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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.02 17:58:00 -
[1]
Originally by: Marcus Welbey
1. AFK cloakers do no harm if they are afk. Well how about I come to your house and stand in your living room with my .45. I wont point it at you, i wont even say anything, im just standing there, AM I a threat?
2. Your just mad because you cant make any Isk. OK your right I like to make isk, I like to enjoy the game I pay 15.00 a month to play, not sit in a station and spin my ship. So tell ya what ill stand outside your job with my .45 and see if you like not being able to make any money, but hey the argument is you can go somewhere else right.
I would use this on you because you were not cloaked.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.02 18:14:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Max Godsnottlingson The only issue that I have with afk cloakers is that, in my book, it is no different from somebody who macro-mines. Both are means in which a player can 'play' the game without actually being there.
Now macro-mining we all hate with a passion, but then argue for afk cloaking. Is this not a case of double standards?
AFK cloaking makes no isk, gets you no kills, provides no intel and poses a threat to nobody. The only thing you manage is to show up in local chat.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.02 18:22:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Max Godsnottlingson
That's not the point. The point is, you are not playing against another player, but an empty chair. Now you prove to me that an empty chair has the ability to pay it's subs and play Eve on it's own, then I will be more then happy for it to play the game, until then, it's on a par with macro-mining
I afk in my bomber and pay my subs. Im not sure what kind of argument you are trying to make here. AFK cloakers have never stopped me from ratting because they are AFK and thus not there to stop me.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.02 18:35:00 -
[4]
Originally by: mkmin Edited by: mkmin on 02/04/2011 18:31:11
Originally by: Max Godsnottlingson
Originally by: baltec1
AFK cloaking makes no isk, gets you no kills, provides no intel and poses a threat to nobody. The only thing you manage is to show up in local chat.
That's not the point. The point is, you are not playing against another player, but an empty chair. Now you prove to me that an empty chair has the ability to pay it's subs and play Eve on it's own, then I will be more then happy for it to play the game, until then, it's on a par with macro-mining
This really. AFK cloaking is PVP with no user input. Just because it's bad at it, doesn't mean it isn't PVP.
And yes, an AFK cloaker is a threat. It may not actually be dangerous, but it is a very potent and very real threat. People do AFK cloaking because it is a threat. It's a message to the people in the system saying "If you don't play the game the way I want you to play, I might drop a supercarrier fleet on you" which sounds like a threat to me.
If a counter to the threat in the form of "drop the fleet or get out" was added (i.e. cloaks use fuel) then it would be balanced.
Then people will afk in umprobable ships while bombers become near useless thanks to your nerfing of their range.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.03 07:20:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Swynet
Originally by: baltec1 Then people will afk in umprobable ships while bombers become near useless thanks to your nerfing of their range.
Or you can grow some balls and show everyone you are a hull tanker without 30man support behind you.
Forget it, I was just joking. You can dock again until you can outnumber.
Newsflash!
I fly a solo bomber deep in enemy space with no backup and have the balls to attack battleships in a system with 50+ people in it. I also have the cheek to blow up haulers sitting under the nose of multiple supercaps. Meanwhile bears such as yourself are flooding to the forums to complain about me being AFK while I read your whines.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.03 07:29:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Rhadia You guys ever wondered what happens when an entire corporation of cloaky ships moves into your system?
Try telling me how that one's balanced.
When it's just one, it's a minor nuisance depending on skill level. When it's 20+ with recon support and cloaked bubblers, they own your system.
When a gang of 20+ anything enter your system you stop making isk...
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.03 14:15:00 -
[7]
Originally by: cRazYf1St IMO if you are AFK for a set amount of time then there should be something so you can hunt them down with or some mechanic in place so they aren't invulnerable.
Set a trap and continue to rat?
If they are afk then nothing will happen,if they are active then you will kill them.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.03 14:58:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara I would welcome, with open arms, removal of cloaked ships from local, if CCP introduced some kind of counter to cloaks. Now if you cloak up you are 100% safe (unprobable ships are not 100% safe if they stay in one place directional will kill them), the only other place where you are 100% safe is a station, even that might change with incarna. It's irony that escapes most of you. You want everyone to be in risk, while the one causing that risk to be risk free.
You are also risk free in your ratting raven while the red in local is cloaked up because that little bomber can not do anything to hurt you.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.03 15:18:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
You are also risk free in your ratting raven while the red in local is cloaked up because that little bomber can not do anything to hurt you.
Hello! Covert cyno?!
This means two things. One, he was not AFK and two, he is not cloaked. This is when you spring the trap.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.03 15:25:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
You don't know when he's afk and when he's not. He can sit there whole day and just when you think its safe he can come back for 5 minutes light a cyno and unleash hell.
So keep your defences ready all day?
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.03 15:38:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
You don't know when he's afk and when he's not. He can sit there whole day and just when you think its safe he can come back for 5 minutes light a cyno and unleash hell.
So keep your defences ready all day?
Sure no problem, it's so easy to have fleet ready 24/7. Even then a fleet of black ops or sb's have a huge dps, you'll be dead before you can say "boy, i wish that afk cloaker were afk forever". Your fleet might warp to you and catch some straggler, but most likely they will warp out and cloak up before you can react.
Not to mention how is it reasonable for afk player to make friends at the keyboard necessary for survival.
If you cannot protect your space you do not deserver to keep it. I guess you find it impossible to get a thrasher or three together which can alpha a bomber each
A single cane can shut down a system just as effectivly as a bomber and take on many more targets.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.03 15:48:00 -
[12]
Edited by: baltec1 on 03/04/2011 15:51:19
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
A single cane can shut down a system just as effectivly as a bomber and take on many more targets.
Can it alpha all the cloaky ships? No. Plus your advice would require those thrashers to tag along wherever you go, doing nothing but dying of boredom.
And I could find a cane, therefore I could kill it.
I can hide a typhoon in a system with probing ships looking for me forever, its not that hard. Also yes, you should be ready to defend yourself at all times in 0.0.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.03 16:01:00 -
[13]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Originally by: baltec1 Also yes, you should be ready to defend yourself at all times in 0.0.
Unless you're an AFK cloaker. That shouldn't apply to them because well, when we say we want 0.0 to be scary and unforgiving to those not paying attention we really mean that for our enemies, not ourselves.
We bomber pilots have more risk when attacking in our paper thin ships so it evens out
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.03 16:09:00 -
[14]
Edited by: baltec1 on 03/04/2011 16:10:23
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
No if you choose your targets wisely. You know in advance how the pve ships are fitted, you know of any tank holes, your victim is already tanking the whole fleet of rats.
90% of the time I am attacking them on a gate and even with then attacking rats if they have light drones I am forced to run. Also how are you earning less isk? Do bombers in local nerf bounties?
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.03 16:16:00 -
[15]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 03/04/2011 16:11:30
Originally by: baltec1 We bomber pilots have more risk when attacking in our paper thin ships so it evens out
AFK cloakers have ZERO chances of engaging in an encounter they choose not to. If an AFK cloaker lost his ship is because he chose to engage and lost that engagement for whatever other reason. No one is unable to bring PVP to an AFK cloaker in 0.0 if he wishes not to engage in it.
You could have a gang of 100 pilots waiting 24/7 for a gang of AFK cloakers to CHOOSE to PVP and the engagement will only happen when the AFK cloakers CHOOSE to engage. You could set traps, you could do whatever you want. But the engagement is happening on the time and day the AFK cloaker chooses to.
There should be a way to bring unconsensual PVP to AFK cloakers in the same way a gang of AFK cloakers are able to bring unconsensual PVP to others.
Mind you, I'm not saying remove risk. I'm saying ADD risk to EVERYONE in space and in 0.0, not just your enemies, but EVERYONE, indluding AFK cloakers, since they ARE NOT paying attention the majority of the time.
There are so many ways to kill my bomber that in a system with a good corp the chances of getting a kill is slim. I might be able to warp around cloaked but I do pay a price in my very limited target list.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.03 16:18:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
T3 pve ships have no light drones. And tengu is one of the best ships for killing rats. Bombers increase risk, so I lose my ship more often, so even though I earn the same, my costs are higher.
It also has heavy missiles which will rip a bomber apart. If you get killed in a tengu by a bomber then you are doing something very very wrong.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.03 16:28:00 -
[17]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 I don't even have a problem with a docked player being 100% safe in station as long as he is at the keyboard docked and stalking prey.
But being able to spend days in 0.0 system without having to pay attention, go to the movies, to school, work, pizza parlor, whatever, and not be even in 1 ounce of risk is unacceptable in my books. All those while forcing everyone else to remain on their toes. EVERYONE in 0.0 space should have to be on their toes, including AFK docked players. With the current mechanics they don't have to be. And that's just wrong.
Fixed.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.03 16:38:00 -
[18]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 03/04/2011 16:34:44
Originally by: baltec1 Fixed.
No. You didn't fix anything. What you did do, however, is set up what is known as a red herring.
Whats the difference between the two? Both show up in local, both are AFK, both can pop up at any time and attack something. The only difference is that the docked ship could be mach which is far more deadly than anything with a cov ops cloak.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.03 17:00:00 -
[19]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Originally by: baltec1 Whats the difference between the two? Both show up in local
Yes.
Originally by: baltec1 both are AFK
Could be, yes.
Originally by: baltec1 both can pop up at any time and attack something.
No. Someone in station cannot just pop up next to a target and attack it almost instananeuously. He would need to undock and LOCATE the target while also it being able to be located. That makes a huge difference.
Originally by: baltec1 The only difference is that the docked ship could be mach which is far more deadly than anything with a cov ops cloak.
You cannot project a threat to a docked Machariel and the Machariel cannot project a threat on to you either. When it undocks it would need to spend time looking for you and you have that same opportunity to scan the Mach down.
A cloaked ship CAN project a threat but no one can project a threat onto it. In other words a claoked ship in space can bring instant unconsensual PVP to any ship in space the pilot chooses, but the same cannot be done to it.
But you know this already .
In order to know the mach is docked you have to keep an eye on it and seeing as you people are not wanting to keep fleet togeter its is highly likely the mach can undock, scan out a target and be melting its face before anyone knows its out. I know because I have done it many times before.
Then we have the unprobeable nightmares and tengu or something at a POS both of which are far more deadly than anything with a cov ops cloak. There are far more ways to keep a system locked down than just AFK cloaking
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.03 17:27:00 -
[20]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 03/04/2011 17:23:01
Originally by: baltec1 In order to know the mach is docked you have to keep an eye on it and seeing as you people are not wanting to keep fleet togeter its is highly likely the mach can undock, scan out a target and be melting its face before anyone knows its out. I know because I have done it many times before.
Then we have the unprobeable nightmares and tengu or something at a POS both of which are far more deadly than anything with a cov ops cloak. There are far more ways to keep a system locked down than just AFK cloaking
The same way you expect the system to have a fleet ready at a moments notice 24/7 YOU should also be required to have a fleet at any moment's notice ready. Because risk should be for everyone, not just your enemies.
You see, you keep mentioning 0.0 is supposed to be dangerous and that I'm supposed to be ready at all times, and I should have to buddy up with a gang if I'm going to mine or PVE, and I should have to pay attention for as long as I'm out in space. And I should be ready for unconsensual PVP. And that there should be a chance for me to unexpectedly lose my mining ship. But notice how these things you insist should apply to me don't apply to you :P.
You can go AFK for DAYS, FFS, without having to worry about ANY of those things . And yet you expect me to remain vigiliant and have that fleet on standby, all while you're at the parlor having some pizza.
I face risk every time I engage someone in pvp. Its not my falt you make life easy for me. There are several ways to AFK camp a system and yet more for people who are not AFK. The only way you stop being scared of an AFK player is if local is removed, then you cant see the harmless AFK players.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.03 17:30:00 -
[21]
Edited by: baltec1 on 03/04/2011 17:31:59
Originally by: Grog Barrel
Originally by: baltec1
Then we have the unprobeable nightmares and tengu or something at a POS both of which are far more deadly than anything with a cov ops cloak. There are far more ways to keep a system locked down than just AFK cloaking
All the alternative ways require manpower. AFK cloaking not. I won't even be doing metion about the risk/reward part.
A pos needs to be refueled every month or so while the tengu is even easyer than a bomber to use because you do not even have to push a button to be immune to probes.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.03 17:44:00 -
[22]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Like I said, if you want to camp a system 24/7 365 days/year to curb mining and ratting by all means do it. But you should be required to be at the keyboard to do it.
God forbid CCP added a chance to find and kill AFK cloakers (inattentive players in space, you know, the one you don't want me to be?).
When in my bomber I spend most of my time sittig still within jump range of a gate waiting. How would you nerf AFK cloakers (who pose no threat because they are not there) without nerfing me?
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