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cosmoray
Cosmoray Holdings Corp
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Posted - 2011.03.18 03:53:00 -
[1]
Well I left, I hadn't logged in but I have been reading the forums. I would have stayed away but for the person who called me a "sociopath", which I did enjoy a lot.
Anyway it got me thinking, many people get kicks playing this game in different ways. From my thread I realised in my case that being an evil sociopath is much more fun than running a business. What was I thinking, I go to work every day and "run" (my small piece) a business. When I play Eve I just get to be an ass.
I found these lovely links to sometheorising about being evil in games, and people crying over losing "loot" in fantasy game.
Noobs crying a lot
Are evil people in games, evil in real life
One of the things that killed me here was the morph into everything being a perfect world, morals, living a perfect life, and lots of pointless VV threads.
Obviously VV likes to play nicey, nicey but isn't it more fun being bad? Just look at what happens to priests who have to spend their whole life being nice!!!
Yes, I am an attention grabbing w*%re.
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Tutskii
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Posted - 2011.03.18 03:57:00 -
[2]
reserve 5 bill pending audit
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Clown Pron
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Posted - 2011.03.18 03:58:00 -
[3]
Everyone is just butthurt
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Lando Antilles
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Posted - 2011.03.18 04:00:00 -
[4]
Glib useless post: ISK sent.
Attempt at humor: Wait a second... that was the problem that started this whole mess
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Misty McGinnity
Mystify Trading Company
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Posted - 2011.03.18 04:06:00 -
[5]
its more fun having a "good" character & a bad one.
best of both worlds.
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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2011.03.18 04:12:00 -
[6]
Like many ponzi scammers, I'm convinced you are just a failed businessman trying to make the best of a situation that got out of your control. Otherwise, your haul per year is pretty pitiful. Please, stop with the facade. It's embarrassing.
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Loraine Gess
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Posted - 2011.03.18 04:13:00 -
[7]
Brilliant once again mister cosmoray. When can we invest?
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Cheque Please
Hot Like Mexico
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Posted - 2011.03.18 04:24:00 -
[8]
Evil is more fun if you're a sociopath, you sociopath --- RL Meeting w/ Chribba
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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2011.03.18 06:07:00 -
[9]
Okay, I take it back, a lot of people are apparently falling for the facade.
Way to be a failed spaceship game capitalist devious scammer who totally planned all this from the start.
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Cyaxares II
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Posted - 2011.03.18 08:04:00 -
[10]
Being evil is only fun if there are overzealous "saints" opposing you.
Imagine you are evil and nobody cares...
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Khanid Voltar
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2011.03.18 08:11:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Khanid Voltar on 18/03/2011 08:11:38
Originally by: Emperor Cheney Like many ponzi scammers, I'm convinced you are just a failed businessman trying to make the best of a situation that got out of your control. Otherwise, your haul per year is pretty pitiful.
QFT
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Roguehalo
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2011.03.18 08:31:00 -
[12]
You are now a pariah. Just slink off into the night.
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Slavemaster
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Posted - 2011.03.18 08:36:00 -
[13]
zzzzzz
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.03.18 08:52:00 -
[14]
Originally by: cosmoray
Well I left, I hadn't logged in but I have been reading the forums.
Several days ago, on SCC Lounge you said you'd sell the character (was it for 1B?) or biomass. Did the sale go as bad as the rest of your venture?
By your words, you are supposed to biomass, then.
Originally by: Cyaxares II
Being evil is only fun if there are overzealous "saints" opposing you.
Imagine you are evil and nobody cares...
QFT.
You are spent. Used. Gone. Boring. So 2010. None cares of yet another weak copy of Bad Bobby or the countless YAWN guys who believe being the next scammer is any better than being the next snowflake.
Originally by: cosmoray
Just look at what happens to priests who have to spend their whole life being nice!!!
It is written - and they accept it - that those who will do good will face against evil and will possibly die.
People who die for their ideals are a rare breed, those who die for helping other people are even rarer and are an example for the others to follow.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Magnu Stormhawk
Stormhawk Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.03.18 08:54:00 -
[15]
Originally by: cosmoray isn't it more fun being bad?
No, it's the easy option.
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Atima
Minmatar House of Marbles
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Posted - 2011.03.18 09:25:00 -
[16]
Personally I don't understand the hate that is laid against scamming. It is well within game mechanics, his and most importantly your choice that this can occur.
Oh don't get me wrong cosmoray, I still dont like you. Not for scamming though, but for ****poasting in my threads about 2 years ago and telling everyone how obvious it is I was a scammer. Ironic really ;)
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.03.18 09:31:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Atima Personally I don't understand the hate that is laid against scamming. It is well within game mechanics, his and most importantly your choice that this can occur.
It's also well within RL mechanics and a choice in there as well (just *sometimes* with some more consequences). This might why people apply in game the same "hate" they apply in RL.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Bad Bobby
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.18 11:21:00 -
[18]
Originally by: cosmoray isn't it more fun being bad?
Outside of roleplaying, I don't see the relevance of good and evil in what is essentially a cut throat, high stakes, PvP focused game.
I have no more issue with being the pirate, murder or thief in EVE than I have with being on the Terrorist team in Counter-Strike. Morality doesn't come in to it.
In MD, there is a complex game being played both within and between the groups of Investors, Scammers and Businessmen. This game is made all the more complex by the fact that nobody knows which group you are in, in fact you can be on all three teams at once. But no matter how complex and cut throat that game gets, it's still a game.
There is a lot of outrage and tears to be found here, as with other arenas within EVE. There are roleplayers that do get immersed into the role they have chosen and discuss things as if they were real. There are people that take the game a little too seriously, to the point where in-game events actually do cause them real distress. There are people that are simply sore losers, or petulant children, that cannot deal with loss in a mature way. None of this changes the fact that it's just a game, with winners and losers. Good and evil are no more than team colours... if even that.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.03.18 11:26:00 -
[19]
BB you were an intelligent poster, your services good and comprehensive. Why did you have to thrash it all like that . For stupid Monopoly money none the less.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.03.18 11:34:00 -
[20]
Originally by: cosmoray Well I left, I hadn't logged in but I have been reading the forums. I would have stayed away but for the person who called me a "sociopath", which I did enjoy a lot.
Anyway it got me thinking, many people get kicks playing this game in different ways. From my thread I realised in my case that being an evil sociopath is much more fun than running a business. What was I thinking, I go to work every day and "run" (my small piece) a business. When I play Eve I just get to be an ass.
I found these lovely links to sometheorising about being evil in games, and people crying over losing "loot" in fantasy game.
Noobs crying a lot
Are evil people in games, evil in real life
One of the things that killed me here was the morph into everything being a perfect world, morals, living a perfect life, and lots of pointless VV threads.
Obviously VV likes to play nicey, nicey but isn't it more fun being bad? Just look at what happens to priests who have to spend their whole life being nice!!!
Yes, I am an attention grabbing w*%re.
People like to be stupid and lazy in real life, I don't see how that changes when they start playing games. Case in point. What you've done and what you do will be of little note to anyone 2 years from now.
But hey, welcome back for the handful of weeks you manage to maintain enough interest to post.
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Naya Sky
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Posted - 2011.03.18 11:40:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Bad Bobby I have no more issue with being the pirate, murder or thief in EVE than I have with being on the Terrorist team in Counter-Strike. Morality doesn't come in to it.
CS game lasts a couple of minutes and EVE lasts quite a bit longer so it's not really much of a comparison.
But lets say that you are a part of a professional CS team and you and your friends work months or even years to improve your team to a point where you can win major tournaments together. And on that final and most important tournament you decide to go all crazy and shot your team-mates. It's just a game right?
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Bad Bobby
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.18 11:47:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha BB you were an intelligent poster, your services good and comprehensive. Why did you have to thrash it all like that . For stupid Monopoly money none the less.
I don't think I've become a less intelligent poster and my services are still active, busy and profitable.
I think that you see MD as being a more significant entity in EVE than it actually is and therefore you perceive that I have thrown away a great deal more than I have in reality. Business in the wider world of EVE is done on a daily basis between enemys and rivals, my scam is of little consequence when it comes to people's willingness to do business with me.
All I have lost is the ability to draw upon MD as a source of investment for this character. I can still raise considerable funds from other sources, like my various corps, alliances and my wider circle of friends and generally with less effort than it takes to raise the same funds in MD. Indeed I can still raise funds in MD, should it suit me to do so.
So what have I really lost here? The ability to post with authority in MD? The admiration of a group of people on the internet? I grant you that my scam was not a 100% win for me, but it's also not the "trash it all for monopoly money" that you see it as.
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Bad Bobby
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.18 12:05:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Naya Sky
Originally by: Bad Bobby I have no more issue with being the pirate, murder or thief in EVE than I have with being on the Terrorist team in Counter-Strike. Morality doesn't come in to it.
CS game lasts a couple of minutes and EVE lasts quite a bit longer so it's not really much of a comparison.
But lets say that you are a part of a professional CS team and you and your friends work months or even years to improve your team to a point where you can win major tournaments together. And on that final and most important tournament you decide to go all crazy and shot your team-mates. It's just a game right?
That's not really much of a comparison either is it?
None of my friends or corp mates were scammed by T4U. All my friends that invested were refunded in full and some were given the chance to sell their shares, once the scam had been executed but before it was reported, for extra profit. I never shot a team mate either. One of the most interesting aspects of MD is the fact that you never know which "team" anyone is on.
By contrast, you would never see me gunning down my own team mate in the alliance tournament... oh wait... I did do that, didn't I... Well, it was for the good of the team. :)
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Magnu Stormhawk
Stormhawk Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.03.18 12:05:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Naya Sky
But lets say that you are a part of a professional CS team and you and your friends work months or even years to improve your team to a point where you can win major tournaments together. And on that final and most important tournament you decide to go all crazy and shot your team-mates. It's just a game right?
Was just thinking of a nice analogy but i think this one hits the spot. The "it's just red team / blue team" theory is horse****.
Some people like to bring morality into EVE because it improves their game experience. Some people like to flush morality down the toilet because it improves their game experience. The game needs both types of people to make it the interesting and complex world that it is. However, both types of player use or abuse morality one way or another to achieve their goals and get their kicks, so saying morality doesn't come into it is rubbish.
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Bad Bobby
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.18 12:16:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Magnu Stormhawk Some people like to bring morality into EVE because it improves their game experience. Some people like to flush morality down the toilet because it improves their game experience.
Yes, they are called roleplayers. Even if they don't see themselves as such.
Originally by: Magnu Stormhawk so saying morality doesn't come into it is rubbish.
I was referring entirely to my own perspective. I am not a roleplayer. For me the game is a game and nothing more. I don't consider the morality of separating a person from their ship in PvP and I don't consider the morality of separating a person from their isk in a scam. For me, morality doesn't come in to it because I am playing a PvP orientated game where everyone risks their assets by design.
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Mister Rocknrolla
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Posted - 2011.03.18 12:34:00 -
[26]
Originally by: cosmoray Yes, I am an attention grabbing w*%re.
^^This seems to be a more common and serious ailment around here than 'evil-ness'
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Caldariftw123
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Posted - 2011.03.18 12:50:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Caldariftw123 on 18/03/2011 12:51:37
Originally by: Bad Bobby
Originally by: Magnu Stormhawk Some people like to bring morality into EVE because it improves their game experience. Some people like to flush morality down the toilet because it improves their game experience.
Yes, they are called roleplayers. Even if they don't see themselves as such.
So you are a roleplayer? Unless you are an "evil" guy in real life, then YOU are the one playing the role and all those people that abide by laws, or think stealing is morally wrong, are the ones being themselves ie NOT roleplayers.
Cosmoray, nobody cares about your story, be quiet.
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Magnu Stormhawk
Stormhawk Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.03.18 12:51:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Bad Bobby
I was referring entirely to my own perspective. I am not a roleplayer. For me the game is a game and nothing more. I don't consider the morality of separating a person from their ship in PvP and I don't consider the morality of separating a person from their isk in a scam. For me, morality doesn't come in to it because I am playing a PvP orientated game where everyone risks their assets by design.
Yet you refer to your 'friends and team-mates' and tell us how you didn't scam them and wouldn't shoot them. What else apart from morality drives you to do that? You are a role-player just as much as anyone else because you are given choices. You choose to ally with some people and screw over others because thats how you get your kicks.
The fact that EVE does not have a 'purpose' or an aim to the game means that 'winning' is different for everyone. Therefore you cannot compare it to simple games where there is a clear goal and morality is truly irrelevant. EVE features an element of choice. I accept it is just your perspective, but I can't see how you can say morality doesn't feature anywhere for you.
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Hel O'Ween
Men On A Mission
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Posted - 2011.03.18 13:10:00 -
[29]
Evil = easy & lazy. It's as simple as that. -- EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager |
egola
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.03.18 13:11:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Magnu Stormhawk
Originally by: Bad Bobby
I was referring entirely to my own perspective. I am not a roleplayer. For me the game is a game and nothing more. I don't consider the morality of separating a person from their ship in PvP and I don't consider the morality of separating a person from their isk in a scam. For me, morality doesn't come in to it because I am playing a PvP orientated game where everyone risks their assets by design.
Yet you refer to your 'friends and team-mates' and tell us how you didn't scam them and wouldn't shoot them. What else apart from morality drives you to do that? You are a role-player just as much as anyone else because you are given choices. You choose to ally with some people and screw over others because thats how you get your kicks.
The fact that EVE does not have a 'purpose' or an aim to the game means that 'winning' is different for everyone. Therefore you cannot compare it to simple games where there is a clear goal and morality is truly irrelevant. EVE features an element of choice. I accept it is just your perspective, but I can't see how you can say morality doesn't feature anywhere for you.
don't forget its also perfectly natural that people DO try to justify their actions, so its not so much that he doesn't have morality , but rather hes selectively ignoring it to perform said action.
hes only actively denying it to justify what he would otherwise find it as "evil", guess we all need that little something to prevent ourselves from being paradoxical to our values/beliefs
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Bad Bobby
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.18 13:32:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Caldariftw123
Originally by: Bad Bobby
Originally by: Magnu Stormhawk Some people like to bring morality into EVE because it improves their game experience. Some people like to flush morality down the toilet because it improves their game experience.
Yes, they are called roleplayers. Even if they don't see themselves as such.
So you are a roleplayer? Unless you are an "evil" guy in real life, then YOU are the one playing the role and all those people that abide by laws, or think stealing is morally wrong, are the ones being themselves ie NOT roleplayers.
I don't see it that way.
I don't consider morality to be relevant within a game. I believe that those that do are roleplayers. They are giving moral meaning to events within a computer game. I don't consider myself as "evil" within the game, I don't consider the concepts of "good" or "evil" to be relevant or even exist beyond roleplaying and background fiction within the game.
I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with roleplaying and I'm not saying that I don't on occasion indulge in it in a limited way, but as a rule I play the game no differently than I would play space invaders. I push buttons, kill the aliens and try to get a high score.
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Nathan Jameson
Talocan Vanguard Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.03.18 13:39:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Nathan Jameson on 18/03/2011 13:39:53
Originally by: Hel O'Ween Evil = easy & lazy. It's as simple as that.
Not if you consider how much work went into Bad Bobby's scheme, Helicity's periodic Hulkageddons, etc. Though I understand your point that a lot of "evil" occurs because being "good" gets to require too much work.
I'm kind of a mix of both myself, I guess. I love being trustworthy enough as a player to build relationships and an empire; but at the same time, I love blowing up people's POS's and everything in them simply because I can.
Edit: Woah! Bad Bobby. Didn't see you there. Stop sneaking up on me like that.
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Bad Bobby
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.18 13:45:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Magnu Stormhawk
Originally by: Bad Bobby I was referring entirely to my own perspective. I am not a roleplayer. For me the game is a game and nothing more. I don't consider the morality of separating a person from their ship in PvP and I don't consider the morality of separating a person from their isk in a scam. For me, morality doesn't come in to it because I am playing a PvP orientated game where everyone risks their assets by design.
Yet you refer to your 'friends and team-mates' and tell us how you didn't scam them and wouldn't shoot them. What else apart from morality drives you to do that?
Because they are on my team. In most situations it is tactically unwise to shoot ones own team. Fixing alliance tournaments aside, it doesn't generally help you win.
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Caldariftw123
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Posted - 2011.03.18 13:46:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Bad Bobby
Originally by: Caldariftw123
Originally by: Bad Bobby
Originally by: Magnu Stormhawk Some people like to bring morality into EVE because it improves their game experience. Some people like to flush morality down the toilet because it improves their game experience.
Yes, they are called roleplayers. Even if they don't see themselves as such.
So you are a roleplayer? Unless you are an "evil" guy in real life, then YOU are the one playing the role and all those people that abide by laws, or think stealing is morally wrong, are the ones being themselves ie NOT roleplayers.
I don't see it that way.
I don't consider morality to be relevant within a game. I believe that those that do are roleplayers. They are giving moral meaning to events within a computer game. I don't consider myself as "evil" within the game, I don't consider the concepts of "good" or "evil" to be relevant or even exist beyond roleplaying and background fiction within the game.
I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with roleplaying and I'm not saying that I don't on occasion indulge in it in a limited way, but as a rule I play the game no differently than I would play space invaders. I push buttons, kill the aliens and try to get a high score.
The very definition would be someone who plays a role - you are not evil in real life, yet you are one of the "bad guys" in this game. The other people are not evil in real life, and they are one of the "good guys" in this game. You are the role player.
It's not an insult, as you said, it's the truth though - you don't have to try and justify what you did or whatever, it's OK to scam in this game according to it's rules, so stop being embarrassed about it.
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Lauren Hellfury
Full Pocket Aggro
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Posted - 2011.03.18 13:57:00 -
[35]
and therein lies the crux.
It's within the game rules, so he's a good guy because he is playing by the rules.
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flakeys
The Great cornholio's
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Posted - 2011.03.18 14:04:00 -
[36]
Not a market discussion topic , reported ...
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.03.18 14:09:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Bad Bobby
I don't think I've become a less intelligent poster
I don't dispute that, but whatever you'll say will be easily trolled, considered dubious at best and so on. You are sort of trapped.
Originally by: Bad Bobby
All my friends that invested were refunded in full and some were given the chance to sell their shares, once the scam had been executed but before it was reported, for extra profit
But now how do they know that you are not going to pull the same stunt on them some day, for whatever newfound convenience you discovered on the run?
Players in EvE start with a "don't trust anyone because you never know" bias already. In your case they DO know that you have done it once, why not again?
Originally by: Caldariftw123
So you are a roleplayer? Unless you are an "evil" guy in real life, then YOU are the one playing the role and all those people that abide by laws, or think stealing is morally wrong, are the ones being themselves ie NOT roleplayers.
You said exactly what I was about to.
Also, by stating that it'd be unwise to shoot on his own team mates it shows an utilitaristic view. "It's good for my aims => I act good. It's irrelevant => I act bad.". Since most things are irrelevant to one's life / aims then by default such personality will try squeeze out value of the next guy with little remorse.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Bad Bobby
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.18 14:12:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Caldariftw123
Originally by: Bad Bobby
Originally by: Caldariftw123 So you are a roleplayer? Unless you are an "evil" guy in real life, then YOU are the one playing the role and all those people that abide by laws, or think stealing is morally wrong, are the ones being themselves ie NOT roleplayers.
I don't see it that way.
I don't consider morality to be relevant within a game. I believe that those that do are roleplayers. They are giving moral meaning to events within a computer game. I don't consider myself as "evil" within the game, I don't consider the concepts of "good" or "evil" to be relevant or even exist beyond roleplaying and background fiction within the game.
I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with roleplaying and I'm not saying that I don't on occasion indulge in it in a limited way, but as a rule I play the game no differently than I would play space invaders. I push buttons, kill the aliens and try to get a high score.
The very definition would be someone who plays a role - you are not evil in real life, yet you are one of the "bad guys" in this game. The other people are not evil in real life, and they are one of the "good guys" in this game. You are the role player.
It's not an insult, as you said, it's the truth though - you don't have to try and justify what you did or whatever, it's OK to scam in this game according to it's rules, so stop being embarrassed about it.
No, I don't assume a role when playing EVE. I'm just myself. I don't select my actions based on what my chosen persona would do in a given situation, I do what I would do in a given situation. All those situations occur within a game, so I'm not doing what I would do if I was a real spaceship captain, I'm doing what I would do as a person playing internet spaceships. There is no make-believe going on in my playstyle and I don't dress up in funny hats when I go out pirating...
...thinking about it though, I have been known to shout "yarrr!!!" on occasion... so maybe I am a closet roleplayer after all.
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Caldariftw123
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Posted - 2011.03.18 14:17:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Nathan Jameson Edited by: Nathan Jameson on 18/03/2011 13:39:53
Originally by: Hel O'Ween Evil = easy & lazy. It's as simple as that.
Not if you consider how much work went into Bad Bobby's scheme, Helicity's periodic Hulkageddons, etc. Though I understand your point that a lot of "evil" occurs because being "good" gets to require too much work.
I disagree entirely with this, the WORK part of his enterprise was 'being good' and he continues that enterprise today, the easy part was the decision and effort required to scam. It wasn't some giant effort to scam everyone out of the isk, it was an effort to build a legitimate business which when a hole in the security presented itself allowed him the easy option of cutting the investors out of the equation and continuing the business solo.
Helicity puts quite a bit of work into hulkageddon, which I don't see as "evil" - there is no betrayal involved, which makes it less morally ambiguous than something like an MD scam. It is, however, quite a bit of work and the effort required to build the business and run it legitimately is real - the EASY option would be for Hulkageddon V to scam the prize money, that would be EASY, and it would be lame.
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Caldariftw123
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Posted - 2011.03.18 14:20:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Bad Bobby
Originally by: Caldariftw123
Originally by: Bad Bobby
Originally by: Caldariftw123 So you are a roleplayer? Unless you are an "evil" guy in real life, then YOU are the one playing the role and all those people that abide by laws, or think stealing is morally wrong, are the ones being themselves ie NOT roleplayers.
I don't see it that way.
I don't consider morality to be relevant within a game. I believe that those that do are roleplayers. They are giving moral meaning to events within a computer game. I don't consider myself as "evil" within the game, I don't consider the concepts of "good" or "evil" to be relevant or even exist beyond roleplaying and background fiction within the game.
I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with roleplaying and I'm not saying that I don't on occasion indulge in it in a limited way, but as a rule I play the game no differently than I would play space invaders. I push buttons, kill the aliens and try to get a high score.
The very definition would be someone who plays a role - you are not evil in real life, yet you are one of the "bad guys" in this game. The other people are not evil in real life, and they are one of the "good guys" in this game. You are the role player.
It's not an insult, as you said, it's the truth though - you don't have to try and justify what you did or whatever, it's OK to scam in this game according to it's rules, so stop being embarrassed about it.
No, I don't assume a role when playing EVE. I'm just myself. I don't select my actions based on what my chosen persona would do in a given situation, I do what I would do in a given situation. All those situations occur within a game, so I'm not doing what I would do if I was a real spaceship captain, I'm doing what I would do as a person playing internet spaceships. There is no make-believe going on in my playstyle and I don't dress up in funny hats when I go out pirating...
...thinking about it though, I have been known to shout "yarrr!!!" on occasion... so maybe I am a closet roleplayer after all.
See you are equating roleplay with something negative. It's not. You played the role of someone running a legitimate business, and then betrayed the investor trust. Unless you are saying you would build a legitimate business in real life and then steal from it, then you roleplayed in this game as someone other than your natural self.
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Bad Bobby
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.18 14:51:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Caldariftw123 You played the role of someone running a legitimate business, and then betrayed the investor trust. Unless you are saying you would build a legitimate business in real life and then steal from it, then you roleplayed in this game as someone other than your natural self.
You have a different view of roleplaying to me.
I associate it with make-believe, immersion and adopting a persona. You appear to see it as doing anything within a game. So we're not really talking about the same thing when we use the word.
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Liberty Eternal
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Posted - 2011.03.18 17:08:00 -
[42]
There's a simple answer to the Op's question - the answer is "no".
I don't view Cosmoray or bad bobby as "evil" just as complete failures who couldn't run a pretend internet bizniz at 3% interest per month.
Where is their honour, their sense of achievment, their self-esteem? They don't have any, and they enjoy this to compensate for their failures in their real lives.
Srsly, is just sad - it's pathetic to betray your friends who respected you and trusted you just to get your own back because you had a bad day at work or whatever. I don't understand the mentality of thse scammers but they are clearly self-destructive losers.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2011.03.18 17:55:00 -
[43]
Originally by: cosmoray When I play Eve I just get to be an ass.
You were an arse when you were pretending to be a good guy too. I guess you just can't shake some characteristics.
Quote:
One of the things that killed me here was the morph into everything being a perfect world, morals, living a perfect life, and lots of pointless VV threads.
I thought it was all part of an evil masterplan worked out from the start? Are you now saying 'MD made me do it'?
Btw - Any response to the rumours about you getting a bunch of accounts with most of your assets on them banned for connection to RMT laundering?
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Tutskii
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Posted - 2011.03.18 18:06:00 -
[44]
I think its cute how the "evil" term gets thrown around and used here. Evil is many rather unsavoury acts you can commit IRL, which I would not go in detail here. But stealing a rather mediocre amount of space money over however many years?
Come on, you are team rocket jumping from a bush somewhere and asking for a pikachu.
Where's the Evil?
The rumors I've heard go from getting caught rmt'ing and having a few important money mule accounts deleted, to simply being a failure at business and choosing the "just according to keikaku" escape pod.
But even if your version was the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but, then you still failed.
None of that is evil, rather, its actually fairly pathetic.
Bad Bobby is the only one here that gets to wear the "Master Plan" cap and its more of a stylistic role playing choice "And now, for something completely different, I take ur isks!" which at least had some sort of plan and a successful execution.
Yours is just bad Cosmo.
But hardly evil.
Hell, Erectus Trolleptor may be more evil than you could ever be. And he is the guy gloating about how he stole 5 bil (talk about sad ;/).
You are more of a failure. Don't take this the wrong way, from hanging out you seemed pretty chill, but a pear is a pear and a failed space business man is a failed space businessman.
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cosmoray
Cosmoray Holdings Corp
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Posted - 2011.03.18 18:08:00 -
[45]
Btw - Any response to the rumours about you getting a bunch of accounts with most of your assets on them banned for connection to RMT laundering?
I can state categorically that I never RMT'd any of my assets or ISK
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RAW23
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Posted - 2011.03.18 18:11:00 -
[46]
Edited by: RAW23 on 18/03/2011 18:12:17
Originally by: cosmoray
Quote:
Btw - Any response to the rumours about you getting a bunch of accounts with most of your assets on them banned for connection to RMT laundering?
I can state categorically that I never RMT'd any of my assets or ISK
Hmmm ... nicely equivocal. The claim was that your loan service was used as a fallback by RMTers when they didn't have sufficient cash to hand, not that you actually engaged in RMT yourself. Did you have any accounts banned?
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.03.18 18:14:00 -
[47]
Originally by: RAW23
I thought it was all part of an evil masterplan worked out from the start? Are you now saying 'MD made me do it'
I want to add my experience about this.
You know you don't usually find someone talking about his defects on MD (but you may find a lot of posts of mine doing so).
You know you don't usually find someone thanking others expecially in EvE.
But - as I have done in the past - I feel no remorse stating my true feelings:
I am thankful to MD. It did not push me to become "evil". On the contrary, I came to MD because I was attracted by something I did not know at all: business, finance.
I was amazed that people could build a whole social infrastructure with bonds, IPOs, banks... It's just huge!
And then I found many people - some became friends - to teach me so many things. Finance and much more... it all started off MD.
After I lost my job (probably forever, no way a 40 old can get employed again with dignity here), I actually LIVE because of what MD teached me. It pushed me to explore RL finance and trading and now I may afford a crappy life but still ... a life.
I can't even imagine how someone would thrash the learning opportunities spread all over MD. Much less why he would become "evil" because of them.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
cosmoray
Cosmoray Holdings Corp
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Posted - 2011.03.18 18:29:00 -
[48]
I can confirm that I only have 1 account left. The Cosmoray account.
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YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2011.03.18 18:40:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Bad Bobby
Originally by: Caldariftw123 You played the role of someone running a legitimate business, and then betrayed the investor trust. Unless you are saying you would build a legitimate business in real life and then steal from it, then you roleplayed in this game as someone other than your natural self.
You have a different view of roleplaying to me.
I associate it with make-believe, immersion and adopting a persona. You appear to see it as doing anything within a game. So we're not really talking about the same thing when we use the word.
I believe there's a distinction to be made between roleplaying as an evil character and compulsion.
On a beautiful summer day, I was playing BF2 on an obscure server that had little to no maintenance from admins (later it became my favorite server), when I noticed players complaining about getting teamkilled. The guy's name was LTyear (cant remember the exact year) and he immediately peaked my attention. An absolutely lousy player by any standards, I've killed him easily the very moment he approached me, though what he lacked in aiming skills, he compensated by sheer determination: no matter how many times he got killed, he kept coming and teamkilling unaware teammates.
Speaking of my team, those idiots would not have been able to get anything done even if their lives depended on it, we were losing round after round. At the beginning of the next round, I've sent a team message warning about the imperiousness of securing the central hill, an excellent vantage point that would later decided the outcome of the round. No one listened and despite my best efforts we lost. I've picked the engineer kit, pointed the shotgun at the teammate closest to me and shot him. I immediately felt better, my anger slowly melted away only to be replaced by a sadistic pleasure as the second and third victim fell. At that point, even if I wanted to stop I couldn't. I've managed to convince LT that we were on the same side, and proceeded to eradicate our team. T'was one of the most intense and rewarding experience in my life.
There was a problem though... a top player like me was way more effective than what LT had done so far and pretty soon the rest of the server population could no longer ignore our rampage. I did get LT's mail address though before the kick/ban vote was finalized. Haven't seen him again in the game though.
The best game to teamkill to your heart's content is BF BC2 though, simply because with the medic kit you can revive your victims and teamkill them again. There's nothing like standing atop of your victim with the defibrillator, reviving him and in the next second one shooting him as he tries to run away.
Black Sun Empire |
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CCP Adida
C C P C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2011.03.18 18:53:00 -
[50]
Moved from Market Discussions
Adida Community Rep CCP Hf, EVE Online
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Caldariftw123
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Posted - 2011.03.18 18:56:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Bad Bobby
Originally by: Caldariftw123 You played the role of someone running a legitimate business, and then betrayed the investor trust. Unless you are saying you would build a legitimate business in real life and then steal from it, then you roleplayed in this game as someone other than your natural self.
You have a different view of roleplaying to me.
I associate it with make-believe, immersion and adopting a persona. You appear to see it as doing anything within a game. So we're not really talking about the same thing when we use the word.
No, if you blow up a ship or you conquer some 0.0 alliance territory or construct a titan with your industrial empire then you are doing something inside the game. If you set up a fake business on the MD forum with the aim of scamming then you are actively pretending to be someone you are not. That is roleplay.
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DJ's Brother
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Posted - 2011.03.18 19:07:00 -
[52]
lol. looks like you've got a new home cosmo.
let the C&P trolling commence! |
Bad Bobby
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.18 19:44:00 -
[53]
Oh, C&P... I need to switch characters now :(
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Frau Klaps
Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2011.03.18 19:56:00 -
[54]
Oh dear :CCP: ---
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Maverick2011
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Posted - 2011.03.18 20:01:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Hel O'Ween Evil = easy & lazy. It's as simple as that.
This.
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Myra2007
Millstone Industries
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Posted - 2011.03.18 20:43:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Cyaxares II
Being evil is only fun if there are overzealous "saints" opposing you.
Imagine you are evil and nobody cares...
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
You are spent. Used. Gone. Boring. So 2010. None cares of yet another weak copy of Bad Bobby or the countless YAWN guys who believe being the next scammer is any better than being the next snowflake.
Not to be rude but that gave me a little smile. To me it appears that you in fact are that "overzealous saint". Where would you be in a world that does not care about evil? Exactly where you are now... --
Originally by: Professor Slocombe
I will only buy tickets if the prize is your stuff and you leave Eve. Forever. You irritating self obsessed cretin.
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FunzzeR
Malevolence. Imperial 0rder
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Posted - 2011.03.18 21:28:00 -
[57]
Yes. PRAISE THE SCOTTISH FOLD!!
THEIR WILL SHALL BE DONE!! |
Alain Kinsella
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.03.18 21:33:00 -
[58]
Hrm, I'd have thought OOPE would fit better. May end up that way shortly.
Anyway, I understand BB's outlook toward Eve, since I saw the same thing inSL quite a bit. But a combination of my own morals (and my deep interest in challenges) drive me to be one of the good/honorable folks here.
Why? Because, as some have said already, its freakin hard at times. This game is designed around trust for its social (and Corp/Alliance) interactions, but like SL it has almost no mechanics to limit what happens when a high-trust situation breaks down. [Actually, thinking about it, SL has less restrictions than Eve.]
I suppose in some way its why I like Eve - it keeps me on my toes more than SL ever did.
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Berikath
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Posted - 2011.03.18 22:05:00 -
[59]
Quote: Isn't it more fun being evil?
For me? Yes. For about 5 minutes. Then I get bored.
But then again, I have no interest in power for power's sake, and in fact only seek to take control of something when the guy who IS in control is managing to bork it up in some way which is a nuisance to me... so apparently I'm weird.
To me, it's kinda like a game of whack-a-mole. It's fun and cute the first time. Maybe the 2nd-5th times you try and figure out the best strategy. After that, you already have it worked out and get to a point of "oh yeah... so it's another piece of painted plastic popping out of another hole. Whack it with a stick. Done it, boring".
Originally by: Bad Bobby
I don't consider morality to be relevant within a game. I believe that those that do are roleplayers. They are giving moral meaning to events within a computer game. I don't consider myself as "evil" within the game, I don't consider the concepts of "good" or "evil" to be relevant or even exist beyond roleplaying and background fiction within the game.
I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with roleplaying and I'm not saying that I don't on occasion indulge in it in a limited way, but as a rule I play the game no differently than I would play space invaders. I push buttons, kill the aliens and try to get a high score.
1. You are engaging with people you don't know about your actions in a game. You ARE role-playing, just with fewer imposed rules than "traditional roleplayers"... mainly because we're all role-playing all the time.
2. Yes, EVE is a game... but that doesn't mean your actions are completely free of any moral judgments or states. "Good" and "evil" are probably too strong, since I wouldn't say what you did was precisely evil, but "morally wrong" probably wouldn't be too much of a stretch. Remember- games aren't real life, but they often (if not always) MIRROR some part of real life. Games are even a big part of how we learn as humans (particularly, how we learn social rules and behaviors).
For instance, let's say someone cheats in a baseball game. Is that wrong? It is, after all, just a game.
*** [ SIG] ***
Wish list for PI:
*One-click input routing *Copy product, inputs & outputs in factories *Launchpad upgrades: twice the space, twice the cost, half the hassle! [ /sig ] |
Thoraemond
Minmatar Far Ranger
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Posted - 2011.03.19 00:55:00 -
[60]
Originally by: cosmoray
Originally by: RAW23 Any response to the rumours about you getting a bunch of accounts with most of your assets on them banned for connection to RMT laundering?
I can state categorically that I never RMT'd any of my assets or ISK
Originally by: cosmoray I can confirm that I only have 1 account left. The cosmoray account.
Assuming this is true, is that because the other accounts were banned? Or are you implying that you sold accounts via RMT, though not assets or ISK?
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cosmoray
Cosmoray Holdings Corp
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Posted - 2011.03.19 03:38:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Thoraemond
Originally by: cosmoray
Originally by: RAW23 Any response to the rumours about you getting a bunch of accounts with most of your assets on them banned for connection to RMT laundering?
I can state categorically that I never RMT'd any of my assets or ISK
Originally by: cosmoray I can confirm that I only have 1 account left. The cosmoray account.
Assuming this is true, is that because the other accounts were banned? Or are you implying that you sold accounts via RMT, though not assets or ISK?
I have never sold accounts either.
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Mighty Dread
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.03.19 06:33:00 -
[62]
Well...When the game dynamics favors Evil...
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Kaaii
Caldari KaaiiNet Holding Executor Corp KAAII-NET
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Posted - 2011.03.19 09:33:00 -
[63]
Originally by: cosmoray I can confirm that I only have 1 account left. The Cosmoray account.
Because your reputation is stellar?
As for the topic, its just easier to be bad than good.
Some folks choose the easier path.
According to Oveur, existing LSAA's already anchored will stay there. kieron Director of Community Relations,
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Melbatoast Fondu
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Posted - 2011.03.19 09:43:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Kaaii
As for the topic, its just easier to be bad than good.
Some folks choose the easier path.
You look pretty easy. R U bad?
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moneykeeper
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Posted - 2011.03.19 10:55:00 -
[65]
There is no such things as 'good' and 'evil'. There are only actions and consequences. Can you show me a pound of evil? No, what most people mistake for 'good' is conditioning recieved by the society they grow up in.
The religious, socialists and other such do-gooders often lay claim to being in touch with some kind of cosmic, univeral morality. No such thing exists. People comply with rules only through fear or conditioning.
In Eve we get to come out from behind the mask society forces us to wear and are free to persue our own interests. This is a good thing for everyone except for squealing, weak minded fools.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2011.03.19 14:43:00 -
[66]
Originally by: moneykeeper People comply with rules only through fear or conditioning.
In Eve we get to come out from behind the mask society forces us to wear and are free to persue our own interests. This is a good thing for everyone except for squealing, weak minded fools.
Hasn't it occurred to you that certain rules might be mutually beneficial and followed for reasons of enlightened self-interest? Free riders or scammers are not some type of gloriously independent anarchic force - they are dependent and parasitic on the structures created by those who mutually consent to the rules.
This is not to imply that the rules have anything to do with good and evil. But the way people treat other people has a great deal to do with their character (which is the etymological root of the term 'ethics' but not the term 'morality').
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Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island
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Posted - 2011.03.19 17:13:00 -
[67]
According to the other thread, I am a sociopathic maniac, therefore I have no option other than to say " yes, it is. "
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Ramma Lamma DingDong
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Posted - 2011.03.19 17:35:00 -
[68]
Originally by: moneykeeper There is no such things as 'good' and 'evil'. There are only actions and consequences. Can you show me a pound of evil? No, what most people mistake for 'good' is conditioning recieved by the society they grow up in.
The religious, socialists and other such do-gooders often lay claim to being in touch with some kind of cosmic, univeral morality. No such thing exists. People comply with rules only through fear or conditioning.
In Eve we get to come out from behind the mask society forces us to wear and are free to persue our own interests. This is a good thing for everyone except for squealing, weak minded fools.
This is incorrect on so many levels and is a common rationalization used by sociopaths to rectify self-loathing resulting from their lack of higher level mental functions such as empathy. Simply put, they don't possess it so it must not exist. People that do possess it must be religious zealots or it has been forced into them because they are weak.
The truth is almost the opposite. Empathetic reactions occur in children as young as 9 months old. They are natural and necessary in a very Darwinian manner. They are also observed in lesser mammals and even in other animals (birds, octopi.) One could argue that society, religion, etc. is in fact, removing this natural reaction and creating sociopaths and it is they that are the "weak minded fools."
That's what I'd say if I gave a ****.
What I really mean is. It's like any other game, it's just way more pronounced in Eve. Internet nerds like to think they are bad asses so they roleplay pirates "YARG!" despots, and just love playing the bad guys. I mean it's all testosterone soaked chest thumping and at the end of the day, good fun.
Be a non-conformist, all your friends are doing it!
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Azelor Delaria
Caldari The Imperial Fedaykin
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Posted - 2011.03.19 18:54:00 -
[69]
And it's so easy when you're evil. This is the life, you see; The devil tips his hat to me! I do it all because I'm evil, And I do it all for free! ... Your tears are all the pay I'll ever need! ***** ***** ***** *****
"No OPLAN ever survives first contact with the enemy." |
maslikoII
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Posted - 2011.03.19 20:54:00 -
[70]
Edited by: maslikoII on 19/03/2011 20:55:13 As always,breaking something or stealing something scamming is always the easy road,this is the same with real life,ask anyone who has been a "real" crim and has learn't the lesson.I personally think these people weren't breast fed,and more likely have a lower IQ.There has been many studies done on this behavior in real life.When you also consider what the social controllers,have written about over the few hundred years,you basically are being played like a fiddle.What someone does in a game or in real life,says a lot about them.Maybe your wife isn't putting out,because you are lazy,or maybe you just cant get any,then come here to take out on day old players,and believe that you have accomplished some sort of challenge,and now your a winner.
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Chai Bora
Tempest Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.19 21:34:00 -
[71]
Originally by: maslikoII Edited by: maslikoII on 19/03/2011 20:57:07
As always,breaking something or stealing something scamming is always the easy road,this is the same with real life,ask anyone who has been a "real" crim and has learn't the lesson.I personally think these people weren't breast fed,and more likely have a lower IQ.There has been many studies done on this behavior in real life.When you also consider what the social controllers,have written about over the few hundred years,you are basically being played like a fiddle.What someone does in a game or in real life,says a lot about them.Maybe your wife isn't putting out,because you are lazy,or maybe you just cant get any,then come here to take out on day old players,and believe that you have accomplished some sort of challenge,and now your a winner.
But hey,i could be wrong,well you do what you can.....lol
Actually, mine puts out much more when I engage in cave-man-out-group-violence type behavior.
And once again: "There has been many studies done" has no content worth considering. Credible citations or STFU.
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Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island
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Posted - 2011.03.20 01:14:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Ramma Lamma DingDong
This is incorrect on so many levels and is a common rationalization used by sociopaths to rectify self-loathing resulting from their lack of higher level mental functions such as empathy.
If you think sociopaths are not capable of higher level mental functions (and if you believe empathy to be a higher level function), you need to stop posting and start taking psychology 101.
Damn man... you're so far off base you're not in the right country, let alone ballpark.
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Ehranavaar
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Posted - 2011.03.20 19:28:00 -
[73]
Originally by: moneykeeper
The religious, socialists and other such do-gooders often lay claim to being in touch with some kind of cosmic, univeral morality. No such thing exists. People comply with rules only through fear or conditioning.
if you follow the relevant research this does not appear to be the case. it seems some notion of "fair" is embedded in the genes of social creatures like apes and humans.
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Chai Bora
Tempest Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.20 19:39:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Ehranavaar if you follow the relevant research this does not appear to be the case. it seems some notion of "fair" is embedded in the genes of social creatures like apes and humans.
Finally!
Thank you.
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Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island
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Posted - 2011.03.20 22:59:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Chai Bora
Originally by: Ehranavaar if you follow the relevant research this does not appear to be the case. it seems some notion of "fair" is embedded in the genes of social creatures like apes and humans.
Finally!
Thank you.
[ citation needed ]
Also, nothing you can do within the rules stated by CCP is "unfair", there is a counter for everything.
It's just antisocial solo players that end up on the short end of the stick, because they have no friends to counter organized opponents with.
That seems perfectly fair to me.
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Chai Bora
Tempest Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.21 00:30:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Helicity Boson Also, nothing you can do within the rules stated by CCP is "unfair", there is a counter for everything.
It's just antisocial solo players that end up on the short end of the stick, because they have no friends to counter organized opponents with.
That seems perfectly fair to me.
I should have seen that coming ;) [Damn son, Helicity called you out -- wall of text]
Right. That's where I see this notion of "fairness" going within the context of EVE. Within the context of the game rules anything that can be done is "fair" but it might not match up with notions of "fairness" in practice. I'd make an analogy to The Law. By definition the laws ensure objective and "fair" dealings between people/organizations when there is some sort of conflict that needs to be mitigated but if you listen to people talk about decisions made... in say, divorce rulings... you'll catch a lot of debate about whether or not said decisions were in fact fair. So we have EVE where mechanics, the EULA & the occasional appeal to the GMs determining "fair" dealings. Obviously a quick look at forum posts shows that there's a good deal of debate as to whether or not these things are "fair" in the sense of practice. For those anti-social pilots grouping up might be a major incentive to deal with organized opponents and aside from those that aspire to awoxing and corp theft most probably don't deal too dishonestly with those they've chosen to group up with.
On the note of "fairness" as social trait, I'm hesitant to place it entirely in the camp of genetics. A lot of evolutionary biology stuff when applied to people makes me a bit itchy because I think it tends to discount cultural factors too much but that's my own leanings and I don't claim a monopoly on being right there. But on one side you have the game theorist types that talk about the evolution of cooperative strategies as a good strategy to ensure species survival (i.e. because particular genetic traits can continue regardless of which phenotypical expression of those genes happens to reproduce) and use that to explain why people might sacrifice themselves to save a group member that is not a close relative. Though it's a bit dated, Robert Axelrod's "Evolution of Cooperation" (1984) is a good example. Also Oliver Goodenough's 1995 " Mind Viruses: Culture, Evolution and the Puzzle of Altruism."
On the cultural side of things you can extrapolate ideas of 'fairness' through how conflict expressed and resolved in terms of social obligations from classic structural-functionalist works. For example: when there's a conflict between some members of a society you can look at who resolves the conflict and how other members form sides around the conflict (E. E. Evans-Pritchard's "Nuer" and "Witchcraft Among the Anasaze" are good examples, though there's some much more interesting stuff in there as well). For a more recent piece that deals with issues of fairness you could look at Anette Weiner's "Inalienable Possessions: The Paradox of Keeping While Giving" which is a response to Marcel Mauss's "The Gift" which goes back to Malinowski's take on the Trobriand Kula ring as a competitive form of exchange that actually solidifies cooperative bonds... any of Turner's works on the purpose of rituals will touch on this. Also there is a more recent article on the moral legibility of corruption in African societies (it's a resource distribution mechanism that gets grumbled and is hijacked by state structures but nonetheless does factor into reinforcing social cooperation through bonds and obligation) however I lost that paper and can't recall the authors name. And if you really want to get classic you can always go back to Bentham's "Principles of Morals and Legislation."
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Chai Bora
Tempest Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.21 00:35:00 -
[77]
The point being -- there's lots of research from several perspectives that point to "fairness" (though sometimes what is thought of is fair won't gel with the culturally dominant notions of fairness we're seeing here) and cooperation being a general rule in human groups.
What I mostly take exception to is people saying "There's research that proves that people who do bad things in video games are sociopaths." It sounds to me a lot like arguments we've seen before about peoples' tastes in music or entertainment (i.e. watching violent movies or playing GTA means you're a psycho-killer) ... to my knowledge there hasn't been any substantial research that shows this. So, yeah. Citations or it didn't happen.
Sorry for the wall of text.
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Alain Kinsella
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.03.21 07:26:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Chai Bora Whatever the moral character of EVE is, it's forming on top of game design (which I think favors skullduggery) and through group dynamics but it doesn't necessarily correlate to the real-life psychological make-up of players because as a game EVE has its own dynamic social landscape.
To everyone else: sorry for the wall of text -- be thankful I didn't really get into it.
BTW: the EVIL seems more fun.
Used to see these kinds of discussions all the time inSL (for the same reasons). Thanks for the explanations, its appreciated.
I still think there are reasonable motivators for staying 'good' within any game, and not just Eve. The first that comes to mind is having a RL job you really don't want to lose (through some twisted form of the 'Facebook effect'). For example, applying for CSM will 'out' your RL name, which can (in some cases) cause trouble outside the game.
Normally, I sidestep these discussions completely by just applying in games as my RL name. Started that in Uru (in all its forms), continued in There, and eventually did that in SL through the public IRC channel (where I used my normal Unix userid). This form of directness has its obvious drawbacks, so I decided not to do that here (unless I become a volunteer, then I may consider it).
If I'm one of the unique ones here through my attitude, that's fine to me. I *like* being different.
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BlackSparrowHawk
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Posted - 2011.03.21 13:50:00 -
[79]
Edited by: BlackSparrowHawk on 21/03/2011 13:53:45 Edited by: BlackSparrowHawk on 21/03/2011 13:53:12 Edited by: BlackSparrowHawk on 21/03/2011 13:52:30 Most, so called 'evil' people ingame are pussies in real life <fact>
by 'evil' i'm talking those who do things purely out of spite.
Psychological explanation is that they don't have the confidence to be spiteful in real life so they express their non-existing balls in an anonymous online game. In most cases people have more going for them in EVE than in their real life (talking about all you unemployed low lifes ;))
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Porto Betalt
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Posted - 2011.03.21 14:16:00 -
[80]
Meh, I think people need to stop dividing people into good or evil groups. There are no definite group a person belongs to, there are varying degrees of "honesty/goodness" if you want to call it that. As have been mentioned, EVE is a pvp game, both when it comes to ships shooting other ships and players winning over other players on the market or getting access to some corps assets and stealing (almost) everything. Is it "honourable" to buy out every item(in a certain category) on the market and relist it at a higher price, or buying lots of a item when it hits a low for "some" reason and selling again later? For most of the activities in EVE there has to be someone losing ISK for you to gain some.
Every individiual in the game just have to accept that not all of us play by the same rules/ethics, that doesnt mean that someone is a evil person, they just play the game differently. The only way for someone to avoid being on the losing side in this game, be it market or pew-pew pvp, is to accept that everyone in the end is out to enrich themselves somehow. Expect the worst possible scenario at all times and from everyone and you'll do ok.
People complaining about being scammed in EVE, failed the most basic lesson, trust noone.
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Porto Betalt
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Posted - 2011.03.21 14:27:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Ramma Lamma DingDong
Originally by: moneykeeper There is no such things as 'good' and 'evil'. There are only actions and consequences. Can you show me a pound of evil? No, what most people mistake for 'good' is conditioning recieved by the society they grow up in.
The religious, socialists and other such do-gooders often lay claim to being in touch with some kind of cosmic, univeral morality. No such thing exists. People comply with rules only through fear or conditioning.
In Eve we get to come out from behind the mask society forces us to wear and are free to persue our own interests. This is a good thing for everyone except for squealing, weak minded fools.
This is incorrect on so many levels and is a common rationalization used by sociopaths to rectify self-loathing resulting from their lack of higher level mental functions such as empathy. Simply put, they don't possess it so it must not exist. People that do possess it must be religious zealots or it has been forced into them because they are weak.
The truth is almost the opposite. Empathetic reactions occur in children as young as 9 months old. They are natural and necessary in a very Darwinian manner. They are also observed in lesser mammals and even in other animals (birds, octopi.) One could argue that society, religion, etc. is in fact, removing this natural reaction and creating sociopaths and it is they that are the "weak minded fools."
That's what I'd say if I gave a ****.
Well, in the real world there are actual consequences from your actions. People dont just pop up in the last hospital they visited if someone shoots them dead in the street. We have laws in most countries to discourage such actions from happening.
In Eve all we have lost is a couple of hours of grinding/a plex or two worth of stuff if we die, if we are scammed the same stuff there, the ISK we lost in game is pretty much "nothing" for us in the real world. No real reactions towards the people responsible for the "evil" doings except some minor security status loss etc.
I guess what im trying to say is that due to the lack of consequences to our victims and for ourselves, the threshold for doing something that would be a crime in the real world is so much lower for everyone.
Just my thoughts.
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Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island
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Posted - 2011.03.21 15:06:00 -
[82]
I really don't see why people start these enormous (and largely irrelevant) discussions on morality in a fictional world.
It's a rolepaying game. I am roleplaying a villainous cur.
In real life I've never stolen a thing, never purposefully harmed someone, and generally been a caring and giving person (often to my own detriment).
For any well-rounded person that is sound of mind, these two things are entirely separate. You have to be a real looney if you can't segregate a character you play from the person you are. It's absolutely the same as playing a villain on TV.
At least that's how it is for me, I'm sure there's some mental cases around (in both the carebear and pirate camps) that fail at distinguishing between the two things.
I rather think they are the exception rather than the rule; it's the same nonsense line of thinking as with FPS games vis-a-vis highschool shootings. If you listen too much to the uber-moralist nutcases; you'd believe every halo player is a ticking timebomb of highschool assassination waiting to happen.
It's absurd. Sick people may draw inspiration from game activities (or movies, or music, or even novels... catcher in the rye anyone?), games do not make sick people sick, they ARE sick and thus react in bizarre ways to media.
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Ehranavaar
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Posted - 2011.03.21 16:34:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Helicity Boson
Originally by: Chai Bora
Originally by: Ehranavaar if you follow the relevant research this does not appear to be the case. it seems some notion of "fair" is embedded in the genes of social creatures like apes and humans.
Finally!
Thank you.
[ citation needed ]
all of 60 seconds with google will start you down the road of exploration helicity.
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Ehranavaar
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Posted - 2011.03.21 16:43:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Helicity Boson Also, nothing you can do within the rules stated by CCP is "unfair", there is a counter for everything.
i think helicity you are confusing "legal" with "fair". just because ccp lets you do X does not make X right or fair just legal in the game.
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Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island
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Posted - 2011.03.21 17:09:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Ehranavaar
Originally by: Helicity Boson Also, nothing you can do within the rules stated by CCP is "unfair", there is a counter for everything.
i think helicity you are confusing "legal" with "fair". just because ccp lets you do X does not make X right or fair just legal in the game.
I'm not confusing anything. It's not unfair to gank someone that is jumping into lowsec solo, unscouted. Or to probe them in a mission and ransom them. It's not even unfair to suicide gank a hauler, or to steal billions and billions of isk from a corp with poorly arranged asset security.
All of the things I *personally* do can easily be countered by being more cautious, more clever, less lazy.
All these threads invariably boil down to this: There are bears that want absolute safety. They will never get it. It has nothing to do with "fair" it has everything to do with incorrect expectations of what EVE is about.
Don't play a sandbox pvp mmo if you think asymmetrical warfare is "unfair". Go play an instanced MMO where everyone is a hero.
The only things that are unfair in EVE are possibly random chance and using exploits.
Fair is not an objective thing, it's a subjective experience, and your views on what constitute fairness do not mesh with the nature of the game.
Simple as that. There is no point in arguing it even, the above is a fact as far as EVE is concerned.
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Nathan Jameson
Talocan Vanguard Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.03.21 17:54:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Helicity Boson Sick people may draw inspiration from game activities (or movies, or music, or even novels... catcher in the rye anyone?), games do not make sick people sick, they ARE sick and thus react in bizarre ways to media.
I came to this opinion as well after serving in combat arms in Iraq. The soldiers in my platoon who derived the most enjoyment from Manhunt and gunning down populations in GTA, for example, were the soldiers who'd already had issues to begin with. Such as killing their best friend IRL when they were 15, for example.
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Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
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Posted - 2011.03.21 18:22:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha BB you were an intelligent poster, your services good and comprehensive. Why did you have to thrash it all like that . For stupid Monopoly money none the less.
Don't cry, you nonsensical MDer. If not for Monopoly money and tears, why the hell not?
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fiizzzzzzy
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Posted - 2011.03.22 14:31:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Naya Sky
Originally by: Bad Bobby I have no more issue with being the pirate, murder or thief in EVE than I have with being on the Terrorist team in Counter-Strike. Morality doesn't come in to it.
CS game lasts a couple of minutes and EVE lasts quite a bit longer so it's not really much of a comparison.
But lets say that you are a part of a professional CS team and you and your friends work months or even years to improve your team to a point where you can win major tournaments together. And on that final and most important tournament you decide to go all crazy and shot your team-mates. It's just a game right?
yes it will ALWAYS be a game, if you cant see that get therapy
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Aydala
Minmatar Lonetrek Salvage and Scrap
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Posted - 2011.03.23 23:42:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Misty McGinnity its more fun having a "good" character & a bad one.
best of both worlds.
hence the reason I play this game....to grief. plain and simple.
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Ehranavaar
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Posted - 2011.03.24 16:16:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Helicity Boson
i think helicity you are confusing "legal" with "fair". just because ccp lets you do X does not make X right or fair just legal in the game.
I'm not confusing anything. It's not unfair to gank someone that is jumping into lowsec solo, unscouted. Or to probe them in a mission and ransom them. It's not even unfair to suicide gank a hauler, or to steal billions and billions of isk from a corp with poorly arranged asset security.
you appear to be deeply confused helicity. whether you can legally do someting or not has virtually nothing to do with the fairness of the act in question. nor does whether or not the act could have been prevented by the "victim" have much bearing on the ethical nature of the act.
for instance if you got mugged after cashing your paycheck and lost it all to villainy your feelings would be that it was "fair" as you could have left the money in the bank instead of carrying it with you thus preventing the viallainy? i'd be very surprised to find that was what you actually thought.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.03.24 17:09:00 -
[91]
Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 24/03/2011 17:33:35
Originally by: Helicity Boson I really don't see why people start these enormous (and largely irrelevant) discussions on morality in a fictional world.
It's a rolepaying game. I am roleplaying a villainous cur.
In real life I've never stolen a thing, never purposefully harmed someone, and generally been a caring and giving person (often to my own detriment).
For any well-rounded person that is sound of mind, these two things are entirely separate. You have to be a real looney if you can't segregate a character you play from the person you are. It's absolutely the same as playing a villain on TV.
At least that's how it is for me, I'm sure there's some mental cases around (in both the carebear and pirate camps) that fail at distinguishing between the two things.
I rather think they are the exception rather than the rule; it's the same nonsense line of thinking as with FPS games vis-a-vis highschool shootings. If you listen too much to the uber-moralist nutcases; you'd believe every halo player is a ticking timebomb of highschool assassination waiting to happen.
It's absurd. Sick people may draw inspiration from game activities (or movies, or music, or even novels... catcher in the rye anyone?), games do not make sick people sick, they ARE sick and thus react in bizarre ways to media.
I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that one of the main reasons you host Hulkageddon is to cause grief to other players (AKA collecting "tears"). That is, the real you, the person behind your online avatar "Helicity Boson", enjoys it when a real player (behind a different avatar) lashes out on you.
Now, I'm not suggesting that someone lashing out doesn't have issues of his own. BUT, I believe that you are also incapable of drawing the line between what's real and what's in-game. You think that you're leaving real life out of it when in fact you are not. No matter how you sugarcoat it, fact is you enjoy causing real people anger and frustration. And that you use a video game as a tool or medium to do it doesn't nullify the fact that it brings you (the real person behind Helicity Boson) pleasure in real life.
Now, that doesn't make you a murderer or a thief in real life. What I can say with certainty is that you are the type of person that enjoys causing frustration and anger on others, regardless of the medium being used. And I'm sure you have good reasons on why you wouldn't do this, say, at the office. But one reason it is not is that you find it to be ethically wrong in real life. You're already doing it in real life.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Tasha Baxter
Amarr Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2011.03.24 17:29:00 -
[92]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 24/03/2011 17:21:29
Originally by: Helicity Boson I really don't see why people start these enormous (and largely irrelevant) discussions on morality in a fictional world.
It's a rolepaying game. I am roleplaying a villainous cur.
In real life I've never stolen a thing, never purposefully harmed someone, and generally been a caring and giving person (often to my own detriment).
For any well-rounded person that is sound of mind, these two things are entirely separate. You have to be a real looney if you can't segregate a character you play from the person you are. It's absolutely the same as playing a villain on TV.
At least that's how it is for me, I'm sure there's some mental cases around (in both the carebear and pirate camps) that fail at distinguishing between the two things.
I rather think they are the exception rather than the rule; it's the same nonsense line of thinking as with FPS games vis-a-vis highschool shootings. If you listen too much to the uber-moralist nutcases; you'd believe every halo player is a ticking timebomb of highschool assassination waiting to happen.
It's absurd. Sick people may draw inspiration from game activities (or movies, or music, or even novels... catcher in the rye anyone?), games do not make sick people sick, they ARE sick and thus react in bizarre ways to media.
I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that one of the main reasons you host Hulkageddon is to cause grief to other players (AKA collecting "tears"). That is, the real you, the person behind your online avatar "Helicity Boson", enjoys it when a real player (behind a different avatar) lashes out on you.
Now, I'm not suggesting that someone lashing out doesn't have issues of his own. BUT, I believe that you are also incapable of drawing the line between what's real and what's in-game. You think that you're leaving real life out of it when in fact you are not. No matter how you sugarcoat it, fact is you enjoy causing real people anger and frustration. And that you use a video game as a tool or medium to do it doesn't nullify the fact that it brings you (the real person behind Helicity Boson) pleasure in real life.
Causing whining PVE heroes frustration is an pleasurable thing.
+ I don't really think people take the whole 'mmmm delicious tears' thing that seriously.
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Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island
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Posted - 2011.03.24 17:32:00 -
[93]
Originally by: MatrixSkye
I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that one of the main reasons you host Hulkageddon is to cause grief to other players (AKA collecting "tears"). That is, the real you, the person behind your online avatar "Helicity Boson", enjoys it when a real player (behind a different avatar) lashes out on you.
Now, I'm not suggesting that someone lashing out doesn't have issues of his own. BUT, I believe that you are also incapable of drawing the line between what's real and what's in-game. You think that you're leaving real life out of it when in fact you are not. And no matter how you sugarcoat it, fact is you enjoy causing real people anger and frustration. And that you use a video game as a tool or medium to do it doesn't nullify the fact that it brings you (the real person behind Helicity Boson) pleasure in real life.
You are, in fact, wrong.
Why do I host hulkageddon? Because it's fun to do, I make many of my friends in EVE very happy with an event they find enjoyable, I get both praise and infamy (the latter of which is good for a pirate character) and I get to demonstrate the nature of EVE in a visceral, immediate fashion.
The grief part (QQ) I, personally, just see as an entertaining side effect, which I can exploit for marketing purposes to draw in more participants who are keen on obtaining tears, as well as create even more publicity from the outcries of those who resent the event because of it.
As a wiser man than I once said: there is no such thing as bad publicity.
Do I laugh at terrible players QQing all over the place? Of course I do, if you saw some of the more outrageous stuff I get levelled at me (which I don't even post;- just report to the GMs) you'd laugh too. There is no greater bunch of psychos than the people that get SO MAD at a video game they feel the need to threaten my ACTUAL life.
It's funny because of the absurdity of it all. There is no reason to get mad over an EVE ship exploding, there just -isn't-.
Obviously I play the tears card for all it's worth as a marketing tool. Why wouldn't I? There is no drawbacks for me at all.
Whether or not it's a personal goal for me, the person? not really, I just enjoy my event and work hard to make it a success.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.03.24 17:43:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Tasha Baxter Causing whining PVE heroes frustration is an pleasurable thing.
But you see, that is not what is being discussed here. I believe without doubt that you enjoy "causing whining PVE heroes frustration". What I am bringing forth is whether the enjoyment of causing frustration to other people should be considered real or in-game. And I think the answer to that question is very obvious.
Quote: + I don't really think people take the whole 'mmmm delicious tears' thing that seriously.
You said it yourself: It brings you pleasure.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Frau Klaps
Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2011.03.24 17:51:00 -
[95]
Of course it's 'real', but destroying someone's internet spaceship then laughing at them in a game which encourages villany and betrayal is hardly akin to punching someone in the balls then teabagging them in real life.
Yes those are real players being griefed, I don't think griefing NPC's would be as much fun. ---
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Tasha Baxter
Amarr Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2011.03.24 17:54:00 -
[96]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Originally by: Tasha Baxter Causing whining PVE heroes frustration is an pleasurable thing.
But you see, that is not what is being discussed here. I believe without doubt that you enjoy "causing whining PVE heroes frustration". What I am bringing forth is whether the enjoyment of causing frustration to other people should be considered real or in-game. And I think the answer to that question is very obvious.
Quote: + I don't really think people take the whole 'mmmm delicious tears' thing that seriously.
You said it yourself: It brings you pleasure.
Finding it enjoyable=/=serious internet business?
Destroying someone's possessions literally isn't anywhere near similar to doing it in an MMO (that revolves around loss and struggle).
I'm not trying to portray myself as some hardcore griefer, ninja salvaging is about as far as I've gone (since my character is so young), but yes... Ninja'ing someone's mission and then have them hurl abuse at me and tell me how they'd love to kick my ass irl is extremely enjoyable.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.03.24 18:08:00 -
[97]
But I'm not saying that destroying someone's in-game possessions equates to punching them in the nuts.
My point is that you can't claim you don't enjoy causing someone malice in real life when you're already doing it in Eve. You can't chug it up to role-play or that it is your pirate avatar that enjoys grief play (or collecting "tears") and not the real person behind the character.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Frau Klaps
Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2011.03.24 18:21:00 -
[98]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 My point is that you can't claim you don't enjoy causing someone malice in real life when you're already doing it in Eve. You can't chug it up to role-play or that it is your pirate avatar that enjoys grief play (or collecting "tears") and not the real person behind the character.
I'm no griefer, certainly not 99% of the time anyway but if someone gets angry about something I have done in this game then I will happily laugh at them. Of course griefers are intentionally getting up in some poor players face, but they are still only messing with their videogame assets. The times it goes beyond the confines of the game is when it gets ropey, like that dude that got sacked from his job or the people who have their myspace/facebook pages hijacked.
At the end of the day, there are a lot of people that just love to be jerks. Same goes for argumentative sods hiding behind alts on the forums.
---
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Joran Dravius
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2011.03.24 21:34:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Joran Dravius on 24/03/2011 21:39:10
Originally by: cosmoray Are evil people in games, evil in real life
The author is an idiot. He argues that killing people who didn't consent to PvP is evil. That's a straw man because eve has no safe zones. You consent to PvP by installing the client. Non-consensual PvP can't be evil (or any other adjective) in an environment where there's no such thing as non-consensual PvP. That's as far as I got before I wanted to punch him IRL so I stopped reading at that point.
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Koronakesh
Amarr Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2011.03.25 01:28:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Azelor Delaria And it's so easy when you're evil. This is the life, you see; The devil tips his hat to me! I do it all because I'm evil, And I do it all for free! ... Your tears are all the pay I'll ever need!
It gets so lonely.... being evil What I'd do to see a smile Even for a little while And no one loves you when you're evil ... I'm lying through my teeth. Your tears are all the company I need!
This thread should've gone into the RP forum instead of C and P tbh.
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