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Simple Q: Is ice mining profitable?

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Caldorous	Posted - 2005.02.03 16:48:00 - [1] I hope that the question is clear, when i mean profitable i mean as profitable as mining better asteroids than scordite... thx for the replies ----------------------------- 2005.03.13 01:11:29combatYour 350mm Railgun I perfectly strikes Asteroid (Veldspar), wrecking for 0.0 damage.
Shintai	Posted - 2005.02.03 16:52:00 - [2] No not anymore. But it is "easier" to mine since you can be more afk the 7.5mins between each...perfect for the busy work or home person. Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Tarm	Posted - 2005.02.03 18:32:00 - [3] Edited by: Tarm on 03/02/2005 18:33:46 7.5 minutes (lvl 3 harvesting) = 2 units (medium barge)/cycle 60/7.5 = 8 cycles an hour = 16 units an hour Sell price on a good day is 150k each, so 16 x 150k each = 2.4m an hour 8 miner 2s x 90 units/minute = 43,200 m^3 per hour Massive Scordite is .15 m^3 which = 288,000 scordite x (2.3 tri 7.1 pyer) = 4.4m an hour Better ores go up from 4.4m, but you cannot be afk for longer than around 1 1/2 minutes. -------------------
Caldorous	Posted - 2005.02.03 20:18:00 - [4] ok.. i'll continue my neverending hunt of jaspet ----------------------------- 2005.03.13 01:11:29combatYour 350mm Railgun I perfectly strikes Asteroid (Veldspar), wrecking for 0.0 damage.
Jonas Bane	Posted - 2005.02.03 22:35:00 - [5] I always thought ice mining would be more profitable than it is now. You need high level skills and specialized equipment in order to do it. But I suppose the miners that do ice mining don't value their time very much.
Feronia	Posted - 2005.02.03 23:09:00 - [6] The only reason for ice prices being so low is the lack of any serious demand. Most POS owners don't even consider buying ice, because they can't without turning this adventure into a money sink.
Jocca Quinn	Posted - 2005.02.03 23:19:00 - [7] Originally by: Jonas Bane I always thought ice mining would be more profitable than it is now. You need high level skills and specialized equipment in order to do it. But I suppose the miners that do ice mining don't value their time very much. I do, which is why I've given up on Ice Mining. I feel for the POS owners in that they cannot make a profit if Ice prices exceed X isk. But to be frank unless I see a profit comenserate with the amount of skills I have invested in Large Barge I will continue to mine Omber or Scordite. JQ none of us are free as long as one of us is chained none of us are free
Dloan	Posted - 2005.02.04 09:31:00 - [8] Originally by: Jonas Bane I always thought ice mining would be more profitable than it is now. You need high level skills and specialized equipment in order to do it. But I suppose the miners that do ice mining don't value their time very much. It's not the skills, it's not the time, it's 2 main reasons :- 1) With the required skills, which only take a bit of time to aquire, anyone can mine ice. There is no risk involved unless you run foul of some barge killing berks. Compare that to mining high end ores where, even with the necessary skills, it's off limits to many and potentially dangerous on your own. People aren't prepared to pay large sums of money for the POS equivalent of veldspar and, like veldspar, if prices increase, there is a vast pool of Empire people who can fill the demand. 2) It's hard to make a profit on a POS and paying for ice is a large chunk of that so prices need to be low. If prices increase, people would either take down their POSes or mine what they need for themselves.
Bellac	Posted - 2005.02.04 09:38:00 - [9] Originally by: Tarm 7.5 minutes (lvl 3 harvesting) = 2 units (medium barge)/cycle 60/7.5 = 8 cycles an hour = 16 units an hour Sell price on a good day is 150k each, so 16 x 150k each = 2.4m an hour 8 miner 2s x 90 units/minute = 43,200 m^3 per hour Massive Scordite is .15 m^3 which = 288,000 scordite x (2.3 tri 7.1 pyer) = 4.4m an hour Better ores go up from 4.4m, but you cannot be afk for longer than around 1 1/2 minutes. This information is currently correct - but i think it is maybe a bit misleading to compare the best BS miner in game (Apocalypse) with a medium barge. I think it is fairer to compare mining scord with the med barge as well. This makes a straight comparison with the ship that you own. So :- 3 strip miner 1s x 970 units/3 minute = 38,800 m^3 per hour (assuming all skills to 5) Massive Scordite is .15 m^3 which = 258,666 scordite x (2.3 tri 7.1 pyer) = 3.7m an hour (Assuming 100% refine) Even then though, the total for ice is still not good, and I really can't see anyone taking up the occupation to make money. I know there are other forms of ice out there which are more lucrative, but if you are going to 0.0 to mine ice you will make nowhere near the sort of isk that can be made from mining ark or bist, and the risks will be the same. I think even more levelling is needed from the devs to make ice mining a realistic option. I understand that they dont want POS so easy to own that everyone has their own personal one, but until fuel becomes easier to get or takes less time to mine for tech 2 will remain too highly priced for many players in game.
LtCol RTButts	Posted - 2005.02.04 13:15:00 - [10] Originally by: Bellac Originally by: Tarm 7.5 minutes (lvl 3 harvesting) = 2 units (medium barge)/cycle 60/7.5 = 8 cycles an hour = 16 units an hour Sell price on a good day is 150k each, so 16 x 150k each = 2.4m an hour 8 miner 2s x 90 units/minute = 43,200 m^3 per hour Massive Scordite is .15 m^3 which = 288,000 scordite x (2.3 tri 7.1 pyer) = 4.4m an hour Better ores go up from 4.4m, but you cannot be afk for longer than around 1 1/2 minutes. This information is currently correct - but i think it is maybe a bit misleading to compare the best BS miner in game (Apocalypse) with a medium barge. I think it is fairer to compare mining scord with the med barge as well. This makes a straight comparison with the ship that you own. So :- 3 strip miner 1s x 970 units/3 minute = 38,800 m^3 per hour (assuming all skills to 5) Massive Scordite is .15 m^3 which = 258,666 scordite x (2.3 tri 7.1 pyer) = 3.7m an hour (Assuming 100% refine) Even then though, the total for ice is still not good, and I really can't see anyone taking up the occupation to make money. I know there are other forms of ice out there which are more lucrative, but if you are going to 0.0 to mine ice you will make nowhere near the sort of isk that can be made from mining ark or bist, and the risks will be the same. I think even more levelling is needed from the devs to make ice mining a realistic option. I understand that they dont want POS so easy to own that everyone has their own personal one, but until fuel becomes easier to get or takes less time to mine for tech 2 will remain too highly priced for many players in game. ve not recalculated the math here, but if u use a large barge in basic belts, than u would use it in icebelts too. this means u do 3.6m ISK per hour with the numbers here. that icemining isn't very profitable ... no question. icemining will be more interesting when it is used more for different parts + attacks re possible onto POS. with the need of stronthium and so on ...
Hiemain	Posted - 2005.02.04 16:18:00 - [11] i'm french so i will try to explain me clearly... POS IS VERY COOL BUT POS ARE VERY TOO EXPANSIVE and CCP MUST RECONSIDER THAT. IT TAKE TOO MUCH TIME TO REACH THAT LEVEL IN THIS GAME TO HAVE POS 2years of full play to do that is to long!!
Jim Steele	Posted - 2005.02.04 16:22:00 - [12] i suppose it might be profitable if you own a POS and start producing complex reactions or even have a refinary base and suck up crockite, saying that though the best refine yield is 75% which is rubbish imho.... Death to the Galante
Sc0rpion	Posted - 2005.02.04 16:30:00 - [13] If you have the required skills to mine ice, you can make more money mining regular ore. Why? Because right now, POS are nothing but expensive safespots. Pointless POS = low ice prices = waste of skills. "The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously." -Freidrich Nietzche
Harisdrop	Posted - 2005.02.04 20:08:00 - [14] Once these Auxillary power arrays come in game we will see POS in a different light. When you can have multiple reactions running . Then everything we know now will be a memory and POS will rule the economy! -------------------------- Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies
LtCol RTButts	Posted - 2005.02.04 21:30:00 - [15] Originally by: Harisdrop Once these Auxillary power arrays come in game we will see POS in a different light. When you can have multiple reactions running . Then everything we know now will be a memory and POS will rule the economy! do they give power or CPU ?
Mari Y'Tuk	Posted - 2005.02.05 00:12:00 - [16] there are ones that give both power AND cpu, but they require more ice (more ice products per power/cpu unit than a control tower) and more goods also better, (maybe tech2, maybe tech1) towers will be coming soonTM My Production Spreadsheet, Most T1 Bp data, Located here.
Daktor	Posted - 2005.02.05 05:02:00 - [17] Originally by: Bellac Originally by: Tarm 3 strip miner 1s x 970 units/3 minute = 38,800 m^3 per hour (assuming all skills to 5) Massive Scordite is .15 m^3 which = 258,666 scordite x (2.3 tri 7.1 pyer) = 3.7m an hour (Assuming 100% refine) Actually, it's 58,200 m^3/hour (3 miners * 970 units/cycle * 1 cycle/3minutes * 60 minutes) so 5.5m/hour. And to get 7.5m/cycle on ice miner requires skill level 5, not 3 as previously stated.
LtCol RTButts	Posted - 2005.02.05 14:02:00 - [18] Originally by: Mari Y'Tuk there are ones that give both power AND cpu, but they require more ice (more ice products per power/cpu unit than a control tower) and more goods also better, (maybe tech2, maybe tech1) towers will be coming soonTM u ve a URL for that information ?
LtCol RTButts	Posted - 2005.02.05 14:05:00 - [19] Originally by: Daktor Originally by: Bellac Originally by: Tarm 3 strip miner 1s x 970 units/3 minute = 38,800 m^3 per hour (assuming all skills to 5) Massive Scordite is .15 m^3 which = 258,666 scordite x (2.3 tri 7.1 pyer) = 3.7m an hour (Assuming 100% refine) Actually, it's 58,200 m^3/hour (3 miners * 970 units/cycle * 1 cycle/3minutes * 60 minutes) so 5.5m/hour. And to get 7.5m/cycle on ice miner requires skill level 5, not 3 as previously stated. ... and still not top of the hill. mSM II with the tech1 or tech2 chrystals re really rocking the place :P
Keva	Posted - 2005.02.06 15:26:00 - [20] Originally by: Harisdrop Once these Auxillary power arrays come in game we will see POS in a different light. When you can have multiple reactions running . Then everything we know now will be a memory and POS will rule the economy! These won't help. Running a bunch of these will simply require more ice. more ice = more cost for the pos. so now you can run 2 reactors instead of 1 reactor..... but you are using double the cpu/power so you have doubled your dialy cost. Since POS are losing money you now are able to lose money at twice the normal rate. I would love to buy ice and pay enough that ice miners could at least make equal money than scordite. The simple truth is that ccp screwed pos up in some many ways its not funny. There are 3 MASSIVE problems with POS. Until they are resolved ice miners will never make any isk. First a POS can produce 4800 processed materials / day. It doesn't matter if you got the best moon mins or the worst you still produce 4800 processed material / day. Not any less not any more. ICompare that to mining veld and mining ark. If regular mining was like moon mining then Veld woudl give trit 100 trit /m3 and Ark would give 100 mega /m3. See the problem? Your cheap mineral is no more plentiful than your most expensive mineral. T Second massive problem with POS is cost. Even at current ice prices (which are too low IMHO) it cost about 9 million / day to run a POS. In that day you produce 4800 processed materials. That means your cost / unit of processed material is 1,800. At those prices it is imposslbe to compete with cheap agent loot. Third passive problem with POS is the unbalance between simple and advanced reactions. simple reactions spit out 200 units per hour while advanced reactions take in 100. (If you didn't know simple reactions turn moon mins into processed materials. advanced reactions turn processed materials into advanced materials. factories then combine advanced materials to product T2 components). Do you see the problem? Since a POS running simple reactions produces 2x as much as a POS running advanced reactions that means it takes 2 POS running advanced reactions to "use up" all the materials supplied by the basic POS. So for example sylramic fibers (advanced material used in T2 armor) POS A: produces 4800 ceramic powder per day POS B: produces 4800 hexit per day now you got the 2 processed materials you just need to combine them.... however the input for sylramic fibers is 2400 ceramic 2400 hexite per day so... you need POS C: takes 2400 C + 2400H and outputs sylramic fibers POS D: rakes 2400 C + 2400H and outputs sylramic fibers essentially you now need 4 POS instead of 3 to produce this simple T2 material. Remember each POS is costing 9 million / day so a 33% increase in those costs really affects the final product price. So combine all these problems and POS are very slow at production and the produce massively overpriced T2 comps. Now agent runners sell their "loot" for 1/2 or 1/3 of the BREAK EVEN price of a POS. That combined with the stranglehold on T2 BPO (hence low production runs) means that POS simple can't compete. Until POS are profitable there will be no real demand for ice. As long as demand is low prices will be low. Get CCP to fix POS and you will fix the ice price problem too. (If my POS could produce twice as much I would be willing to pay 50% more for ice).
Ishtari	Posted - 2005.02.06 17:48:00 - [21] Scordite is better then ice unless you can sell ice for at least 400k a unit. So at the moment with ice prices around 120k NOT.
Snake Jankins	Posted - 2005.02.07 11:26:00 - [22] Edited by: Snake Jankins on 07/02/2005 12:25:01 Edited by: Snake Jankins on 07/02/2005 11:36:17 Originally by: Ishtari Scordite is better then ice unless you can sell ice for at least 400k a unit. So at the moment with ice prices around 120k NOT. I did the calculation for my alt last night. He has a medium mining barge (skills astrogeology IV, ice harvesting II I think). And I used the eve guardian mineral prices (tritanium 2,07 isk/unit, pyerite 6,38 isk/unit) and refining skill V, refining Efficiency V, 75% equipment, perfect standing (!) Ok, the calcualtion for THIS char: 1 strip-miner-I yields 850m¦/180seconds 850 m¦ Scordite = 5666 units Scordite => 74055 isk 74055isk/180sec = 411 isk/second from one strip-miner-I mining Scordite 1 ice-harvester-I yields 1 unit ice every 540 seconds with THIS char, so 411 isk/second * 540 seconds/unit_ice = 222165 isk/unit_ice So for an average char with a medium mining barge 222165 isk per unit ice would be profitable. Ice mining is really easy because you don't have to change the position and you don't have to move ore very often, so I think that even a lower price like 200k isk/unit would be a nice income. And not everyone refines Scordite with refining skills at V and perfect standing. (/edit and I've used only ice harvesting skill II for this calculation, but also considered no mining drones for Scordite) I've forgotten another point, again for this char with one strip-miner/ice-harvester: 850m¦ Ore/180 seconds = 4.72 m¦ Ore/second 1000m¦ Ice/540 seconds = 1.85 m¦ Ice/second => So Ice is better regarding transport. And using 2 insta-jumps between the station and one ice asteroid and doing the transport directly without an indy might be an option, too. So I think, ice would become an interesting 'ore' for the average mining barge user in empire space if the price goes beyond 200,000 isk/unit. P.S.: I hope that everyone could follow me, my English is not the best
Karl Borhman	Posted - 2005.02.07 16:34:00 - [23] Your best option for selling ice successfully is to mine in a place with the ice, refine it on-site, and sell the stuff in massive unit sell orders at reasonable prices. Sometimes it takes a while, but if you price it right it will sell. And yes, it can be more profitable than scord. __________________________________ Mining ... the other white meat. __________________________________
Ishtari	Posted - 2005.02.07 17:58:00 - [24] My calculation is based on large barge with maxed skills across the board. Meaning barge, astrogeology, mining, mining drones, drone interfacing, refining efficiency, etc. Also doing 0% loss 0% we take refines. But as you say ice can be more profitable if you find a good buyer.
Whitestar1	Posted - 2005.02.08 13:00:00 - [25] If there are a group of people mining ice and refining it then selling it on the market then they could look at maybe seeing if there are any corps with a POS that are interested in forming a contract to buy the ice from them. You would then get a weekly income and they get their fuel for the ice advert for fuel contract We live for the one we die for the one
Whitestar1	Posted - 2005.02.08 13:01:00 - [26] Edited by: Whitestar1 on 08/02/2005 13:01:14 double post We live for the one we die for the one
Dur Spleenman	Posted - 2005.02.10 21:25:00 - [27] Try selling Liquid Ozone. I got 1000 isk/unit for 825 units not long ago in a major empire system. Still not as profitable as mining zydrine and mega though. Shimmy!
Feronia	Posted - 2005.02.10 22:30:00 - [28] Originally by: Dur Spleenman Try selling Liquid Ozone. I got 1000 isk/unit for 825 units not long ago in a major empire system. Mmmm, that explains the 10 % priceboost of Liquid Ozone this week
Bellac	Posted - 2005.02.11 09:56:00 - [29] Edited by: Bellac on 11/02/2005 10:01:29 The real problem with ice mining is that it is only a means to an end, which is - To Keep Your Station Fueled. Bare in mind that for a week there is in the region of 20 hrs mining/week. This can be divided up between as many miners as you want, but the costs remain the same. So by this logic to compare the time with mining common ores in empire the cost of fuelling a station for a week is about 100,000,000 isk. (Based on the fact that you can make 5 mill isk an hour mining scord) Even if you find some better ice, this will reduce the mining time for ozone and heavy water but the supply time of isotopes can't be reduced so it will only save about 5 hours at best on this time, bringing the mining cost down to about 75,000,000 isk. Now the problem comes when you realise that there are only 4 moon materials that produce enough profit directly, and another 4 materials where if you had two ore more you will at least break even. The remaining 12 moon materials are just not worth getting out of bed for. In fact if you are harvesting something atmospheric gases or hydrocarbons i doubt you will even cover the cost of the required industrial components. There realy needs to be some sort of sweetener for POS owners to make the harvesting of the more common materials more lucrative. If not then there is surely going to be a shortage as nobody will continue throwing money away. People need to remeber that without the common moon materials the rare materials are useless.
Lagartija Nick	Posted - 2005.02.11 12:23:00 - [30] Originally by: Feronia Originally by: Dur Spleenman Try selling Liquid Ozone. I got 1000 isk/unit for 825 units not long ago in a major empire system. Mmmm, that explains the 10 % priceboost of Liquid Ozone this week Only 10% Everyone doubled the price where I'm at. Fortunatly, I don't have to buy from ice miners, and am now mining my own. Take that you price gouging ****ers!

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