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Skiff, what happened to the +2 warp strength bonus?

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Pinstar Colton Sweet Asteroid Acres 246	Posted - 2012.08.29 17:19:00 - [1] - Quote While the topic is still a matter of debate for many people, I have a generally positive opinion of the mining barge/exhumer changes. The solo vs fleet mining tradeoffs between the retriever/mack and covetor/hulk make for a really meaningful choice depending on your circumstances. However, the poor procurer/skiff still seems a little left out. While it is, indeed, basically ungankable in high sec (or rather, it is completely unprofitable to gank) that trait alone does not seem to make up for its lack of yield and cargo. What seems odd is that they removed the original +2 warp strength bonus from the ship. While warp strength in high isn't really needed at all, since you are relying on your massive tank to keep you alive while Concord does its job... adding that back in would breathe new life into the procurer/skiff: Solo low/null/wh mining. With that massive tank, you'd be able generally survive against the stronger rats in those belts. In addition, if you were to be attacked by a player pirate, you would generally be able to tank their damage and warp out even if they brought one or two points. Of course the low slots could be fitted with additional stabs if you wanted to be extra safe...or you could fit them for yield and pray your attackers don't bring more than 2 points. This would preserve dynamic fitting choices with the procurer/skiff while further emphasizing their stated role as a "Super tanky high-risk mining ship". After all, what good is all that tank outside of high if it is easily pointed and worn down. And of course...ultimately it would be an inferior choice to an orca boosted hulk protected by combat ships...but it might encourage more solo industrialists to wander into low/null/whs as they would have a fighting chance to escape and still get a decent yield. On the flip side, pirates who are specifically skiff hunting might know to fit extra points and equip for longer, sustained DPS rather than high-alpha. They too would have legitimate chance against an unwary or ill-prepared miner. In the cat-and-mouse game that is low sec, there is no shame in learning to be a better mouse.
Riot Girl State War Academy Caldari State 36	Posted - 2012.08.29 17:27:00 - [2] - Quote Yeah they should probably have a larger drone bay and some damage bonuses too. Maybe you could use them for running level 4s.
Pinstar Colton Sweet Asteroid Acres 246	Posted - 2012.08.29 17:32:00 - [3] - Quote I'm not suggesting the skiff be able to fight back outside of high, just have a reasonable chance of fleeing. In the cat-and-mouse game that is low sec, there is no shame in learning to be a better mouse.
Riot Girl State War Academy Caldari State 36	Posted - 2012.08.29 17:43:00 - [4] - Quote I don't consider 5 points to be a 'reasonable chance'.
Pinstar Colton Sweet Asteroid Acres 246	Posted - 2012.08.29 17:59:00 - [5] - Quote Most pirates carry 1-2 points solo. Any more and they give up valueble mid slots that could be used for shields, webs, cap boosters etc. A pirate must go out of their way and slightly gimp their normal PVP ability to fit the additional points...but doing so will let them to trap and burn down a high yield skiff. A skiff pilot who is paranoid about pirates packing 3+ points can sacrifice yield for STABS, thus allowing them escape in those situations. A really hardcore pirate can really gimp their PVP fit and carry 5 points to ensure a skiff doesn't get away no matter what. Even then they still run the risk that the skiff is just bait and they are suddenly fighting another combat ship that isn't overburdned with carrying 3 point modules. All in all, if a solo pirate warps to a solo skiff, the outcome of that encounter is not instantly known by either party unless they know each other's fitting. The choice of fitting on both sides is not 100% clear. In other words: Dynamic and uncertain combat = healthy combat. If the skiffs always got away, pirates wouldn't bother, and if the pirates always won, skiffs wouldn't try in the first place. At the moment, with no warp strength bonus, a skiff would have to sacrifice their yield to get, at most +2 strength, that a pirate could easily overcome with just one extra point module. Since fitting two STABs decreases the reward of mining outside of high sec while not greatly decreasing the risk, you don't see skiff/procurer pilots even trying. In the cat-and-mouse game that is low sec, there is no shame in learning to be a better mouse.
Riot Girl State War Academy Caldari State 36	Posted - 2012.08.29 18:38:00 - [6] - Quote I can't agree with your logic. A pirate would have to waste all their midslots AND get in a 10km range (probably without a prop mod) before the miner warps off (probably already aligned) just to have a chance of pointing him. The only other option would be to be in a gang of 3-5 guys... to take on one crappy mining boat. You're saying it's fair to handicap pirates like this because it gives the miners a fair chance, but it's not fair to force miners to sacrifice their precious yield to ensure their own safety.
Mutant Caldari Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY 14	Posted - 2012.08.29 18:40:00 - [7] - Quote Or you could simply be competent and watch your scanner as well as Local. Carebears always want things spoon fed to them, I swear.
Pinstar Colton Sweet Asteroid Acres 246	Posted - 2012.08.29 18:58:00 - [8] - Quote I do that when I mine in my Retriever in low sec. I'm not asking for handouts. I'm just looking at the new mining roles and wondering if the Skiff's could be improved since they are (from what I've seen) greatly underused compared to the mack/hulk (and barge equivalents) The fact that I choose a retriever over a procurer for mining in low because the procurer is JUST as vulnerable to player pirates as the retriever, but the retriever holds much more ore and thus is the superior choice. That seems wrong given the procurer's stated goal of being the 'tanky high-risk mining ship' . In the cat-and-mouse game that is low sec, there is no shame in learning to be a better mouse.
Riot Girl State War Academy Caldari State 36	Posted - 2012.08.29 19:11:00 - [9] - Quote Pinstar Colton wrote: 'tanky high-risk mining ship' Solo mining in lowsec isn't 'high-risk'. It's just plain dumb.
Piugattuk CLOROFLORFILAPLANKTONPLATES 33	Posted - 2012.08.29 21:13:00 - [10] - Quote OK, if you want to mine in low sec please go for it, I build procurer's and and quite happy to sell you one, listen I have been all over eve lived every where, don't bother with low sec, if you want high end ores then join a null bear corp, otherwise stick warp stabs in lows, pucker up cheeks, and hope you are fast enough to get out with the pitiful rooker of ore.

William Walker House Aratus Fatal Ascension 9	Posted - 2012.08.30 06:51:00 - [11] - Quote Pinstar Colton wrote: While the topic is still a matter of debate for many people Stopped reading there. The skiff has great EHP now and is commonly used nowadays to bait people. The +2 warp strength is not necessary anymore. If you are solo in a skiff in lowsec you should be paying attention, if you are solo in a skiff in nullsec you should have friends.
Pinky Denmark The Cursed Navy 188	Posted - 2012.08.30 13:07:00 - [12] - Quote If you want to run away you have plenty slots to fit Warp Core Stabilizers and ecm...
Shereza Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 44	Posted - 2012.08.30 15:05:00 - [13] - Quote Riot Girl wrote: Yeah they should probably have a larger drone bay and some damage bonuses too. Maybe you could use them for running level 4s. [Skiff, L4] Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Gistum A-Type Medium Shield Booster Gistum A-Type Medium Shield Booster Gist B-Type EM Ward Field Gist B-Type Thermic Dissipation Field Dread Guristas Adaptive Invulnerability Field Strip Miner I Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Hammerhead II x5 The Skiff can already do L4s if you throw enough money at it. Tank is 561 DPS "omni" and it pushes out 220 DPS which is on par with drakes so in theory it ought to be able to do most L4s. Aggro will be a pain to get given that it has to run into stuff to get it, but at least the thing pushes 250m/s at top speed so rat-ramming won't take as long as in a dominix without guns, painters, or a speed booster. Presuming EFT's reporting the correct numbers. For some reason I thought the Skiff's top speed was only 90m/s, but EVE-Mon corroborates it so...
Riot Girl State War Academy Caldari State 37	Posted - 2012.08.30 15:23:00 - [14] - Quote Cool. If they had +2 warp strength, you wouldn't even have to worry about drones and frigates using warp disruptors.
Verity Sovereign Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 227	Posted - 2012.08.30 17:45:00 - [15] - Quote Shereza wrote: Riot Girl wrote: Yeah they should probably have a larger drone bay and some damage bonuses too. Maybe you could use them for running level 4s. [Skiff, L4] Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Gistum A-Type Medium Shield Booster Gistum A-Type Medium Shield Booster Gist B-Type EM Ward Field Gist B-Type Thermic Dissipation Field Dread Guristas Adaptive Invulnerability Field Strip Miner I Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Hammerhead II x5 The Skiff can already do L4s if you throw enough money at it. Tank is 561 DPS "omni" and it pushes out 220 DPS which is on par with drakes so in theory it ought to be able to do most L4s. Aggro will be a pain to get given that it has to run into stuff to get it, but at least the thing pushes 250m/s at top speed so rat-ramming won't take as long as in a dominix without guns, painters, or a speed booster. Presuming EFT's reporting the correct numbers. For some reason I thought the Skiff's top speed was only 90m/s, but EVE-Mon corroborates it so... Couldn't you throw a NOS or a TP on there to get aggro?
Fronkfurter McSheebleton Squirrel Horde Habitat Against Humanity 109	Posted - 2012.08.30 22:02:00 - [16] - Quote I think it needs the +2 warp strength back. In highsec, you can tank the mack well enough to not get ganked, and the mack is the better miner, so there's not really a reason to use the skiff. In low, null, or WH space, if the skiff's extra EHP is about as useful as it would be on an iteron...which is to say, with only drones for offensive capability, it will still die to a marauding frigate, albeit more slowly. The mack can also tank most belt rats long enough for the drones to kill them, so again, no reason to use the skiff. Triple rep Myrms are like what you'd get if you strapped a beehive to Robocop.
Shereza Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 44	Posted - 2012.08.31 02:04:00 - [17] - Quote Verity Sovereign wrote: Shereza wrote: Riot Girl wrote: Yeah they should probably have a larger drone bay and some damage bonuses too. Maybe you could use them for running level 4s. [Skiff, L4] Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Gistum A-Type Medium Shield Booster Gistum A-Type Medium Shield Booster Gist B-Type EM Ward Field Gist B-Type Thermic Dissipation Field Dread Guristas Adaptive Invulnerability Field Strip Miner I Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Hammerhead II x5 The Skiff can already do L4s if you throw enough money at it. Tank is 561 DPS "omni" and it pushes out 220 DPS which is on par with drakes so in theory it ought to be able to do most L4s. Aggro will be a pain to get given that it has to run into stuff to get it, but at least the thing pushes 250m/s at top speed so rat-ramming won't take as long as in a dominix without guns, painters, or a speed booster. Presuming EFT's reporting the correct numbers. For some reason I thought the Skiff's top speed was only 90m/s, but EVE-Mon corroborates it so... Couldn't you throw a NOS or a TP on there to get aggro? Target painters use mid-slots and would weaken the tank. Fitting somewhat better hardeners and going for rat-specific hardeners would possibly free up a mid-slot for one or to use an afterburner to go faster (if it has the grid, not sure0, but in the current setup a painter wouldn't work. Speaking of the power grid it's too low to allow any but small vampires, and with their range being so short you've probably already aggro'd the NPCs by getting that close. A painter might be workable, but the high slot is most likely best left for a strip miner so you can get some ore while your drones nuke other stuff. You've got a 15km3 ore bay, you might as well use it, and fitting mining drones would lower your DPS while a strip miner wouldn't. Well, it wouldn't lower your DPS unless you want to fit a smartbomb in that high slot, but that's rather discommended.
Riot Girl State War Academy Caldari State 42	Posted - 2012.08.31 04:17:00 - [18] - Quote Shereza wrote: A painter might be workable, but the high slot is most likely best left for a strip miner so you can get some ore while your drones nuke other stuff. You've got a 15km3 ore bay, you might as well use it, and fitting mining drones would lower your DPS while a strip miner wouldn't. Well, it wouldn't lower your DPS unless you want to fit a smartbomb in that high slot, but that's rather discommended. Pfft. I'm putting a smart bomb on mine. Why do I need a mining laser when I can just steal other people's ore after I gank them in my uberskiff?
Moonlit Raid State War Academy Caldari State 37	Posted - 2012.08.31 09:14:00 - [19] - Quote Mutant Caldari wrote: Or you could simply be competent and watch your scanner as well as Local. Carebears always want things spoon fed to them, I swear. I don't remember local being all that useful in wh's.
Jack Miton Bite Me inc Elysian Empire 526	Posted - 2012.08.31 10:24:00 - [20] - Quote Moonlit Raid wrote: Mutant Caldari wrote: Or you could simply be competent and watch your scanner as well as Local. Carebears always want things spoon fed to them, I swear. I don't remember local being all that useful in wh's. if youre mining in a wh youre doing it wrong. if you cant use dscan to stay alive in whs then youre doing it VERY wrong.

Obsidiana White-Noise 157	Posted - 2012.08.31 18:58:00 - [21] - Quote The Skiff has many advantages. Good Ore Bay: It's almost the max size of the old Hulk's. It's good enough. Single Crystals: It uses one crystal, improving RoI and effectively giving it two or three times the cargo hold of other barges. Quick on Ice: It has the shortest cycle time of any barge, meaning interruptions are less disruptive. Preferred Drone Bay: It has room for a flight of light and mining drones or a flight of medium drones. Speed: The thing can get to ore faster than any other barge and get out faster. The idea is that this ship really can live long enough to call for help. You can sacrifice the DCU and MU to get the 2 pts with the penalty, yet rocks will still target pretty fast, range is sufficient, and EHP is still up there (esp. w/ gang bonuses). That said, the Skiff has a lot of going for it besides the EHP. My hope is that the T2 ORE frigate will be a ninja miner with the built in 2pt bonus. >:} T3 mining cruiser with 3pt bonus and drone damage bonus ftw. >:D
Katalci SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 128	Posted - 2012.08.31 19:37:00 - [22] - Quote why can't you just fit stabs yourself (then die when you get bubbled lmao)
Adeena Torcfist Dark Underground Forces 43	Posted - 2012.08.31 19:54:00 - [23] - Quote T3 barges with Cov ops. Proper Ninja Mining in 0.0 All that Ore i could get using B/Ops & Covert cynos...... .... If they ever got released, thats the first place i'd be heading. Someones space to mine their rocks :) ( I mean my rocks now )
Shereza Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 44	Posted - 2012.08.31 21:50:00 - [24] - Quote Obsidiana wrote: The Skiff has many advantages. ... Quick on Ice: It has the shortest cycle time of any barge, meaning interruptions are less disruptive. I tend to mine ice in systems without stations as they seem to generally be less prone to issues than systems with stations and ice belts. I also don't have enough miners to make it more profitable to have a ship standing by full time to haul ice as opposed to me just jumping to the next system, docking and dumping, and getting back. In my situation longer cycle times that yield more ore, as with the old mackinaw, were much less disruptive than the current situation. Pre-1.2 it wasn't uncommon for me to be able to warp or jump out almost immediately after my ships start a new cycle, unload my cargo, and get back into the system and be aligning for said alts in time to pulse my gang links to keep their harvesters going without disruption. With skiff cycle times going as low as a bit under 60 seconds I don't see that scenario happening all too often, even if I mine in systems with both ice belts and stations.
Fronkfurter McSheebleton Squirrel Horde Habitat Against Humanity 110	Posted - 2012.08.31 23:35:00 - [25] - Quote Katalci wrote: why can't you just fit stabs yourself (then die when you get bubbled lmao) In that case, why not just use a mack? Triple rep Myrms are like what you'd get if you strapped a beehive to Robocop.
Obsidiana White-Noise 158	Posted - 2012.09.01 04:02:00 - [26] - Quote Shereza wrote: I tend to mine ice in systems without stations as they seem to generally be less prone to issues than systems with stations and ice belts. I also don't have enough miners to make it more profitable to have a ship standing by full time to haul ice as opposed to me just jumping to the next system, docking and dumping, and getting back. In my situation longer cycle times that yield more ore, as with the old mackinaw, were much less disruptive than the current situation. Pre-1.2 it wasn't uncommon for me to be able to warp or jump out almost immediately after my ships start a new cycle, unload my cargo, and get back into the system and be aligning for said alts in time to pulse my gang links to keep their harvesters going without disruption. With skiff cycle times going as low as a bit under 60 seconds I don't see that scenario happening all too often, even if I mine in systems with both ice belts and stations. I've been in the one jump situation and I still like the Skiff better for it. I can see how the change causes problems with gang links, but it should just affect the one cycle. Hmm... ya, maybe two. The Hulk now takes the longest and is designed for fleet mining ops. It did get nerfed and really needed a buff. Btw, by disruptive I meant lowsec/nullsec hostile interruptions, be it during an alliance op or ninja mining. Heck, it works well with getting away from destroyers in highsec. If you have to cut a cycle short, you lose 1 unit rather than 3 or 4. It is handy for taking advantage of sudden opportunities too.
Captain Skarlet Elemental Exploration Quantum Decadence 5	Posted - 2012.09.05 09:18:00 - [27] - Quote Pinky Denmark wrote: If you want to run away you have plenty slots to fit Warp Core Stabilizers and ecm... Mmm good point you raised, now I'll raise another; Warp Core Stabilizers why is the T2 still only one point difference, where as the Warp Scrambler 1 has 2 points..? Where's the balance in this? Why does the aggressed have to use up more slots to counteract the aggressor, where is that fair? Back to the point in question; even if the skiff still kept it's +2 warp bonus a PvP pirate with a faction warp scrambler like the True Sansha or Khanid with 3 points would stop him...!
Riot Girl Riot Club 60	Posted - 2012.09.05 09:27:00 - [28] - Quote Dear CCP, people are always complaining that carebears won't leave high-sec and as a carebear, I feel I have a right to access more valuable minerals in lower security systems without losing ships. Please fix mining ships so I can mine solo and AFK in low-sec and not worry about being ganked by meanie PvPers and pirates.
Shereza Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 46	Posted - 2012.09.05 10:17:00 - [29] - Quote Sadly while the worst offenders might be that way I suspect that the majority of PvE-oriented miners would rather it was actually worth the hassle to mine in low-sec. Still, the fact remains that if you reach a point where you need warp core strength you've probably already screwed up in a place or three. [Mackinaw, Stealth Mack] Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II Medium Shield Booster II Domination Thermic Dissipation Amplifier Domination EM Ward Amplifier Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Improved 'Guise' Cloaking Device II Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I [Hulk, Stealth Hulk] Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II Medium Shield Booster II Domination EM Ward Amplifier Domination Kinetic Deflection Amplifier Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Improved 'Guise' Cloaking Device II Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Ginger Barbarella State War Academy Caldari State 97	Posted - 2012.09.05 16:56:00 - [30] - Quote Look, if someone wants to gank you in high, you have two options at the time of the attack: run, or laugh at them in local (whether they succeed or not). Period. Your options are wider after the fact. 1) Gank them, 2) wardec them and grief them, or 3) ignore it. Mining vessels are not combat vessels. If it was an someone in an NPC corp that ganked you, make it your mission in life to grief them. Gank them at every opportunity, anywhere in-game. Do it a thousand times. If they're in a player corp, wardec them, and make the corp members know in no uncertain terms that your fight is with that toon, and not them. Make it your mission in life to grief him/her as long as they're in that corp; when they leave, continue the fight. Whining on the Forums is the last refuge of a failure.



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