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Dionysus Davinci	Posted - 2005.02.04 16:12:00 - [61] Edited by: Dionysus Davinci on 04/02/2005 16:14:02 Originally by: DeMundus Edited by: DeMundus on 04/02/2005 15:38:25 SIGNED!!! -to many do this, I fly interceptors and assult frigs and sometimes I manage tho go up against a BS who can't do anything against me... then usualy he/ she will log in the time it takes for me to destroy the BS with my small guns/ missils etc. BTW GF-ing to those who stay - some outtank me until iam out of ammo, some take the beating and go down Who flies a BS and can't out tank a interceptor or assault frig? (Hehe, Gankedeon setup)
Alberta	Posted - 2005.02.04 17:37:00 - [62] Edited by: Alberta on 04/02/2005 17:37:58 Originally by: Dasher Prime Edited by: Dasher Prime on 04/02/2005 12:16:28 There is a tear in my bear, cause I am crying for you dear....stupid pirates...look at the players hand book. It is in the game...its the true last line of saving ones arse againt lousy Player killers when one does not want to engage in PVP. Looking in the instruction booklet I got with the game I see that in chapter 3 there's a section called "Ways to Make Money". There's a sub-section called "Loot", here's some of what it has to say. "There are two ways to acquire loot in outer space: Blow up other ships, or find loot cargo containers. If you blow up a ship carrying viable goods, a diamond symbol will appear in space. The same symbol appears if you locate a cargo container to salvage. (Note: be careful shooting and looting other player ships and cargo containers within high security systems! You will suffer a security status hit, the local police will be alerted and you might even be fired upon.)" I can find a section called "Logging Out" too. It doesn't mention anything about this being a useful tool to save yourself in a sticky situation since there's a chance you will disappear from the game before you die. I can't find anywhere else in the manual that does either. What this suggests to me is that killing players as a way of making money is an intentional part of the game. Logging out to save your ship isn't. We're just waiting for CCP to acknowledge that their current measures for preventing it are not working properly. Quote: And STFU I pay my money to play this game I can go anywhere I want to in the game. And LOG off anytime I want to. I don't see anybody trying to deny your right to try and go anywhere or to log off at any time. What we want is for you to accept that there are consequences of choosing to go to certain places and that logging off is not intended as a way of avoiding them. Therefore the fact that it can be used in this way should be fixed. My Thoughts on Game Balance
senz	Posted - 2005.02.04 17:39:00 - [63] signed. EVETrance Radio - designed to enhance your flying experience.... http://radio.evesound.net:8000/evetrance.ogg.m3u
Demarcus	Posted - 2005.02.04 17:43:00 - [64] This is a big problem on Xbox Live as well but there you take a rank hit and risk feedback that will get your account blocked. ------------------------------------- You are all worthless, and weak.
Dukath	Posted - 2005.02.04 18:33:00 - [65] The easiest solution is increasing the timer were your ship disappears to 10 minutes. Your ship already warps out if you crash. It takes someone with probes at least 8 minutes to deploy them all and scan for you. So that would give them 2 minutes to kill you at your 'safespot'. In those 10 minutes you have plenty of time to recover from your crash to desktop. If you were warpscrambled and you would not have crashed/logged chances are very high that you would have died anyway. Of course the best solution would be full persistency since that would also solve all the other logoff tactics. We now have POS and conquerable stations. So anyone doing operations in 0.0 has the means of placing a POS there. Log out inside the bubble of the POS and you will be safe. Dock at a station and you will be safe. Th excuse of having to do 20 jumps to be safe is now invalid thanks to the POS. People who crash already have 10 minutes to log in again as I explained above. hell if they make the warp out distance more than 5AU its a lot more time since 3AU probes wont be enough to track someone down. There is no reason whatsoever not to implement full persistency.
Velsharoon	Posted - 2005.02.04 18:37:00 - [66] signed
RollinDutchMasters	Posted - 2005.02.04 18:42:00 - [67] Originally by: I Spy4You Let's say I'm flying a Retriever, and I have it outfitted with 2 Tech-2 strip miners. Some yutz jumps me because it so turns out that they've declared war on my corp/alliance. I'm in Empire, so my escort consists of a hauler... neither ship is particularly equipped to challenge anything tougher than a frigate. This retriever is only worth 3.5 mil, and is insured. I was lucky, I bought the strip miner 2s when they were relatively cheap... 20 mil each. Now they're going for 100+ mil each. There is no way in hell I am going to sit there and let this foe blow up that Retriever. I'll log in a heartbeat... not only that, I'll activate an alt immediately. So let me get this straight. You think logging isnt lame if you have: Failed to pay adequate attention to your sorroundings, and get jumped. Failed to provide yourself with any defense at all. Failed to recognize the risks associated with being a member of your corp/alliance. Failed to fly something you can afford to lose after faulures 1-3. I personally think that being dumb is NOT an excuse for obviously abusing the game mechanics. In fact, being dumb really isnt an excuse for much at all. Oh, and logging an alt on to get your ship away is an exploit and recognized as such. You might not want to jump up and down on the forums screaming "Hey look at me, I use sploits!". Originally by: Sochin CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
Dave Tehsulei	Posted - 2005.02.04 18:49:00 - [68] signed ----------------------------
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.02.04 20:09:00 - [69] Originally by: Dionysus Davinci Edited by: Dionysus Davinci on 04/02/2005 16:14:02 Originally by: DeMundus Edited by: DeMundus on 04/02/2005 15:38:25 SIGNED!!! -to many do this, I fly interceptors and assult frigs and sometimes I manage tho go up against a BS who can't do anything against me... then usualy he/ she will log in the time it takes for me to destroy the BS with my small guns/ missils etc. BTW GF-ing to those who stay - some outtank me until iam out of ammo, some take the beating and go down Who flies a BS and can't out tank a interceptor or assault frig? (Hehe, Gankedeon setup) Nubs mining in apocs are crunchy. Dukath, this isn't what this thread is about. I for one would not be playing Eve the day it goes to persistant ships at all times, because I often have to leave suddenly for RL issues. This thread is about a SINGLE problem - logging in combat, when warp scrambled. "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
DeMundus	Posted - 2005.02.04 20:25:00 - [70] Originally by: Dionysus Davinci Edited by: Dionysus Davinci on 04/02/2005 16:14:02 Originally by: DeMundus Edited by: DeMundus on 04/02/2005 15:38:25 SIGNED!!! -to many do this, I fly interceptors and assult frigs and sometimes I manage tho go up against a BS who can't do anything against me... then usualy he/ she will log in the time it takes for me to destroy the BS with my small guns/ missils etc. BTW GF-ing to those who stay - some outtank me until iam out of ammo, some take the beating and go down Who flies a BS and can't out tank a interceptor or assault frig? (Hehe, Gankedeon setup) The ppl who log it seems
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2005.02.04 20:30:00 - [71] Signed. But still, i think it wont solve a problem. I would say that if you are targeted by another player your logoff timer should be like 5-10 minutes.
Damajink	Posted - 2005.02.04 20:32:00 - [72] SIGNED FOR OK
Attrezzo Pox	Posted - 2005.02.04 21:54:00 - [73] Signed.... Additionally that ship should be targetable until unscrambled
MegaJ	Posted - 2005.02.05 09:50:00 - [74] SIGNED SIGNED SIGNED I hate those weak ppl who log off quick when they know they r gonna get a proper PWNING. I believe the quick dissapearing is actually done by loading another character on the same account after logging the one being played on. Which seems totally messed up imo and a def exploit. [-SAS-] on Eve-Kills
Dukath	Posted - 2005.02.05 10:51:00 - [75] Originally by: Maya RkellDukath, this isn't what this thread is about. I for one would not be playing Eve the day it goes to persistant ships at all times, because I often have to leave suddenly for RL issues. This thread is about a SINGLE problem - logging in combat, when warp scrambled.[/quote And its this 'solving single problems without looking at the bigger issue' that is ruining eve completely. Why look for a set of forced half-assed solution to one single specific problems with together unbalance and screw up th game when you can solve the issue together with a lot of other issues at the same time with one single change?
Eddie Elch	Posted - 2005.02.05 15:57:00 - [76] The game is becoming more and more increasingly leaned towards PVP. A good thing in my mind, a single server like EVE has should be PVP at all times. But that won't work if people can simply Log at the first sight of trouble, I am thinking of Gate Gankers here who suddenly have a fleet turn up. Hitting esc and exiting a game should not be an option if another Player has you targetted or is in the process of targeting you... therefore, Signed in PVP. PVE is an exception. Come on CCP, tred on some toes and show some balls... ---------------------------------------------- Life - Don't tell me about Life - Marvin
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.02.05 17:18:00 - [77] Originally by: Dukath Originally by: Maya RkellDukath, this isn't what this thread is about. I for one would not be playing Eve the day it goes to persistant ships at all times, because I often have to leave suddenly for RL issues. This thread is about a SINGLE problem - logging in combat, when warp scrambled.[/quote And its this 'solving single problems without looking at the bigger issue' that is ruining eve completely. Why look for a set of forced half-assed solution to one single specific problems with together unbalance and screw up th game when you can solve the issue together with a lot of other issues at the same time with one single change? This isn't half-arsed. It's a TARGETED, KISS, soloution to a clear and present problem. It even makes sense! You want to force a change which will forever exclude the vast majority of players from 0.0 because they have RL lives. THAT is half-arsed. And half-baked. "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
Dukath	Posted - 2005.02.05 18:13:00 - [78] - if you are scrambled the timer does not start and your ship won't disappear. I say its a half arsed solution because it still leaves a lot of holes open. 1) i am scrambled and I crash. So I won't disappear. In the meantime my friends killt he scrambling ship. But since i don't disappear I'm still killed, not fair. 2) I warp to a planet and ai log out immediately. You see where I warp to and send an inty who is waiting there before i leave warp. You scramble me. Howevere since i logged during warp my ship disappears after 2 seconds, even though you scrambled me because the timer started already in warp. 3) I crash during a fight and I am scrambled. I have serious connection problems and cannot reconnect. Luckily for me my friends won the fight before my ship died. Since I can't log in my ship just stays there sitting there forever. My friends can't protect it forever so after 4 hours sitting at the gate my ship is destroyed. The problem is not 'people logging off while scrambled'. The problem is people logging off to avoid dying whether they are already scrambled or still being hunted down. Using logging off as a tactic. The logging off while scrambled is only a tiny subproblem.
RollinDutchMasters	Posted - 2005.02.05 18:40:00 - [79] Edited by: RollinDutchMasters on 05/02/2005 18:41:12 Originally by: Dukath - if you are scrambled the timer does not start and your ship won't disappear. I say its a half arsed solution because it still leaves a lot of holes open. 1) i am scrambled and I crash. So I won't disappear. In the meantime my friends killt he scrambling ship. But since i don't disappear I'm still killed, not fair. 2) I warp to a planet and ai log out immediately. You see where I warp to and send an inty who is waiting there before i leave warp. You scramble me. Howevere since i logged during warp my ship disappears after 2 seconds, even though you scrambled me because the timer started already in warp. 3) I crash during a fight and I am scrambled. I have serious connection problems and cannot reconnect. Luckily for me my friends won the fight before my ship died. Since I can't log in my ship just stays there sitting there forever. My friends can't protect it forever so after 4 hours sitting at the gate my ship is destroyed. The problem is not 'people logging off while scrambled'. The problem is people logging off to avoid dying whether they are already scrambled or still being hunted down. Using logging off as a tactic. The logging off while scrambled is only a tiny subproblem. I'm sorry, I think that you've misinterpreted how this should work. If you are scrambled by another player, you do not warp off and you do not disappear. If you become unscrambled, then your ship warps to a safespot, as it does now, and the 2 minute timer starts. If you are scrambled, but not by any players, then the 2 minute timer starts. It would obviously stop if a player scrambles you. Basically, its exactly as the current system works, except that if youre scrambled by another player, you do not disappear, ever. Just like now, if you become unscrambled, you warp to a safespot. Once you are unscrambled, the 2 minute timer starts (unless you are scrambled again before your ship manages to warp out). Originally by: Sochin CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
Dust Puppy	Posted - 2005.02.05 18:42:00 - [80] Originally by: RollinDutchMasters I'm sorry, I think that you've misinterpreted how this should work. If you are scrambled by another player, you do not warp off and you do not disappear. If you become unscrambled, then your ship warps to a safespot, as it does now, and the 2 minute timer starts. If you are scrambled, but not by any players, then the 2 minute timer starts. It would obviously stop if a player scrambles you. Basically, its exactly as the current system works, except that if youre scrambled by another player, you do not disappear, ever. Just like now, if you become unscrambled, you warp to a safespot. Once you are unscrambled, the 2 minute timer starts (unless you are scrambled again before your ship manages to warp out). How about if you are scrambled, then unscrambled and warp out and are mysterously found and scramble again? Bah minor problem though __________ Capacitor research
HavokTBP	Posted - 2005.02.05 18:43:00 - [81] Well I've done it vs concord before :P Anyways I thought that was fixed a while ago, If you logged in space your ship would try to warp to a offgrid location to avoid random attacks an then your ship would dissappear, an it wouldn't go anywhere if it was being jammed.... Not dissappear right when you log off? Member of the Curse Alliance before the Corruption Leader of The Black Plague.
RollinDutchMasters	Posted - 2005.02.05 18:44:00 - [82] Edited by: RollinDutchMasters on 05/02/2005 18:47:38 Originally by: Dust Puppy How about if you are scrambled, then unscrambled and warp out and are mysterously found and scramble again? Bah minor problem though If you are scrambled by a player, you dont have a logout timer. That is IMO, the best way to fix this. Everything else can stay the same, but if you log/CTD while scrambled, then your ship will not be moving. Originally by: HavokTBP Anyways I thought that was fixed a while ago, If you logged in space your ship would try to warp to a offgrid location to avoid random attacks an then your ship would dissappear, an it wouldn't go anywhere if it was being jammed.... Not dissappear right when you log off? Yeah, except that even though your ship doesnt warp off, a 2 minute timer starts, the end of which will cause your ship to completely disappear. Not warp off, just vanish. Originally by: Sochin CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
HavokTBP	Posted - 2005.02.05 18:50:00 - [83] I see, well, just kill it before 2mins then lol problem sovled. Member of the Curse Alliance before the Corruption Leader of The Black Plague.
Zenst	Posted - 2005.02.05 19:55:00 - [84] From a PVP perspective, without a doubt, but PVE (i.e. NPC's) then no as this does help prevent allot of ship lost due to node crash type of petitions. ItÆs a tough one as far as code, as there would have to be two values, NPC scramble and Player scramble. Now the issue is when you have PVP were NPC's are involved (attacking miners, gates, NPCers). Too address this I suggest something along the lines of Scrambled when online == NPC+Player scramble strength and when logged/crashed only the player scramble strength counts. Another way to handle this would be all NPC's stop shooting and or aggressing when any player in the grid drops connection. Something that has to be considered is how good is CCP's detection of a client initiated disconnect via log off or via a timeout. If they are accurate and given that if you lose a ship due to node crash such detail was noted, code along the lines of if a player timeout then any NPC's that have said player locked or aggressed in any way should just vanish. Maybe this would be fairest approach as it well plicate any node crash ship lose issues in a way any petition would be handled but automatically. The other side of the fence is PVP were say a pirate attacks a miner in a belt. Now if said miner logs then the NPC's will stay and carry on assuming the miner is scrambled either by a player or the NPC's. If they crash in such situation, then the NPC's will disappear and just be case of the player scrambling and they will learn to be a bit more reactive rather than panic reactive. Bottom line it needs to fine a good balance to prevent undue petitions and hardship and at the same time prevent any form of unfair exploitation.
Nyphur	Posted - 2005.02.05 20:27:00 - [85] As much as I don't like signing these things, this one gets my wholehearted approval. If you can tank your enemy for two minutes at the moment, you can just quit and you'll disappear from the universe in front of your enemy's eyes before you get destroyed. This hasn't been much of a problem so far, but now there are lots of ships which are capable of tanking battleships or small fleets for two minutes. CCP are heading toward longer, more drawn out battles, and that makes some kind of system where you cannot simply log out required.
Oriox	Posted - 2005.02.05 21:07:00 - [86] So many signatures and no CCP input...kinda sad. I don't PvP (yet) so I stay in 0.5 and up and avoid corp wars. Simple. When I do start pvping I hope this is fixed. signed
Imran	Posted - 2005.02.05 21:45:00 - [87] Signed
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.02.06 03:35:00 - [88] Originally by: Zenst From a PVP perspective, without a doubt, but PVE (i.e. NPC's) then no as this does help prevent allot of ship lost due to node crash type of petitions. ItÆs a tough one as far as code, as there would have to be two values, NPC scramble and Player scramble. Psst, the game allready knows the different between players and NPC's, hence the differing timers. No extra coding along those lines necessary. "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
Betamax II	Posted - 2005.02.06 03:42:00 - [89] Im going to sign this. I try to keep away from PVP because my mining lasers never seem to bite deep enough to score a kill, but I'm tired of getting reports from fighters about large pirate blockades vanishing when a posse turns up. Kill the logoff and perhaps we'll start to see more interesting massed battle vids and reports of epic good/not quite as good as all that clashes.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.02.06 03:43:00 - [90] Dukath, you seem to think I have a grand design when I'm proposing this change. Not so. "1) i am scrambled and I crash. So I won't disappear. In the meantime my friends killt he scrambling ship. But since i don't disappear I'm still killed, not fair." And logging in combat is? Crashes happen for many reasons, most of which we cannot control. We can, however, control the game mechanics. By opposing this change, bluntly, you are supporting peoples "RIGHT" to log. Do you really want to be supporting the loggers? "2) I warp to a planet and ai log out immediately. You see where I warp to and send an inty who is waiting there before i leave warp. You scramble me. Howevere since i logged during warp my ship disappears after 2 seconds, even though you scrambled me because the timer started already in warp." So? You're ass-uming this change is aimed at that. It's not. "3) I crash during a fight and I am scrambled. I have serious connection problems and cannot reconnect. Luckily for me my friends won the fight before my ship died. Since I can't log in my ship just stays there sitting there forever. My friends can't protect it forever so after 4 hours sitting at the gate my ship is destroyed." If you are unscrambled, the ship warps away. Some friends if they warp scramble your ship for 4 hours. The problem I AM PROPOSING TO ADDRESS is a specific, EASY TO SOLVE subset of "logging in combat" called 'people logging off while scrambled'. I'm proposing a "half-arsed" change as you call it, which is TARGETED, SPECIFIC change to specifically avoid issues with other game system. If all you want to do are full-arsed changes, then go ahead and post them. In detail...and get people to sign up to them. Please note that there will NEVER be anything LIKE overwhelming support for your proposed change, which would mean any player who has a RL wouldn't enter 0.0. This specific change has pretty overwhelming support. "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"

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