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Is there a decrease in the popularity of Gallente ships?

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AristotleOnassis	Posted - 2011.03.22 14:35:00 - [151] i rather a real problem is fixed (cruise missiles) COmpared to ccp wasting time on a non existing problem (fotm mentality). which is the only reason X ship is overpowered
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.03.22 14:44:00 - [152] Edited by: Tippia on 22/03/2011 14:45:11 Originally by: AristotleOnassis i rather a real problem is fixed (cruise missiles) So go make a thread about it (and show what's actually wrong). Good luck proving that the most popular and most used weapon system in the game has problems. Quote: COmpared to ccp wasting time on a non existing problem (fotm mentality). Yes, wasting time cruise missiles ù a weapon type that's used by 7 ships in the game (again: fewer than the number of ships that provide bonuses to tractor beams) ù would be bad when they could focus on a weapon system that's been languishing for coming up on three years now and which is used by 20% of the ships in the game. If you want to counter the argument put forth previously, do so. Saying "it's fine" is not an argument ù it's actually the complete lack of one and only further proves you are trolling. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
zkbzkbzkb	Posted - 2011.03.22 15:13:00 - [153] A big part of the problem is just how opp hellcat fleets are. Abaddon has too much hp and could do with being made to tier 2 bs with the golden banana getting a hp and fiting boost to go up to tier 3, remote reps in general could do with a nerf as soon as you get more than 2 they are freakingly opp especially with top tier resist bonus ships (and yet the rokh still remains pants), and finally large scorch need a great whack with the nerf bat. I've tried to think up a way to make hybrids more unique and better balanced and came up with: All Hybrid optimal ranges +50% All Hybred Tracking +30% - for rails still lower than beams but easier to hit while zipping about, blasters tend to suffer with extreme tracking changes duue to the short ranges, but every little helps. Large Hybrid Falloff û25% Falloff to prevent imbalance with autocannons. Double Damage * 1.05%, Half Rate of fire. - Twice the alpha of lasers but still half that of projectiles. Ammo is taken directly from the cargo bay û no clips û no reload û instant ammo change. Turrets give a ûx% capacitor size for each turret added (around 4.5% imo for -30% ish capacitor size for 8 turrets, -15% ish for 4 turrets etc). Hybrids require a certain amount amout of cap to fire however no cap is used when firing. Instead of the current: Is there x % cap? If so cap = cap û x, now fire. Now the server just asks: Is there x amount of capacitor left? If so fire. This way hybreds are still vunerable to cap warfare and do come with a cap cost but will no longer will cap you out by themselves. Ammo divided into Gallente with a slight therm empassis and tracking bonusÆs, and caldari with ken bias and a cap bonus to help with their active tanks ( you get a couple of cap each time you guns fire, nothing much, but helps say if your shooting a pos and want your resist mods on).
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.03.22 15:51:00 - [154] Originally by: Korg Tronix Originally by: Seraph IX Basarab The fact that hybrids are and Gallente ships in general are so low in the top 20 is easily an indicator that there is an issue. I don't know why people are arguing this. If that is not the case why to the stats say other wise? That top 20 means very little in the balance of things as they are based around fleet fights, and as far I know in the 3 years (ish) I have played, Gallente have never really been sought after for fleets. They have always been sold to me as a solo/small gang race like minmatar. Amarr and Caldari being the fleet races. TBH I'm not sure which top 20 list people are using for these comparisons, so I just grabbed whatever was on evekill, please let me know if these rankings seem off: Now the top 2 weapons used are the 1400 and HM, both t2 ofc. This admittedly is most likely caused by large fleet fights. But what about the other weapons? Some good examples being: 425mm AC II, ranked third Mega pulse II, ranked fourth 220mm AC II, fifth 200mm AC II, 7th Heavy pulse II, 8th 150mm AC II, 9th And beyond that it seems to be a mix of fleet and small gang weapons. (taken from here ) If this list really was purely an indication of what gets used in big fights than why are so many smaller (and more importantly close ranged) weapons sitting near the top?
Korg Tronix The Mabinogion	Posted - 2011.03.22 16:03:00 - [155] Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: Korg Tronix Originally by: Seraph IX Basarab The fact that hybrids are and Gallente ships in general are so low in the top 20 is easily an indicator that there is an issue. I don't know why people are arguing this. If that is not the case why to the stats say other wise? That top 20 means very little in the balance of things as they are based around fleet fights, and as far I know in the 3 years (ish) I have played, Gallente have never really been sought after for fleets. They have always been sold to me as a solo/small gang race like minmatar. Amarr and Caldari being the fleet races. TBH I'm not sure which top 20 list people are using for these comparisons, so I just grabbed whatever was on evekill, please let me know if these rankings seem off: Now the top 2 weapons used are the 1400 and HM, both t2 ofc. This admittedly is most likely caused by large fleet fights. But what about the other weapons? Some good examples being: 425mm AC II, ranked third Mega pulse II, ranked fourth 220mm AC II, fifth 200mm AC II, 7th Heavy pulse II, 8th 150mm AC II, 9th And beyond that it seems to be a mix of fleet and small gang weapons. (taken from here ) If this list really was purely an indication of what gets used in big fights than why are so many smaller (and more importantly close ranged) weapons sitting near the top? I was talking about the ship versions, as they are all generally popular in the mid to large size alliance fleets (haven't seen the list in a while but they were mostly last time I looked) but to be honest those sort of stats aren't accurate enough to base assumptions on or talk about balance from. However I do want a boost to Hybrids, I was just pointing out that although that is one set of stats, it isnt the most accurate to pull from.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.03.22 16:08:00 - [156] Originally by: Korg Tronix I was talking about the ship versions, as they are all generally popular in the mid to large size alliance fleets (haven't seen the list in a while but they were mostly last time I looked) but to be honest those sort of stats aren't accurate enough to base assumptions on or talk about balance from. However I do want a boost to Hybrids, I was just pointing out that although that is one set of stats, it isnt the most accurate to pull from. My point is WHY is it not an accurate set of stats to use? The weapons ranked on that list suggest that smaller gang pvp is also represented by looking at weapons commonly used, so what makes such a list inaccurate?
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2011.03.22 16:12:00 - [157] Originally by: Cambarus 425mm AC II, ranked third Mega pulse II, ranked fourth 220mm AC II, fifth 200mm AC II, 7th Heavy pulse II, 8th 150mm AC II, 9th And beyond that it seems to be a mix of fleet and small gang weapons. (taken from here ) If this list really was purely an indication of what gets used in big fights than why are so many smaller (and more importantly close ranged) weapons sitting near the top? Because with Scorch, Barrage and TEs, they're not really close-range weapons any more, at a guess. They're mid-range weapons that also work almost as well as blasters in blasters' domain.
Korg Tronix The Mabinogion	Posted - 2011.03.22 16:20:00 - [158] Edited by: Korg Tronix on 22/03/2011 16:21:32 Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: Korg Tronix I was talking about the ship versions, as they are all generally popular in the mid to large size alliance fleets (haven't seen the list in a while but they were mostly last time I looked) but to be honest those sort of stats aren't accurate enough to base assumptions on or talk about balance from. However I do want a boost to Hybrids, I was just pointing out that although that is one set of stats, it isnt the most accurate to pull from. My point is WHY is it not an accurate set of stats to use? The weapons ranked on that list suggest that smaller gang pvp is also represented by looking at weapons commonly used, so what makes such a list inaccurate? Neither top 20 gives a particularly good picture of the area of pvp where Blasters were traditionally used or designed for ie. small gang or solo as they include kills that blasters would never have been used in anyway for example large fleets. The 'short range' weapons included on that list are used alot in nano gangs and largish gangs run by some alliances as well. I suppose having thought about it, it does show how crap rails are though as the top 20s are more of a picture of large fleets yet no rail boat is in the top 20 and only one type of rails are in the weapons list. The main flaw with that top 20 is that I believe its calculated using numbers of mails so if one abaddon kill for example has 20 drakes on it, it will get counted 20 times.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.03.22 16:26:00 - [159] Originally by: Gypsio III Because with Scorch, Barrage and TEs, they're not really close-range weapons any more, at a guess. They're mid-range weapons that also work almost as well as blasters in blasters' domain. What does that have to do with it? They're not short range in the same sense that blasters are, but they're still short range, and not nearly as popular for fleet fights. Look at the 200mm AC, are there even ships other than the vaga that fit those? Vagas aren't exactly known for their stellar fleet performances. And not one, but TWO small ACs in the top 10. So I ask again, if the list seems to show weapons that aren't often used in fleets, that means that smaller gang pvp is also being represented, and if this is the case, why not look at that list to see which ships might need some tweaking? It may not be perfect, but it's seems to be reasonably accurate, at least as much as all the people providing anecdotal evidence to support their claims.
Jame Jarl Retief	Posted - 2011.03.22 16:46:00 - [160] Edited by: Jame Jarl Retief on 22/03/2011 16:46:43 Originally by: Korg Tronix The main flaw with that top 20 is that I believe its calculated using numbers of mails so if one abaddon kill for example has 20 drakes on it, it will get counted 20 times. Does it make much of a difference? Because an Abaddon kill with 20 Myrmidons in it would also be counted 20 times.

Spit Chew	Posted - 2011.03.22 17:06:00 - [161] Originally by: Jame Jarl Retief Edited by: Jame Jarl Retief on 22/03/2011 16:46:43 Originally by: Korg Tronix The main flaw with that top 20 is that I believe its calculated using numbers of mails so if one abaddon kill for example has 20 drakes on it, it will get counted 20 times. Does it make much of a difference? Because an Abaddon kill with 20 Myrmidons in it would also be counted 20 times. I think his point was weapon systems with a long range like HM will get on more mails repeatedly simply due to their range. But, you're both right to some extent as that range is what makes them more effective weapons to begin with. There may be a lot of drakes being counted repeatedly, distorting their representation a bit, meaning projectiles are still far and away the more popular weapon system (in theory).
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.03.22 17:19:00 - [162] Originally by: Spit Chew Originally by: Jame Jarl Retief Edited by: Jame Jarl Retief on 22/03/2011 16:46:43 Originally by: Korg Tronix The main flaw with that top 20 is that I believe its calculated using numbers of mails so if one abaddon kill for example has 20 drakes on it, it will get counted 20 times. Does it make much of a difference? Because an Abaddon kill with 20 Myrmidons in it would also be counted 20 times. I think his point was weapon systems with a long range like HM will get on more mails repeatedly simply due to their range. But, you're both right to some extent as that range is what makes them more effective weapons to begin with. There may be a lot of drakes being counted repeatedly, distorting their representation a bit, meaning projectiles are still far and away the more popular weapon system (in theory). I guess nobody reads the QENs. Drakes are really popular. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
Hiroshima Jita	Posted - 2011.03.22 17:29:00 - [163] It does make a difference, it favors fleet fights and fleet ships. That said here are some interesting stats that would represent balance better. The same thing as Eve-Kill's top 20 but only counting the ship/weapon system that got highest damage. Each kill would contribute only once to the top ships and weapons list. Then do it for kills that don't have more than 5 guys which constitutes pretty small gangs without being totally restrictive. Im pretty sure this would show a big deficit for gallente. Minmatar were once considered the small gang roaming ships. They were fast and tended to have decent dps at the expense of EHP and that was it. Minmatar are no longer the small gang race. They still do very well in solo and roaming gang situations but they also now have a decent sized niche in fleet combat. Funny thing is I'm minmatar specced player who remembers when minmatar was only ok. I kinda miss that time because I wasn't the hurricane pilot in the swarm of other hurricane pilots, I was THE hurricane pilot.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.03.22 17:56:00 - [164] Just some further stats in relation to what gets used and how muchà There are 59 ships in the game that give bonuses to missiles.¦ There are 55 ships that give bonuses to hybrids. There are 41 ships that give bonuses to projectiles. There are 37 ships that give bonuses to lasers. àoh, and finally: 36 that give bonuses to drones. ¦ àso actually I was wrong when I said hybrids were the most common: I forgot that unguided missiles are more common than the guided ones I searched for at first ù all those rocket and torpedo frigates push the missile ship count over the edge. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Spit Chew	Posted - 2011.03.22 18:00:00 - [165] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Spit Chew Originally by: Jame Jarl Retief Edited by: Jame Jarl Retief on 22/03/2011 16:46:43 Originally by: Korg Tronix The main flaw with that top 20 is that I believe its calculated using numbers of mails so if one abaddon kill for example has 20 drakes on it, it will get counted 20 times. Does it make much of a difference? Because an Abaddon kill with 20 Myrmidons in it would also be counted 20 times. I think his point was weapon systems with a long range like HM will get on more mails repeatedly simply due to their range. But, you're both right to some extent as that range is what makes them more effective weapons to begin with. There may be a lot of drakes being counted repeatedly, distorting their representation a bit, meaning projectiles are still far and away the more popular weapon system (in theory). I guess nobody reads the QENs. Drakes are really popular. -Liang I wasn't disputing their popularity, merely suggesting that it's more likely for a drake to ***** onto a km than a ship with less than 1/4 it's range.
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.03.22 18:08:00 - [166] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 22/03/2011 18:08:36 Originally by: Spit Chew I wasn't disputing their popularity, merely suggesting that it's more likely for a drake to *** onto a km than a ship with less than 1/4 it's range. Whoring onto the killmail requires absolutely no range at all. Doing anything meaningful on it, OTOH, is an entirely different story. Furthermore, the QEN goes on at some length with regards to the number of Drakes flown and their success ratios in PVP. I'm pretty sure it was more popular than projectiles. ;-) -Liang -- Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire On Twitter
Spit Chew	Posted - 2011.03.22 18:14:00 - [167] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 22/03/2011 18:08:36 Originally by: Spit Chew I wasn't disputing their popularity, merely suggesting that it's more likely for a drake to ***** onto a km than a ship with less than 1/4 it's range. Whoring onto the killmail requires absolutely no range at all. Doing anything meaningful on it, OTOH, is an entirely different story. Furthermore, the QEN goes on at some length with regards to the number of Drakes flown and their success ratios in PVP. I'm pretty sure it was more popular than projectiles. ;-) -Liang I stand corrected then.
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.03.22 18:15:00 - [168] Originally by: Spit Chew I stand corrected then. Meh, don't worry. The next QEN is going to tell us how 1400mm Arty fleets made short work of Drake Trains. But, it is mysteriously missing. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
Noisrevbus	Posted - 2011.03.23 02:39:00 - [169] Edited by: Noisrevbus on 23/03/2011 02:43:40 I thought we had covered it already. QEN as any statistic is a factor, but hardly interesting as a blanket argument. Popularity in the QEN is, as others have already pointed out, highly eschewed by fleet doctrine and lack a quality aspect (ie., how killpoints on killboards tend to say more than total kills; the way Battleclinic ranks pilots; even if we should be fair and point out that they are just onesided and corruptable statistics as well, even if there is a quality modifier involved). Still, lacking deeper analysis, a quality/quantity equation say more than sheer quantity. The only direct thing of interest is that no ship become popular without being a reasonably good ship. You're very unlikely to see a bad ship in the top20, but you're quite likely to see good ships out of it. 1400mm Alpha Maels, not too unlike Drakes, are not necessarily a better concept than Gankbaddons (or Hellcats, for those inclined); yet lend itself well in numerical favour. Pound for pound they're not a better ship or gang concept, but they stack well and will very likely pile on figures for the QEN as Liang suspects. It doesn't say much about the balance of Maelstroms, wether they should be nerfed or anything aside their popularity in a current doctrine applied by an extremely volumunous entity. If anything, the QEN reports detail a fairly healthy ship-ship balance within the political sphere considering that a number of different concepts have come and gone in the past year or past few years. Even big fleets are subject to some rock-paper-scissor, even if the oddsided numbers affect statistics. Compare that to how long 150km Sniper BS was the end-all be-all of fleet warfare and any would have been QEN reports. At the same time, it says very little about Gallente apart from not being streamlined for current blobs. Can we get this thread back on the rails? Literally
Spit Chew Minmatar	Posted - 2011.03.23 04:02:00 - [170] Originally by: Noisrevbus Can we get this thread back on the rails? Literally I think the general idea was that hybrid ships won't show up on the QEN listings because they're not fleet material with the exception of rail platforms (which is to say: mega, rokh, and eagle/diemost if you're feelin' spry) and hence rails are being proved (aside from the graphs we saw which show the theory side), once a again, inferior.

Cipher7	Posted - 2011.03.23 14:26:00 - [171] Gallente are fine. Things are pretty balanced right now between the races. Only : #1 - Rails need a slight boost #2 - Drake need a slight shield nerf Do that and everything is balanced. C7
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.03.23 14:34:00 - [172] Originally by: Cipher7 Do that and everything is balanced. àexcept blasters. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Cipher7	Posted - 2011.03.23 14:37:00 - [173] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Cipher7 Do that and everything is balanced. àexcept blasters. What's wrong with blasters? C7
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.03.23 15:26:00 - [174] Originally by: Cipher7 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Cipher7 Do that and everything is balanced. àexcept blasters. What's wrong with blasters? C7 Their advantage within their niche is tiny, and the niche itself is just as small. Also a geddon ODs a mega at 8km onwards, that's also a problem.
Swynet	Posted - 2011.03.23 16:00:00 - [175] Originally by: Cipher7 What's wrong with blasters? Before saying anything like you did just take the time to read things like this thread. You'll look less like a troll ________________________________________________ Originally by: Goose99 In EVE, PVE can happen anywhere, anytime. Whenever you undock, you subject yourself to involuntary PVE.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.03.23 16:03:00 - [176] Originally by: Cipher7 What's wrong with blasters? No range compounded by poor tracking within that short range compounded by how short range makes tracking harder, and not nearly enough additional damage to make up for these shortfalls. àfurther compounded by the blaster platforms generally being very poor at getting and staying within those ranges, much less keeping their targets confined to the narrow band of blaster effectiveness. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Spit Chew Minmatar	Posted - 2011.03.23 16:27:00 - [177] Originally by: Cipher7 Gallente are fine. Things are pretty balanced right now between the races. Only : #1 - Rails need a slight boost #2 - Drake need a slight shield nerf Do that and everything is balanced. C7 No, not really.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2011.03.23 16:48:00 - [178] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Cipher7 What's wrong with blasters? No range compounded by poor tracking within that short range compounded by how short range makes tracking harder, and not nearly enough additional damage to make up for these shortfalls. àfurther compounded by the blaster platforms generally being very poor at getting and staying within those ranges, much less keeping their targets confined to the narrow band of blaster effectiveness. And, imo, the existence of other guns with similar DPS and tracking, but far superior range.
Songbird Gallente T.I.E. Inc.	Posted - 2011.03.23 17:05:00 - [179] Originally by: Gypsio III And, imo, the existence of other guns with similar DPS and tracking, but far superior range. , lower fitting requirements, no cap usage, changeable damage types...
Doug Drafto	Posted - 2011.03.24 06:38:00 - [180] Edited by: Doug Drafto on 24/03/2011 06:42:39 Hybrid Tracking: Hybrids don't track as well as AC's. FACT. Its right in the stats for the weapon. In rad/s they are slightly faster, but our ships do not fly based on rad/s they fly in m/s. You need to account for the range/lever arm. At 3km fighting distance for blasters vs 15km for ACs it becomes immediately apparent how terrible hybrid tracking is in REALITY. It isn't fiction... you just aren't accounting for the entirety of the situation. Gallente vs. Others: This is only made worse by the fact that Minmatar are significantly faster than Gallente. This was at least somewhat offset when 90% webs existed (you might get lucky if they got in your range) and before 9km scramblers that defeat the MWD that is REQUIRED on any blaster boat. If those changes were meant to be a nano nerf of sorts its pretty ridiculous. All it did was boost minmatar and amarr as they don't need to be within 9km and any chance of Gallente getting closer has been removed. Further more why do projectiles have such a ridiculously huge fall off in combination with the fastest race. So basically minmatar is the fastest and has the largest range where as Gallente is one of the slowest and has the shortest range. What is that? Lastly... Minmatar etc can fit shield extenders. Add +2600HP that self regenerates with relatively small hit to PG and a minuscule +25 sig radius. They can use 2-3 extenders AND maintain their speed and damage. A Gallente ship is paper thin with its active tank, huge sig with MWD that deactivates anyway, its too slow, it can't hit, etc........ Yea it can pump out a ton of DPS peak, but you can never get in that peak, not even close. Really this thread should be about reasonable ways (suggestions) to fix the issue at hand more than about whether or not Gallente sucks. If you don't get why Gallente sucks by this point then . Why the hell did CCP take away 90% webs and make MWDs deactivate. What they should of done was nerf the vagabond and friends by bringing the tracking speed vs. range of ACs to realistic levels and by taking away the massive passive shield tanks they get for free.



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