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Fight Song Amarr Power Penguin Pew	Posted - 2011.04.18 22:41:00 - [31] Originally by: Eternum Praetorian As you can see botters are like ninjas... they are freakin everywhere. as a ninja i take offense to being compared to a bot! IMA NINJA hiding in ze shadow making whats yours mine, through actions!
Chevex	Posted - 2011.04.18 22:44:00 - [32] Edited by: Chevex on 18/04/2011 22:47:03 Edited by: Chevex on 18/04/2011 22:44:37 Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 18/04/2011 22:29:59 And how about this stance that Bots are 100% impossible to deal with under any circumstances is a complete load of crap. Propagated by people like you... Edit: As you can see botters are like ninjas... they are freakin everywhere. If you were actually a programmer you would see the ignorance in your assertion that you can stop all bots. I hate bots just as much as everyone, but I'm not dumb enough to think that it's easy to stop them. Bots are just programs written to perform a task. Tell me, how would you put a stop to a total UI automation bot? I smart enough program could operate at such an abstract level that you would have no idea it wasn't a real person without paying very close attention and monitoring the person for a long period of time. Bots can take many different forms. Your assumption that there is only a small number of ways to make a bot is silly. I've had to write UI automation programs just to interact with 3rd party software that provides no API to hook into and I can tell you, while difficult, it's not impossible and the program would have no clue it wasn't being controlled by a human being. The most you can reliably do while getting the fewest false positives would be to observe the player behavior and catch them performing robot-like tasks. If the solution were really that simple and CCP could just knock all bots off the game, they would. To say otherwise is just pathetic, ignorant conspiracy-mongering. It's like saying "big pharma" holds back the cure for cancer because they make more money treating the symptoms and keeping you sick. The amount of money the cure for cancer would make the company that discovered/marketed it would completely eclipse any money they currently make by billions and billions. Same goes for game developers. The end-all bot preventer would not only make their player-base happy and not disenchant so many players, but it would also be a marketable product that other developers would buy up in a heart beat, not the least of which is Blizzard. Lord knows they need your magic anti-bot knowledge and they make more money and pull in more top development talent than any company in the industry. Originally by: Yuki Kulotsuki Lalalalalalalala. Everyone who disagrees is a nasty botter. Lalalalalalalalala. Win. /thread
Shawna Gray Gallente	Posted - 2011.04.18 22:45:00 - [33] Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 18/04/2011 22:25:58 Originally by: Chevex Edited by: Chevex on 18/04/2011 22:22:12 ITT OP stands in front of the mirror, hands on his hips, chest out, wearing an egotistical grin as he says to himself under his breath "God damn it I'm awesome. I am just bursting with ideas. I could fix the universe. It's just so simple. I don't know why all these programmers are so stupid." Your describing most of the eve player base everyday they log on I also think there are plenty of smart people running around this forum (and in game) who could do some great things for eve in terms of balance and content... way better then CCP is doing right now. Looking forward to trying out your new MMO. When is the releasedate?
Mortania Minmatar Kinetic Cartel	Posted - 2011.04.18 22:45:00 - [34] Hmm, the OP is basically right. The guy who writes his own bot and never publicizes it and passes it word of mouth not on the internet, is probably such a small part of the problem. Crushing the back of it with the most common bots would reduce the problem significantly. It would mean spending time trawling the internets for more and more bots, but it could work. Basically punkbuster for EVE.
Chevex	Posted - 2011.04.18 22:48:00 - [35] Originally by: Shawna Gray Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 18/04/2011 22:25:58 Originally by: Chevex Edited by: Chevex on 18/04/2011 22:22:12 ITT OP stands in front of the mirror, hands on his hips, chest out, wearing an egotistical grin as he says to himself under his breath "God damn it I'm awesome. I am just bursting with ideas. I could fix the universe. It's just so simple. I don't know why all these programmers are so stupid." Your describing most of the eve player base everyday they log on I also think there are plenty of smart people running around this forum (and in game) who could do some great things for eve in terms of balance and content... way better then CCP is doing right now. Looking forward to trying out your new MMO. When is the releasedate? lawl
Eternum Praetorian	Posted - 2011.04.18 22:53:00 - [36] A Thread Addition Really think about what people are saying when they shoot down every anti-botting thread that appears. They are saying that in this day and age there is absolutely no conceivable way in hell to detect a macro manipulating your mouse and keyboard. Allow me to repeat that for the simple minded... They mean to tell you that THERE IS NO WAY TO DETECT THAT THIS IS HAPPENING None... It is totally impossible There is absolutely no conceivable way in hell... you might as well be in an Ibis taking on a Polaris frigate. The EVE forum trolls will have you believe this is unquestionable truth, where in fact it is a fallacy spread (in large part) people who have or are presently using bots in game. To say that commonly available programs that anyone can buy online is 100% invisible and immune to detection is stupidity incarnate. Think about it.
Chevex	Posted - 2011.04.18 22:58:00 - [37] Edited by: Chevex on 18/04/2011 23:01:01 Edited by: Chevex on 18/04/2011 22:58:49 Edited by: Chevex on 18/04/2011 22:57:53 Originally by: Eternum Praetorian A Thread Addition Really think about what people are saying when they shoot down every anti-botting thread that appears. They are saying that in this day and age there is absolutely no conceivable way in hell to detect a macro manipulating your mouse and keyboard. Allow me to repeat that for the simple minded... They mean to tell you that THERE IS NO WAY TO DETECT THAT THIS IS HAPPENING None... It is totally impossible There is absolutely no conceivable way in hell... you might as well be in an Ibis taking on a Polaris frigate. The EVE forum trolls will have you believe this is unquestionable truth, where in fact it is a fallacy spread (in large part) people who have or are presently using bots in game. To say that commonly available programs that anyone can buy online is 100% invisible and immune to detection is stupidity incarnate. Think about it. Now you're putting words into our mouths. Nobody said there was no way to detect them. Certainly, if you were aware of a UI automation bot (WHICH DOES NOT USE A MACRO) you could write your software to detect and remove it based on given parameters. This however, is often a violation of the software's legal agreement as it has to reach out into your machine and (invasively) modify files (wherever they are) that might be manipulating EVE in some way. My point is, you are not a programmer and you are steeped in ignorance. Go learn some more about how computers work before you come spouting your assumptions in everyone's faces. Many bots can mimic user input at the operating system level. No software could detect that without becoming "invasive" and controlling your machine more than it is allowed to. That is grounds for a lawsuit if a company overstepped those bounds. Seriously, your failure to understand how something works is not evidence to support your claim. Go away. And take your ideological bull**** with you.
Eternum Praetorian	Posted - 2011.04.18 22:59:00 - [38] Originally by: Shawna Gray Looking forward to trying out your new MMO. When is the releasedate? ATM it is closed beta and should be coming out sometime next year. Word has it that there is dramatic storyline value and no skilling up... all set in a modern day setting. Th ebest part is the pleasant atmosphere of a forum filled with unjaded vets interested in bettering a brand new dream world before marketing plans flush it down the toilet. Looking forward to it TBH. You might find it if you google "new and awesome MMO" because that's how I did TSW
Xylengra	Posted - 2011.04.18 23:02:00 - [39] Originally by: Eternum Praetorian A Thread Addition Really think about what people are saying when they shoot down every anti-botting thread that appears. They are saying that in this day and age there is absolutely no conceivable way in hell to detect a macro manipulating your mouse and keyboard. Allow me to repeat that for the simple minded... They mean to tell you that THERE IS NO WAY TO DETECT THAT THIS IS HAPPENING None... It is totally impossible There is absolutely no conceivable way in hell... you might as well be in an Ibis taking on a Polaris frigate. The EVE forum trolls will have you believe this is unquestionable truth, where in fact it is a fallacy spread (in large part) people who have or are presently using bots in game. To say that commonly available programs that anyone can buy online is 100% invisible and immune to detection is stupidity incarnate. Think about it. No, what 'they' are telling YOU is that there are so many ways to macro the repetitive tasks inherent in Eve that neither CCP or (lol) YOU can ever stamp them out. Good lord, man, think about it. Pattern recognition? RNG throws in random mouse and keyboard functions that do nothing to interfere with the basic functionality of the macro. Can some be caught and put to rest? Of course. ALL of them, forever? Never. Oh, and go ahead and call me a botter, fool. Spend your time researching me. Report me. Waste all the time you want. BTW, when you are trying to tell everyone how simple some solution is, avoid words like always and never - nature just doesn't work like that.
Chevex	Posted - 2011.04.18 23:02:00 - [40] Edited by: Chevex on 18/04/2011 23:07:31 Edited by: Chevex on 18/04/2011 23:06:24 Edited by: Chevex on 18/04/2011 23:05:48 Originally by: Xylengra Originally by: Eternum Praetorian A Thread Addition words No, what 'they' are telling YOU is that there are so many ways to macro the repetitive tasks inherent in Eve that neither CCP or (lol) YOU can ever stamp them out. Good lord, man, think about it. Pattern recognition? RNG throws in random mouse and keyboard functions that do nothing to interfere with the basic functionality of the macro. Can some be caught and put to rest? Of course. ALL of them, forever? Never. Oh, and go ahead and call me a botter, fool. Spend your time researching me. Report me. Waste all the time you want. BTW, when you are trying to tell everyone how simple some solution is, avoid words like always and never - nature just doesn't work like that. This. Originally by: Yuki Kulotsuki Really think about what people are saying when they propose an anti-botting silver bullet. They are saying that in this day and age there is an absolutely fool proof way to detect every possible permutation of a macro manipulating your mouse and keyboard with no false positives. Ignoring the possibility of a program pretending to be a USB input device, a program embedded on a USB input device or by-passing UI input entirely and just hooking into the program process itself. Programs are easy to identify and do not alter their characteristics or signatures dynamically. That is not to say that because a perfect solution cannot be reached, any solution should be rejected. Far from it. But to believe that the perfect solution is simple or any effective solution is simple is naive at best. And to advocate giving a private entity carte blanche on a private computer system is for lack of correct polite word: silly. And this. Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Originally by: Shawna Gray Looking forward to trying out your new MMO. When is the releasedate? ATM it is closed beta and should be coming out sometime next year. Word has it that there is dramatic storyline value and no skilling up... all set in a modern day setting. Th ebest part is the pleasant atmosphere of a forum filled with unjaded vets interested in bettering a brand new dream world before marketing plans flush it down the toilet. Looking forward to it TBH. You might find it if you google "new and awesome MMO" because that's how I did TSW ***Chevex realizes he is being trolled by this thread. Touche.
Yuki Kulotsuki	Posted - 2011.04.18 23:04:00 - [41] Really think about what people are saying when they propose an anti-botting silver bullet. They are saying that in this day and age there is an absolutely fool proof way to detect every possible permutation of a macro manipulating your mouse and keyboard with no false positives. Ignoring the possibility of a program pretending to be a USB input device, a program embedded on a USB input device or by-passing UI input entirely and just hooking into the program process itself. Programs are easy to identify and do not alter their characteristics or signatures dynamically. That is not to say that because a perfect solution cannot be reached, any solution should be rejected. Far from it. But to believe that the perfect solution is simple or any effective solution is simple is naive at best. And to advocate giving a private entity carte blanche on a private computer system is for lack of correct polite word: silly. -- Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link?
Eternum Praetorian	Posted - 2011.04.18 23:09:00 - [42] Originally by: Chevex Seriously, your failure to understand how something works is not evidence to support your claim. Go away. I am calling a epic load of bull**** on your part. Anything that you agree to in an EULA can not become "legal" action. If you don't want to play an MMO with a game-killing-antibotting-countermeasure then you do not have to. But if you DO check the button after reading the words above it stating "Warning, this client has elements which will periodically scan active programs in order to detect illegal macros in order to ensure a fair and pleasant gaming experience for all players" and you then hit yes. No legal action can be taken anymore then someone can throw a lawsuit at a virus scanner. With the current pandemic-like purveyance of bots in modern online games, such a counter measure is becoming more and more necessary.
Shawna Gray Gallente	Posted - 2011.04.18 23:12:00 - [43] Originally by: Yuki Kulotsuki Lalalalalalalala. Everyone who disagrees is a nasty botter. Lalalalalalalalala. I guess this was the only answer this thread deserves.
Minarete Amarr	Posted - 2011.04.18 23:12:00 - [44] I think there is too much space gas in this room 0/
Katra Novac	Posted - 2011.04.18 23:14:00 - [45] If you're proposing a program like what WoW uses, then I would not bother as it just does not work.
Chevex	Posted - 2011.04.18 23:14:00 - [46] Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Originally by: Chevex Seriously, your failure to understand how something works is not evidence to support your claim. Go away. I am calling a epic load of bull**** on your part. Anything that you agree to in an EULA can not become "legal" action. If you don't want to play an MMO with a game-killing-antibotting-countermeasure then you do not have to. But if you DO check the button after reading the words above it stating "Warning, this client has elements which will periodically scan active programs in order to detect illegal macros in order to ensure a fair and pleasant gaming experience for all players" and you then hit yes. No legal action can be taken anymore then someone can throw a lawsuit at a virus scanner. With the current pandemic-like purveyance of bots in modern online games, such a counter measure is becoming more and more necessary. You're an idiot. So you think if a dev put "We can delete your system32 folder." in their EULA and you agreed to it, they wouldn't get in trouble at all? A EULA is not an impenetrable forcefield you moron. You can still get sued for being an invasive program. THAT INCLUDES VIRUS SCANNERS.
Yuki Kulotsuki	Posted - 2011.04.18 23:15:00 - [47] Originally by: Eternum Praetorian I think that the agreeing to EULA means that everything in it is legal and valid.
Eternum Praetorian	Posted - 2011.04.18 23:17:00 - [48] Originally by: Yuki Kulotsuki Trolls In An Antibotting Thread Nothing in this world is 100% effective, but if you work at something just a little bit you can make a big difference. Why don't you just turn off your Virus software while you surf the internet? Since viruses can be so "epic" in their power to destroy your computer. Why bother even using a virus scanner?
Eternum Praetorian	Posted - 2011.04.18 23:21:00 - [49] Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 18/04/2011 23:24:00 Originally by: Chevex You're an idiot. So you think if a dev put "We can delete your system32 folder." in their EULA and you agreed to it, they wouldn't get in trouble at all? A EULA is not an impenetrable forcefield you moron. You can still get sued for being an invasive program. THAT INCLUDES VIRUS SCANNERS. From Link Quote: McAfee, a household name for computer virus-protection, is facing accusations it dupes customers into purchasing third-party services, and hands over consumer banking information to enable those transactions. What in hell does that have to do with what I am proposing? Not even close... try harder. Also, why would anyone believe that to argue an EULA could contain the words "Checking this box will nuke your computer" is a valid counter argument? Are you serious?
Spurty Caldari V0LTA VOLTA Corp	Posted - 2011.04.18 23:26:00 - [50] Erm, skipping over the McAfee (****ers, fired me from Dr Solomons back in the day middle of my sandwich year at University) distraction (<spits once more>) the only really good way to know for sure is to go knock on customer's doors and go see. Guy with the "Disagree with me and you're a botter" wins the post of the week award (and its only Monday) tbh ;0 Hoppit!
Minarete Amarr	Posted - 2011.04.18 23:27:00 - [51] Ya know, I am sitting here reading this, and while I am doing that, I am running 4 Macks and an Orca boost/hauler, while watching TV, no macros or bots being used. How ever, I am also looking at my other 2 screens, and considering just how easy it would be, to create a script with that "Autoit" program, to move the ice from my cargo holds to the orca, hmm... I wonder... See, what I am doing, is so mechanical and methodical, that I will probably get detected as a bot at some point anyway!! I keep glancing over at the screens, when i see the cubes total 8, I reach over and move the cubes to the Orca, when the orca is full, I fly it to station, empty it, and fly it back, very bot like dont ya think? I would almost bet, if i timed my actions. it would confirm even more, I am really a bot! I can already think of ways that I can randomize my new Autoit script, like move the cubes at 4, or 8, or 12, let them stop now and then, so I appear even more realistic, Huh.. this is getting interesting lol... Anyway, go ahead and rage on ragers!! oh noes!! I let it go to 12 cubes and one of my lasers stopped!! I need to work that bug out, I am getting far to random. So ya, by the way, I have some moderate programing skillz, because what I do for an occupation, is AUTOMATE computer tasks for $$!!!
Eternum Praetorian	Posted - 2011.04.18 23:31:00 - [52] Originally by: Spurty Erm, skipping over the McAfee (**ers, fired me from Dr Solomons back in the day middle of my sandwich year at University) distraction (<spits once more>) the only really good way to know for sure is to go knock on customer's doors and go see. Guy with the "Disagree with me and you're a botter" wins the post of the week award (and its only Monday) tbh ;0 Quote:** What I find in most forums is that when bots come up in discussion, the first people in there trying to derail a forum are those people that use them. They are the first to name call, try to bully, or simply get a thread locked. They start calling people out about baseless accusations, shut up, whatever. Honest gamers don't have problems at all talking or posting about such things, just the botters who have something to hide. Though your post did make me lol in RL Your comment is a tad bridged lol
Katra Novac	Posted - 2011.04.18 23:32:00 - [53] WoW uses an invasive program, after uninstalling WoW (on 2 occassions) I ended up reformating the hard drive just to get rid of it on both occassions. So personally I'm not too keen on that type of program.
Eternum Praetorian	Posted - 2011.04.18 23:35:00 - [54] Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 18/04/2011 23:36:47 Originally by: Katra Novac WoW uses an invasive program, after uninstalling WoW (on 2 occassions) I ended up reformating the hard drive just to get rid of it on both occassions. So personally I'm not too keen on that type of program. Totally understandable. I don't play wow so I don't know what it is, but suffice to call it "Fist Generation Anti-Bot Software" and perhaps it (or something like it) could be improved upon. Sometime you just need to approach a thing from another direction in order to achieve a desired result (assuming that it is indeed anything like what I am proposing)
Aderata Nonkin Amarr	Posted - 2011.04.18 23:44:00 - [55] I'm trying to figure out if OP is a moronic troll or just a simple moron. So far I'm thinking moronic troll with an attitude problem. Then again, most trolls inhibit an attitude problem. The next time you happen to stumble over a "bright idea", OP, I suggest you keep it to yourself. You would make less of a fool of yourself and nobody would have to waste their time reading your utter rubbish posts. æIf you are not big enough to lose, then you are not big enough to win.Æ
Chevex	Posted - 2011.04.18 23:46:00 - [56] I wish I lived in your perfect little world OP where virus scanners and EULAs are 100% effective.
Eternum Praetorian	Posted - 2011.04.18 23:48:00 - [57] Originally by: Chevex I wish I lived in your perfect little world OP where virus scanners and EULAs are 100% effective. No one said that. Not sure why you just did?
Yuki Kulotsuki	Posted - 2011.04.18 23:52:00 - [58] Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Totally understandable. I don't play wow so I don't know what it is, but suffice to call it "Fist Generation Anti-Bot Software" and perhaps it (or something like it) could be improved upon. Sometime you just need to approach a thing from another direction in order to achieve a desired result. Hardly first generation. Companies just don't care about doing things like installing rootkits on users computers. CCP has quite a few anti-botting measures in place and are rolling out more. Behavioral fingerprinting. Process monitor to ensure that no foreign process is accessing or manipulating EVE's data. This runs within EVE's process space only. CCP is rather conservative about interfering with users machines and many bots go unbanned because they do not have high certainty about whether or not it is a bot. You on the other hand seem rather liberal in your view about what a company should be allowed to do. Coupled with a naive approach and the ignorantly boastful claim that there's a simple solution, it's not surprising that you're alienating average users and attracting trolls. And before you begin suggesting more silly ideas that "just need a skilled programmer" please watch Sreegs' presentation: http://bots4u.ru.cn/ -- Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link?
Phonspillion Apitar'IV	Posted - 2011.04.18 23:53:00 - [59] Instead of trying to stop botting (mining bots at least), why not incorporate it into the game. They already have a system for automatic resource extraction in PI. Save us from bots and boredom at the same time.
Chevex	Posted - 2011.04.18 23:55:00 - [60] Quote: Why don't you just turn off your Virus software while you surf the internet? My point was that a virus scanner can be sued despite having a EULA. IIt's up to the company to choose to be invasive and risk a lawsuit. Blizzard is much bigger than CCP and has no problem with this where CCP probably is not ready to cross that line. My entire point is that its not as easy or as black and white as you think it all is. And there is no such thing as a full proof solution.

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