If you're not, then you're doing it wrong. I don't care what you're flying. I haven't made a fit in the last 3 months that wasn't SingleDual ASB fit, even if it was meant to armor tank.

If this mod doesn't get nerfed/rebalanced with every other defensive system, then CCP's lost its mawbles.

ASB made big splash in the Alliance Tournament, I don't know if it's a different story in "the wild" though.

They really aren't all they're cracked up to be.

As usual, alpha > active.

If you're not, then you're doing it wrong. I don't care what you're flying. I haven't made a fit in the last 3 months that wasn't Single or Dual ASB fit, even if it was meant to armor tank.

Riiiight. Except for this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this. And this.

edit: Oh, and this one too.

I think they should boost ASBs. Active tanking still isn't viable. :( :( :( :(

making a fit != flying a previously existing one.

that said, ASBs are still meh.

you can buff active tanking all you want, high alpha will always trump it by design. so, basically, no.

I know!!! Active tanking just doesn't scale. It needs an even bigger buff. I think ASBs should have a 10 second reload time just like cap boosters!!

I know!!! Active tanking just doesn't scale. It needs an even bigger buff. I think ASBs should have a 10 second reload time just like cap boosters!!

For PVP skirmish they are handy, but I think you'd have a hard time convincing a mission runner that an ASB is better than a solid passive tank in something like Worlds collide (Or whatever it's called), where you are sitting and tanking for a half hour or so. I know my Rattlesnake deadspace runner will never have one fitted when I'm webbed, scrammed and neuted for the hour I'm in there hacking cans.

Mr Epeen

you can buff active tanking all you want, high alpha will always trump it by design. so, basically, no.

Riiiight. Except for this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this. And this.

edit: Oh, and this one too.

its not nice to tease the general discussion people. they dont know any better (((

Maybe I made an error in my calculations somewhere but when accounting for the usual skill bonuses most of the ASBs didn't seem very impressive compared to a plain old easier to fit shield extender of the same size across one reload cycle. The small was a little better, the medium almost exactly identical, the large maybe significantly but not out of the park better. The only one that was a great deal better was the XLASB, and you'd sort of expect that given there isn't an XLSE. Basically, unless you have a source of boost bonuses they didn't seem to be all they're cracked up to be compared to plain old buffer.

Did I make a miscalculation or is that accurate? They do have more advantages if you can actually live through the reload cycle or disengage to reload, but across the one cycle not so much.

Please let me enjoy an armor version of the ASB. Would be nice for Gallente blaster boats to be allowed to play the game again.

Translation: More homogenization please!

A lot of people are starting to seriously overestimate the ASBs and are expecting more out of them than they'll get. We're already starting to see some really bad ASB ships. I expect many more to come as this expectation of them being the "i win" button spreads.

I'd say a large part of that is because ASBs give the feeling that you can do things that are patently insane. And the thing about it is that it's true - though obviously there are limits. Fitting an ASB gives you a much better chance of survival and success than fitting the traditional booster + cap booster or extender + [other].

For instance, I can't really fathom face tanking (and killing) a well fit Thrasher in a T1 frigate with 1 tank slot. That encourages me to do more stupid things like engage further and further against the odds. If it wasn't so mindbogglingly successful I wouldn't keep trying it.

-Liang

If that thrasher has the same "1 slot tank" then you are ******. It works both ways.

Yeah, but not everyone has picked up on the Magic 1 Slot Tank. I'll figure something out once they do. Probably pecking at them for a few hours from 20km.

-Liang

LOL everyone knows what that thing does, and as shown in all of the killmails listed in the threads about ASB's you still die it just takes longer, just like any boat with a tank.

Generally speaking, someone usually dies in PVP. Having a great tank with very few drawbacks is a great way to optimize the chances in your favor.

-Liang

Solo PVP is too risky now. Almost no chance unless you have it fitted too. You would be better off engaging a Drake and a Falcon in an iteron.

Yeah cause putting a mod 2 sizes larger than your ship in your fit ,which just so happens to use a TON of CPU and more than a little power grid which will affect what weapons and rigs you can put on a ship is in no way a "draw back"

Maybe I made an error in my calculations somewhere but when accounting for the usual skill bonuses most of the ASBs didn't seem very impressive compared to a plain old easier to fit shield extender of the same size across one reload cycle. The small was a little better, the medium almost exactly identical, the large maybe significantly but not out of the park better. The only one that was a great deal better was the XLASB, and you'd sort of expect that given there isn't an XLSE. Basically, unless you have a source of boost bonuses they didn't seem to be all they're cracked up to be compared to plain old buffer.

Did I make a miscalculation or is that accurate? They do have more advantages if you can actually live through the reload cycle or disengage to reload, but across the one cycle not so much.

It's actually not that big of a deal when you consider that most active tanked ships are going to end up burning a two slots on a cap booster and fitting mod anyway. Even if they're lucky enough to avoid burning the fitting slot they're still getting an inferior booster.

-Liang

Ed: And ultimately, CCP agrees that ASBs are problematic. I believe the wording was "too powerful and further shifts the meta towards shields".

link the quote or call it an opinion.

Discussion of tanking imbalances:
So some people have been asking if we care about some of the design problems inherent in our current tanking situation, and if we're going to redesign these ships to compensate for these problems.
Firstly, we are very aware of the many problems we're facing in tanking design at the moment. The balance between active and passive tanks, and between armor and shield (and honour) tanking are both in need of work. ASBs have made parts of this problem better (adding new interesting gameplay and making "active" tanking more popular) while making other parts worse (too good in many circumstances, and skewing the meta further towards shield). Armor and shield tanking balance suffers because mass (and velocity) penalties are far more severe than signature radius penalties in most circumstances, and to a lesser extent because of the difference between shield hitting at the start of a cycle and armor hitting at the end. This is especially harmful for active tanking Gallente blaster ships that need that speed to get within range.
These problems are real and we are working on them, but the solution isn't to skew the ships themselves too far in the opposite direction. Our goals are to hit the problems at their source.
That being said there may be things we end up doing to these ships to help smooth things out, such as reducing cycle times and/or tweaking the mass of the armor tankers down a bit. We're going to keep working on these ships up to and beyond release in the Winter.

Second, cool it costs the same as 2 mods that were used before to do the same, now you have an empty mid slot and not much fitting left, unless you give up a low slot to add a fitting mod in the lows so you can use the empty mid slot for something besides a T1 tracking computer.. So you are still giving something up. Saying that everyone using it means its over powered would mean that the drake needs to be nerfed cause its half of every fleet they fly up north in the CFC and Zealots need to be nerfed cause that's all NC. counters those overpowered drakes with. And we should probably adjust those trimark and shield extender rigs cause god knows "everyone" is using those all the time so they must be over powered. Everyone using something means nothing, its only OP if there is no viable counter, in this case there is, out DPS the ASB or and here's the secret you seem to be missing, wait till it reloads and burn him down while his active tank is reloading for a minute. If a minute long reload timer in a 1 v 1 fight isn't a drawback to you I don't know what is.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1826541#post1826541

Money quote:


Anyway, ASBs WILL be eating a nerf. And frankly, I'm pretty thankful about that because I'm tired of seeing people dual ASB tank literally every ship - regardless of how strong it's armor bonuses are.



We staged a duel vs a corpmate a couple of days ago. His Ferox tanked 2 close range gank canes and an Ishtar (~2600 DPS) for 4 minutes and 20 seconds. He turned his guns off to avoid killing the Hurricanes. Yes the down side exists, but it's not nearly as debilitating as you seem to believe it is.

-Liang

Ed: And really, if you needed any more proof that ASB's are OP as hell: a dual XL tanked Myrm (T2 fit/T1 rigs) is superior in every way - including tank longevity - to a triple deadspace/faction/t2 rigged Myrmidon.

Seriously.

"ASBs have made parts of this problem better (adding new interesting gameplay and making "active" tanking more popular)"

I find it interesting in your first post you omit the part that CCP said that disagrees with your post and said they liked a lot of what it has done and indicate it needs to be adjusted, not massively nerfed or removed as you and your little band of "its not fair-ites" keep parroting.

As far as 2 canes AND an ishtar not being able to kill a ferox goes, I'd LOVE to see a video showing how you fit those canes and what drones the ishtar was using and the skill sheets for those pilots cause I've seen similar fights and the ferox had to run like HELL to avoid death because an auto neuting webbing cane + auto nueting webbing cane + large drone ishtar = a VERY dead ferox becuase who cares that your tank is run on cap boosters if you dont have the cap to shoot back? Unless of course your drone and guns skills are as much of a joke as this thread in which case, yeah that ferox will own you, repeatedly.

I know right! We can't have all of the races working, that'd be too homogeneous!

There's nothing at all wrong with armor tanking right now. It's different from shield tanking and that's the way it should be. If you think shield tanking is somehow OP now, which I assume you do since you believe armor tanking is broken, consider the consequences of homogenization before flapping your gums.

It's been a long time since I've seen a non-ASB assault frigate fit in space.

ASBs have made parts of the gameplay better. Your choices are a bit more than "Fit Buffer" or "Fit ******* Expensive". Now it's "Fit Buffer In Fleets" and "Fit ASBs EVERYWHERE ELSE". That's some kind of improvement, sure. However, you're neglecting his further statement: they are too good.



Funny thing - I actually frapsed it. The only question is if I'll get enough motivation to burn a day of my play time encoding and uploading it. I'll link the skills of the Ishtar pilot in a second, but everyone involved was about as poorly skilled. Here: http://bit.ly/Pp83xL

The Hurricanes varied, but were 425mm fit with RF EMP. I believe one had missiles and the other neuts. One had ECM drones and the other Warriors. The Ishtar was kite fit with 3 long range guns, 3 drone damage mods, and Berzerker IIs. Again someone calculated the DPS at 2600 DPS, which was tanked for 4 minutes and 18 seconds. At the end of the video as the Ferox is about to dip into armor, his reload completes.

-Liang

So you took three randomly fit ships that did not complement each other in any way had them use different pvp doctines( max dps cane = missile fit / brawler cane = nuet fit. /kiting ishtar)

You put ecm drones on instead of DPS on one cane when both should be flying wariors or target painter drones or even nuet drones to shut his hybrid/blasters off entirely P.S. if he can't shoot he can't kill your canes... Pro tip is free of charge btw.

And then you have the ishtar which in this case is begging you to load it up with drone damage mods get in close to throw some more nuets on the ferox and then drop sentries or the heavies you brought, I would probably use setnries with all the nueting and webbing already on field.

So all in all we have a ferox with no cap = can't shoot .. webbed to hell so he can't move, being target painted by 10 drones, chewed on by 5 sentries, and being shot by 2 canes point blank with T2 220 autos loaded with the point blank T2 ammo (no I don't remember the name) Now assuming you have lvl 5 or at least level 4 supports gunnery skills and level 5 gun skills (and oh yeah btw the guns better all be T2 or GTFO right now) you add all that up and there is no ******* way that ferox survives.

But the way you did it?
Yeah, the ferox will win.

It's called planning maybe you should make one next time.

So... all of what you said is meaningless. 2600 DPS for 4 minutes and 20 seconds.

-Liang

Are you even reading my posts?

If he can't shoot you then who ******* cares how long he can tank you?
He has to reload the device.
Once he runs out he is ****** and you can't die while holding him if he can't shoot.

The biggest problem with armor tanking is the reliance on rigs that slow you down. Velocity is a much bigger penalty than sig radius - because it affects the same things (damage application to you) as well as more (your mobility).

-Liang

I agree that the penalties for Shield tanking vs. Armor tanking are out of whack, specifically rig penalties, however that's not really my point. ASB's need adjustment, but that adjustment should not involve giving the same mechanic to Armor tanks.

My point is that armor and shield should be different. I don't think anybody wants to see XL Shield extenders to match 1600mm Armor Plates or Crystal sets for armor tanking or Slave sets for Shield tanking.

I agree that you can do this to a Ferox. It's my biggest concern with people doing it on a Ferox. You cannot, however, do this to ships that don't require capacitor to fire. Furthermore, a nos is usually a pretty decent counter to non-overwhelming neuts. But no, the point of the exercise was to see how long he could hold up.

And the answer to that is 2600 DPS for 4 minutes and 20 seconds.

-Liang

The point of your exercise was to prove that they can't be countered because they are overpowered.

I just gave you the counter but you are so busy hating it all you can do is say well fine it works on a ferox but not another boat, you're right I'd have to use a different plan to kill a non cap using gun ship, but there's ways to do that too if you actually look for a way to do it. Yes they need to be adjusted, so does EVERY MOD EVER ADDED TO THE GAME, its called development. But just because it gives you a very specific advantage does not in any way make it overpowered or in need of a nerf.

I get that you despise this mod, I think everyone reading this thread has figured that out, but if you would stop crying about the unfairness and look at it logically you will see it is like everything else in the entire game it has its upside and its downside.

I do believe you weren't on vent so you claiming why we did a particular test is pretty hilarious. Again: the point of the exercise was for him to find out how long he could hold out in a practical PVP environment. And if it were simply development I wouldn't really mind. However, all that's really happened has been ASBs becoming yet another near must-have mod.

They need toned down, and they will be toned down.



Sure, it has down sides. His poor Ferox only tanked 700k effective damage before we called it off as obvious he was going to go down. :( :( :(

-Liang

I could take this conversation until riiiiiiiiight here: "practical PVP environment"

Not a single part of the discussion we have had represents what live unexpected pvp works like, besides my post about fitting ships that complement each other. Every other comment has been something to do with the theory of that tank for that boat in a very specialized controlled setting against a known number of enemies, and assuming it was not in a WH where the effects of the system change everything.

Also: "I do believe you weren't on vent so you claiming why we did a particular test is pretty hilarious." You first few comments referencing test were about how that test showed the mod was overpowered. I can only claim to know what you tell me.

I'm not sure what part of having 2 gank canes and a nano Ishtar in typical PVP setups beating on you doesn't look like a PVP environment? Furthermore, why should the reason we were doing this test have any bearing on whether the outcome illustrates just how overpowered the module is?

At any rate: 2600 DPS for 4 minutes and 20 seconds. The module is overpowered, and it will be adjusted.

-Liang

What are the chances someone fighting you solo won't call in his gang buddy or tell his friend to burn down for some free kills cause he's "holding his tank for 4+ minutes"?

You didn't have to catch and tackle your friend you just started shooting at each other from optimal ranges for your setups. And unless that ishtar is Micro fitted its not tackling anything so then you have a BC trying to tackle a BC, 50/50 at best unless the guy getting tackled wants to be tackled or is just plain dumb.

Your entire argument is based on the module you letting you tank for 4 minutes which you have stated several times is over powered and not fair.

You are letting your tunnel vision focus on the mod, not what it does and what that means in anything other than 1 on 1 2 on 2 fights.

And you keep referring to the 4 minute tank time and then saying its not all your talking about. If its not all your talking about stop repeating it every other post and prove it.

We have both stated the mod needs work, I would like to see it adjusted meaning minor changes, you seem to want CCP to hit it with the nerf bat till its as useless as as a shield booster in PVP.

I'm not against saying your right or we have different ideas on how to change the mod I just want to see you say something other than bla bla bla 4 minute tank bla bla bla nerf it.

And how much dps does your friend do with 2 x-large boosters?, I could probably tank it with a single medium armor rep.

You seem to have figured out why we were testing his tank. Amazing.



Sometimes people don't really mind getting tackled. That's usually me - but that particular fit was meant for kiting with drone damage mods.



No, my entire argument is that it lets people do things that kinda break the game. Your defense of "just wait for the minute reload" argument just doesn't hold any water when people are out there tanking 2600 DPS for 4 minutes in a BC. The module itself is so powerful that in small gangs it's very much becoming "Fit ASB or go home". A T2 fit/T1 rigged dual ASB Myrmidon is better in every single way than a triple rep deadspace fit/T2 rigged Myrmidon.

CCP Fozzie was exactly correct when he said that it improved the active tanking situation somewhat. After all, more people are active tanking than ever before. However, it also became a Must Fit Module and people are fitting them to literally everything. Hell I am fitting them to literally everything.

ASB Executioners, ASB Atrons, ASB Cyclones, ASB Feroxes, ASB Drakes, ASB Talsoes, ASB Oracles, ASB Hyperions, ASB ******* everything. And so is everyone else.



I want CCP to hammer it with the nerfbat, yes. That's because the entire concept behind the ASB is utterly broken. It tanks better than a deadspace rep, eliminates the need for a cap booster, renders you immune to neuts, frees up a slot, and is super easy on fittings. I've ranted about this problem at length. It needs changed pretty dramatically.

Also, saying that it's as useless as a shield booster in PVP is... well, funny. I've got 5 PVP videos out that feature active tanking and kicking the **** out of gangs that both outnumber us as well as outship us. I KNOW how effective active tanking was - and even old style active tanking is far more effective than you really give it credit for.

-Liang

I could take this conversation until riiiiiiiiight here: "practical PVP environment"

Not a single part of the discussion we have had represents what live unexpected pvp works like, besides my post about fitting ships that complement each other. Every other comment has been something to do with the theory of that tank for that boat in a very specialized controlled setting against a known number of enemies, and assuming it was not in a WH where the effects of the system change everything.

Also: "I do believe you weren't on vent so you claiming why we did a particular test is pretty hilarious." You first few comments referencing test were about how that test showed the mod was overpowered. I can only claim to know what you tell me.

Okay, I had to hold you up on this bit. The rest of your banter back and forth with Liang was pretty standard fare, but you actually suggested that a pratical PvP environment in EVE involved unexpected PvP. We all know this isn';t the case unless you are a disconnected loner wandering about on your own.

Everybody else has people probing ships and checking fits before any live combat actually takes place. Most have time to fly to a station and change their fits to easily destroy that poor unexpecting loner on his own out there. If you're in a fleet, the expectation is simple: more people to tank, more people to shoot; everybody is going to buffer and dps with pretty predictable fits.

If you're skirmishing in a small gang; then expect that the gang will quickly recon and decide to fight or evade based on what they see there. Nothing unexpected ever really happens in a practical PvP environment unless you're a noob.

That said, I'm still pretty much a noob, but even I know that I'm missing something and most people who do it regularly aren't.

Wut? yeah, no kidding you're a noob and while its sounds like it I don't mean that in a bad way but it is an apt label. That kind of warfare happens between alliance blocks who have time due to the distance between them to scan down the opponent check his fit and change ships. No gang 20 jumps home who suddenly finds a gate camp on the other side has any time to do a single thing you just listed. As far as recon the opponent that jumped into you. That involves the FC on your side counting ships and noting ships types and deciding whether or not to run like hell. If you are the one doing the jumping in and you don't like your odds you decide whether to suicide engage to get a "gud fight" or you run before their scout tells them you're their and they jump you.

Edit 1) that's accurate i'll give you that. But to this day I have yet to encounter a solo pvper, friendly or otherwise who will sit still long enough to be scanned down in a system let a lone let you scan his fit.

Edit 2) try pvping a few hundred more times and then try to tell me that. I used to think the same thing. First time someone cynos 3 moms on top of your 10 BC gang fit to kite **** you will change your mind I know I did.

I've encountered plenty of people who scan ships in the time it takes to leave a gate. What do you think they are doing out there anyway?

500-1100 mm scan resolution is fast enough to get nearly anything.

Besides that, they wouldn't be ganking if they thought they might lose, and any risk has to have a reward to compensate for the risk itself. Just ganking someone isn't generally done, unless you already know what they've got in their cargo, or know they can't possibly tank your gang long enough to kill one of you.

There is very little risk in PvP when it really boils down to it, unless you happen to be solo or skirmishing. Evn skirmishing doesn't usually involve a lot of risk when you've got the ability to look at a ship and tel if it's got T2 guns, know the make and weaknesses, and which standard tank is being used without ever needing a scanner.

wrong key, so sue me. ..and I'm quite aware of the sig; that's why it's there.

edit: high-sec, lowsec, and actually nullsec and wormhole space too. NPC Null particulalry, but Alliance Null too.

Just because this toon doesn't have a history doesn't mean I haven't been there; though a bit might have changed since I had. Your Alliance for example, wasn't around, unless I've just never heard of it till now. Haven't bothered to check the details.

..actually, having checked your toon; it wasn't around until some time after either. I noticed you made similar assumptions while jumping on Liang Nurens head too. ..not in a bad way; I've seen real trolls and I know the difference. ;)

A) And you still haven't figured out why this number is funny. it takes a minute to reload one of these things and I have seen 4 guys turn a BC to dust in less than 45 seconds, so after he uses it and it empties and reloads it, you have 60 seconds to ruin his day, but your crap fleet comp and apparent misfits make that impossible. You have great long term DPS in that fleet but no short duration High dps to burn down a ship with a tank.

B) Killmails showing this would be interesting to see, cause the only hyp killmails I have seen with an ASB resulted in the guy dieing comically fast. And no "EVERYONE" is not using them. I, in fact have not put a single ASB on a single ship I own on any of my 3 shield tanking chars. so .. no everyone is the wrong word.

C) We have been over both of those points and they aren't accurate, the only time cap doesn't matter is if you are using projectile guns and don't care if you have no cap at all (including the cap needed to run resist mods, ewar, tackle, and oh yeah that prop mod that IS used by "everyone". so yeah cap still matters. Better than a deadspace? Yeah for how many cap boosters you have loaded. and as soon as you run out... oops. guess its not better than a rep that can be run for a lot longer than 30 seconds.

D) If a gang out numbers you by enough to matter and they still can't win with numbers, ships and firepower I want to know where they live so I can "visit" it sounds like a fun place to pvp. If you can take an inferior ship in an inferior fleet with inferior firepower into a fight AND win then something is being done very, very wrong by the guys with all the advantages that matter.

That may be true in high sec. But out here in Null-sec? Let's just say a few of the rules change.

They are absolute garbage for pve. I have heard a lot of people use them for PvP, but not wormholes.

You know, I went and checked out your KB history based on the "out here in null sec". It perfectly confirmed what I suspected: you aren't impressed with the ASB because you regularly fly in gangs big enough that no active tank can ever matter. And really, that's ok - but do try to restrict your commentary to parts of the game you have a clue about.

-Liang

LOL, if it wasn't for the fact that all I see on your killboard is repeated losses in lowsec in a T1 frig and I might actually take your opinion of me seriously...but as it stands I just can't.

Oh, and about that theory that a big ship with and ASB can beat anything?

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17357073

I'm pretty sure you just helped prove it can't.
...
And heres one of those double fit ASB's

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17357073

Didn't seem to help him much.

And yes before you start talking about how you were using one too and that is the only way to counter an ASB.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17342217
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17324620
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17307473
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17283367
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17262945
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17243281
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17236813

I would say based on how many times you have died using the horribly "OP" mod that its not nearly as good as you keep saying, cause if it was you wouldn't have lost all the ships you have with it fitted.

The ASB is not an instant WIN button its a tool, its better than a lot of the other tools and will get adjusted eventually. But its no where near as good as you think.

As far as "EVERYONE IS USING IT" goes:

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17342211
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17342371
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17357278

And I remember something about how awesome Myrms are with one

Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?)
Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com
PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos
Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren

I'm not trying to talk **** or anything, but I've got more kills this week in T1 frigates than you've got in the last 2 months. So far this month I have more kills in T1 frigates than you've got this year. Furthermore, the majority of my kills are in actual small gangs where the ASB is coming to dominate, while the gangs that you fly in (when you bother to actually PVP at all) are of such a size that no active tank can ever matter. You just don't understand the kind of PVP that is being discussed here.

It's not all bad though. You *HAVE* actually PVPed this month!



First off, that's the same killmail twice. Moving on: You are looking at the killmail and saying "Ah, look - an ASB fit ship died". Yet you fail to take the context of that kill into account. For instance, you don't know whether I was ASB fit or not. As it turns out, I was not ASB fit and the fight went down exactly as I posited it must once everyone is fitting ASBs. All the way down to the fight taking 20 minutes and us running him out of cap boosters.



So you cite 7 ASB fit losses where I was engaging ships that I had no legitimate reason to believe I could ever survive engaging. In return I cite 80 kills with a 97% efficiency fighting things that I have no legitimate reason to believe I could ever survive engaging. But the ASB is so powerful that it gives me sufficient confidence to take on suicidal situations... and overwhelmingly win. After all, you can never win big if you never risk anything.

I have a job, i know, what a tool right? It just so happens my job is during my corp and alliance prime time so I get to pvp with them on my days off and the few times the go out when I'm online late at night.

Also I have a very hard time believing you didn't fit an ASB on the ship you killed the cyclone with. Because you can see here you are seen flying a condor while killing that cyclone:
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17357073

and here you are while piloting your trusty condor which you died in not 48 hours before:
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17342217

100% proof? **** no, reasonable doubt? Yeah.

"that I had no legitimate reason to believe I could ever survive engaging. " per your previous statements about these devices you think using one = winning so why did you expect to lose?
...
"But the ASB is so powerful that it gives me sufficient confidence to take on suicidal situations" I can do that in a T1 frig too and I hate to break it to you it doesn't take an ASB to get point/scram just balls.

"So you just searched out a bunch of killmails where ASB fit ships killed non-ASB fit ships. I'm not sure if you're trying to help get ASBs nerfed or not?" As I stated you claim EVERYONE is using one... obviously that is not accurate, I'm not trying to get them nerfed I'm pointing out your wrong.

Linking the killmail twice was kind of the point it was double repped AND it still died.
...
"All the way down to the fight taking 20 minutes and us running him out of cap boosters." No **** Sherlock you are fighting an ACTIVE TANK BATTLECRUISER with T1 FRIGATES it should take you 20 minutes to win, your throwing GOLF BALLS at a TIGER TANK its gonna take a while.

Just a note on the dual large asb cyclone, with heat and running both boosters it almost tanks 800 dps. You had 2 blaster ships that use therm + kinetic and you used light kinetic missiles, so each booster can now tank 500 dps, that's probably enough to tank your 4 ships. The cyclone would not be able to tank you with one booster using someting like 4 rifters.

You just had the wrong ships + ammo, it should be hard to kill a bonused active tanked bc with 4 t1 frigates especially when two of them is fit for long range missiles.

Just a note on the dual large asb cyclone, with heat and running both boosters it almost tanks 800 dps. You had 2 blaster ships that use therm + kinetic and you used light kinetic missiles, so each booster can now tank 500 dps, that's probably enough to tank your 4 ships. The cyclone would not be able to tank you with one booster using someting like 4 rifters.

You just had the wrong ships + ammo, it should be hard to kill a bonused active tanked bc with 4 t1 frigates especially when two of them is fit for long range missiles.

...

I need a life.

[quote=Shanija]

People who use them on Hurricanes, Ruptures, etc. fit their ships poorly and die as a result.

I'm sorry, did you just claim that T1 attack frigates are by and large able to sit 3-5km from a Thrasher and DPS down since the patch that boosted them? That's... special.

Also, I'm really tired of the incoherent ranting, straw man arguments, and personal attacks. I decided not to respond to most of those. It's why my post is so short.

-Liang

AAAGH! I'm a spaceship forum-warrior and I must be right in every PVP thread so I'll trawl your killboard history and quote your loss mails without any context of what actually was happening at that point in time. All to prop up my poorly thought out opinion, which was roflstomped three replies back.

Something tells me that this thread is actually a subtle plea to have ASBs nerfed.

Yes, yes you do. Go PVP and stop writing novels...

I would like to quibble about your math a bit. While obviously your math is good in the mundane case, the mundane case is never the case that gets used and abused. Consider that the Nano nerf didn't happen because people were flying around at 5km/s in Crows, but instead because people were flying around at 35km/s in crows.

With that in mind, it becomes obvious that a dual large ASB Cyclone can be made to tank somewhere between 1600-2300 DPS per booster. To put that in perspective, a dual large ASB Cyclone can tank 2.5-3 BCs per booster. Furthermore, it can do this while being completely immune to neutralization. There is no counter available to small gangs except bringing more people and taking more time. That's why ASBs are being fit to everything from famously armor tanked ships (Myrmidons) to famously shield tanked ships (Cyclones).

With regards to that specific fight, I believe it's worth mentioning that I never brought it up as an example of how ASBs are OP or not and I wouldn't really consider a fight between two ASB ships to be an interesting example of balance. Furthermore, I certainly wouldn't complain that a ship was tanking well when we were deliberately flying around in kite tanked T1 frigs. Some back of the napkin math tells me that if the Cyclone had been set up to maximum effect, the fight could have gone on for a long, long, long time. Totally neglecting shield and cap recharge I'd have expected 24,000+ seconds (about 7 hours) before running dry of cap boosters.

And finally, I'd say I made a pretty clear argument earlier in the thread why what we did (DPS with kiting ships) was the proper response when facing an ASB ship. You can make the argument that doing it in frigates was suboptimal and I'd agree.That doesn't mean that the tactic itself is any less viable. That we eventually did win is really a testament to the fact that ASB ships can be killed.

But then, I've never claimed that they couldn't. Just that they are powerful enough to provide an overpowered competitive advantage against ships that are not ASB fit.

-Liang

Ed: Do try not to read so much into his straw man arguments. :)

T2 ships are benefiting the most from a x-large ASB

Exception of Cyclone and Maelstrom mostly true.

take a Rapier for example.

I literally laughed out loud at this.
ASB Rapier boosts back all of its shields with one cycle of the ASB and gets volley'd far too easily to be of use. Rapiers, as well as the cookie cutter cane, are still buffer fits because they are better that way.
While the XL ASB Cane might be useful against solo drakes (wait, there's solo drakes w/o cynos?) they are not nearly as effective in small gang where 3 hurricanes will easily break it.

ASBs remain useful on tank bonused ships like Maelstroms and Cyclones (Found a 1.5b triple ASB Rattler once), etc and on small fast ships like frigate hulls, T1 and T2. However, they are not the be all end all of the most popular PVP ships (Canes Drakes and 1400mm Tonados).

If i remember correctly we saw an ASB fit everything fleet and well...it died pretty hard.

If you-re 3-5 k from a thrrasher to tackle it, you're tackling like a 4 year old, a point reaches 24 km and your frigate should be faster then the thrasher so if you are sitting at 3-5 km, again you are doing it wrong.

And on the damage the other guy is right, attacking minny ships which have Therm and Kinetic leaning tanks means he can tank you far easier then he should be able to, so again, you're doing it wrong.

This thread is one of the few on this entire forum where people are actually discussing the fact that you are simply misinformed, the personal attacks didn't start until you responded to logic by repeating your core statements with different words that mean the same thing, which in this game is just flat out begging people to start trolling.

Not for nothing, but even with an EM resist rig the EM hole on a minny ship is big enough to drive a truck through yet there your incorrect ammo using frigs sit throwing therm and kinetic damage at a ship designed to tank Kinetic and tanked heavily against thermal. Again the golf ball tank comparison come to mind.

And a note about the underlined bits, do you even own a dictionary or now how to use the one on google??????

saying something is suboptimal yet STILL viable is just... well not real intelligent? your admitting your tactics choice puts you at a disadvantage and then you cry about being at a disadvantage. That's like complaining you don't get paid enough at work and then turning down an offered raise.

"I think we have provably established that it was a viable tactic. It won, after all. Doesn't make it efficient or optimal, but certainly viable."

I'm not sure if you're serious either. You complain it took to long to kill it and that's unbalanced and bla bla bla but when called on using a bad plan that was guaranteed to take awhile you admit you knew that, so why are you complaining it happened the way you knew it would?????????

Yeah, you and your 4 or 2 friends depending on the mail dps'd down a dessy.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17349298

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17349302

Again something that SHOULD happen 2-4 frigs should smoke a dessy with little to no effort especially when the dessy is arty fit and you are point blank. so again, No, try again.

EDIT* http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17243275 Just found this, its a one time event, commonly know as a fluke. What's that saying? **** happens, do it a dozen times in a row with the same ship against the same ship yeah that's a problem. But you only did it once.

"Looks like that's getting into the realm that no active tank is going to matter in" I distinctly remember you telling me that inferior ships with inferior firepower and numbers can win with ASB's clearly not the case per the report linked by Red.

"But really, linking a battle report where a Sleipnir tanks 13 people and takes 90k raw damage is ... probably not going to help your cause"

Sure it does you keep insisting those mods let you win fights you shouldn't be able to, he lost and he should have lost. So where is his miracle victory brought about by the god like mod you hate so much yet use on EVERY PVP loss mail I can find?

"Also, I find it cute that you went and got your entire alliance to come post here Garreth."

This deserves it owns post, I have 2 guys show up days after you're buddies start trolling my posts and now I'm the one asking for help? You say you know and used to hang with Red, ask him if I bat phoned him and mickey or if he noticed the thread while he was browsing the forums.

Also how is 2 guys in my corp = "my entire alliance"?

Ah, my mistake. The fact that your corp/alliance starts posting rapidly in succession wouldn't at all mean that you quite possibly linked the thread and asked for help.



-Liang

I don't want to be involved, and this is a serious question; do people really ask for help in forum threads?

If i remember correctly we saw an ASB fit everything fleet and well...it died pretty hard.

Yeah, I've seen it before. Dozens of times, in fact. I've been on these forms for way too many years.

-Liang

If i remember correctly we saw an ASB fit everything fleet and well...it died pretty hard.

Ah, that was our battle. Hello! Basically what you saw was us dying for a fight (hisec WT weren't providing anything) and a test run of an idea with not enough everything. This was the first non-test server run we had. In other words, a typical skunkworks op.

Hey Red, long time no see. Interesting battle report there. Looks like that's getting into the realm that no active tank is going to matter in. Consider that even the ship with the least number of people on its kill mail is well above any threshold that an active tank can ever matter in - ASB or not. That said, the ASB fit ships did quite well for themselves despite the fact you rather dramatically outnumbered them.

But really, linking a battle report where a Sleipnir tanks 13 people and takes 90k raw damage is ... probably not going to help your cause.

-Liang

eh true but we didn't show till the end. a carrier and maybe a couple drakes were shooting at them for a good while. and i never got in close enough to test out my 1800dps domi :P. then one of the rane guys had an overview issue and started shooting us and took too long to figure it out. does it need a nurf or is it too OP i don't think so. in my opinion armor reps are underpowered in the firstplace. ASB is just a fix in the long list of fixes to active tanks that ccp is going to make.

eh true but we didn't show till the end. a carrier and maybe a couple drakes were shooting at them for a good while. and i never got in close enough to test out my 1800dps domi :P. then one of the rane guys had an overview issue and started shooting us and took too long to figure it out. does it need a nurf or is it too OP i don't think so. in my opinion armor reps are underpowered in the firstplace. ASB is just a fix in the long list of fixes to active tanks that ccp is going to make.

oh and i've been in that realm with active tank myrm with logi support. very interesting to see how well you can tank with dual armor reps and 2 scimis shield repping you against an equal sized fleet. If you are dying slowly means you can get the logi to keep you up. yes scimis but i was too lazy to shield fit it and i liked the active tank for ganking fleets. they go ooh he's all alone and his fleet is 30 au away. we can kill that! .... nope.

It's funny because instead of having many local tanks, you can have buffer tanks and a bunch of logis that together can rep more than a couple of ASBs.

Especially with fleets that use alpha-based tricks, ASBs probably wouldn't like projectile winmatar arty-on-everything attacks.

Yes, I would expect that ASBs do not scale to the FLEET level.

-Liang

I actually wonder how many say tornados you need to blast an ASBed ship. to EFT ~

After all, there was that thread a while ago that claimed a small gang with Tornados could kill most things and that they needed a nerf etc etc. Probably because the person got popped, wonder if he was also using an ASB fit.

the reason they worked in the AT so effectively was the time limit, even in small engagements they can be killed fairly easily, http://pizza.evegank.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=4926 That said when can I start using my AAR?

-edit ope the link in a new tab, it's doing that no kill id dealy again if you just click on it

If you're not, then you're doing it wrong. I don't care what you're flying. I haven't made a fit in the last 3 months that wasn't Single or Dual ASB fit, even if it was meant to armor tank.

If this mod doesn't get nerfed/rebalanced with every other defensive system, then CCP's lost its mawbles.

Here's how I see it in a nut shell:

ASB (dual set-up) is over-powered for skirmish PvP.

Active tanking small ships is useless for any kind of fleet battle (N/A).

Solution: remove the ability to apply multiple ASB's to a ship.

Result: ASB has its purpose in small gang PvP where it can extend the life span of some ships (until it needs to reload) without allowing the ship to be effectively invincible. Active shield tanking will be useless in fleet battles which it was anyway - nothing changed.

Whoever says dual ASB is a problem is utterly delusional.

Dual ASB setup > any active tank setup
Single ASB setup > any passive tank setup

Now it ain't rocket science to come up with right conclusion.

If you're not, then you're doing it wrong. I don't care what you're flying. I haven't made a fit in the last 3 months that wasn't Single or Dual ASB fit, even if it was meant to armor tank.

If this mod doesn't get nerfed/rebalanced with every other defensive system, then CCP's lost its mawbles.

Riiiight. Except for this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this. And this.

edit: Oh, and this one too.

Its a problem because its ENCOURAGES the blobs, as the only way to kill them is out DPS it or alpha it, both of which requires having much larger numbers.

It effectively kills solo PVP, which isnt a problem since this is an MMO, but it also kills SMALL gangs, which are a lot of fun.

Seems CCP thinks it's ok mod so just use it. Let those getting blown up throw tears at CCP.

Except that CCP has already said the ASB is too powerful. That's usually a sign for "We're going to nerf it" in some way. There's so many ways that could go that I'm not even going to try to guess how it'll go down. It could be really minor... it could be really major. Either way I suspect we'll see armor changes at the same time.

-Liang

I literally laughed when you said Rapiers are good ASB ships.
ASB Rapier boosts back all of its shields with one cycle of the ASB and gets volley'd far too easily to be of use. Rapiers, as well as the cookie cutter cane, are still buffer fits because they are better that way.
While the XL ASB Cane might be useful against solo drakes (wait, there's solo drakes w/o cynos?) they are not nearly as effective in small gang where 3 hurricanes will easily break it.

ASBs remain useful on tank bonused ships like Maelstroms and Cyclones (Found a 1.5b triple ASB Rattler once), etc and on small fast ships like frigate hulls, T1 and T2. However, they are not the be all end all of the most popular PVP ships (Canes Drakes and 1400mm Tonados).

If you're not, then you're doing it wrong. I don't care what you're flying. I haven't made a fit in the last 3 months that wasn't Single or Dual ASB fit, even if it was meant to armor tank.

If this mod doesn't get nerfed/rebalanced with every other defensive system, then CCP's lost its mawbles.

You won't laugh when you face that kind of Rapier in a kiting small scale 3-5 gang. An ASB Rapier has about 5k raw shield hp 1x boost cycle reps about 900hp, you are a little over the top with your claim. Usually a Rapier or Huginn is the primary for any opposing kiting gang and usually a passive Rapier dies or is forced off grid but with a x-large ASB fit that Rapier can stay on field much longer and will cause havoc. And yes alpha is/will be a problem but in small gangs you won't have that much alpha, test it and you won't laugh anymore. The same deal with Falcons.
The funny thing is most Recons have absolutly no fitting problem to get 1 x-large ASB online.

An ASB Cane deals very well against 2 passive Canes actually you will be able to tank the DPS of 2 Canes and laugh about the neuts. And you commentary about solo Drakes shows me that you have no clue about small scale.

Edit:
Just so you aren't in the dark, a scram ASB Cane has no invul instead you fit a T2 shield ampli. You can consider that kind of ASB Cane as "passive" with extended buffer tank.

M1k3y Koontz and the people he flys with know what they are doing so typically doesn't matter how pimp you are you'll die.

If you say so .......

I don't care about what you think, i know how good that ASB Rapier and Falcon is. Same deal with an ASB Cane, i know first hand what that ship is capable of.