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fixing lowsec

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Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point	Posted - 2011.04.02 12:16:00 - [1] Edited by: Grimpak on 02/04/2011 12:25:18 it's my humble opinion that what breaks lowsec, besides FW, is not the lack of profitability but actual bad piracy. what do you mean by "bad piracy" you might ask? well many pirates simply want to blow up stuff and not actually offering ransoms. that in itself is bad piracy, since you're scaring prey away. you want the victims to become cash cows, not 1-time wallets that you take isk from and then run back to hisec never to be seen again. so how to fix this? well first thing to do is actually a customs change on simply not breaking ransoms. really, don't. you're the plague that actually breaks lowsec, not the no-risk, high profitability of hisec. Too much of a ransom and you will probably scare him away too, while too few simply makes it not worth it. second thing is an idea to implement with the contract system that Borgh Brainbasher and some other regulars of C&P came up with which is a ransom mini-contract. think of it as a temporary treaty that you can setup directly with the victim that has the option of giving automatically expirable standings so that you don't dry the victim too much nor you attack him several times. now you have a good way to streamline ransoms, that will make them easier and better useable, and while you might not have fixed losec, you probably have make it more useable and not too much inhospitable for the general populace. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Armoured C Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.04.02 12:24:00 - [2] id fix your lowsec anytime :P THE EVE REPORT
Michelle Vega	Posted - 2011.04.02 12:30:00 - [3] For a second there I thought I came to Features and Ideas forum.. To OP: Wrong forum.
Awesome Possum Original Sin. PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS	Posted - 2011.04.02 12:35:00 - [4] but i like blowing stuff up ♥
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point	Posted - 2011.04.02 12:41:00 - [5] Originally by: Michelle Vega For a second there I thought I came to Features and Ideas forum.. To OP: Wrong forum. it gets more visibility here, at least for the short period of time before it's moved to the Graveyard. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Tarrasco	Posted - 2011.04.02 12:49:00 - [6] i'm with you grimpak
Rouge Drone	Posted - 2011.04.02 13:01:00 - [7] I've rode through the decline of lowsec since it's start and feel that the problem is quite complex and multifaceted. Many game changes have had negative effects on low sec and small scale pvp over the years while virtually nothing has been done to aid it. It's been a slow death due to neglect over the course of 6 years. Ore redistribution, removal of complexes from low sec, added high sec content, sov mechanics forcing weekend pvpers into empire and the increased player population flooding the region with wannabe pirates have all removed any incentive for bears to leave high sec. Furthermore warp to 0 has made non-consensual engagement extremely difficult and the hp buffs and stacking nerf slowing combat to a crawl coupled with the aforementioned population boost has made blobbing go out of control. Very difficult to camp a half decent gate without some 2 bit chump corp or renter rejects trying to drop a carrier on you. Ransoming is all well and good but what is there to pirate? Back in 04/05 there was an osprey mining in every other system and a t2 fit ferox in every complex (back when t2 modules were 10-25m each). Now it's just a blobby ****hole with nothing but pvpers. When it boils down to it piracy is essentially pvping for profit, and there isn't much profit in risking your ship against those odds. You can still roam for indies on gates, maybe scan down the odd mission runner but that's about it. I mean, when was the last time anyone saw a mining op in the mara pipe? In closing low sec piracy is dead, ccp seemingly don't understand or don't care about it and if you aren't carebearing in high sec or fighting for space in 0.0 you don't exist. Sorry if that was too tl;dr.
Holy One	Posted - 2011.04.02 13:24:00 - [8] alts are what break low sec. no fix for that. main issue with low sec is that nobody can live and do business there due to the lack of consequences to aggression. until that is addressed low sec will remain an alt theme park. BBQ makes me hungry for more...
Burnharder	Posted - 2011.04.02 13:53:00 - [9] VICEROYS. (how many times do I need to say it?)
Cebit FLA5HY RED The Defenders of Pen Island	Posted - 2011.04.02 14:03:00 - [10] Part of the problem is that there has been so many warnings on forums about not paying ransoms couse you will just get blown up anyways that it's hardly worth of even trying one anymore. We do try and ransom every now and then, and it's only in 1 of maybe 20 times they do agree to pay so know many stopped even trying. And we usually don't ask for some rediciulous amounts, it's all based on age of player. We do tend to blow up their ships and ransom the pod's.. might have something to do with that i guess The Rustbucket Outlaw
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point	Posted - 2011.04.02 14:18:00 - [11] Edited by: Grimpak on 02/04/2011 14:17:57 Originally by: Cebit We do tend to blow up their ships and ransom the pod's.. might have something to do with that i guess well yeah sometimes it's that too. idea is to streamline ransoms somewhat so that, at the very least, you get to have a (optional) mechanic that makes things easier for the victim while it gives some "legitimacy" to the ransom. true that while it might not fix losec, it might contribute to decrease the "fear factor" it has. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Myra2007 Millstone Industries	Posted - 2011.04.02 15:41:00 - [12] Common (and very annoying) misconception. People who have a low sec status are not necessarily 'pirates'. I don't shoot people for profit but for fun and so do many other lowsec inhabitants. The low sec status is just a side effect I'm accepting. This is eve where you have the freedom to do what you want the way you want. Who are you to tell me I must be a pirate and even one that complies with your personal standards? But whats even more egregious: lowsec is not broken. This is mostly a perception from players who do not live there. Many things could be improved (like with all parts of new eden) but no it is not in any way broken. It's a different style of life which is not for everyone. -- Originally by: Professor Slocombe I will only buy tickets if the prize is your stuff and you leave Eve. Forever. You irritating self obsessed cretin.
IoWalker	Posted - 2011.04.02 15:45:00 - [13] Originally by: Holy One alts are what break low sec. no fix for that. main issue with low sec is that nobody can live and do business there due to the lack of consequences to aggression. until that is addressed low sec will remain an alt theme park. This. This psychological and economic effect = lo-sec. But that said, I would never support an alt fix to remedy all of that. Alts have many important functions, other than than being part of the lo-sec malaise.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.04.02 15:47:00 - [14] Originally by: Grimpak it's my humble opinion that what breaks lowsec, besides FW, is not the lack of profitability but actual bad piracy EVE history would tend to disagree with you. "Bad piracy" has always been around, yet once upon a time, back when mining didn't suck donkey balls and when lowsec mining was noticeably better than highsec mining, lowsec was (looking at percentages of player population) far more populated compared to these "modern times" we're living in now. _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts _
Myra2007 Millstone Industries	Posted - 2011.04.02 15:53:00 - [15] More misconceptions: population density. It's not that low. Seriously I live in Genesis which god knows is not a very strongly inhabited place but from what I can tell it' not bad in comparison to 0.0. No pvp zone will ever come close hisec numbers in average. What numbers are you using as a comparison when you claim lowsec is deserted? It speaks against my experience. -- Originally by: Professor Slocombe I will only buy tickets if the prize is your stuff and you leave Eve. Forever. You irritating self obsessed cretin.
Cebit FLA5HY RED The Defenders of Pen Island	Posted - 2011.04.02 16:36:00 - [16] Originally by: Myra2007 But whats even more egregious: lowsec is not broken. This is mostly a perception from players who do not live there. Many things could be improved (like with all parts of new eden) but no it is not in any way broken. It's a different style of life which is not for everyone. Really agree with this. The Rustbucket Outlaw
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point	Posted - 2011.04.02 17:57:00 - [17] ok, maybe I'm wrong. maybe losec isn't really that broken (xcept FW), and I'm basing myself in old info (last time I went thru placid it really seemed quite the wasteland, besides FW systems), but is it wrong to ask for a streamlined ransoming process? --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Myra2007 Millstone Industries	Posted - 2011.04.02 18:15:00 - [18] Originally by: Grimpak ok, maybe I'm wrong. maybe losec isn't really that broken (xcept FW), and I'm basing myself in old info (last time I went thru placid it really seemed quite the wasteland, besides FW systems), but is it wrong to ask for a streamlined ransoming process? No, no. Don't get me wrong and apologies if I seemed hostile. Threads about 'broken' lowsec are merely my pet peeve. Usually the next thing that happens is alot of people suggesting to 'fix' it by either making it hi-sec or hi-sec lite. I would support all kinds of mechanics that encourage more actual gameplay within lowsec. This could very much include ransom mechanics or vigilante/bounty hunting if it's done in a good way. As for your specific idea the immediate problem I see is that people in this game go to all lengths to bend the mechanics. The standings idea is fine as a way to help pirates organize their ransoms (like you give somebody a ransom and then your corpie logs in and kills him 5 minutes later because he didn't know about it yet). But the standings on their own don't actually keep you from shooting them so the problem of trust is still the same. And even if the game mechanic accounted for that in some way (which isn't really easy to do in the first place I guess) some people would get their alts/allies to shoot people after ransoming them etc. I think that it is similar to the treaties which were announced I believe at some point but never happened. These kinds of player contracts are I assume very hard to forge into game mechanics because the degree of freedom for what you can do in eve is very high. I'd love to say yes to any mechanic that a) isn't inconsequential and b) doesn't completely change the face of lowsec today. To date though any really concrete approach I've seen has really failed to address many of the key problems in implementation. -- Originally by: Professor Slocombe I will only buy tickets if the prize is your stuff and you leave Eve. Forever. You irritating self obsessed cretin.
Pharos Pharos	Posted - 2011.04.02 18:25:00 - [19] Ransom contracts, are, as mentioned, difficult to formulate. However, keeping with the principle of simplicity is best, how about this: Ransom is asked, the one being ransomed creates a contract for the specified amount with the name of the ransoming player (players). This ISK is held by the game until one of two things happen - the one being ransomed docks in any station, anywhere, in his current ship, in which case the ISK is distributed amongst all of the ransoming parties, or alternatively the ship being ransomed is destroyed, in which case the ISK is refunded to that player. Afterall, once the ship is in station, it's up to the target to not get it attacked again. Of course there's the problems with some systems not having stations, etc, but that could all lead to some interesting emergent gameplay - scouting the CNR you ransomed to the nearest lowsec station, etc.
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point	Posted - 2011.04.02 18:29:00 - [20] no problem at all, it's just that maybe I'm the one that is in the wrong in terms of how losec is really. doesn't stop it from adding a mechanic that removes a bit of the fear factor it has, and that's mostly what this sugestion is all about. sure there will be people that will try to come up with a way to abuse with it, or simply disregard it and not use it, but doesn't hurt to make losec less inhospitable now, does it? granted the technicality might be a bit of a problem yes, but who knows. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2011.04.02 18:34:00 - [21] Topic 27 again? Reply to topic 27: Low sec doesn't need "fixing"... - as it stands it is a distinct type of area with its own varied tweeks in game mechanics and a different "demographic" population... - smash the notion that every area of eve should have equal density of population...I like the Real world with Cities, suburbs, semi-populated rural areas, wastelands with little "oases" of populations and outposts. The eve world becomes less alive and varied with one space being like the rest, little populated areas rife with roving brigands is an interesting part of the game.. don't ruin that But, to give some credit, title of the thread asside, at least you are thinking creatively about ways to make the game that much more intersting... I don't know that I agree with your assumptions or how workable and fun the dynamics would be (and certainly they can be gamed by having third parties warp in and kill you instead while negotiating)... - there is always room to improve in anything done.. good things can get even better sometimes - the notion that "low-sec is broken" though shouldnt' be the tail that wags the do. hav interesting ways to increase competitive types of pew pew between smaller groups? Almost all of us would like that... let the ideas stand on their on merit and maybe they might have a place in low sec. parts of low-sec or elsewhere (o.o, wormholes, Deadspace? new types of deadspace that spawn in low sec?!)
Swynet	Posted - 2011.04.02 18:36:00 - [22] Maybe piracy would mean something if there weren't that much 3rd class "pirates" acting in high sec. What are you talking about when you name "pirates"? Those scum's ganking in high sec, war-decking in high sec just because they're -0 SS? Hell those were never and will never be pirates, they're just dealers robbers or what ever else but never pirates. You want to know what pirates are? -try to get in to low sec/null sec and discuss with some of them (known ones) and you'll get another vision of what Eve's all about. Those guys are really great players but you'll get hard time before they even answer you. ________________________________________________ Originally by: Goose99 In EVE, PVE can happen anywhere, anytime. Whenever you undock, you subject yourself to involuntary PVE.
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point	Posted - 2011.04.02 18:41:00 - [23] Edited by: Grimpak on 02/04/2011 18:41:58 Originally by: Diomedes Calypso stuff you know, you should read a bit before dissing out the entire post. Originally by: Swynet You want to know what pirates are? -try to get in to low sec/null sec and discuss with some of them (known ones) and you'll get another vision of what Eve's all about. Those guys are really great players but you'll get hard time before they even answer you. granted C&P channel ingame isn't really packed with those pirates, but I did ask around a bit. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
quigibow	Posted - 2011.04.02 18:45:00 - [24] why not just remove all roids but veld from high sec... that way peeps will have to go to low/null to get thier mins... might make drone regions a little less ghetto toboot...
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2011.04.02 18:48:00 - [25] Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 02/04/2011 18:41:58 Originally by: Diomedes Calypso stuff you know, you should read a bit before dissing out the entire post. Maybe you should read my entire post before you dis my post. I specifically gave the op props for suggesting his own idea of positive changes to the game in my last paragraph. In my first I specifically took issue with the title of the thread , not the ideas which I addressed subsequently... I want to stop this presumption people are trying to perpetuate that low-sec needs fixing due to lower population density.
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point	Posted - 2011.04.02 18:49:00 - [26] Originally by: Diomedes Calypso Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 02/04/2011 18:41:58 Originally by: Diomedes Calypso stuff you know, you should read a bit before dissing out the entire post. Maybe you should read my entire post before you dis my post. I specifically gave the op props for suggesting his own idea of positive changes to the game in my last paragraph. In my first I specifically took issue with the title of the thread , not the ideas which I addressed subsequently... I want to stop this presumption people are trying to perpetuate that low-sec needs fixing due to lower population density. sorry, seemed like some copypasta reply so I replied in kind --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Pharos Pharos	Posted - 2011.04.02 18:51:00 - [27] I'm kind of curious now though, can anyone think of a way to exploit my proposed ransom mechanic, assuming that when the contract is created it shows up in the journals of everyone involved so everyone knows the conditions?
Centri Sixx	Posted - 2011.04.02 19:20:00 - [28] Edited by: Centri Sixx on 02/04/2011 19:21:38 Some reasons why a formal ransom system wont work. Assuming that it's hardcoded so they can't ransom and break it. 1.They don't have to offer it. edited, wrong word choice. 2. There are multiple pirate corps and solo players operating in a single lowsec region. You'd constantly be paying to operate there, especially if you can ransom only pods. 3. Put an NPC corp alt in your pirate fleet. You collect the ransom, he pops the ship. Nothing the system can do about it. 4. Unless self-destruct is disabled during deliberations, time can be used to blow the ship up. You can't code systems to make players act in a certain way. Players always wll abuse them to their benefit. Problem is that people want EVE to be a large scale quasi-FPS in space, and that dominates play.
Pharos Pharos	Posted - 2011.04.02 19:37:00 - [29] Edited by: Pharos Pharos on 02/04/2011 19:47:43 Originally by: Pharos Pharos Ransom process - 1. Ransom is asked by attackers. 2. The one being ransomed creates a contract for the specified amount of ISK with the name of the ransoming player (players.) 3. This ISK is held by the game until one of two things happen: a.the one being ransomed docks in any station, anywhere, in his current ship, in which case the ISK is distributed equally amongst all of the ransoming parties. b. alternatively if the ship being ransomed is destroyed, anywhere, before it can dock, the ISK is refunded to the pilot. Afterall, once the ship is in station, it's up to the target to not get it attacked again. 4. Ejecting/changing ships voids the contract. Simple goal of ransom contract - get ship alive to station, nothing more complex, in exchange the parties who were attacking get ISK. Doesn't force any mechanics on players - they can still shoot the target, alts can still shoot the target, etc, but of course they won't get the payout. Provides a framework for the one being ransomed to save his ship for ISK and have confidence that he will get a return on his investment. Incentive for both parties to get ship safely to station after contract is made, at which point it is the target's job not to get caught again. Downsides, doesn't work in WH space or anyplace where a station is not in reasonable distance. Exploitable? Edited for clarity.
S'Way Bitter Vets	Posted - 2011.04.02 19:38:00 - [30] People won't change they way they pirate, for every honoured ransom there is there'll be another dishonoured by someone else. Also a lot of the problem is high sec people don't go to low sec because they can go anywhere in high sec and avoid it currently (well except solitude). Split up the main high sec empires with low sec in-between. Add a few more high sec and 0.0 entry points to reduce the gate camps a little and there'd be more traffic (with a lot of entry points gatecamped high sec people see that and think it's everywhere and never return). It might even give each empire a proper trade hub instead of one huge one (jita) if they became independant islands of high-sec.

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