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CommmanderInChief
Comply Or Die
Shit.Happens
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Posted - 2011.04.06 10:57:00 -
[1]
So there is a big uproar about the anom changes for upgrades, and how much its going to effect people.
I am a little confused then..
Did we not ONLY A FEW MONTHS ago NOT have these in the first place? Before Dominion we did not have upgrades, and sanctums and havens at all! We had to just probe for some crappy anoms thats it!!
Eve community coped very well for the past 7 years without these upgrades so why the big whine about it now?
They havent god rid of them completely so your still better off than pre dominion.
You whining because you may not be able to fleece your renters at 2 billion a month for a -0.01 system! thats the issue.
OFF TOPIC : REMOVE MOON GOLD AND CONSTANT STREAM OF EASY TRILLIONS - THATS THE ISSUE! NOT SANCUMS AND HAVENS
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Galadriel Vasquez
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Posted - 2011.04.06 11:04:00 -
[2]
These anomalies - the Sanctums and Havens are they found my probing? What is the major issue that everyone is having about the change? Can some kind Pilot explain to me exactly whats happening? I have read alot over the last hour but cannot get a handle on this topic. Many Thanks.
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CommmanderInChief
Comply Or Die
Shit.Happens
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Posted - 2011.04.06 11:10:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Galadriel Vasquez
These anomalies - the Sanctums and Havens are they found my probing? What is the major issue that everyone is having about the change? Can some kind Pilot explain to me exactly whats happening? I have read alot over the last hour but cannot get a handle on this topic. Many Thanks.
Sanctums and havens are created by UPGRADING your 0.0 sov system with Pirate Detection Arrays. Level 5 gives sanctums and havens like forever. Its a isk ATM machine.
You also need terriotial claim units and Infrastructure hub (iHub)
They can be scanned using standard ingame scanner.
Large alliances have profited massively from this by renting out systems at least 2 billion ISK a month per system. Yet another constant easy money machine. Which they of course wont be able to quite demand that amount anymore. Hence the massive whine.
So they want to get billions from rent, billons from moons, do nothing for it yet produce crap loads of supercaps have no consequence losing them because they can make hundreds more. Great eh? Just how eve should be 
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Montgomery Crabapple
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Posted - 2011.04.06 11:11:00 -
[4]
Originally by: CommmanderInChief
You whining because you may not be able to fleece your renters at 2 billion a month for a -0.01 system! thats the issue.
That's just half of the complaint. The other half are corps who've paid these rip-off rents and then gone and invested in their -0.01 system, with outposts and things like that. It's a kind-of pincer movement of whineage.
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Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
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Posted - 2011.04.06 11:16:00 -
[5]
If CCP wanted people to go raging about the map for conflict, they would make moon goo like wormhole entrance/exits.
Only allowed to mine so many trillions before it collapses and respawns somewhere 'randomly' in 0.0 or low sec.
Now alliances needing to pay huge sov bills fail if they don't go to the new location.
CCP isn't daft, it completely knows this, so the real question is, Who are they pandering to? Its not the masses. Its just the vocal minority as usual breaking the fun for the majority.
Hoppit!
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Brooks Puuntai
Minmatar
Solar Nexus.
-Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2011.04.06 11:19:00 -
[6]
Was longer then a few months ago. Try almost a year.
Even so the old system was flawed to hell. Nullsec in comparison to now was empty and a lot of space was unused. The changes they made with upgrades allowed for the opportunity for what was previously wasted space usuable. It allowed for smaller groups whether renters or not to actually have the ability to move out to null and actually have a chance at succeeding. It also allowed larger alliances to allow more pilots into their ranks since there was more systems that where usuable ans they could sustain more at once.
However Dominion did add some changes which made living 0.0 harder for smaller alliances to get a foothold and this is due to sov costs and changes in moon minerals value. Without a sustainable way to support Sov costs theres no way for upstarting alliances to be able to afford to own space. Since prior it cost as little as a couple towers in order to achieve SOV, add to the fact that things like IHUBs and L5 upgrades require a Freighter in order to move caused issues with people who dont have JBs/Titan Bridges or the ability to build the upgrades they need.
So what CCP did was reverted the positive aspects of Dominion to Pre-Dominion yet left the ****ty aspect of Dominion intact.
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CommmanderInChief
Comply Or Die
Shit.Happens
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Posted - 2011.04.06 11:25:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Brooks Puuntai
Was longer then a few months ago. Try almost a year.
Fair enough a year - still not long ago tho was it m8? There was nothing at all before this.
This idea of 0.0 space not occupied is not correct, renters still existed ALOT. Atlas, PL, Bob had masses of renters, to name a few.
But now renters have to pay billions, and your right logi and everything else, and support was just not going to help anyone.
Small alliances/corps where never ever going to be able to move into 0.0 space without being a renter - ever. Because 0.0 regions are controlled mainly by stations, you dont have access to anything your stuck. Thats why no one moved their before. You cant live in these regions when you got a 2000+ man alliance removing your ihub and tcu in a matter of seconds, and there is nothing you can do about it. All that hard work and isk gone in an instant. Thats the issue.
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Galadriel Vasquez
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Posted - 2011.04.06 11:41:00 -
[8]
So a corp upgrades the PDA - whats to stop a guy flying in and soloing the complex himself? Apart from the obvious of course.
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CommmanderInChief
Comply Or Die
Shit.Happens
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Posted - 2011.04.06 11:44:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Galadriel Vasquez
So a corp upgrades the PDA - whats to stop a guy flying in and soloing the complex himself? Apart from the obvious of course.
Nothing... That's why you have to defend your space :)
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Montgomery Crabapple
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Posted - 2011.04.06 11:51:00 -
[10]
Limit fleet sizes, limit alliance sizes, make moon goo dynamic, make all asteroid belts anoms. There's a misconception here that 0.0 is "pure" or "end-game". It isn't. It's just a different environment to play in. I don't see why everything has to be "better" in 0.0, in pure ISK terms. Some things should be (and are), but not everything.
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Gillaboo
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Posted - 2011.04.06 11:53:00 -
[11]
Apples and oranges.
The flow of ISK (bounties) from anomalies and ratting, is fixed by game mechanics.
The flow of ISK from Moon poo is fixed by player supply and demand.
No need to "nerf" Sanctums and Havens relative to True Sec.
Instead, cut all bounties, everywhere, (0.0 space, Hi sec missions, every single Bounty anywhere in the game) by 10-15% and see what the next QEN says about ISK flow.
Still too much ISK? Cut by another 10-15%...because any adjustment will take months and months to be effective.
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This space For Rent. |
anniecannon
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Posted - 2011.04.06 11:54:00 -
[12]
It really depends on your corp numbers. example below
1-5 member corps wanting 0.0 well find a system with lots of belts and rat your ass off, thats how we used to do it in the past and just pop a small tower up for cover, hold low isk value there just incase.
large groups look for groups of systems and do the same but look for systems off the front lines of these larger allainces. I look at it this way, Would you as an alliance leader move your forces to kill pos's taking sov in a system you dont use anway? they can see your a small corp from the sov holding so you have some time. however you may get the visitors so this could lead to some fun pvp on a small scale.
This all depends on the systems you take and how much the current holding alliance wants to hold it really.
I would however be intersted on alliances thoughts on this though.
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Azhpol
Gallente
Casa Del Wombat
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Posted - 2011.04.06 11:57:00 -
[13]
Originally by: CommmanderInChief
Originally by: Galadriel Vasquez
So a corp upgrades the PDA - whats to stop a guy flying in and soloing the complex himself? Apart from the obvious of course.
Nothing... That's why you have to defend your space :)
Before we actually moved out to 0.0, my corp used to sneak out and run sanctums in upgraded but unused space(RAZOR has alot of it) when we needed to make a ton of isk quick. The upgrades pretty much ALWAYS get used, even if they people doing the upgraded didn't know ;)
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Why buffs never fix markets! |
Arnakoz
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Posted - 2011.04.06 12:10:00 -
[14]
Originally by: CommmanderInChief
Originally by: Brooks Puuntai
Was longer then a few months ago. Try almost a year.
Fair enough a year - still not long ago tho was it m8? There was nothing at all before this.
This idea of 0.0 space not occupied is not correct, renters still existed ALOT. Atlas, PL, Bob had masses of renters, to name a few.
But now renters have to pay billions, and your right logi and everything else, and support was just not going to help anyone.
Small alliances/corps where never ever going to be able to move into 0.0 space without being a renter - ever. Because 0.0 regions are controlled mainly by stations, you dont have access to anything your stuck. Thats why no one moved their before. You cant live in these regions when you got a 2000+ man alliance removing your ihub and tcu in a matter of seconds, and there is nothing you can do about it. All that hard work and isk gone in an instant. Thats the issue.
i only started playing this game about when they made this change. so i dont all of the changes that effect this.
but one of the big differences that i know of is the insurance.
before people could live in null and not need decent individual incomes because their losses were almost entirely covered by insurance. now ratting is the main stay for covering PvP. the way it should be IMO - since people have to work at least a little for their losses, instead of having them instantly replaced - or even having earned a profit.
but what option will there be for individuals? unless you;re allowed access to anything better than -0.4 you'll be better off running level 4 missions. or becoming an industrialist.
there will still be alliances that use these systems for the moon goo ... but all in all they will end up much like low sec is currently - mostly empty; since the rewards aren't worth the risks. like low sec.
i think most people are up in arms because most systems are <-0.4 and all of those people (including myself) will no longer have ready access to a decent income after this change. i'll likely either start doing more indy stuff, or spending most of my time running missions for income.
considering all of that, this all equals less pew since people wont be able to replace their stuff so readily. less pew means less market demand. less pew also goes in the face of what CCP is after.
but people not having rats to shoot will likely mean more people producing for income... so less demand AND more supply in an already saturated due to the my-ore-is-free crowd can't be good. i imagine that with time the market will balance itself out - but this balance will occur at a lower "level of energy," if you will.
so in that regard this change is plausibly bad for nearly everyone in the game.
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Hermosa Diosas
Eve Charity
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Posted - 2011.04.06 12:15:00 -
[15]
- Make moon gold dynamic, make it change monthly and some have a percent chance of not moving, thus allowing everyone a chance to make some isk, yes even small corps or alliances as they may stumble on a lucky unfound moon for a month and make it much more fairer for everyone.
- Remove insurance from titans and supercaps
- Make fleet battle losses a consequence rather than lets just go get in a billion more ships we have in stock cos we make so much isk.
- Stop allowing whole alliances to hold an entire region or more. Lets say alliances can hold no more than 50% of the stations in one region, and ONLY that region.
- Limit the number of blues alliances can have. The napfest is a joke. This stops alliances trying to control bits of everything everywhere.
- The above will allow for more skirmishes and fighting, because you have to search for your moons, or attack someones moon etc.
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Merouk Baas
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.06 12:33:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Merouk Baas on 06/04/2011 12:34:41
Well, CCP have tried luring everyone to 0.0 with the promise of "reward" and that has apparently made the already-residents also rich, so now the're nerfing it back and rethinking. But if you don't pay people to go to 0.0, you have to make it "fun", otherwise it'll be empty.
And I think the current (or the old, for that matter) sov mechanics don't really have any "fun" in them.
There's also the fact that empire dwellers (and everyone, actually) will look for security and safety before they start making a home there, and CCP wants warfare and strife, not safety and security. So they better make it hella fun, heh.
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Arnakoz
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Posted - 2011.04.06 12:57:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Brooks Puuntai
So what CCP did was reverted the positive aspects of Dominion to Pre-Dominion yet left the ****ty aspect of Dominion intact.
^^ this
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2011.04.06 13:02:00 -
[18]
There are simply no easy answers.
CCP wants the player base to keep growing, but as the player base grows, the size of fleets grows, and the servers can't handle that.
There are super alliances that can drop 100+ super caps. There is no way to stop them from crushing anyone they want. There is no way to force them to break up into smaller allainces.
Limit fleet size. Okay, we put our 2000 ships into 10 fleets and talk on TS or vent. Limit the number of blues an allaince can have. Okay, but then we just start using red as the new blue. Limit the number of systems an allaince can hold, and coalitions just set up puppet holding corps.
How does CCP keep growing the player base while shrinking the size of fights? I have no clue, and I'm pretty sure CCP doesn't either.
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Zey Nadar
Gallente
Unknown Soldiers
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2011.04.06 13:06:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Hermosa Diosas
- Limit the number of blues alliances can have. The napfest is a joke. This stops alliances trying to control bits of everything everywhere.
Isnt controlling everything everywhere the ultimate goal in Eve? 
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Arnakoz
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Posted - 2011.04.06 13:18:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Zey Nadar
Originally by: Hermosa Diosas
- Limit the number of blues alliances can have. The napfest is a joke. This stops alliances trying to control bits of everything everywhere.
Isnt controlling everything everywhere the ultimate goal in Eve?
yes. if you;re the type to have goals. but soon you have people in here telling you NO, that enjoying the game is the goal. i don;t suppose those types figure having a goal is enjoyable then :P
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2011.04.06 13:23:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Zey Nadar
Originally by: Hermosa Diosas
- Limit the number of blues alliances can have. The napfest is a joke. This stops alliances trying to control bits of everything everywhere.
Isnt controlling everything everywhere the ultimate goal in Eve?
For some, the goal is to control everything everywhere. Others just want to log on, jump in a little fleet with 5 friends and go on a roam looking for industrialists to pop. Others enjoy dropping a massive fleet of super caps on tiny corps that are trying to get established, just for the luls. Others are just looking to maximize their kb win/loss stats, not realizing that any monkey can have perfect stats by just making a bunch of trial accounts, then killing their own alts.
Some want to build, and others want to tear down, while others just want to avoid all this and just gank.
CCP just wants the player base to keep growing, but has no clue how to keep this growing player base from causing battles too large for thier servers to handle or how to keep a few ubber powerful coalitions from crushing all.
It ultimately has to be impossible to "win" EVE or the game ends, yet you have to have mechanics by which people think they may be able to "win" or there is no reason to play.
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BIZZAROSTORMY
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Posted - 2011.04.06 13:37:00 -
[22]
I was granted planning permission to build a house on some land I bought. I hired builders and an architect and paid for all the building materials, then spent a year living in a caravan while the house was built. Needless to say the mortgage was pretty big - but worth the investment of my time and money In the long run.
Except oh no! the planning permission has been revoked! they are telling me to tear down my house and **** off somewhere else.
And my neighbors cant understand why I'm a little aggrieved at the loss of so much time and money and effort expended on something I have to tear down. "You did'nt have a house last year" they are saying. Why do you need one now?
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.06 13:45:00 -
[23]
Originally by: CommmanderInChief
Originally by: Brooks Puuntai
Was longer then a few months ago. Try almost a year.
Fair enough a year - still not long ago tho was it m8? There was nothing at all before this.
This idea of 0.0 space not occupied is not correct, renters still existed ALOT. Atlas, PL, Bob had masses of renters, to name a few.
But now renters have to pay billions, and your right logi and everything else, and support was just not going to help anyone.
Small alliances/corps where never ever going to be able to move into 0.0 space without being a renter - ever. Because 0.0 regions are controlled mainly by stations, you dont have access to anything your stuck. Thats why no one moved their before. You cant live in these regions when you got a 2000+ man alliance removing your ihub and tcu in a matter of seconds, and there is nothing you can do about it. All that hard work and isk gone in an instant. Thats the issue.
A year ago those people also got outblobbed. A year ago however I was in a 0.0 sov holding alliance, but didnt actually make my ISK in 0.0, I had to run lvl 4 missions for my serious income (by some ratting and sometimes exploration I could make enough for losing a BC sometimes, but not enough to get a cap, or a bunch of sniper BS, when they were still used). A year ago I could set my AP to the other side of eve 0.0 and most likely make it, in a freighter.
Blobs also are not a problem, this is a sandbox, if we want to NAP half of eve that is our choice, and CCP shouldnt try to change that (not in the least because they fail horribly and have no idea what drives the large coalitions). However before you (or others) rage at that, what is an issue is the dominion sov mechanics (and tbh also the previous one), where taking sov is simply a matter of bringing a larger blob than your opponent at a few timers and you got sov. This is the real problem, being able to form blobs is fine, being forced to blob if you want to hold space is the issue. In a good sov system (activity based for example), if one side is twice as strong as the other side, they get twice as much space. However right now defending your first or your 100th system isnt much different in difficulty, in both cases you just need to bring a large enough blob, and that is the issue.
After being kicked out of our space several times because the other side simply brought a bigger blob for timers, while in day to day life we actually controlled those systems, I realised that the only way to prevent that is to be part of a bigger blob than the other side, so thats what I did.
Like someone else said, they now remove the only positive thing about dominion, while keeping the entire problem with blobs: the dominion sov system.
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Rrama Ratamnim
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Posted - 2011.04.06 13:50:00 -
[24]
the sad part is its not the big alliances that will feel this hurt as much as so many idiots think it will...
Those alliances already control the F*CKING TECH MOONS so have no need for anomolies for the most part...
Anomolies were a treat to lure members otu of hisec into alliances that held space with them as a means to outperform level 4's and make personal wallets bigger...
The issue with this latest change they are wanting to do is that the giant 100+ super cap fleet fielding alliances, will still hold the damn tech moons, they will just also shift slightly to grab the -1 to -0.5 systems as well...
the only ones this hurts are the smaller alliances, that yes rented for 2B a month, but were more or less happy as they got some blue standings, they got some protection, they got anomolies they could offer to new members to run, and they got space they could hapily operate out of and defend and develop....
-0.1 to -0.4 are going to be WASTELANDS, ihubs and tcu's will drop and never go back up as who the hell will spend the 100m's to take a system and all the headache, to only be SC crushed for a system that never would EVER pay back the millions in upkeep each month without the necessary upgrades...
mining you say? HA, mining in nullsec is better than hisec but still isnt a very good profession vs level 4 missioning and salvaging in safe hisec
the fact is with these change HUGE SWATHS of space are now useless, billions of ISK in upgrades are now useless... and in turn huge amounts of ISK drains are now gone, because Concord is not going to be getting paid for all those damn -0.1 to -0.4 systems that used to be rented out to newer alliances.
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Lt Pizi
Gallente
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2011.04.06 14:06:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Rrama Ratamnim
the sad part is its not the big alliances that will feel this hurt as much as so many idiots think it will...
Those alliances already control the F*CKING TECH MOONS so have no need for anomolies for the most part...
Anomolies were a treat to lure members otu of hisec into alliances that held space with them as a means to outperform level 4's and make personal wallets bigger...
The issue with this latest change they are wanting to do is that the giant 100+ super cap fleet fielding alliances, will still hold the damn tech moons, they will just also shift slightly to grab the -1 to -0.5 systems as well...
the only ones this hurts are the smaller alliances, that yes rented for 2B a month, but were more or less happy as they got some blue standings, they got some protection, they got anomolies they could offer to new members to run, and they got space they could hapily operate out of and defend and develop....
-0.1 to -0.4 are going to be WASTELANDS, ihubs and tcu's will drop and never go back up as who the hell will spend the 100m's to take a system and all the headache, to only be SC crushed for a system that never would EVER pay back the millions in upkeep each month without the necessary upgrades...
mining you say? HA, mining in nullsec is better than hisec but still isnt a very good profession vs level 4 missioning and salvaging in safe hisec
the fact is with these change HUGE SWATHS of space are now useless, billions of ISK in upgrades are now useless... and in turn huge amounts of ISK drains are now gone, because Concord is not going to be getting paid for all those damn -0.1 to -0.4 systems that used to be rented out to newer alliances.
an 0.01 system can generate you 300b A MONTH if run 23/7
a tec moon does what ? 3b
so any given 00 had the ability to replace 100 tec moons
cant you see whats wrong in this picture??
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The Offerer
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Posted - 2011.04.06 14:25:00 -
[26]
Originally by: CommmanderInChief
Did we not ONLY A FEW MONTHS ago NOT have these in the first place? Before Dominion we did not have upgrades, and sanctums and havens at all! We had to just probe for some crappy anoms thats it!!
Eve community coped very well for the past 7 years without these upgrades so why the big whine about it now?
Because many invested huge amounts of ISK to settle in and upgrade their new 0.0 home only to get a message "Sorry, folks. We were joking. You can't support your small alliance in 0.0 space. Oh, and btw... those upgrades and all the ISK you invested... they are kinda wasted now, but it's for your own good."
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CommmanderInChief
Comply Or Die
Shit.Happens
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Posted - 2011.04.06 18:03:00 -
[27]
Originally by: The Offerer
Originally by: CommmanderInChief
Did we not ONLY A FEW MONTHS ago NOT have these in the first place? Before Dominion we did not have upgrades, and sanctums and havens at all! We had to just probe for some crappy anoms thats it!!
Eve community coped very well for the past 7 years without these upgrades so why the big whine about it now?
Because many invested huge amounts of ISK to settle in and upgrade their new 0.0 home only to get a message "Sorry, folks. We were joking. You can't support your small alliance in 0.0 space. Oh, and btw... those upgrades and all the ISK you invested... they are kinda wasted now, but it's for your own good."
I totally agree from a small alliance/renter point of view its another kick in the teeth. However i have no sympathy for the large alliances
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CommmanderInChief
Comply Or Die
Shit.Happens
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Posted - 2011.04.06 18:11:00 -
[28]
Edited by: CommmanderInChief on 06/04/2011 18:17:57
Edited by: CommmanderInChief on 06/04/2011 18:17:01
Originally by: Lt Pizi
Originally by: Rrama Ratamnim
the sad part is its not the big alliances that will feel this hurt as much as so many idiots think it will...
Those alliances already control the F*CKING TECH MOONS so have no need for anomolies for the most part...
Anomolies were a treat to lure members otu of hisec into alliances that held space with them as a means to outperform level 4's and make personal wallets bigger...
The issue with this latest change they are wanting to do is that the giant 100+ super cap fleet fielding alliances, will still hold the damn tech moons, they will just also shift slightly to grab the -1 to -0.5 systems as well...
the only ones this hurts are the smaller alliances, that yes rented for 2B a month, but were more or less happy as they got some blue standings, they got some protection, they got anomolies they could offer to new members to run, and they got space they could hapily operate out of and defend and develop....
-0.1 to -0.4 are going to be WASTELANDS, ihubs and tcu's will drop and never go back up as who the hell will spend the 100m's to take a system and all the headache, to only be SC crushed for a system that never would EVER pay back the millions in upkeep each month without the necessary upgrades...
mining you say? HA, mining in nullsec is better than hisec but still isnt a very good profession vs level 4 missioning and salvaging in safe hisec
the fact is with these change HUGE SWATHS of space are now useless, billions of ISK in upgrades are now useless... and in turn huge amounts of ISK drains are now gone, because Concord is not going to be getting paid for all those damn -0.1 to -0.4 systems that used to be rented out to newer alliances.
an 0.01 system can generate you 300b A MONTH if run 23/7
a tec moon does what ? 3b
so any given 00 had the ability to replace 100 tec moons
cant you see whats wrong in this picture??
firstly who the hell does sanctum 23/7! & days a week - or are you a botter then?
You would need ALOT of people doing them constantly in Supers to make anywhere near that.
3 billion? Lol have you any idea how much a tech moon gives?
lets do the maths
2400 units per day * 30 days per month (avg) = 72000
72000 x 100,000 tech per unit! (im just using a nice roundnumber of 100K its around that in Jita) = 72 BILLION PER MONTH off one moon!!!
so Venal - 70 tech moons = 5 trillion ISK per month!! for NC!! just in Venal
are you fecking kidding me! this crap ^^ makes me soooo angry! and CCP nerf anoms to help balance it out...what a joke
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Lt Pizi
Gallente
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2011.04.06 18:50:00 -
[29]
firstly who the hell does sanctum 23/7! & days a week - or are you a botter then? ,,,, any corp can do that
You would need ALOT of people doing them constantly in Supers to make anywhere near that. ... supers dont make 100/m its more like 150n/h and up
3 billion? Lol have you any idea how much a tech moon gives? ... here i was wrong i admit
so using your numbers ... any crap system in 00 has the ability to pruduce 4 -6 times the amount of tech moon thats still totally out of proportion and thats why Grays plan may work
always keep in mind that there is more to come to 00 maybe moons next
(i still think they hold back some tech to keep it high)
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Anna Hiliate
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Posted - 2011.04.06 21:18:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Anna Hiliate on 06/04/2011 21:23:01
I have to ask, what is this change that is happening?
Think I found it, this?
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