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numbfromtheneckup
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Posted - 2011.04.04 12:39:00 -
[31]
Edited by: numbfromtheneckup on 04/04/2011 12:39:52
A ship like this is not the way to fix the problem with hotdropping.
CCP themselves alluded to an idea they have in the last CSM meeting and it is by far the most elegant solution anyone has yet put forth.
In combination with potential jump range changes the idea that got hinted at was that of putting a "Spool up" time on jump drives, presumably one that increases the larger the ship doing the jumping (or portalling). Presumably it would be very short on a Black Ops but much longer on a Titan/Scar. Losing the high speed deployment currently associated with Hot Drops of all types at a stroke deals with this problem.
It was also suggested that different "Sizes" of cyno could also/instead be used as a fix. For example the only thing capable of opening a cyno for a Super Carrier is a regular Carrier.
There are plenty of ways of solving this issue that don't require a half thought out potentially game breaking "anti-cyno" ship and CCP are adamant they want to make the changes.
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Pod Amarr
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Posted - 2011.04.04 14:20:00 -
[32]
Whatever Did not read the whole thread.
Easy fix would be Have the Cyno module have spin up time of 20 seconds.
If the cyno ship lights the cyno and within the 20 seconds a anti cyno module is fired it will destabilize the beacon [percentage chance]
So the incoming ships will land in random positions as if the cyno ship was destroyed.
Pod |
DHB WildCat
Flash Over.
WE FORM VOLTRON
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Posted - 2011.04.04 14:52:00 -
[33]
Edited by: DHB WildCat on 04/04/2011 14:54:16
I agree that a "spool up" time would help tremendously. It just doesnt add any strategy to the situation. Yes it would help small gangs more so than a "anti cyno" ship would, that is until a super tanked Hic has you tackled and now you have to wait 20 more seconds to die rather than instantly.
Time is an issue and would fix Black Ops hot drops absolutely! However the real issue wouldnt even be touched with capitals. Even recons have tanks that would last beyond the 20 second spool up time, and the capitals would come on grid, on top of a gang and still pwn everything.
Its not a good solution. You need to be able to defend yourself against capitals in sub caps... and right now you can't period.
*IDEA - Cyno has such a disruptive effect on the grid that everyone electronics go down for a 20 second timer, including warp disrupt probes. This way you can still cyno your caps on the enemy but they can run if they want to.
WildCat
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Tigris Pantherinae
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Posted - 2011.04.04 15:36:00 -
[34]
 Originally by: DHB WildCat
...
Sorry no new ships or anything space related untill 2014 since they are making closets for captains and gaybars are next big 'incarna' hit.
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2011.04.04 16:07:00 -
[35]
this ship and module would make single siege cycle dread bombs alot more viable instead of the "just use moms" mentality.
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DHB WildCat
Flash Over.
WE FORM VOLTRON
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Posted - 2011.04.04 17:00:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Dr Fighter
this ship and module would make single siege cycle dread bombs alot more viable instead of the "just use moms" mentality.
I never thought of that, you are correct sir, it would bring a niche back for the dreads.
Good point sir
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fkingfurious
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Posted - 2011.04.04 17:27:00 -
[37]
The cyno based changers are a far better solution and DO in fact add a good deal of strategy, far more so than a ship that sits inert in space and simply makes cynoing impossible.
I don't know where this 20 second crap came from, thats a number that just got made up in this thread. The point of the changes CCP themselves hinted at are to alleviate this kind of problem and as such you should work on the theory that the timings are going to be sufficient to make the difference.
Plus DHB you do keep side stepping the problem of just how much this ship of yours would break things.
Two scenarios have already been suggested where the existence of these ships would make life next to impossible for a fleet to respond effectively to Capital level aggression. You saying theyd have to come in off-grid and then warp in is either a) stupid because warp bubbles will make getting the warping capitals into a useful position on the battle field basically impossible or b) is stupid because if thats all it takes to get round the anti-cyno ship it doesn't really solve a whole lot of anything. Cynoing in to the closest off grid position possible and having a few webbing ships nearby to facilitate rapid warping makes a mockery of the whole idea.
Altering the mechanics that make this kind of stupid long range instantaneous travel massive scale force projection so trivially easy is the way to fix the problem, not some silly floating brick that actually wouldn't really solve anything anyway.
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DHB WildCat
Flash Over.
WE FORM VOLTRON
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Posted - 2011.04.04 18:03:00 -
[38]
Edited by: DHB WildCat on 04/04/2011 18:06:53
Originally by: fkingfurious
The cyno based changers are a far better solution and DO in fact add a good deal of strategy, far more so than a ship that sits inert in space and simply makes cynoing impossible.
I don't know where this 20 second crap came from, thats a number that just got made up in this thread. The point of the changes CCP themselves hinted at are to alleviate this kind of problem and as such you should work on the theory that the timings are going to be sufficient to make the difference.
Plus DHB you do keep side stepping the problem of just how much this ship of yours would break things.
Two scenarios have already been suggested where the existence of these ships would make life next to impossible for a fleet to respond effectively to Capital level aggression. You saying theyd have to come in off-grid and then warp in is either a) stupid because warp bubbles will make getting the warping capitals into a useful position on the battle field basically impossible or b) is stupid because if thats all it takes to get round the anti-cyno ship it doesn't really solve a whole lot of anything. Cynoing in to the closest off grid position possible and having a few webbing ships nearby to facilitate rapid warping makes a mockery of the whole idea.
Altering the mechanics that make this kind of stupid long range instantaneous travel massive scale force projection so trivially easy is the way to fix the problem, not some silly floating brick that actually wouldn't really solve anything anyway.
Im honestly confused about what exactly you are upset about? Everything about this ship is designed to help smaller gangs / fleets have a fighting chance of escaping a superior force hotdropping them.
Now for capital fleet fights... Whoever gets in system first and has the field will have an advantage.. however isnt that supposed to be the case? Are you not supposed to have "homefield" advantage?
Even then all it takes as you stated is a close off grid cyno area.... some frigs for fast webbing, and a good cloaker to get you a spot in. In the grand scheme of things on large capital fights that..... 20-30 ish seconds is meaining less. I agree. However the 20-30 seconds for a smaller force to escape is literally the difference between living and dieing to ships they cannot possibly kill due to the tremedous gap between capitals and sub caps.
Im not sure again, of what exactly you are upset about here... please try to explain it to me so I can try to understand your perspective better. thank you, and sorry for misunderstanding you i mean no disrespect, just on another page.
Wild
Also for capital engagements.... this would mean that pure numbers wont automatically win the fight. You may have a smaller force but with these ships, you can then strategically place HIC's, bubbles to mess with the larger force making positioning difficult. So the better tacticians will have a chance to win the fight.... not just zomg we have more ships we win!
Also no these mods cannot be activated in pos shields!
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fkingfurious
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Posted - 2011.04.04 18:49:00 -
[39]
My problem is that I think this is a band aid where what we really need is an amputation.
The problem with cynos and stuff goes so much further than screwing up small gang warfare with silly hotdrops.
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Sigras
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Posted - 2011.04.04 19:00:00 -
[40]
I have an alternate proposal,
What if instead of stopping cynos on grid, it was a targeted module that prevented ships from coming through the cyno of the ship its activated on.
That way, it could be a normal module, usable on every ship (though with high CPU requirements) but it would take a fast-locking frigate to do so before any ships came through, but it would add a bit of strategy to large gang engagements as you could try to trap half their cap fleet on the wrong side of the cyno with a few of these ships.
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DHB WildCat
Flash Over.
WE FORM VOLTRON
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Posted - 2011.04.04 22:39:00 -
[41]
Originally by: fkingfurious
My problem is that I think this is a band aid where what we really need is an amputation.
The problem with cynos and stuff goes so much further than screwing up small gang warfare with silly hotdrops.
Okay, I understand now, and I agree. There are many things wrong with cyno's and capitals ect. This is one solution for a small part of that.
Feel free to toss ideas around about others aspects, people may like them, and all ideas are progress in the moving foward of fixing capitals online.
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Noisrevbus
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Posted - 2011.04.05 03:00:00 -
[42]
Personally, i find the idea very appealing. I don't do much capital warfare and i don't do much stealth tactics, which means i generally don't do hotdrops but face them on a daily basis.
However, i'd like to remind everyone here about the same things i've mentioned in several threads regarding supercapitals: it's a double-edged issue. As much as Hotdrops is there to ambush and quickly blitz an opposing force, it's also CCP's encouraged way to deal with the blob. There's been a heavy profileration the past year or two towards quick drops and covert gangs to bypass chokes, reaction times and gate, pos or station games. I'm much of the old breed myself, me and my friends have not embraced much of this new deal - but that doesn't mean we don't have to be cautious not to futher encourage blobs and blob mentality.
Somehow, trying to reminisce, i think that people trying to trap you geographically with numbers or hiding in structures you can't touch with a small gang (until they are capable of blanket lockdown) have annoyed me far more than the times i've been hotdropped either by coverts or capitals.
I'm not trying to shut the idea down, i'd even go as far as to say that i like it. I'm just offering a word of caution that there's two sides of the coin.
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Silver Hair Carson
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Posted - 2011.04.05 14:15:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Patient 2428190
Right, because we need more alts to do PvP in this game.
Got the covert ops alt, the falcon alt, the ganglink alt, the logistics alt, the dictor alts and now the no cyno alt.
every decent player has enough alts to sacrifice one for the purpose. if someone can't multitask, it doesn't mean multitasking needs to be nerfed.
amount of clients is the skillcap in eve
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CCP Zymurgist
Gallente
C C P
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Posted - 2011.04.05 18:32:00 -
[44]
Moved from Ships and Modules.
Zymurgist
Community Representative
CCP NA, EVE Online
Contact Us |
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DHB WildCat
Flash Over.
WE FORM VOLTRON
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Posted - 2011.04.06 02:55:00 -
[45]
Interesting they moved the thread into a dead area of the forums.
lol, how dare I say capitals are running rampid and ruining eve! How dare I!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Voltron
Caldari
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2011.04.06 04:18:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Voltron on 06/04/2011 04:20:57
Edited by: Voltron on 06/04/2011 04:19:41
Originally by: Crellion
Not taking sides on the particular suggestion but 2007 EvE was a vastly superior game to EvE as it is now... so getting it back should be high on everyone's list of priorities (gameplay wise)...
2007 EvE was a vastly superior game to EvE as it is now
This.
Also - it is a bit of an alt ship - I get the intended role and what not, but I don't think you'll find a whole lot of people willing to fly around in a ship with 1 high slot that can't fit any weapons nor rep the rest of the fleet.
I may be wrong, you may consider this response lazy but it's my opinion and you're asking for it.
I wouldn't even train an alt for it - flying a guardian would be much more engaging as far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't even entertain the idea of plugging the skill into my main.
Also - anti-cloak ships or mods would be great but that's for another thread another time.
Furthermore - your alliance owes me royalties for the use of my name.
Last edit - what if it could also fit one or possibly two gang links? Might entice a few more people to use/purchase/train for them......I dunno, blue sky thinking.
It's great touching your own dink isn't it?
Volt |
Shingorash
Caldari
Silentium Mortalitas
Mortal Destruction
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Posted - 2011.04.06 09:41:00 -
[47]
Originally by: dreamingtoday
I have an alternative idea how about a dedicated cyno ship, this way at least not every ship on grid has the potential to field a cyno.
You could give it some silly bonus to ehp or resis once the cyno is lit
That is what Recon ships are for. A better idea would be to make it so frigates etc cannot Cyno.
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I'm in your space, eating your ships! |
SiIver Twin
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Posted - 2011.04.06 10:29:00 -
[48]
Originally by: dreamingtoday
I have an alternative idea how about a dedicated cyno ship, this way at least not every ship on grid has the potential to field a cyno.
You could give it some silly bonus to ehp or resis once the cyno is lit
The whole idea of cyno's are that they can be used on the field to bring in reinforcements. Either in the form of capital ships or a jump bridge with a titan to send a secondary fleet to assist.
Having dedicated ships for cyno, or anti-cyno breaks the flow of the game. Why not simply offer HIC's the option of blocking cyno's instead of their warp field generator? It would just be an extension of their current role, which is negating enemy movements.
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