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Eternal Noob	Posted - 2011.04.15 23:59:00 - [91] Edited by: Eternal Noob on 16/04/2011 00:01:38 But keeping one of these interceptors around, even if they get blowed up and they will, will not decrease a Falcon's efficacy? btw I would say that 2 SD's, no ECCM module, and something wildcard is a pretty damn effective anti-Falcon interceptor. He doesn't need to fit badass modules. He does need to have max skills. Either way he dies, but the gang wins.
Terianna Eri Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2011.04.16 00:00:00 - [92] Originally by: Eternal Noob Originally by: Terianna Eri whatever. I don't like your persona really at all. But you did make a h4wT av It's been a pretty bad day for me and arguing on the internet never makes me feel better But thank you ________________ Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
Eternal Noob	Posted - 2011.04.16 00:04:00 - [93] Edited by: Eternal Noob on 16/04/2011 00:04:44 This is all small(er) gang warfare theory anyway. Before that certain "your fleet has reached nullification via lag that nullifies all EWAR" size. What is that? like 30 v 30 max? I mean your FC will not be catering to you The Interceptor anyway, you would need to know who to hit immediately.
Lara Dontral	Posted - 2011.04.16 00:08:00 - [94] Originally by: Eternal Noob Edited by: Eternal Noob on 16/04/2011 00:01:38 But keeping one of these interceptors around, even if they get blowed up and they will, will not decrease a Falcon's efficacy? btw I would say that 2 SD's, no ECCM module, and something wildcard is a pretty damn effective anti-Falcon interceptor. He doesn't need to fit badass modules. He does need to have max skills. Either way he dies, but the gang wins. How exactly does it ruin the Falcon's efficacy if he can still target at his optimal range? Two SDs with max skills loaded with dampening scripts can still only drop a Falcon's targeting range down to 54km, and most of them work at 45-50. A ship that gets SD bonuses is more effective in this regard, but once more this turns into having a ship in your fleet that exists exclusively to counter a Falcon, which means that any encounter where a Falcon is not present leaves you a man down since Sensor Dampeners have only limited usefulness in small gang encounters.
Eternal Noob	Posted - 2011.04.16 00:14:00 - [95] hey look, it would complicate a less-than-stellar Falcon pilot's life, most definitely. This is an interceptor that knows he going to be a pod, or worse. Falcon pilot better target very fast interceptor with a correct ECM, while still thinking about other things. Meanwhile, the DPS ships can lock Falcon (situationally). Believe me, some crazy interceptor pilot can complicate the pilot enough to where he is not some battlefield God, unless he really really knows what he's doing. And this is just an interceptor solution. Imagine a recon cooperation going. Yes it all escalates and I know I know.
Lara Dontral	Posted - 2011.04.16 00:18:00 - [96] Originally by: Eternal Noob hey look, it would complicate a less-than-stellar Falcon pilot's life, most definitely. You keep saying that, but how? The Falcon can go about his business unhindered. How is this complication?
Terianna Eri Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2011.04.16 00:30:00 - [97] Originally by: Lara Dontral Originally by: Eternal Noob hey look, it would complicate a less-than-stellar Falcon pilot's life, most definitely. You keep saying that, but how? The Falcon can go about his business unhindered. How is this complication? A Falcon has about 50km optimal with its jammers and another 50km of falloff. While ideally, yes, all the enemy targets will be exactly 50km away, in a real fight, even a close one, the clashing fleets are probably in a sphere 20-30km across. If the Falcon is on the edge of its range, and you damp it down to its 50km optimal, suddenly there are a lot of ships that the falcon would be able to jam (with a slightly reduced chance due to falloff) that it would no longer be able to. Alternatively it seems likely that putting the rarely-used scan res damps onto a falcon would help substantially, as even if nothing burns out towards it, I've been led to believe that locking new targets quickly is important to the operation of a falcon. ________________ Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
Lara Dontral	Posted - 2011.04.16 00:36:00 - [98] Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: Lara Dontral Originally by: Eternal Noob hey look, it would complicate a less-than-stellar Falcon pilot's life, most definitely. You keep saying that, but how? The Falcon can go about his business unhindered. How is this complication? A Falcon has about 50km optimal with its jammers and another 50km of falloff. While ideally, yes, all the enemy targets will be exactly 50km away, in a real fight, even a close one, the clashing fleets are probably in a sphere 20-30km across. If the Falcon is on the edge of its range, and you damp it down to its 50km optimal, suddenly there are a lot of ships that the falcon would be able to jam (with a slightly reduced chance due to falloff) that it would no longer be able to. Alternatively it seems likely that putting the rarely-used scan res damps onto a falcon would help substantially, as even if nothing burns out towards it, I've been led to believe that locking new targets quickly is important to the operation of a falcon. I figured as much, but I was more attacking the use of an interceptor specifically. At the very least, if you're going through with this idea I would recommend a Keres since it gets a dampening bonus and has twice the sensor strength of an interceptor. This might work, but again I don't like the idea that you have to weaken your fleet's effectiveness overall just to get an edge on an ECM boat.
Eternal Noob	Posted - 2011.04.16 00:37:00 - [99] i think properly fit interceptor or two brings a world of hurt to your Falcon. The one single human being behind the Falcon can only do so much at one time.
Lara Dontral	Posted - 2011.04.16 01:02:00 - [100] Edited by: Lara Dontral on 16/04/2011 01:02:15 Originally by: Eternal Noob i think properly fit interceptor or two brings a world of hurt to your Falcon. The one single human being behind the Falcon can only do so much at one time. In terms of DPS, if you're going to have two pilots attack the Falcon, you're better off putting them in ships that are actually intended to do DPS. Hell, a pair of Heavy Missile Caracals would be more of a threat to a Falcon than a pair of Interceptors. Why not just have two HM Drakes? They can easily hit the Falcon at that range and they're a bit harder to jam. Why not just bring five Drakes to take out the Falcon? That's even faster!
Eternal Noob	Posted - 2011.04.16 01:08:00 - [101] The DPS crowd screams for advantage-support, in the form of which I mentioned. not only would a standard interceptor, most like Stiletto, distract your average Falcon(s), if he's wielding race-specific jams, he will have to actually think for a second. Someone had mentioned the Keres, hell, an EAF actually being useful? whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat??????????????? Any one of your DPS gang only needs a lock and an alpha. If any 2 BCs gets a lock and a volley on turrets, it's over. The Falcon is over. The Falcon pilot has choices to make, if you make an annoyance with an interceptor. Do I care about the interceptor, even with my drones on aggressive while he's dampening me? What about those cruisers sniper-fit? What racials do I have fit? With only one annoying interceptor you could make that guy make wrong decisions, enough to get him locked and volleyed.
Lara Dontral	Posted - 2011.04.16 01:11:00 - [102] Originally by: Eternal Noob The DPS crowd screams for advantage-support, in the form of which I mentioned. not only would a standard interceptor, most like Stiletto, distract your average Falcon(s), if he's wielding race-specific jams, he will have to actually think for a second. Someone had mentioned the Keres, hell, an EAF actually being useful? whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat??????????????? Any one of your DPS gang only needs a lock and an alpha. If any 2 BCs gets a lock and a volley on turrets, it's over. The Falcon is over. The Falcon pilot has choices to make, if you make an annoyance with an interceptor. Do I care about the interceptor, even with my drones on aggressive while he's dampening me? What about those cruisers sniper-fit? What racials do I have fit? With only one annoying interceptor you could make that guy make wrong decisions, enough to get him locked and volleyed. Still, you're completely ignoring the fact that you're having to drop a man and put him in a ship exclusively to combat a Falcon. What happens if there's no Falcon? That interceptor isn't going to put out a ton of DPS, and if he does he's going to get chewed up by drones. Your sniper-fit cruisers still lose DPS, so if you have them with you and engage a group with no Falcons, once more you're at a disadvantage, and all because you configured your fleet for the off chance that you might encounter a Falcon...so the mere existence of the Falcon and its feared ECM abilities are causing problems before you even undock.
Eternal Noob	Posted - 2011.04.16 01:15:00 - [103] Interceptors are there to die. They will die. The pilots will understand. They will be in jumpclones. This is all small gang theory, just to re-iterate.
Lara Dontral	Posted - 2011.04.16 01:19:00 - [104] Originally by: Eternal Noob Interceptors are there to die. They will die. The pilots will understand. They will be in jumpclones. This is all small gang theory, just to re-iterate. You're still missing the point, and by now I don't think it will ever sink in...
Eternal Noob	Posted - 2011.04.16 01:23:00 - [105] No by now you are saying a typical Falcon pilot will make all the right decisions, have all the right ECM, and will do all right things. He can handle any immediate speed-threat, while jamming the rest of the field. And he can do it all easily. You really, really need to just finish your Falcon skills and fly one.
Helferle	Posted - 2011.04.16 01:26:00 - [106] Counter to all t1-ECM-ships and Widow -> 1x RSD (one module for an entire ship).
Lara Dontral	Posted - 2011.04.16 01:32:00 - [107] Edited by: Lara Dontral on 16/04/2011 01:32:35 Originally by: Eternal Noob No by now you are saying a typical Falcon pilot will make all the right decisions, have all the right ECM, and will do all right things. He can handle any immediate speed-threat, while jamming the rest of the field. And he can do it all easily. You really, really need to just finish your Falcon skills and fly one. I do fly one. This entire complaint is from someone that's been on both sides of ECM, not just one. It amuses me that people assume that I wouldn't possibly attack ECM if I'm benefiting from it, which leads me to believe that the staunch advocates of leaving it the way it is all probably have Falcon alts. There is a larger margin of error for a Falcon pilot than you imply. Even if you screw up and miss a jam, unless the target you're jamming can kill you in 20 seconds (which does not happen as often as people pretend it does), you're fine. Seeing an interceptor on the field doesn't suddenly send me into a panic. Yes, I've lost my fair share of Falcons due to missed jams and surprises, but I've assisted in far more kills...easily a 10-1 ratio. It's not JUST the Falcon pilot, it's him plus the DPS ships in his fleet. I've personally kept multiple targets perma-jammed (or nearly so) and watched as they could do nothing while my fleet chewed them up...sometimes at an agonizingly slow pace while they were unable to do anything. I've watched three assault ships take out two battleships because I was fitted with the right racials and kept both battleships jammed. The fight probably took close to ten minutes, but it was ten minutes where the battleship pilots literally sat there and did nothing because they couldn't do anything. I know how powerful the Falcon and Scorpion are because I've flown them dozens of times and because I've died to them dozens of times.
Eternal Noob	Posted - 2011.04.16 01:34:00 - [108] To fly the Keres, you need Amarr Frigate (5), and EAF Frigate (5). max his skills and suddenly your Falcon is dead duck. WITH SD of all things. How many corp mates fly the Keres? NOT MANY that are on with you at any one time I bet. But more people need to be into this ship.
Lara Dontral	Posted - 2011.04.16 01:35:00 - [109] Originally by: Helferle Edited by: Helferle on 16/04/2011 01:26:35 Counter to all non-Recon ECM-ships -> 1x RSD (one module for an entire ship). Okay, so that (sometimes) works on the other 10% of the ECM boats that undock.
Lara Dontral	Posted - 2011.04.16 01:38:00 - [110] Originally by: Eternal Noob To fly the Keres, you need Amarr Frigate (5), and EAF Frigate (5). max his skills and suddenly your Falcon is dead duck. WITH SD of all things. How many corp mates fly the Keres? NOT MANY that are on with you at any one time I bet. But more people need to be into this ship. Right, so you have a guy in your fleet that's good at taking out the Falcon, but if you run into a group that doesn't have a Falcon, you...oh...he's mostly worthless. Let me spell this out: IF YOU HAVE TO PUT A SHIP IN YOUR FLEET THAT CAN COUNTER ECM BUT IS NEARLY WORTHLESS IN MOST OTHER SITUATIONS, IT IS NOT A REASONABLE MECHANIC. There, italic, bold, and underlined...hopefully that's clear enough.
Eternal Noob	Posted - 2011.04.16 01:38:00 - [111] Edited by: Eternal Noob on 16/04/2011 01:39:57 No matter what, it sounds like you are in regular small combat, which is a total blessing. So many players only wished they were in regular small(er) combat. ed: right, but the guy is there. I sure as hell would be there, give me 3 weeks!
Eternal Noob	Posted - 2011.04.16 01:46:00 - [112] And hey, wtf@Keres SDing is not useful in any other situation? Hell it even has the space for a drone
Helferle	Posted - 2011.04.16 01:59:00 - [113] Edited by: Helferle on 16/04/2011 02:00:23 Originally by: Lara Dontral Originally by: Helferle Edited by: Helferle on 16/04/2011 01:26:35 Counter to all non-Recon ECM-ships -> 1x RSD (one module for an entire ship). Okay, so that (sometimes) works on the other 10% of the ECM boats that undock. 90% is falcon? not in my eve. Anyway...2xRSD = 100% ECM-Recon shutdown. With that low targeting range they are forced to close combat, where large pulse, ACs or longrange guns will shred them in no time. Get a gallente recon with 2xRSD in your gang and you can nullify 1-2 ecm-ships depending on ship. Lachesis/Arazu is pretty safe against ECM...high sensor strength and who carries lots of gallente racials anyway. Thats why RSD are Gallente-ECM. They force Caldari to close range.
Lara Dontral	Posted - 2011.04.16 02:32:00 - [114] Edited by: Lara Dontral on 16/04/2011 02:31:57 Originally by: Helferle Edited by: Helferle on 16/04/2011 02:00:23 Originally by: Lara Dontral Originally by: Helferle Edited by: Helferle on 16/04/2011 01:26:35 Counter to all non-Recon ECM-ships -> 1x RSD (one module for an entire ship). Okay, so that (sometimes) works on the other 10% of the ECM boats that undock. 90% is falcon? not in my eve. Anyway...2xRSD = 100% ECM-Recon shutdown. With that low targeting range they are forced to close combat, where large pulse, ACs or longrange guns will shred them in no time. Get a gallente recon with 2xRSD in your gang and you can nullify 1-2 ecm-ships depending on ship. Lachesis/Arazu is pretty safe against ECM...high sensor strength and who carries lots of gallente racials anyway. Thats why RSD are Gallente-ECM. They force Caldari to close range. Please, please read the thread before commenting. That point has already been attempted several times. My entire point was that having to use a ship specifically to counteract the Falcon is ridiculous.
Cat IntheBox	Posted - 2011.04.16 02:45:00 - [115] I'm starting to think your point is obsolete, at very best. You are a Hammer that sees everything as a nail. If anything, TD needs a boost.
Terianna Eri Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2011.04.16 02:51:00 - [116] Originally by: Cat IntheBox I'm starting to think your point is obsolete, at very best. You are a Hammer that sees everything as a nail. If anything, TD needs a boost. How so? TDs are incredibly useful against turrets, even unbonused. They're in a good place imo; very useful at doing what they set out to do but not a point where the target has basically no way to counteract the effects once applied. ________________ Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
Lara Dontral	Posted - 2011.04.16 03:00:00 - [117] Originally by: Cat IntheBox I'm starting to think your point is obsolete, at very best. You are a Hammer that sees everything as a nail. If anything, TD needs a boost. A hammer? No, what I'm saying is that currently ECM is basically the all-in-one ewar. Other types of ewar work against any enemy, while the others are target specific. SD only works on long-range ships. TD only works on turret boats. TP only works on small ships. Larger ones already take full explosion radius / turret tracking damage. ECM works on everything. Drone boats are arguably the least affected, but that's a minor consolation.
Kryptos Sanguar SOLAR KNIGHTS of the NEW DAWN	Posted - 2011.04.16 03:15:00 - [118] ECM outclasses all other EWAR hands down, only neuts come close, but ECM is still better for sure. Just because something has been nerfed, doesn't mean it isn't still overpowered. If a certain type of frigate ammo did 100000 damage per shot and was then heavily nerfed (let's say 50%), it would still do 50000 per shot, so it would still be insanely broken. ECM isn't THAT overpowered, but it illustrates my point well enough.
Lara Dontral	Posted - 2011.04.16 03:20:00 - [119] The mere fact that it's even possible to permanently jam someone illustrates the point that ECM is unbalanced.
Helferle	Posted - 2011.04.16 03:26:00 - [120] Originally by: Lara Dontral My entire point was that having to use a ship specifically to counteract the Falcon is ridiculous. Not a ship...modules to counter a ship. A gallente recon or other ships fielding RSD have much more slots usable in a fight. In terms of Lachesis...long range point and 300+dps. Gallente recons aren't really THAT bad beside RSDs. Even a ****ing celestis any rookie can field can fit for anti-ECM for their gang. I think this low-skill and low-cost ship is a valuable asset to protect your gang from ECM. Great rookie pvp-cruiser for gang use. I'd take it over any other t1 cruiser when enemy ECM is possible. Blackbirds won't jam falcons anyway. It's your choice at gang formup...do you want to get e.g. 600dps (Lachesis -> BS) more or risk to get 3-5 ships of you disabled in offense and rr by a single ship? Its a question about how defensive/offensive your gang will be. Its a tactical decision. Or lets change your statement like this: Having to use a falcon specifically to counteract logistics is rediculous. What about that? If all of your ship are fitted the same way....tank and gank...its a homogenious (?) fleet with low versatility and obvious vulnerabilities. If you don't protect your gang to be resistant to E-War, how can you expect not getting ECMed? Its too easy to say: I won't fit other mods because I don't want to so nerf E-War. E-War (except maybe the Painters) is spice for tactical combat. Too bad it suffers in bigger fights cause of the lack of splitting up the E-War-Ships between the targets. Especially FOTM-Winmatar is weak against ECM...its good to see that even the best ships can be countered in some way. Even TD does wonders against those falloff-monsters. DISCLAIMER: I'm talking abount smallscale engagements. So no relevance to 0.0 lagfights. Am lowsec dweller. The ECM Nerf was good...Range was way to high before it. Now the optimal and falloff of ECM-Modules are very good balanced. A pulse Apoc with ECCM can pretty much instakill those ships at 70km and still has tank and gank (but maybe a sensor booster and/or point less due to eccm and tracking computer). Those ages where you could jam 6 ships at 200km are over and that was a great step.

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