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Michael J Fox	Posted - 2011.03.18 15:31:00 - [1] ...was fitted with the following: 1 x large trimark armor plate 1 x large trimark armor plate 1 x large trimark armor plate buffer tanks are partly the fault of the double hp buff of a few years ago, and partly the fault of rigs. nerf the buffer or improve the active, ill accept either. the current status quo makes for a huge yawnfest.
Lt Angus Caldari the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.03.18 15:36:00 - [2] add usefull dmg rigs and its all good Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers
Voogru Gallente Massive Damage	Posted - 2011.03.18 15:37:00 - [3] Yes. Nerf the buffer tank so that my 8x Tobias Tempest Tribal Issue insta-pops every type of battleship.
Michael J Fox	Posted - 2011.03.18 15:40:00 - [4] Originally by: Voogru Yes. Nerf the buffer tank so that my 8x Tobias Tempest Tribal Issue insta-pops every type of battleship. which given the huge investment in that ship would be fair enough i reckon.
Doddy Excidium.	Posted - 2011.03.18 15:49:00 - [5] The real issue is not the buffer, its the trimarks themselves. Trimarks should have a bigger drawback and/or use more calibration. Also capitals should not be able to use bs sized rigs, they should require extra-large. Why ccp made damage rigs 200 calibration (more on t2) with heavy fitting drawbacks while making tanking rigs 50 calibration for a minor speed/sig drawback (on ships who are already slow or massive sig thanks to tank) i will never know.
Medarr Amarr ZeroSec	Posted - 2011.03.18 15:55:00 - [6] are you serious?? No, NO, and NO.
Zyck Imminent Ruin Dirt Nap Squad.	Posted - 2011.03.18 15:57:00 - [7] If you make active tank much better it will become overpowered in PvE and very small scale PvP, but still be useless in anything bigger. The whole point of the buffer tank is to keep you from popping almost instantly during PvP, and even if you make the active tank 10x better it won't matter when you're dead before your rep cycles or when the 20 guys shooting you way out damage your local rep anyway. All you'd do by nerfing the buffer tank is make PvP combat a lot shorter and amount to who has the highest burst damage.
Goose99	Posted - 2011.03.18 16:05:00 - [8] Bring back the aoe torps. Barring that, bring back the nano.
Mister Smithington	Posted - 2011.03.18 18:42:00 - [9] Originally by: Michael J Fox the current status quo makes for a huge yawnfest. Buffer tanks are boring is hardly a sound thesis.
Louise Achura	Posted - 2011.03.18 19:47:00 - [10] I wish CCP would add a hp bonus to shield boosters & armour reps. Something like: small shield booster = 1/2 small extender, medium shield booster = 1/3 medium shield extender, large = 1/2 large shield extender, x-l = large shield extender. Same idea for the armour reps. The idea is to cut down the time it take to make fitting active boosters worthwhile, thou they still require the aditional cap and fitting reqs. shield amps may need a small resist/cap use bonus to be worth while (or a bonus to the hps given by the active booster perhapes).
Desert Ice78 Gryphon River Industries R-I-P	Posted - 2011.03.18 20:02:00 - [11] Edited by: Desert Ice78 on 18/03/2011 20:02:10 Originally by: Michael J Fox ...was fitted with the following: 1 x large trimark armor plate 1 x large trimark armor plate 1 x large trimark armor plate buffer tanks are partly the fault of the double hp buff of a few years ago, and partly the fault of rigs. nerf the buffer or improve the active, ill accept either. the current status quo makes for a huge yawnfest. So they got a buff a while ago, but why should we nerf the buffer tank now?
Banana Torres The Green Banana Corporation	Posted - 2011.03.18 21:02:00 - [12] I agree, the rise of buffer (or passive) tanks was, in my opinion, the major factor in making PvP the snoozefest it is today. But would players raised on easymode Drakes and Hurricanes be up to the job of managing the cap so that the guns and reps stay alive?
Alonzo Harris	Posted - 2011.03.18 21:21:00 - [13] Originally by: Banana Torres But would players raised on easymode Drakes and Hurricanes be up to the job of managing the cap so that the guns and reps stay alive? Nah, they'll just troll threads like this into oblivion as always, trying so hard to not make the game any more interesting or needing effort/thought.
Dorian Wylde	Posted - 2011.03.18 21:35:00 - [14] Originally by: Mister Smithington Originally by: Michael J Fox the current status quo makes for a huge yawnfest. Buffer tanks are boring is hardly a sound thesis. What is funnier is that while he thinks buffer tanks are boring, boosting active tanks, which means fights could start lasting a lot longer where you're just orbiting each other shooting and instantly repairing the damage for minutes on end is somehow better.
E man Industries	Posted - 2011.03.18 21:55:00 - [15] Edited by: E man Industries on 18/03/2011 21:55:57 Disagree with buffing active tanks as it would fubar pve. that said buffer is always always the better choice for pvp...this may need a change. also agree that damage mods need to be mroe practical. right now only 3 rigs commonly used CCC mods trimarks shield resistance or buffer's I also hate shield passive tanks...to many pluses and no real downsides. ______ Hello WoW players. Look at your toon, now back to me. Sadly it isn't me, but if it wasn't simplistic pre scripted linear mono dimensional game you could look like me. I'm in a Paladin
Naomi Wildfire Amarr Men Who Stare At Gates	Posted - 2011.03.18 22:33:00 - [16] Theres a pretty good balance in this, in some situations a buffer tank is superior over active reps and sometimes the active rep is superior. A buffer tank is often used in fleet fights or against other gangs to tank more DPS than a normal active tank could handle. Either you hope that you can minimize and kill your target in time, or you are ****ed. Biggest pro is that you dont need cap to tank. An active tank can tank a limited amount of DPS and often victorious in a 1 on 1 against a buffered ship. In some special setups, like the triple rep myrm, you can take on an equal amount of damage. That said, i dont see any kind of needed change.
Ephemeron Black Aces Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2011.03.18 22:44:00 - [17] Buffer tanking is significantly superior to active tanking in PvP. And the buffer rigs are the last big thing that pushed balance over the edge. Active tank rigs are not nearly as good, especially ones that increase cap/sec usage, as active tanking already has serious capacitor vulnerability. I believe that nerfing 15% buffer rigs to 10% (and t2 to 15%) would be a step in right direction. At same time, the idea of active rep giving small buffer bonus is actually pretty good one. Such as, large armor rep giving 1500 extra armor hp, and x-large shield booster giving extra 750 shield hp Because, active reps work better when there's a larger buffer, cause they have more time to boost before ship pops.
Naomi Wildfire Amarr Men Who Stare At Gates	Posted - 2011.03.18 23:00:00 - [18] you can always combine tanks, Armor buffer with a single active rep works well.
Aamrr	Posted - 2011.03.18 23:03:00 - [19] Well, you could start by stacking penalizing them. Right now, three trimarks give a 52.1% increase in hp. With stacking penalties, that'd be reduced to 47.9% That's a start, at least?
Blnukem 192 Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2011.03.18 23:09:00 - [20] Since we're all nerfing things, nerf speed and active tanks while you're at it. Originally by: CCP Navigator This is really not worthy of a thread.
Ephemeron Black Aces Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2011.03.18 23:15:00 - [21] Originally by: Blnukem 192 Since we're all nerfing things, nerf speed and active tanks while you're at it. Speed was already nerfed significantly a while back, in case you don't remember. buffer tanking has been getting nothing but boosts since the game started, continuously boosted active tanking was boosted mostly for shields, with introduction of greatly superior faction boosters, invulnerability fields, and Crystal set. Active armor tanking received much weaker boosts for some reason CCP believes that it's perfectly fine for high end shield tanking to be 2-3 times superior to high end armor tanking
Michael J Fox	Posted - 2011.03.19 00:28:00 - [22] Originally by: Blnukem 192 Since we're all nerfing things, nerf speed and active tanks while you're at it. as noted above this has been done: polycarbs used to be on everything then they swung the bat, active tanking is pretty much pointless within the modern pvp environment. idk, id just like to see what someone else said above - where you actually need to stay on top of cap and positioning as opposed to saying "my Geddon had 930k ehp"
Naomi Wildfire Amarr Men Who Stare At Gates	Posted - 2011.03.19 01:38:00 - [23] Quote: active tanking is pretty much pointless within the modern pvp environment. You have absolutely no clue

CCP Spitfire C C P C C P Alliance	Posted - 2011.03.19 07:56:00 - [24] Moved from 'EVE General Discussion'. Spitfire Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online

Antihrist Pripravnik 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.03.19 09:02:00 - [25] Originally by: Voogru Yes. Nerf the buffer tank so that my 8x Tobias Tempest Tribal Issue insta-pops every type of battleship. You don't need all that... Just a T2 fitted artie Maelstrom. In one word: nerf buffer = boost Minmatar and make them the only viable PvP race.
Fon Revedhort Monks of War DarkSide.	Posted - 2011.03.19 10:50:00 - [26] LSE and 1600mm plate should have their PG requirements at least doubled. Comparing plate of 800mm to 1600mm one has always made me giggle - what the hell, HP bonus is twice as big while PG needs increase merely by 2.5 times. Let's try applying the very same basis to armour reps and shield boosters then Don't even get me started on rigs. Those have been just FUBAR from the very introduction. Also the idea you can make PvP more fun by prolonging it is nothing but sheer nonsense. How about playing ut3 at 10% of its actual speed? Face-melting DPS and short fights will always give an edge to tactical moves for small-scale PvP - moves like splitting the enemy up work especially great. But CCP isn't that interested in giving players the opportunity to excel in skill. Everyone wants to think he's good at PvP and CCP wants to have the customers pleased, hence the pro-blob approach. P.S. boosting active tanks is a no-no solution. That's like dealing with plague by infecting all around you. Active tanks are fine, damage is fine. (E)HP values are messed up. ---[center] Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
Jim Tudeski	Posted - 2011.03.19 11:12:00 - [27] Originally by: Voogru Yes. Nerf the buffer tank so that my 8x Tobias Tempest Tribal Issue insta-pops every type of battleship. WTB that Tempest Tribal Issue. My EFT warrioring only gave me 19k Volley :( [Tempest Tribal Issue, ALPHA?!] Tobias' Modified Gyrostabilizer Tobias' Modified Gyrostabilizer Tobias' Modified Gyrostabilizer Tobias' Modified Gyrostabilizer Tobias' Modified Gyrostabilizer Tobias' Modified Gyrostabilizer Tobias' Modified Gyrostabilizer Cormack's Modified Tracking Computer Cormack's Modified Tracking Computer Cormack's Modified Tracking Computer Cormack's Modified Tracking Computer Cormack's Modified Tracking Computer Setele's Modified Tracking Computer Tobias' Modified 1400mm Howitzer Artillery, Domination EMP L Tobias' Modified 1400mm Howitzer Artillery, Domination EMP L Tobias' Modified 1400mm Howitzer Artillery, Domination EMP L Tobias' Modified 1400mm Howitzer Artillery, Domination EMP L Tobias' Modified 1400mm Howitzer Artillery, Domination EMP L Tobias' Modified 1400mm Howitzer Artillery, Domination EMP L Tobias' Modified 1400mm Howitzer Artillery, Domination EMP L Tobias' Modified 1400mm Howitzer Artillery, Domination EMP L Large Ancillary Current Router II [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] Originally by: Antihrist Pripravnik Originally by: Voogru Yes. Nerf the buffer tank so that my 8x Tobias Tempest Tribal Issue insta-pops every type of battleship. You don't need all that... Just a T2 fitted artie Maelstrom. In one word: nerf buffer = boost Minmatar and make them the only viable PvP race. Isn't that all they do anyway in the Northern Carebear fleets?
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.03.19 11:15:00 - [28] Originally by: Fon Revedhort Also the idea you can make PvP more fun by prolonging it is nothing but sheer nonsense. How about playing ut3 at 10% of its actual speed? Face-melting DPS and short fights will always give an edge to tactical moves for small-scale PvP - moves like splitting the enemy up work especially great. But CCP isn't that interested in giving players the opportunity to excel in skill. Everyone wants to think he's good at PvP and CCP wants to have the customers pleased, hence the pro-blob approach. Pretty much this. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.03.19 11:21:00 - [29] Edited by: Mr Kidd on 19/03/2011 11:22:50 I'm Gallente. The buffer tank is about all I have going for me in this game. So, if you want to nerf my buff, I'll raise you a passive shield tank nerf and a cap requirement for missile launchers.
Pod Amarr	Posted - 2011.03.19 11:28:00 - [30] Is it time to nerf buffer? Yes but lets not go crazy. First Slave implants remove their effects from capital class. 2nd 1600mm plate increase the fitting req. and mass penalty. 3rd people will hate me for this but redo rigs that you can fit only one per type. you could fit 1 extender and 1 shoeld hardening rig for each dmg type but the times of the triple trimarks or extenders are gone. With this limitation in place you could even buff the stats of these rigs. Also introduce XL rigs needed for capitals with NO trimarks or extender equivalent. Pod
Pod Amarr	Posted - 2011.03.19 11:31:00 - [31] Originally by: Mr Kidd Edited by: Mr Kidd on 19/03/2011 11:22:50 I'm Gallente. The buffer tank is about all I have going for me in this game. So, if you want to nerf my buff, I'll raise you a passive shield tank nerf and a cap requirement for missile launchers. If you think that you fail at flying gallente Pod
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2011.03.19 11:40:00 - [32] Between rigs and twin HP buffs is it any wonder that buffer tanks rule supreme? +50% to extender and plate fitting requirements. +300%-400% to local repair amount and cap-use. Makes local tank bursty enough to survive alphas, vulnerable to cap warfare and sustained damage. First things first though, null needs to have mechanics that does not unilaterally benefit blobbing to bring sub-capital numbers in any given engagement down a few notches.
Abaroth Charmar	Posted - 2011.03.19 13:20:00 - [33] You can only nerf the buffer tank after the endless fleets of Alpha 1400mm Mael/Baddon *****s have been nerfed. Otherwise, what's the point of logistics?
Fon Revedhort Monks of War DarkSide.	Posted - 2011.03.19 15:10:00 - [34] Yeah, it's quite funny actually: the sole reason they boosted aplha of arties was the amount of previous massive HP boosts. Cycle-jerking. I won't be suprised seeing them advocating for another HP boost since 1400mm Maels now clearly wtfbbqpwn everything in sight. ---[center] Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
1600 RT	Posted - 2011.03.19 18:42:00 - [35] tank rigs should be stack penalized and not stack buffed
HiRider Colonial Fleet Services Independent Faction	Posted - 2011.03.19 19:08:00 - [36] Originally by: Voogru Yes. Nerf the buffer tank so that my 8x Tobias Tempest Tribal Issue insta-pops every type of battleship. Dude, spread the wealth. .
Lhand	Posted - 2011.03.19 19:39:00 - [37] Buffer tanking is fine because 1) it's wasteful to use capacitor on an active tank in any fight, and lag means sometimes those tanks dont even activate 2) adding even more things to fights is a bad idea and just creates more lag 3) without good buffer, logistics ships are rendered useless. some may argue this a good thing, but you're better off nerfing logistics instead of buffers 4) if you think active tanking would be better in fights than buffer you've never been in a fight before
Wacktopia Dark Side Of The Womb	Posted - 2011.03.19 21:21:00 - [38] Edited by: Wacktopia on 19/03/2011 21:23:28 This is not a particularly well thought out proposition. Buffer tanks exist in this game ina reasonably balanced way between the two styles (shield and armor). That said you still really need slave implants to fully match an armor to shield buffer unless you're flying Amarr. Active tanking exists and serves two main purposes: 1) pve 2) solo/small pvp. Both exist in the game although the latter is an illusive art. Players like Kessah and Garmon have proved that it is totally possible to succeed using the existing active tank options. Even IF there were a good enough argument to nerf buffer tanks it should be balanced. Suggesting nerfing trimarks and 1600rt only is just plain dumb. Expecting an active tank to sustain monster dps is unreasonably dumb too. It smacks of "baw why can't I solo the blob"?
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.03.19 21:36:00 - [39] Originally by: Pod Amarr Originally by: Mr Kidd Edited by: Mr Kidd on 19/03/2011 11:22:50 I'm Gallente. The buffer tank is about all I have going for me in this game. So, if you want to nerf my buff, I'll raise you a passive shield tank nerf and a cap requirement for missile launchers. If you think that you fail at flying gallente Ok Mr. Amarrian, whatever you want. All I know is, at the time over a year ago, a friend and I sparred. With 3.6mil in hybrids, moderately mature drone skills and uber armor skills my friend's drake out tanked and out-dps'd my myrm. He had 1.8mil in missile skills and not quite uber shield skills. So, don't tell me there's isn't imbalance in favor of races not Gallente.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2011.03.19 22:35:00 - [40] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 19/03/2011 22:36:21 Originally by: Wacktopia This is not a particularly well thought out proposition. Buffer tanks exist in this game ina reasonably balanced way between the two styles (shield and armor). That said you still really need slave implants to fully match an armor to shield buffer unless you're flying Amarr. You cant really compare the two, and in fact on ships that are not Drakes you'll have severe trouble even remotely matching armor buffers that are not using slave implants with a shield buffer. With realistic fittings (tackle, propulsion), you'll be matching unrigged armor buffers with your shield buffer and thats it. But yea, you cannot compare the two at all, armor is supposed to have the edge in buffer, tackle (or sensor strength / cap stability) and signature while shield fittings enjoy a damage and mobility advantage.
Theodoric Darkwind Gallente	Posted - 2011.03.19 22:38:00 - [41] Originally by: Abaroth Charmar You can only nerf the buffer tank after the endless fleets of Alpha 1400mm Mael/Baddon *****s have been nerfed. Otherwise, what's the point of logistics? this pretty much, if you want to nerf buffer you need to nerf Arty and Beam alpha. nerfing buffer and logi without nerfing alpha would result in nullsec warfare being a contest of whos modules can get into the queue first through the lag because any ship would instapop. absolutely nothing short of dramatically limiting the number of ships that can be in a system will do anything to reduce blob warfare in null. Then again the huge blob vs blob battles aren't the issue there its the titan bridging in a 100+ blob on top of a single ship that should be nerfed out in null, nerfing that wouldn't stop blobbing but you would actually have to chase and hunt down said target rather than just lighting a cyno and instantly getting a blob on top of them.
Michael J Fox	Posted - 2011.03.19 23:07:00 - [42] i dunno, there are some good points here, i kind of started this discussion because im sick of seeing EFT pastes that end "trimark x 3". theres like a logic for me that says if something is used by everyone it is due a nerf or in better terms a rebalance. I wasnt arguing specifics im not really a game designer. I have always find that once a module, ship or fit in eve reaches a critical mass of over-use the balancing gets done anyway, i think it needs highlighting that that time is probably sooner rather than later. that said here are a few answers to replies: logistics are a good point. However they could use some work on their capability - perhaps a range of balancing dependant on the security of the space you are in. null sec battles in fairness do require a buffer however it should be noted that (1) lag is playing a part in this and (2) the constant production of capital class vessels could perhaps fill this gap? maybe lower ehp and improve agility for caps?
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2011.03.19 23:16:00 - [43] Originally by: Michael J Fox theres like a logic for me that says if something is used by everyone it is due a nerf or in better terms a rebalance. By that logic warp disruptors are due for a ~~nerf~~ rebalance. I'm not really sure we want to follow this logic and go there.
oldmanst4r Minmatar oldmanst4r's Corporation	Posted - 2011.03.19 23:49:00 - [44] Originally by: Abaroth Charmar You can only nerf the buffer tank after the endless fleets of Alpha 1400mm Mael/Baddon ***s have been nerfed. Otherwise, what's the point of logistics? This is slightly off-topic but I thought it was drakes that were overpowered, wait no, that was last month. This month its arty bs'es that are overpowered. Next month it'll be a-hacs then back to drakes then back to, back to, back to, back to, back to...... You mean people are actually thinking of counters to the current fotm, and that those counters WORK, and that people have to think up different counters to counter the counters, counter-counters to counter the counters, counter-counter counters to counter the counter-counters for ever and ever until the servers shut down??? Working as intended. Originally by:** CCP Shadow snip Castration successful. Shadow.
Millia Severasse	Posted - 2011.03.19 23:50:00 - [45] Edited by: Millia Severasse on 19/03/2011 23:50:57 Originally by: oldmanst4r Originally by: Abaroth Charmar You can only nerf the buffer tank after the endless fleets of Alpha 1400mm Mael/Baddon *****s have been nerfed. Otherwise, what's the point of logistics? This is slightly off-topic but I thought it was drakes that were overpowered, wait no, that was last month. This month its arty bs'es that are overpowered. Next month it'll be a-hacs then back to drakes then back to, back to, back to, back to, back to...... You mean people are actually thinking of counters to the current fotm, and that those counters WORK, and that people have to think up different counters to counter the counters, counter-counters to counter the counters, counter-counter counters to counter the counter-counters for ever and ever until the servers shut down??? Working as intended. Still waiting on hybrid turret ships to be fotm. Oh right they were and they got drastically rebalanced.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.03.19 23:56:00 - [46] Originally by: Millia Severasse Edited by: Millia Severasse on 19/03/2011 23:50:57 Originally by: oldmanst4r Originally by: Abaroth Charmar You can only nerf the buffer tank after the endless fleets of Alpha 1400mm Mael/Baddon *****s have been nerfed. Otherwise, what's the point of logistics? This is slightly off-topic but I thought it was drakes that were overpowered, wait no, that was last month. This month its arty bs'es that are overpowered. Next month it'll be a-hacs then back to drakes then back to, back to, back to, back to, back to...... You mean people are actually thinking of counters to the current fotm, and that those counters WORK, and that people have to think up different counters to counter the counters, counter-counters to counter the counters, counter-counter counters to counter the counter-counters for ever and ever until the servers shut down??? Working as intended. Still waiting on hybrid turret ships to be fotm. Oh right they were and they got drastically rebalanced. Remind me again how many years ago this was?
Millia Severasse	Posted - 2011.03.20 00:12:00 - [47] Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: Millia Severasse Edited by: Millia Severasse on 19/03/2011 23:50:57 Originally by: oldmanst4r Originally by: Abaroth Charmar You can only nerf the buffer tank after the endless fleets of Alpha 1400mm Mael/Baddon *****s have been nerfed. Otherwise, what's the point of logistics? This is slightly off-topic but I thought it was drakes that were overpowered, wait no, that was last month. This month its arty bs'es that are overpowered. Next month it'll be a-hacs then back to drakes then back to, back to, back to, back to, back to...... You mean people are actually thinking of counters to the current fotm, and that those counters WORK, and that people have to think up different counters to counter the counters, counter-counters to counter the counters, counter-counter counters to counter the counter-counters for ever and ever until the servers shut down??? Working as intended. Still waiting on hybrid turret ships to be fotm. Oh right they were and they got drastically rebalanced. Remind me again how many years ago this was? An eternity by blaster-toting friend. An eternity.
Michael J Fox	Posted - 2011.03.20 00:52:00 - [48] Originally by: oldmanst4r Working as intended. like nanos? blasterthrons? heavy drone eos? heavy drone myrm? nos domi? i could go on but i think the point is made: I would be prepared to bet fairly heavily that Gallente are next on the buff list for the same reasons - they are at a low ebb in terms of capability.
Sigras	Posted - 2011.03.20 01:04:00 - [49] I dont want to nerf buffer tanks, I do want it to be a choice as to what is fit to the ship in a PvP situation, as right now it isnt; even the hyperion which gets a 37.5% active tanking bonus is usually running a buffer tank. My current idea is to make the following changes. 50% PG reduction to armor repairers 300% increase in mass penalty for armor plates. 25% reduction in CPU usage of shield boosters 100% increase in CPU usage of shield extenders. This would at least make the player make a choice as to whether or not they want their ship to be able to warp off of a gate in less than a minute in the case of armor tanking and would ease the fitting problems that active tankers run into without changing the dynamic of buffer vs active tankers or making PvE unbalanced.
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.03.20 01:11:00 - [50] Slaves giving an active tanking bonus would be a start. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Sigras	Posted - 2011.03.20 01:48:00 - [51] Originally by: Val'Dore Slaves giving an active tanking bonus would be a start. see but I like the fact that there is a difference between the shield and the armor implants . . .
Straight Edged	Posted - 2011.03.20 02:09:00 - [52] Give a duration decrease bonus then. Still different, but the same thing. (compared to rep boost bonus)
Target Painter Minmatar	Posted - 2011.03.20 05:14:00 - [53] I just want Crystals to work with capital-class modules. 420 tank 3 Nyxes in my dread errday Other than that, this thread is a lot of hurf being blurfed by people on opposite spectrums of the PvP scale. Solo and small gang dudes want to be able to kill more stuff before the blob can land, the blob wants buffer so logistics can actually work and more skilled, better organized blobs prevail consistently.
Riley Moore Sentinum Research	Posted - 2011.03.20 05:33:00 - [54] How about giving active reps/boosters a raw hp bonus too, so active tankers get a bigger buffer so their cycles can actually mater. The bonus would ofc be slightly smaller then pure buffer modules. Also adjust the cycle time to half it is now, but dynamically so cap use and amount repped per min doesn't change. There, fixed.
Wacktopia Dark Side Of The Womb	Posted - 2011.03.20 08:23:00 - [55] Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 19/03/2011 22:36:21 Originally by: Wacktopia This is not a particularly well thought out proposition. Buffer tanks exist in this game ina reasonably balanced way between the two styles (shield and armor). That said you still really need slave implants to fully match an armor to shield buffer unless you're flying Amarr. You cant really compare the two, and in fact on ships that are not Drakes you'll have severe trouble even remotely matching armor buffers that are not using slave implants with a shield buffer. With realistic fittings (tackle, propulsion), you'll be matching unrigged armor buffers with your shield buffer and thats it. But yea, you cannot compare the two at all, armor is supposed to have the edge in buffer, tackle (or sensor strength / cap stability) and signature while shield fittings enjoy a damage and mobility advantage. I'm not comparing the two I am saying that they are balanced and you cannot focus on nerfing one and not the other. Shield tankers hate the sig bloat as much as armor tankers hate the speed and agility reduction. Id like to see some same-class fits where un rigged armor matches rigged shield buffer without implants or lol fit....
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2011.03.20 08:45:00 - [56] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 20/03/2011 08:51:16 Originally by: Wacktopia Id like to see some same-class fits where un rigged armor matches rigged shield buffer without implants or lol fit.... I'm not really sure if that is a trick question? It applies to plenty of buffer fits >frigs and <battleships that arent resist bonused with the hull, for example these: standard shield buffer Harbinger (~52k ehp) versus armor buffer Harbinger (~57k ehp unrigged) shield buffer Hurricane (~51k ehp) versus armor buffer Hurricane (~53k ehp unrigged) Rupture shield (~21k ehp) versus Rupture armor (~25k ehp unrigged with 1600mm, 19k ehp with 800mm unrigged) Thorax shield (~20k ehp) versus Thorax armor (20k eph with 800mm unrigged, 26k ehp with 1600mm unrigged and cant even fit triple trimarks) There are more, but the above come with standard cookie cutter fittings that leave little room for arguing this-module-over-that-one. Of course the respective shield buffers offer their very own advantages in mobility and dps projection that make up for the lack of damage soaking potential. Tbh, I see no reason to nerf either (or boost active tanks for that matter). People need to wrap their head around the fact that buffer will always be superior in fleet battles or small gang engagements, while active tanked fits tend to be superior in solo fights and pve.
Wacktopia Dark Side Of The Womb	Posted - 2011.03.20 08:56:00 - [57] Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 20/03/2011 08:48:38 Originally by: Wacktopia Id like to see some same-class fits where un rigged armor matches rigged shield buffer without implants or lol fit.... I'm not really sure if that is a trick question? It applies to plenty of buffer fits >frigs and <battleships that arent resist bonused with the hull, for example these: standard shield buffer Harbinger (~52k ehp) versus armor buffer Harbinger (~57k ehp unrigged) shield buffer Hurricane (~51k ehp) versus armor buffer Hurricane (~53k ehp unrigged) Rupture shield (~21k ehp) versus Rupture armor (~25k ehp unrigged with 1600mm, 19k ehp with 800mm unrigged) Thorax shield (~20k ehp) versus Thorax armor (20k eph with 800mm unrigged, 26k ehp with 1600mm unrigged and cant even fit triple trimarks) There are more, but the above come with standard cookie cutter fittings that leave little room for arguing this-module-over-that-one. Of course the respective shield buffers offer their very own advantages in mobility and dps projection that make up for the lack of damage soaking potential. No no no. You are comparing shield fits on typically armor boats. Of course they are lower! I said the same class meaning "BC" or "bs" not comparing an off-tank on the same ship. So compare your armor Harbi to shield Drake?
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2011.03.20 09:36:00 - [58] Originally by: Wacktopia No no no. You are comparing shield fits on typically armor boats. A Hurricane is by no means a typical armor tank, neither is the Rupture. What makes a 'typical' armor or shield tanker is having bonuses to the specific tanking type, e.g. a resist bonus or a repair amount bonus. Originally by: Wacktopia So compare your armor Harbi to shield Drake? Drake is resist bonused and a tier2 BC, so you'd actually have to compare the Ferox and Prophecy, or the Damnation and Vulture, if you want to stay true to your criteria.
Fon Revedhort Monks of War DarkSide.	Posted - 2011.03.20 10:01:00 - [59] Originally by: Omara Otawan Originally by: Michael J Fox theres like a logic for me that says if something is used by everyone it is due a nerf or in better terms a rebalance. By that logic warp disruptors are due for a ~~nerf~~ rebalance. I'm not really sure we want to follow this logic and go there. That's a primitive demagogy. First of all, point is a basic PvP module, you simply have no other means for PvP. Warp scramblers are used quite a lot as well. So, every module in this category is in active use (both warp disruptors and warp scramblers). Hence everying works just fine. On the other hand, most rigs are NOT used a lot, not even close. As already stated, only CCC, trimarks, shield-extenders and freaking purgers are seen quite often. And this surely doesn't happen just because you absolutely need to have those installed, but rather since other rigs are kind of weak and some are just pathetic. ---[center] Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
Wacktopia Dark Side Of The Womb	Posted - 2011.03.20 12:24:00 - [60] Originally by: Omara Otawan Originally by: Wacktopia No no no. You are comparing shield fits on typically armor boats. A Hurricane is by no means a typical armor tank, neither is the Rupture. What makes a 'typical' armor or shield tanker is having bonuses to the specific tanking type, e.g. a resist bonus or a repair amount bonus. Originally by: Wacktopia So compare your armor Harbi to shield Drake? Drake is resist bonused and a tier2 BC, so you'd actually have to compare the Ferox and Prophecy, or the Damnation and Vulture, if you want to stay true to your criteria. By 'typically' I was referring to the larger number of slots available between mid and low. So the most logical way to tank most ships is to the slot they have most of unless the ship has a bonus otherwise. That said you still see shield hyperions, ECM drakes etc so even a ship bonus does not have to dictate tank. My point over your original fits is that you will have more slots available for the armor tank version and hence it is higher - the shield cane and thorax and rupture all give up tank for gank. I agree with you that comparing un bonused would be clearer. Let's leave the specific ships out of it then... What about we say you have 3 slots to fit armor or shield tank. On the armor you go 1600, dcu, EANM and on the shield you go 2x LSE and an invul. Quite similar fitting, ok not exact but in the same ball park. How do the buffers compare?
Pod Amarr	Posted - 2011.03.20 12:26:00 - [61] Originally by: Mr Kidd Originally by: Pod Amarr Originally by: Mr Kidd Edited by: Mr Kidd on 19/03/2011 11:22:50 I'm Gallente. The buffer tank is about all I have going for me in this game. So, if you want to nerf my buff, I'll raise you a passive shield tank nerf and a cap requirement for missile launchers. If you think that you fail at flying gallente Ok Mr. Amarrian, whatever you want. All I know is, at the time over a year ago, a friend and I sparred. With 3.6mil in hybrids, moderately mature drone skills and uber armor skills my friend's drake out tanked and out-dps'd my myrm. He had 1.8mil in missile skills and not quite uber shield skills. So, don't tell me there's isn't imbalance in favor of races not Gallente. Gallente have problems but it is not with their Drone boats. Actually a Myrmidon would be the only Battle-cruiser I would think twice about engaging it in my Drake. At low sp situation you mentioned you might get that impression since Drake is very effective with low SP investment. But in skilled player situation my money would probably go on the Myrmidon in a one on one against a Drake. But this is off topic for tis thread Pod
Dizeezer Velar Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees	Posted - 2011.03.21 14:28:00 - [62] Horrible idea. Do not nerf. What's wrong with having some hit points so fights last 30 seconds instead of 15?
Noisrevbus	Posted - 2011.03.21 15:14:00 - [63] My biggest problem with the whole thing is that: i have now read 3 pages of this thread, and i've yet to see a sound argument of why this change should be done. No one propagating for the change have given any explanation of what they wish to achieve with it. Change 'this' because it's better than 'that' is a very poor basis for either forum discussion or game design. With all things relative, the likelyhood an adjustment to your complaints changing nothing is pretty damn high. Are we seriously having this topic because you want to see more variety in rigs used? It feels more like some people are incredibly naive and think a buffer drop would magically solve the domination of blob mindset. I highly doubt it would.
Sigras	Posted - 2011.03.21 20:48:00 - [64] Originally by: Noisrevbus My biggest problem with the whole thing is that: i have now read 3 pages of this thread, and i've yet to see a sound argument of why this change should be done. No one propagating for the change have given any explanation of what they wish to achieve with it. Change 'this' because it's better than 'that' is a very poor basis for either forum discussion or game design. With all things relative, the likelyhood an adjustment to your complaints changing nothing is pretty damn high. Are we seriously having this topic because you want to see more variety in rigs used? It feels more like some people are incredibly naive and think a buffer drop would magically solve the domination of blob mindset. I highly doubt it would. Here's my reason for wanting a change I want a choice to have to be made when fitting a ship, right now its a very simple algorithm if ShipIsForPvP = yes { BufferTank = Yes } Its just that simple, I mean yes there are few cases where you would active tank something, but in >90% of situations the decision is already made for you. Buffer tanks have so many advantages They're easier to fit They take less cap They're the same effectiveness no-matter how much DPS is incoming They're lag proof (dont have to be turned on) For all these advantages I want some serious drawbacks like I posted before 50% PG reduction to armor repairers. 300% increase in mass penalty for armor plates. 25% reduction in CPU usage of shield boosters. 50% increase in CPU usage of shield extenders.
Vixisti Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2011.03.21 22:22:00 - [65] Amazing how many people in this thread assume that people only fly bs's..... Also ideas like add 50% to fitting req's etc are just stupid. Eve is a finely balanced game always on the verge of making an unused ship or new FOTM so in a game where 2% is a LOT you might start your nerf 'ideas' a little more realistically.
freshspree	Posted - 2011.03.22 00:21:00 - [66] Why not leave them the fu ck alone?
Hiroshima Jita	Posted - 2011.03.22 00:39:00 - [67] +1 buff non tanky rigs so there is an element of choice and personal taste to rig selection instead of being mandatory tank slots +1 screw nerfs whose motivation is 'because we feel like it' with no logic behind them Shield Hurricane -> 6 tank slots = DC + 2 midslots + 3 rig slots Armor Hurricane -> 7 tank slots = DC + 3 other lowslots + 3 rig slots Considering the advantages of shield tanking and the difference only being one slot (when your armor and shield fits both have 2 gyros for the same damage + web instead of tracking enhancer) The hurricane isn't naturally an armor tanker or a shield tanker. It can do both although I prefer the cane for shield and the harby for armor. The other big problem is that tank rigs aren't stacking penalized against **** already on the ship while pretty much every other useful rig is.
Katherine Starlight	Posted - 2011.03.22 01:59:00 - [68] Edited by: Katherine Starlight on 22/03/2011 02:00:10 Please do tell how an active papertank lasts in a regular fleetbattle. The hamsters cries out in pain every decent engagement resulting in modules not cycling, modules such as Armor repairers. Upgrade **** hardware / fix server side code > nerf things Active tanks dont work in fleetfights cause the clusters wont let them cycle.
Aznwithbeard Minmatar OMGROFLSTOMP	Posted - 2011.03.22 03:00:00 - [69] to the OP and anyone agreeing with him, active > buffer/passive 9 out of ten times. TBH only BC I wouldnt duel in my myrm/cyclone was a properly set up hurricane, and thats only because of the neuts. Buffer is fine, active is fine, tho I do support the whole "pirate implants not working on capital class ships" thing. Guns don't kill people. onowait.
Doug Drafto	Posted - 2011.03.22 07:42:00 - [70] Passive/buffer shield tanks need to be nerfed. Nerfing armor buffer tanks is basically nerfing Gallente which is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Gallente is already such a **** race to fly they really don't need any more nerfing. The nano nerf really just further nerfed them. Minmatar is still fast, with autocannon Vagabonds are hitting at 20km out, and they have huge shields and warp instantly. The penalty? +25 sig radius... lol really? Try flying a cruiser size ship with a 1600mm plate on where you can only hit up to 4km with webifiers that only slow 60% and a high likely hood you will be scrambled and thus your MWD will no longer work. Oh yeah, and you have no cap at all from running the MWD for hours to get there and the power hungry guns. Nerf passive shield tanking. Leave passive armor tanks alone. Fix gallente for heavens sake.
Korg Tronix The Mabinogion	Posted - 2011.03.22 09:33:00 - [71] Originally by: Doug Drafto Passive/buffer shield tanks need to be nerfed. Nerfing armor buffer tanks is basically nerfing Gallente which is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Gallente is already such a **** race to fly they really don't need any more nerfing. The nano nerf really just further nerfed them. Minmatar is still fast, with autocannon Vagabonds are hitting at 20km out, and they have huge shields and warp instantly. The penalty? +25 sig radius... lol really? Try flying a cruiser size ship with a 1600mm plate on where you can only hit up to 4km with webifiers that only slow 60% and a high likely hood you will be scrambled and thus your MWD will no longer work. Oh yeah, and you have no cap at all from running the MWD for hours to get there and the power hungry guns. Nerf passive shield tanking. Leave passive armor tanks alone. Fix gallente for heavens sake. Sorry did you just say that Vagabonds have HUGE shields. Have you ever actually flown one? Also a buff to active tanking would actually improve gallente a bit as they are meant to active tank. That being said I think the current mechanics around buffer and active are fine and the main reason people dont like flying active is due to it not doing anything to save you when the blob lands, well that and the fact everyone fills utility highs with neuts.
Doug Drafto	Posted - 2011.03.22 14:43:00 - [72] I agree a buff to active armour tanking would help Gallente out some. I meant with an extender. You get 2.6k+ shields for 25 sig... thats ridiculous trade off, the first one is basically penalty free.
Korg Tronix The Mabinogion	Posted - 2011.03.22 14:58:00 - [73] Originally by: Doug Drafto I agree a buff to active armour tanking would help Gallente out some. I meant with an extender. You get 2.6k+ shields for 25 sig... thats ridiculous trade off, the first one is basically penalty free. While I agree the sig penalty isnt alot, shield extenders on a vaga are hardly penalty free. It still comes with all the drawbacks (not alot) of shield tanks namely lack of tank or cap utility (boosters). The tank on a Vaga though is speed if he is scrammed he is dead as his shield tank sucks balls.
Silas Shaw Coffee Hub	Posted - 2011.03.22 20:05:00 - [74] (I realize that this is a troll thread, as so many seem to have missed, but I'll play anyway.) Bombers vote for active tanks! No buffer, no problem!
Batelle do you	Posted - 2011.03.22 21:40:00 - [75] I'm only unhappy that the gallente BC's end up with a bonus that is so often useless unless you're dropping exile and fighting in very limited circumstances. EC-P8R... You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.
praznimrak Gallente Level Up	Posted - 2011.03.23 00:03:00 - [76] Edited by: praznimrak on 23/03/2011 00:03:34 Hmmm... This is all wrong.Eve is so complex so there is no real solution to this problem.Nerf that,boost this...i mean the game is FULL of ships and moduls that are not being used cose thay are patethic and person using it woud just end up losing ship real fast.And saying that most of pvp fights just hapends too fast,ther is no time to think a lot and do real strategi,and after some time playing you know so easly all ships fitings and so on. I did dedicate to frigs pvp and most of the fights ,and i hade more less 1000, hapends so fast that for a person not playing eve and watching me fighting only one question comes out to his mind"what was that,was that a fight??"... Pasiv,activ,rigs or not,ships and moduls not being used,unbalance...game cry for improvments but meanwhile we all fly the ship that works and moduls that will make us live and right now pasiv tanks work well so keep on till ccp Balance(read unbalance) some other part of game and make some other ships awsom and actual one crap.... Praz
Aglais Caldari	Posted - 2011.03.23 01:57:00 - [77] Nerf buffer tanks so that everything dies in a fire against Curses and Pilgrims. "But cap booster charges." they run out. I absolutely refuse to put a shield booster on my Gila. Or Drake.
AstarothPrime	Posted - 2011.03.23 12:24:00 - [78] Edited by: AstarothPrime on 23/03/2011 12:24:43 Originally by: Pod Amarr At low sp situation you mentioned you might get that impression since Drake is very effective with low SP investment. But in skilled player situation my money would probably go on the Myrmidon in a one on one against a Drake. But this is off topic for tis thread All lev 5 skilled drake pilot (im almost there) has a beast which does 750 DPS kinetic + drones, close to 80k EHP no holes, and even heals passively as if u had med rep II turned on... along with FULL tackle (point + web) fit Regards I. Bottom line - buffer shield is great because of passive recharge. - buffer armor is great because its MASSIVE End of story
fkingfurious	Posted - 2011.03.23 12:39:00 - [79] Anyone advocating this change has clearly never been in an actual fleet fight. In a fleet fight buffer is all that matters because there is no possible way an active tank can keep you alive for more than a few seconds in the face of the often tens of thousands of DPS potentially being aimed at you. In a situation like that an armor repper could have ZERO fitting requirements and you still wouldn't fit them. Only if an active tank could generate more HP in basically a single cycle than an entire buffer tank provides would it actually be practical and even then only if you lived long enough for the reppers to actually cycle which in a big fight is unlikely. On the other end of the scale however (very small scale) active tanking would be a good choice and here I agree that because of various factors actually fitting one is GENERALLY (there are exceptions) more hassle than its worth so peope don't bother. At this end of the scale there are adjustments that could be made but a buffer nerf isnt the answer.
Nominh Ehre	Posted - 2011.03.23 13:09:00 - [80] So your logic is: That since buffer tank seems to be used more than active tank in pvp, something is wrong with..buffer tank? Get a clue, please.
Pinky Denmark The Cursed Navy Important Internet Spaceship League	Posted - 2011.03.23 13:26:00 - [81] Buffer fits are fine - it's the active tanks that need a boost instead... - I'm a nice guy!! But plz hook me up with some pew pew...
Diesel47	Posted - 2011.03.23 13:40:00 - [82] Add more dedicated shield active tanking ships. The only ones I can think of are Hawk, Cyclone, Maelstorm, and Sleip... Three of them being minnitard.
Korg Tronix The Mabinogion	Posted - 2011.03.23 13:45:00 - [83] Originally by: Diesel47 Add more dedicated shield active tanking ships. The only ones I can think of are Hawk, Cyclone, Maelstorm, and Sleip... Three of them being minnitard. Any of the ships with resist bonuses active tank nearly as well as the boost amount bonused ones.

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