally do someting or not has virtually nothing to do with the fairness of the act in question. nor does whether or not the act could have been prevented by the "victim" have much bearing on the ethical nature of the act.
for instance if you got mugged after cashing your paycheck and lost it all to villainy your feelings would be that it was "fair" as you could have left the money in the bank instead of carrying it with you thus preventing the viallainy? i'd be very surprised to find that was what you actually thought.
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